[15:00] <ogra_> #startmeeting
[15:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  2 15:00:06 2012 UTC.  The chair is ogra_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:00] <ogra_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120202
[15:00] <ogra_> bah
[15:00] <ogra_> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120202
[15:00]  * davidm waves at ogra_ 
[15:00] <ogra_> hmm, wh doesnt the bot take my link ...
[15:00] <ogra_> anyway
[15:00] <ogra_> everyone here ?
[15:01]  * ogra_ sees them roll in :)
[15:01] <janimo> :)
[15:01] <janimo> I initially logged in to ubuntu-meeting on another server finding the room empty
[15:01] <ogra_> heh
[15:01] <ogra_> convenient
[15:01] <ogra_> hey GrueMaster
[15:02]  * GrueMaster waves
[15:02] <ogra_> so lets get rolling ... mind you my Y key is apparently broken, dont laugh if i type weird things :)
[15:02] <davidm> ogra_, do you need to use the # and not[?
[15:02] <ogra_> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120202
[15:02] <ogra_> nope :)
[15:02] <davidm> Interesting
[15:02] <ogra_> not that important
[15:03] <ogra_> so NCommander isnt around, i'll run the meeting ....
[15:03] <ogra_> Standing Items ...
[15:03] <ogra_> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
[15:03]  * ogra_ waits for GrueMaster running gag ...
[15:04] <GrueMaster> sorry, I was busy testing all the images and gaging on my coffee.
[15:04] <ogra_> we're pretty well under tthe trend line ! (if it would be angled correctly)
[15:05] <ogra_> and ppisati apparently found a fix for the blocker of the "no initrd" spec ... he's my hero of the week !
[15:05] <infinity> Neat.
[15:05] <ppisati> ogra_: wait until you try it out... :)
[15:05] <ogra_> indeed :)
[15:05] <infinity> Of course, unblocking it creates work. ;)
[15:06] <ogra_> mahmoh seems pretty behind (25 WIs, only 2 done) shoudl we ask him if he needs help ?
[15:06] <GrueMaster> I ask every week.
[15:06] <ogra_> (likely due to NCommander assigning the world to him)
[15:06] <ogra_> k
[15:07] <ogra_> nothing else seems to stick out badly atm ...
[15:07] <ogra_> moving on ....
[15:07] <ogra_> [topic] == ARM Server Status (NCommander) ==
[15:07] <ogra_> anyone here who can report about that ?
[15:08]  * ogra_ can say that we have approval to get the unsupported kernel to main to fix our d-i issues 
[15:08] <GrueMaster> Image automation is currently stuck due to no initrd generated during install.
[15:08] <ogra_> but we dont have a kernel package yet
[15:08] <GrueMaster> Not an official kernel, no.
[15:09] <ppisati> no initrd generated during install?
[15:09] <ogra_> f-k-i issue
[15:09] <infinity> If we have approval to get it in main, we can tidy up dannf's and JFDI.
[15:09] <GrueMaster> ppisati: Only on the server platform.
[15:09] <ogra_> infinity, feel free if you dont have anything else to do ...
[15:09] <GrueMaster> Not an f-k-i issue.  I have tested it, it does the right thing.
[15:09] <infinity> ogra_: I have lots else to do, but this is important enough to make time.
[15:09] <ogra_> cooloney will do it otherwise ... once he returns from new year drinking :)
[15:10] <ogra_> i know its on his TODO
[15:10] <infinity> ogra_: Since getting the kernel in will cascade into massaging d-i and other bits.
[15:10] <ogra_> right
[15:10] <ogra_> GrueMaster, well, then kernel package postinst ... one for these things :)
[15:10] <GrueMaster> NCommander had a test kernel working based on 3.0 with a minimized patch.  Whittled down the 500k lines to ~15k.
[15:10]  * ahs3 pokes dannf on another channel...and volunteers his time to help with the kernel :)...
[15:11] <infinity> ahs3: That works too.
[15:11] <ogra_> davidm, do you know when cooloney returns ? does it make sense to have infinity look at the kernel ?
[15:11] <ogra_> ah, k
[15:11] <infinity> If dannf can tidy up a kernel package, I'll do the d-i bits.
[15:11] <infinity> And we'll be golden.
[15:11] <ogra_> i guess any preparation work cooloney can get is fine
[15:11] <ogra_> ok
[15:11] <ahs3> infinity: excellent
[15:11] <davidm> Next mondya
[15:12] <infinity> And cooloney can worry about 3.2, which is what he should be doing. :P
[15:12] <ogra_> [action] dannf to tidy up a kernel package
[15:12] <meetingology> ACTION: dannf to tidy up a kernel package
[15:12] <ogra_> [action] infinity to pull said kernel package into d-i
[15:12] <meetingology> ACTION: infinity to pull said kernel package into d-i
[15:12] <infinity> Waste of his time to package old kernels anyway.
