[00:02] Apparently [00:02] 3 million downloads per day from appworld now [00:03] Not as shabby as the stats once were [00:06] snap-l: Windows Phone 7 [00:30] jrwren: Hell no [00:34] He said that just to troll =P [00:34] * tjagoda writes off WIndows phone like other people write off Blackberry [01:21] i write off win phone too. [01:21] but if iphone is a no, and android is a no... I think winphone is 3rd. [01:21] i sure as hell wouldn't want a BB [01:26] jrwren: I want to map() over a list and if any returns false come back with a single false value, what is the name of the thing I'm thinking of? [01:27] but if none are false you want the result to be the list of newly built things? [01:27] no, basically True [01:27] have a list of checks, want to process and see if anything comes up false else we're golden [01:27] i only know the .net terminology :( [01:28] All() [01:28] I think I'll just do it via reduce() and go there [01:28] jrwren: ah, that makes sense [01:28] it is a reduce [01:28] so that is a good place to go [01:28] yea, don't think YUI has a built in for it [01:28] prolly not [01:29] jrwren: yea, the Y.Array stuff has some "truthy" checks but it's more "process until you get a non-truthy then quit procoessing" [01:40] ok, well this is depressing: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/03/the-fireplace-delusion-a-metaphor-for-religious-belief.html [01:47] rick_h: Yep, the human race has a lot of gree grees [01:47] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grigri [01:52] its a strawman. [01:52] "obvious harm to our health and environment" is a load of b.s. [01:52] what harm to either of those? [01:52] show me hte science for that. [01:52] there is none. [01:53] but it is nice to hear an athiest talking about how religeous athiests can be. [01:56] jrwren: Well, there is something to be said for not maintaining something burning in your house [01:56] why? [01:56] the gas at my stove burns [01:56] and in my furnace [01:56] i maintain them both regularly [01:57] the writer is an asshole. [01:57] No, he's creating a strawman [01:57] yes, but i don't like his style. [01:57] he comes off as an asshole. [01:57] Ever encountered a militant athiest? [01:57] yes [01:57] my wife is practically one :p [01:58] They're pretty much like militant religious folks [01:58] i try not to call her stupid to her face. [01:58] yes, they are. [01:58] atheism is a religion. [01:58] Oh yeah [01:59] fundies [01:59] not much different from fundamnetalist christians or islamists [02:00] someday there will be a group of atheists killing people, just like jihadists [02:00] or terrorizing people like westboro nutters [02:00] OK, Is everyone ready for a meeting? [02:01] We have a lot coming up in the next few months [02:01] oh no is that now? [02:01] what a terrible prequel :) [02:01] http://loco.ubuntu.com/meetings/ubuntu-michigan/318/detail/ [02:02] First order of business [02:02] A2 Hosting partnership [02:02] meeting? [02:02] Got contacted by Brd Litwin of A2 Hosting to sponsor the Ubuntu MI grou [02:02] ruh roh... [02:02] p [02:02] whoa? interesting [02:03] The text of the mail is in the agenda item [02:03] lets negotiate! [02:03] Brad has also contacted MUG for sponsorship [02:03] heh, ok reading [02:03] tell him sure, as long as the group can have a free VPS :p [02:03] hmm, is this out of CHC you think? [02:03] On the surface I think there's not much we can do for each other [02:03] or just form letter? I don't know I'd considered teh loco a web dev org [02:03] It's a form letter [02:04] MUG got exactly the same thing [02:04] yea, I mean I don't think the Loco has much hosting needs [02:04] both are true. [02:04] I think other groups like MUG and such are a better place for referrals/etc [02:04] wait, is this a meeting? [02:04] i also don't know how many referals we would make. [02:04] Yeah, I think the best we could do is refer people to A2 [02:04] I mean, I could make personal referals and say "tell 'em ubuntu mi sent ya" [02:05] right, I mean what would we do? Have the A2 hosting ad moment at group meet ups [02:05] but we have our own hosting through Canonical, and we have no treasury [02:05] snap-l: +1 [02:05] no treasure is key I think, and we should keep it that way. [02:05] jrwren: +1 [02:05] maybe we could refer them to more A2 centric groups? AACS and the like? [02:05] woot, love just +1'ing other people [02:05] exactly, I think MUG is a great fit [02:06] snap-l: isn't mug already hosted on A2? [02:06] jrwren: Yeah, I think AACS would be a better fit [02:06] rick_h: Yep, and we're paid for 3 years [02:06] yep, AACS and is