[15:12] <ogra_> ok, anything else ?
[15:13] <ogra_> movinmg on then
[15:13] <ogra_> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
[15:13] <ppisati> nothing exciting: omap4 1405.7 is finally out
[15:14] <ppisati> and there's a new round of SRUs
[15:14] <GrueMaster> Yea, good timing on that.  :P
[15:14] <ppisati> aprt from that, yesterday i palyed with UUID (aand with GPT + UUID it works)
[15:14] <ogra_> \o/
[15:14] <ppisati> and now i've some stuff in the queue for audio (both omap3 and omap4)
[15:15] <ppisati> that's all from me
[15:15] <ogra_> well, TI says there are fixes in the new tree
[15:15] <ogra_> for omap4 at least
[15:15] <ppisati> ogra_: right, i'll have to try them
[15:15] <infinity> I need to stop getting distracted from other work and test jcrigby's mx5 kernels.
[15:15] <ppisati> btw, audio on beagle has never worked, right?
[15:15] <infinity> s/from/by/
[15:15] <ogra_> ++
[15:15] <GrueMaster> Not since the kernel was from main.
[15:16] <ogra_> infinity, doesnt janimo also have the mx5 ?
[15:16] <ppisati> GrueMaster: k
[15:16] <infinity> ogra_: We all do, don't we?
[15:16] <ogra_> janimo, could you take over that test ?
[15:16] <infinity> janimo: If you have time... What he said.
[15:16] <ogra_> infinity, i dont
[15:16] <GrueMaster> Actually, I should test the mx5 kernel, as I have both old & new platforms.
[15:17]  * ogra_ still recovers from babbages ... still needs another CPU iteration before i can touchj FSL HW again ;)
[15:17] <janimo> I can run the mx5 tests sure
[15:17] <infinity> GrueMaster: You were busy alphaing, which was why I didn't ask earlier.  ;)
[15:17] <janimo> it just seemed everyone was already on the new mx5 kernels :)
[15:17] <ogra_> [action] janimo or GrueMaster to test the mx5 kernel from jcrigby
[15:17] <meetingology> ACTION: janimo or GrueMaster to test the mx5 kernel from jcrigby
[15:17] <GrueMaster> Which reminds me, A2 will not run on the new mx53 Quickstart board (Rev R).
[15:18] <infinity> janimo: Err, they were?
[15:18] <ogra_> anthing else ?
[15:18]  * ogra_ counts to three
[15:18] <janimo> infinity, well you and GrueMaster have been talking about the ppa since over a week IIRC
[15:18] <ogra_> moving on ...
[15:18] <ogra_> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:18] <GrueMaster> Talk is easy.  :P
[15:18] <janimo> GrueMaster, mine is rev F so hopefully is still fine. It was last week anyway
[15:19] <ogra_> anyone ?
[15:19] <janimo> the only one I tried fixing is the qtwebkit
[15:19]  * ogra_ didnt look at ftbfs at all this week
[15:19] <infinity> gcl and acl2 got off the FTBFS list this week.  A couple other minor bits and bobs.
[15:19] <ogra_> ay
[15:19] <janimo> but has the same memory exhausted error on my panda as in the buildd
[15:19] <ogra_> yay even
[15:19] <ogra_> bah
[15:19] <infinity> I need to look more deeply into the "mmap" issue, which has nothing at all to do with kernel bugs. :P
[15:19] <janimo> with 8G of swap even
[15:20] <ogra_> use 16 :P
[15:20] <infinity> I'm fairly sure binutils is leaking.
[15:20] <ppisati> well, if your process need more than 3GB, you are screwed
[15:20] <infinity> More swap won't help.
[15:20] <ppisati> you can add as much swap as you want, but it's still 32bits
[15:20]  * ogra_ wasnt serious
[15:20] <ppisati> and with the 3/1 split
[15:20] <ppisati> 3GB is for userspace
[15:20] <infinity> Anyhow, powerpc is a 2/2 split, and it doesn't fail in the same places.
[15:21] <infinity> binutils is pretty clearly doing something Very Bad on ARM.
[15:21] <ppisati> ok
[15:21] <infinity> (ppc32 having a 2/2 split is a bug, mind you, which I should file...)
[15:21] <GrueMaster> Someone also should look at bug 925246.  Only fails (repeatedly) on armhf panda.
[15:21] <ogra_> so its all doko's fault anyway
[15:21] <ppisati> infinity: wait
[15:21] <ppisati> infinity: did you have the same bug with 1405 too?
[15:22] <ppisati> s/did/do/
[15:22] <infinity> ppisati: 3.2.0-1405-omap4 <-- Still exists on that kernel.
[15:22] <ppisati> infinity: ok
[15:22] <infinity> ppisati: Err, by "bug", we mean binutils exhausting RAM.  The 2/2 -> 3/1 thing is fixed.
[15:22] <ppisati> infinity: i see
[15:23] <infinity> So, binutils just eats 3G instead of 2G now. :P
[15:23] <infinity> Not really progress.
[15:23] <ppisati> hungry toolchain :)
[15:23] <infinity> Anyhow.  Needs more investigation and round tuits.
[15:24] <ogra_> right
[15:24] <infinity> I might end up delaying other things I'm doing to just make it happen, since it's now causing failures in main.
[15:24] <GrueMaster> heh.
[15:24] <ppisati> infinity: is there a way to reproduce it?
[15:24] <infinity> ppisati: Build qtwebkit-source or haskell-src-exts.
[15:24] <infinity> ppisati: Wait patiently.
[15:24] <ppisati> infinity: how long does it take?
[15:24] <ogra_> reall patiently
[15:24] <infinity> ppisati: And once you have a failed tree, you can just re-run the last line over and over. :P
[15:25] <janimo> infinity, is this a bug acked by Linaro too?
[15:25] <infinity> ppisati: It takes ~4h to fail the first time, after that, it's maybe 10m to fail the link over and over?
[15:25] <janimo> and the last line failing takes an hour or more IIRC :)
[15:25] <ogra_> we can ask rsalveti when he's up :)
[15:25] <infinity> janimo: Nah, it's nowhere near an hour, if you're swapping to disk like a sane person.
[15:26] <janimo> infinity, USB external disk yes. I remember going away and finding Qt still linking after a loong time
[15:26] <janimo> will time it, I stil have the tree around I think
[15:26]  * infinity times it right now.
[15:27] <infinity> Anyhow.
[15:27] <infinity> Moving on?
[15:27] <ogra_> yep, wanted to wait until you guys are done :)
[15:27] <janimo> :)
[15:27] <infinity> janimo: Oh, and no, I haven't gotten around to filing a bug and involving Linaro, because "binutils sucks" is more of a guess than something I've confirmed, so far.
[15:28] <janimo> ah ok
[15:28] <ogra_> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:28] <ogra_> err
[15:28] <ogra_> sorry
[15:28] <infinity> This seems familiar.
[15:28] <ogra_> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:29] <ogra_> nothing to report, we're ready for A2
[15:29] <ogra_> anyone ... anything ?
[15:29] <ogra_> oh, one thing
[15:29] <infinity> Nope.
[15:29] <GrueMaster> All images tested and no major show stoppers.
[15:29] <infinity> Yup?
[15:29] <ogra_> doesn anyone know who enabled d-i server images ?
[15:29] <GrueMaster> ???
[15:29] <infinity> Looking at /etc/default-arches, they've been enabled for ages.
[15:30] <ogra_> we seem to have built normal alternate server dailies for a while
[15:30] <infinity> And no one noticed.
[15:30] <ogra_> weird
[15:30] <infinity> Or, people noticed, but no one cared. :P
[15:30] <ogra_> yeah ...
[15:30] <GrueMaster> I downloaded one, will look at it later today.
[15:30] <infinity> I think it's come up before, and we kept forgetting to turn them off.
[15:30] <janimo> disable them and start building omap4 live images in the same time slot :D
[15:30] <infinity> janimo: Uhh.
[15:30] <infinity> janimo: They build in about 3 minutes.
[15:30] <ogra_> well, once the new kernel is around we want them, n o ?
[15:31] <infinity> janimo: Not really the same "time slot". ;)
[15:31] <janimo> well, when I mean time slot, I mean ..... instead :D
[15:31] <GrueMaster> We will want them for the actual server platforms, yes.
[15:31] <ogra_> iirc the target image for that kernel is a server alternate
[15:31] <ogra_> right, so lets just keep them running
[15:31]  * rsalveti waves
[15:31] <ogra_> its not that its a big waste
[15:31] <infinity> ogra_: Yeah, we can scrub default-arches and build for just that subarch.
[15:31] <rsalveti> sorry, 2 meetings at the same time :-)
[15:32] <ogra_> rsalveti, take your time, ou're not up yet :)
[15:32] <ogra_> anything else about images ?