that AA web dev group still around? [02:06] but Jim is checking into it [02:06] a2div is not around, but there is a new a2 node group. [02:06] snap-l: yea ok cool. I'd say we just respond with a "that's awesome, we don't really fit but have you checked out the following..." [02:07] Do you folks have contact information for the other groups? [02:07] and lead to other groups as a nice thing for an "area" business [02:07] i have contact info for all the groups mentioned so far. [02:07] ooh, I should pull up the guy for the detroit dev days stuff [02:07] i don't know about other groups... BUT [02:07] we could ask him to donate the $85 to the linux foundation. [02:08] in case of referral? [02:08] yes [02:08] it would be kind of cool to raise money for a linux nonprofit [02:08] jrwren: Would you send me the contact info for the AACS and the A2 Node group? [02:09] snap-l: pm ok? [02:09] (e-mail) ;) [02:09] k [02:09] tx [02:09] OK, anything else on that? [02:10] (getting folks fired up. :) ) [02:10] Moving on, then to item #2: Penguicon [02:10] And the release party [02:10] release party is at Penguicon this year, as it was last year [02:11] The hotel liason is aware of this, so I think the only thing we need to do is show up at the bar area [02:11] I'm not sure how well it'll accomodate folks. If it gets too big, we'll figure something else out [02:11] as always, hotel rules trup the party [02:11] trump, rather [02:12] i don't know if anyone heard, but the PC tech track is in need of speakers [02:12] tech track has been weak the past few yrs and they are looking to bring back some good stuff [02:12] We've also been asked to do a panel discussion for Precise Pangolin [02:13] I'll send out a separate e-mail to ask for volunteers for that [02:13] But yes, Penguicon is in dire need of a tech track [02:14] PCon is like stone soup in that regard. The more tech folks that come forward, more tech folks volunteer to show up [02:14] truth [02:14] So, if you have any inkling of ideas you'd like to present at PCon (rick_h) please contact them. [02:15] * rick_h whistles dixie... [02:15] maybe BZR for the git junkie [02:15] bah, ok I'll look forward to the email and look into it [02:15] I'm debating on presenting the podcast talk again, with a little more focus [02:15] meh, I can talk on shell, vim, JS testing, ORM fun, whatever [02:15] do vim [02:15] I'll check the dates and figure something or two out I guess [02:15] now that canonical owns you you have to talk ubuntu [02:16] rick: tech@penguicon.org [02:16] Its the hardcore stuff that's cool [02:16] rick_h could just sit there for an hour and code [02:16] hah [02:16] The zen of code [02:16] bring the loud keyboard for best effect [02:17] performance coding is real, if you haven't seen it, look it up [02:17] "keyboarding for the geek with tastes" [02:17] OK, so any other thoughts on PCon? [02:17] no, was secretly hoping it didn't coincide with release party this year :P [02:17] rick_h: Yeah, good luck with that. :) [02:18] * snap-l doesn't let on that his secret goal is to see rick_h partying with pirates. [02:18] If I still have this job @ Penguicon I probably won't be at this Penguicon [02:18] tjagoda: Work on that. [02:18] http://prog21.dadgum.com/28.html http://impromptu.moso.com.au/gallery.html :) [02:19] OK, Moving on to item #3 [02:19] Global Jam is coming up [02:19] like REAL SOON NOW [02:19] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam [02:20] jrwren: Is SRT available for that weekend? [02:20] tentative yes. I need to confirm [02:21] SRT almost never has weekend things going on, so it should be easy to secure [02:21] OK, awesome [02:21] LMK if that falls through [02:21] ok [02:21] s/M/U/ [02:22] Thinking we could do what we did before with a 12-5pm jam [02:22] That seemed to work out OK [02:22] yea, works for me [02:22] sounds good [02:22] bah, except I've got family in town now that I load hte page [02:23] well maybe...hmmmm [02:23] Bring 'em down [02:24] http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-michigan/1526/detail/ [02:25] That's the event info [02:25] can you put it on the ubuntu-michigan calendar? [02:25] More details forthcoming [02:25] That is the Ubuntu MI calendar. :) [02:27] Anything else we need to talk about the jam in here? [02:28] OK, last item: [02:28] SWAG for upcoming events [02:29] I have failed to ask about this [02:29] (sad trombone) [02:29] I will send out a mail to enquire about this [02:30] That's all I have [02:30] any other business? [02:32] brousch: One thought: is West MI planning on coming to Ann Arbor? [02:33] i will try to come out for