[15:32]  * ogra_ moves on then 
[15:32] <GrueMaster> On other images, I propose turning off armel on some platforms (omap).
[15:32] <ogra_> that should wait until after FF
[15:33] <ogra_> since we havent actually made the decision yet
[15:33] <ogra_> davidm, opinions ?
[15:33] <davidm> wait until after FF
[15:34] <ogra_> k
[15:34] <ogra_> moving on
[15:34] <davidm> we need to evaluate el vs hf and then shutdown images in the one we are not going to use
[15:34] <ogra_> right, thats what i thought
[15:34] <ogra_> though tobin is drowning in images atm
[15:34] <davidm> from where I'm sitting hf is looking better and better every day
[15:34] <ogra_> yep
[15:35] <ogra_> i also think hf it is :)
[15:35] <davidm> understood, only another week
[15:35] <ogra_> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
[15:36] <GrueMaster> Lots of milestone testing this week.  All images on all platforms tested.  Minor bugs found, some more annoyances than anything.
[15:36] <infinity> (FF is in two weeks, BTW, not one..)
[15:36] <GrueMaster> No show stopper bugs.
[15:36] <GrueMaster> Also started testing SRU kernel updates (excellent timing).
[15:36] <ogra_> FF is my b-day :)
[15:37]  * ogra_ will tr to get the oem-config preseeding fixed around FF btw
[15:37]  * GrueMaster can't imagine any of ogra_'s features freezing, but it is cold in the EU.
[15:37] <ogra_> i have planned a timeslot for it
[15:37] <ogra_> yeah, -10 °C....
[15:38] <ogra_> not even the cats want to go out
[15:38] <GrueMaster> Good.  That will greatly help automate smoke testing images.
[15:38] <ogra_> anything else apart the weather ?
[15:38]  * ogra_ moves on ...
[15:38] <ogra_> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
[15:39]  * rsalveti waves again :-)
[15:39] <ogra_> :)
[15:39] <rsalveti> https://launchpad.net/linaro-dev-platform/+milestone/12.02
[15:39] <rsalveti> our planning for this cycle
[15:39] <rsalveti> mostly trying to get things in place, and working on improving the lava usage
[15:39] <rsalveti> for unity, also making sure it's always working
[15:39] <rsalveti> by enabling it by default at our images
[15:39] <ogra_> how about the compiz bits ?
[15:40] <rsalveti> that still something we need to sort out next week
[15:40] <ogra_> we would like them in the archive
[15:40] <rsalveti> at linaro connect
[15:40] <ogra_> k
[15:40] <infinity> rsalveti: Any interest in looking at the binutils memory exhaustion thing? ;)
[15:40] <rsalveti> who is going to connect?
[15:40] <infinity> o/
[15:40] <rsalveti> infinity: bug? :-)
[15:40] <infinity> David and I, I believe.
[15:40] <ogra_> infinity, oh, you go !
[15:40] <infinity> rsalveti: Unfiled so far, was investigating.
[15:40] <ogra_> awesome !
[15:40] <rsalveti> great
[15:40] <infinity> rsalveti: But it's the one people were calling a kernel "mmap" bug until we fixed the kernel and it wasn't. :P
[15:41] <rsalveti> infinity: please check our sessions at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/linaro-ubuntu?searchtext=linaro-platforms-q112
[15:41] <rsalveti> got it :-)
[15:41] <ogra_> is linaro in any way intrested in LibO ?
[15:41] <ogra_> seems NCommander is out for another few days and will then be swamped in ubuntu-server
[15:41] <infinity> rsalveti: Steve and markos already subscribed me to a fair few things, I think, but I'll poke.
[15:41] <ogra_> and we would like to get it fixed
[15:42] <infinity> ogra_: Does NCommander have a working tree he can hand off to someone else?
[15:42] <janimo> ogra_, if NCommander is swamped I can continue with LibO
[15:42] <ogra_> infinity, i have *no* clue at all
[15:42] <ogra_> janimo, that would surely help !
[15:42] <ogra_> [action] janimo to look into LibO
[15:42] <meetingology> ACTION: janimo to look into LibO
[15:42] <davidm> janimo, yes please grab Lib0
[15:42] <janimo> ok
[15:42] <rsalveti> great :-)
[15:43] <GrueMaster> I have his panda he was using to build LibO on.
[15:43] <rsalveti> we can try to have a look at that
[15:43] <rsalveti> it's important for armhf anyway
[15:43] <ogra_> yeah
[15:43] <GrueMaster> janimo: I'll ping you after the meeting with the ipv6 info.
[15:43] <janimo> GrueMaster, I'll ping you once I am at a point that I need his changes, thanks
[15:43] <rsalveti> that's all from my side
[15:43] <janimo> GrueMaster, ok
[15:43] <ogra_> its still a lot time until release... but would be good to finally fix it
[15:43] <rsalveti> sorry, also at another meeting at the phone
[15:43] <rsalveti> yeah
[15:43]  * ogra_ moves on 
[15:43] <ogra_> [topic] AOB
[15:43] <infinity> Yeah, plenty of time to release, but I want our armel/armhf decision at feature freeze to be as informed as it can be.
[15:44] <ogra_> anyone ?
[15:44] <ogra_> anything ?
[15:44] <ogra_> seems not ...
[15:45] <ogra_> RAISE YOUR HAND NOW OR STAY SILENT !
[15:45] <ogra_> going once
[15:45] <ogra_> twice
[15:45] <ogra_> adjourned
[15:45] <ogra_> #endmeeting
[15:45] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  2 15:45:22 2012 UTC.
[15:45] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-02-15.00.moin.txt
[17:01] <sabdfl> hello all
[17:02] <akgraner> hey sabdfl
[17:03] <dholbach> hey
[17:03] <beuno> o/
[17:04] <dholbach> #startmeeting
[17:04] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  2 17:04:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:04] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:04] <dholbach> so, I just had a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:04] <pleia2> o/
[17:04] <dholbach> and it seems we have a chat with the DMB today :)
[17:04] <czajkowski> Aloha
[17:05] <dholbach> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, tumbleweed, stgraber: anyone of you around?
[17:05] <micahg> yes
[17:05] <tumbleweed> dholbach: hi
[17:05] <Laney> OH that is TODAY!
[17:05] <YokoZar> excellent
[17:05]  * tumbleweed wa just about to run off :P
[17:05] <dholbach> #topic Meeting the Developer Membership Board
[17:05] <dholbach> how are all of you doing?
[17:06] <Laney> rocking
[17:06] <tumbleweed> today just took a bad turn, personally, an hour ago, but I've been typing hard at a UDW session for an hour, so the adrenaline is there :P
[17:06]  * dholbach hugs tumbleweed :)
[17:06] <tumbleweed> dmb is looking good, I think
[17:06] <dholbach> how do you generally feel is the DMB doing?
[17:07] <dholbach> always on top of things? no backlog building up?
[17:07] <Laney> I think we get by pretty well these days
[17:07] <Laney> we haven't missed a meeting in ages
[17:07]  * stgraber waves
[17:08] <dholbach> I was also under the impression that meetings are now quite regularly - which is great
[17:08]  * Iowan is FC rep - si 2b late
[17:09] <tumbleweed> we've also been talking about things to do to improve the application process
[17:09] <tumbleweed> maybe some self-test questions to let you know if you're ready, but nothing much happening theree atm...
[17:09] <czajkowski> tumbleweed: great to hear
[17:09] <dholbach> tumbleweed, so new applicants have a better idea if they should apply or not?
[17:10] <tumbleweed> dholbach: yeah, and also so they know what we expect all ubuntu developers to do
[17:10] <tumbleweed> (i.e. subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce, understand freezes)
[17:10] <tumbleweed> *e.g.
[17:10] <czajkowski> tumbleweed: do you feel the number of DMB members is enough ?
[17:10] <dholbach> that might indeed work
[17:11] <sabdfl> tumbleweed, aching wrists?
[17:11] <tumbleweed> czajkowski: we've been quorate for the last few months, so yes
[17:11] <tumbleweed> although I did come in as a standin for a missing persia :/
[17:11] <dholbach> the developer advisory team I set up with huats recently started mailing people who had done a lot of great work to offer a bit of support - if we can get any feedback, we could share it with you
[17:11] <czajkowski> tumbleweed: great to hear, that is sometimes an issue for boards. glad the dmb is ok
[17:11] <YokoZar> tumbleweed: Is there anyone (or a lot of anyone)'s that you feel should have been developers long ago but aren't now for some reason?
[17:11] <tumbleweed> sabdfl: hah, actually a death in the family, but nm that right now :)
[17:12] <dholbach> sorry to hear that :-(
[17:12] <Laney> :-(
[17:12] <tumbleweed> YokoZar: hopefully most developers tell people when they should apply
[17:12] <tumbleweed> we had to push jtaylor for months :P
[17:13]  * YokoZar recalls it was debian's developer-membership rigidity that drew him to Ubuntu to begin with, whereas at Ubuntu he was directly asked to join...
[17:13] <dholbach> yes, I hope the d-a-t can help identify cases like that a bit earlier going forward :)
[17:13] <tumbleweed> YokoZar: yeah, ubuntu's open community was a big reason I got drawn in
[17:13] <tumbleweed> (I hardly even run it on any machines...)
[17:14] <dholbach> how much of your work do you feel is directly related to dealing with applications? is there many other things which need discussion or organisation as well?
[17:14] <YokoZar> tumbleweed: That interests me greatly :)  I'm wondering if the next me is out there and if we're doing everything we can to find him and tell him "Hey, this is great, not only will I sponsor your packages but I want you to go through this super easy process and upload them yourself."
[17:15] <tumbleweed> dholbach: hrm, maybe 5-15 mins of each meeting
[17:15] <Laney> I would hope that Debian sponsors are encouraging people to go through NM when they are ready too. Although granted it is a lot more in depth.
[17:16] <tumbleweed> and then there is out-of-meeting stuff, micahg has been doing lots of packageset team structure cleanup
[17:16] <Laney> Also we should discuss whether Ubuntu Contributing Developer is worthwhile.
[17:16] <micahg> Laney: did you mean here or in general?
[17:17] <dholbach> Laney, as far as I recall a lot of RMBs were very happy that there was a board out there which could review development contributions and make a better informed decision about it
[17:17] <Laney> the CC are probably interested in it.
[17:17] <micahg> well, I think it's worthwhile, but should be used sparingly for those who just need to keep the safety net
[17:18] <Laney> yeah, well the problem is we hardly ever get applicants from it and people say that they find it confusing
[17:18] <Laney> s/from/for/
[17:18] <tumbleweed> yes, it probably does sit as an unecessary extra step for many people
[17:18]  * tumbleweed encourages people to bypass it when I think they are ready
[17:18] <micahg> it shouldn't be a step for most people, maybe I can give editing the wiki a shot to make that more clear
[17:19] <dholbach> do you get many applicants for membership?
[17:19] <Laney> I don't get the impression that new developers are bothered about it
[17:19] <Laney> no
[17:19] <tumbleweed> it's been quiet recently
[17:19] <Laney> not that we get many new MOTU at all though
[17:20] <dholbach> I guess there's still a few motu work items from a blueprint :)
[17:20] <Laney> always
[17:20] <tumbleweed> eep
[17:20] <dholbach> which wouldn't instantly solve the problem.... but probably invite some folks again
[17:20] <tumbleweed> yeah, always need more motu
[17:20] <micahg> well, 2 in the last 2 months with another most likely after precise releases
[17:21] <dholbach> is there anything you feel which should be really fixed in the DMB? you all seem to be generally quite happy with how the board is running
[17:21] <czajkowski> Also is there anything the CC can help the DMB with ?
[17:21] <Laney> still, I think I have come to the opinion that it's probably not worth having UCD as a Separate Thing
[17:22]  * tumbleweed had entirely forgotten that this meeting was coming so, nothing on my mind
[17:22] <YokoZar> micahg: Regarding clarifying the wiki, thank you muchly
[17:23] <micahg> Laney: I don't think people should be forced to get upload rights, if someone wants to help, but without getting upload rights, we should be able to recognize that
[17:23] <Laney> when has that ever happened?
[17:24] <tumbleweed> on the other side of the coin, the membership requirements can make it harder for us to give PPU
[17:24] <dholbach> Laney, maybe it'd be an idea to write a blog post explaining what UCD was designed to be and then ask for comments from everyone to get an idea of how many folks would like to go through the process - maybe it's not sufficiently advertised or explained - or maybe there's no interested in it at all
[17:24] <Laney> it creates a lot of confusion for a theoretical possibility that could be handled in some other way (RMBs)
[17:24] <Laney> I've posted to -devel about it before and didn't really see anyone who strongly cares about it
[17:24] <micahg> well, I'm going to try to clear up the confusion on the wiki
[17:25] <Laney> if we really want it just say "We can also award membership without upload rights if you meet the [[general guidelines]]"
[17:25] <Laney> (This is called being a Contributing Developer).
[17:25] <Laney> or something.
[17:26] <dholbach> yeah, that sounds reasonable
[17:26] <tumbleweed> de-emphisising it should remove most of the issues there
[17:26] <Laney> right, bury it
[17:26] <dholbach> anything else on your list of pressing concerns? :)
[17:27] <Laney> if this person ever comes along then someone can tell them that the possibility exists
[17:27] <Laney> well, just the continued absence of persia, but that's not just us :'(
[17:27] <tumbleweed> I seem to recall someone where PPU was clearly grantable, but the person hadn't done much to deserve membership, yet
[17:27] <tumbleweed> but I can't remember offhand
[17:28] <Laney> not sure anyone is unhappy with upload rights implying membership in all cases, even when we perhaps wouldn't grant membership separately
[17:28] <Laney> i'm quite relaxed about that tbh
[17:29] <YokoZar> Yeah that seems reasonable
[17:29] <tumbleweed> yeah, it's not a big issue
[17:29] <dholbach> I didn't run into cases where it would have concerned me
[17:29] <Laney> the CC is aware that all developers are added to ~ubuntu-dev, and that that is in ~ubuntumembers
[17:29] <dholbach> usually there's quite a bit of work involved into understanding the process, learning about all the bits involved, where work is happening, but you can't just see it yet
[17:29] <dholbach> Laney, I am :)
[17:29] <Laney> i am glad that this advisory team effort is happening
[17:30] <Laney> it felt like a bit of an expansion too far to expect the dmb to be responsible for recruitment as well as assessment
[17:30] <dholbach> yes, Christophe and I are going to announce it some time next week and hopefully get a few new contributors to help us out
[17:30] <dholbach> I agree
[17:30] <dholbach> any more questions from the CC?
[17:31] <dholbach> or anything from the DMB members where CC members could help with?
[17:31] <tumbleweed> nope, pub quiz time for me!
[17:31] <micahg> no, I think in the past when we've needed the CC, they've been responsive
[17:32] <dholbach> the only thing on my list is: take a look at the motu blueprint again :)
[17:32] <Laney> which?
[17:33] <dholbach> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-motu-bof
[17:34] <dholbach> but that's unrelated to the general DMB + CC meet-up
[17:34] <dholbach> czajkowski, beuno, Gwaihir, YokoZar, pleia2, akgraner: any more questions from you?
[17:34] <pleia2> no, thanks for coming :)
[17:35] <beuno> nope, all sounds great
[17:35] <akgraner> none from me - thanks for all the information
[17:35] <YokoZar> Thanks for coming :)
[17:35] <Gwaihir> nope, all looks good
[17:35] <czajkowski> no thank it's been really intersting to leanr what ye folks do
[17:35] <dholbach> thanks a lot - and thanks for doing a great job on the DMB!
[17:35] <dholbach> great
[17:36] <dholbach> as far as I can see there's nothing else on the Agenda
[17:36] <dholbach> #topic Other business?
[17:36] <akgraner> Teams page clean-up and CoC 2.0
[17:37] <dholbach> aha!
[17:37] <dholbach> good points
[17:37] <dholbach> #topic Teams page
[17:37] <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
[17:37] <dholbach> akgraner, want to give an update?
[17:37] <akgraner> sure  - so the link pleia2 just gave is out of date
[17:38] <akgraner> so I started a drafts page #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/draft/Teams
[17:39] <akgraner> I added many of the Canonical lead teams based on the feedback from UDS about people wanting to know how to get in contact with various teams and who lead those teams
[17:39] <YokoZar> Oh, I had a quick update ~ voting software to discuss as well
[17:39] <akgraner> I also found that reporter, approved and approved date didn't mean much to people so I am changing that as well
[17:40] <akgraner> I should have it finished by Saturday for everyone to review and if approved we can change it out and start recommending it again
[17:40] <akgraner> thoughts?
[17:40] <dholbach> maybe a call for review via blog?
[17:41] <dholbach> so folks who never updated their team record can just go ahead and do it?
[17:41] <akgraner> dholbach, I was going to so that once I had the page cleaned up
[17:41] <dholbach> ah, cool
[17:41] <dholbach> sounds good to me then
[17:41] <pleia2> long term, do we have a plan to maintain this?
[17:42] <akgraner> I think we should - someone has to take ownership of it
[17:42] <dholbach> personally I think it'd be good if the job wasn't tied to us specifically :)
[17:42] <dholbach> and teams would just go and update their date
[17:42] <akgraner> but who then?
[17:42] <dholbach> even if it would require us to do some annual poking
[17:42] <akgraner> dholbach, um that didn't work in the past
[17:43] <Gwaihir> just an idea: isn't the IRC column redundant? Since there is no real information about what is the channel, maybe rely only on the team's page?
[17:43] <akgraner> that's how it got this out of date - people add stuff and never go back and look at it
[17:43] <akgraner> it's meant to be a quick level over view
[17:43] <akgraner> maybe that's all they want what channel can this team be found in without going to the team page
[17:44] <akgraner> one click to find all the relative information is what I was thinkingg
[17:44] <akgraner> thinking
[17:44] <Gwaihir> yep, but there is no real channel name, adding the channel name maybe?
[17:44] <akgraner> I haven't added any of the new column information those are just place holders right now
[17:45] <Gwaihir> got it
[17:45] <akgraner> :-)
[17:45] <dholbach> if there's people who don't mind looking after it every now and then, then that's great
[17:46] <dholbach> maybe we should continue the discussion via mail?
[17:46] <akgraner> fine with me
[17:46] <akgraner> :-)
[17:46] <dholbach> excellent
[17:46] <dholbach> #topic CoC 2.0
[17:47] <dholbach> so, a few changes have been introduced in the ubuntu-codeofconduct branch recently and it was suggested to merge the leadership coc into the CoC
[17:47] <dholbach> to give it a bit more publicity
[17:47] <dholbach> AFAIK akgraner (was it you?) put up a google doc already
[17:47] <akgraner> so I added the LCoC and the CoC on one document  - I've made some changes to it - but others still need to take a look
[17:47] <dholbach> I could take an action to massage the changes into the branch as a merge proposal, so we can all take a look at it together again
[17:48] <dholbach> and then make the decision to get it into LP, the website and all the other places if we all agree
[17:48] <akgraner> it still reads like 2 separate documents
[17:48] <YokoZar> legit
[17:49] <akgraner> and maybe that's ok  - we just need a better lead into the LCoC part of it - I changed a little of it to make it flow but it still needs some more work
[17:50] <dholbach> ok, I'll take the action to mergeproposalify it, so we can review it together
[17:50] <beuno> where is the doc?
[17:50] <dholbach> there was a link in one of the emails
[17:50] <dholbach> I can dig it out and post an MP tomorrow
[17:52] <beuno> cool
[17:52] <akgraner> thanks dholbach
[17:52] <dholbach> ok, rocking
[17:52] <dholbach> moving on
[17:52] <dholbach> #topic voting software
[17:52] <dholbach> YokoZar, your stage
[17:52] <YokoZar> So, my volunteer who maybe might write us usable voting software messaged me the other day
[17:52] <YokoZar> He envisions a bit of a larger project, but wanted to cover our use case, and wanted to know if something based on Google App Engine is ok
[17:53] <YokoZar> Since we already use an offsite service (CIVS) I don't think it's any worse
[17:53]  * dholbach has no opinion
[17:53] <dholbach> sabdfl, do you have anything to say about the above?
[17:53] <beuno> yeah, it's not portable, which sucks a bit
[17:53] <beuno> but not worst, I agree
[17:54] <YokoZar> There's an attempt at a free lower-featured app engine replacement we could run ourselves I think, and his software may work on that (he mentioned it)
[17:54] <dholbach> would it present us with a CIVS-like service which is going to work with Launchpad Teams (OpenID teams support)?
[17:55] <YokoZar> That was basically my only request, so presumably ;)
[17:56] <dholbach> if you need more opinions on the google app engine criterion, best just bring it up with the rest of the CC in an email
[17:56] <dholbach> so we can see if there's more opinions
[17:56] <YokoZar> Yeah fair enough
[17:56] <YokoZar> Ok that's that
[17:56] <dholbach> Anything else?
[17:57] <dholbach> #topic Administrativa
[17:57] <dholbach> I guess we should decide on next chair, who does the wiki update and the like
[17:57] <dholbach> maybe we should also fire up an etherpad and write the minutes together
[17:57] <dholbach> that way we all get to go in 2-3 minutes :)
[17:58] <dholbach> YokoZar, beuno, akgraner, pleia2, Gwaihir: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/zCK129zmpU :)
[17:58]  * akgraner looks
[17:59] <akgraner> dholbach, doesn't meetingology give you all the bits once the meeting ends?
[17:59] <akgraner> and you can just copy and paste?
[17:59] <pleia2> only if you diligently use #info for every important thing ;)
[17:59] <akgraner> ahhh
[17:59] <akgraner> ok nm me :-)
[17:59] <dholbach> hum, I guess we better get using #info the next times then
[18:01] <dholbach> ok, if we're done with the minutes, I'm happy to update the wiki - who's the next chair?
[18:01] <akgraner> I can't chair but I'll be happy to help with admin stuff once the meetings end
[18:02] <dholbach> ok, let's find the chair next time - we always found somebody
[18:02] <dholbach> akgraner, I'll update the team report - can you do the next meeting time and everything?
[18:02] <akgraner> sure can
[18:02] <dholbach> excellent
[18:02] <dholbach> thanks everyone!
[18:03] <dholbach> #endmeeting
[18:03] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  2 18:03:00 2012 UTC.
[18:03] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-02-17.04.moin.txt
[18:03] <beuno> o/