bug jam. probably have our own release party at the weekly grlug meeting [02:33] OK [02:33] Please put the release party for GRLUG on the calendar whenyou get a chance. [02:34] oh, right [02:40] OK, unless there's anything else, I think w can call this a meeting [02:40] Thank you, everyone1 [02:40] we had a meeting on super bowl sunday? [02:40] We're geeks [02:40] hahaha [02:40] It's just another sunday [02:41] you're missing some great commericals [02:41] Pardon me while I don't give a shit. :) [02:41] wow [02:41] just trying to be funny, guess i'll crawl back under my rock [02:41] jjesse: Sheesh, don't take me seriously. :) [02:41] :) [03:28] <_stink_> heh - i didn't watch a single minute of the game. usually i would [03:28] <_stink_> i don't even know if it's done yet. [03:29] heh done [03:36] <_stink_> i do have it DVRed, but uh, i'd have to zip through it tonight or avoid all media and humans tomorrow to keep the result a secret until i watch it [03:37] <_stink_> that's the good thing about recording overseas soccer games [03:37] <_stink_> no one wants to talk about them [03:37] recording what? [03:38] <_stink_> my wife said something about Madonna [03:38] <_stink_> :P [03:43] oh, that's who played the crypt keeper tonight? [03:44] <_stink_> hehe [03:46] (joke wasn't mine, saw it flow along the twitterstream) [04:38] <_stink_> thanks, DVR! i just watched it in about 40 minutes. [10:07] any ladies near ann arbor [11:35] morning [11:49] GOod morning [12:40] the subaru tranny troubles have been temporarily fixed with a $5 bottle of tranny stop leak [12:40] i alsways though that stuff was snakeoil [12:40] hah [12:44] my mechanic explained to me how it might actually work for a few months [12:49] A rubber bushing was down deep in the tranny is worn. The snakeoil swells the bushing so it seals again. It should work until it wears farther. [12:49] cool [12:51] yeah, now we can at least have both cars while we shop for a new one [13:08] man, now I'll have to start thinking nice things about dreamhost: http://blog.doughellmann.com/2012/02/moving-to-dreamhost.html [13:10] finally someone who can get them off of py2.5 [13:10] heh, I guess this next version of django will be the last to support 2.5 [13:11] so I think that'll prod a lot of people to finally move if you can't run django [13:11] i don't think 1.4 will support 2.5 [13:12] so i think the current version is the last [13:13] nope, you're right [13:13] django 1.4 will support python 2.5 [13:14] yea, I was following hte conversation on twitter over the weekend [13:14] GAE finally bumped up to 2.7 [14:02] Nice to see Doug Hellman moving to Dreamhost [14:02] yea, interesting [14:16] use my referral code if you join up! [14:18] I'm not that crazy. :) [14:22] not crazy enough to use my code, or not crazy enough to use dreamhost? [14:26] the latter [14:28] :P [14:37] wow. just wow http://debbiespenditnow.com/ [14:38] What was the point of that? [14:38] the whole page is wow [14:40] i can't believe it's not a spoof site [14:55] OK Pythonistas: what's the best way to use a sqlalchemy model between tests? Test Suite? [14:55] Using nosetests to run the whole shebang, but want to set up the models and test them first before testing other code [15:00] Hm, maybe fixture will do the trick [15:53] snap-l: using migrations? [15:59] snap-l: you're onto one of the great debated topics of testing [15:59] there's a ton of ways to go and all depends on what you're testing [16:00] Yeah, I think I'm just going to repeat myself [16:00] ?? [16:00] repeat yourself? [16:01] was going to see if I could re-use the code that I'm using to test the models to test the mailing [16:01] since the mailing piece uses the same database as the model test [16:01] well ideally you'd feed the mailing tests non-model bits [16:01] that doesn't need to touch a database [16:01] ideally your mailing code is taking as a parameter a list of objects that you can just send fakes in [16:02] and not talking to the db directly [16:02] The mailing bits read from the database, though. [16:02] Feh [16:02] boooo :P [16:02] What started off as a nice little script is turning into a refactoring mess [16:03] always always write a wrapper api over the sqlalchemy code [16:03] just so it can be tested [16:03] well, you'll be glad for it later [16:03] Yeah, thanks doc. [16:03] go ask john how easy that staples crap was [16:03] ugh, /me grumbles some more on that [16:04] So, waitaminute [16:04] snap-l: it's the old case for the Mgr class stuff you see in bookie we chatted about before [16:04] it's easy to mock that out for tests [16:04] the correct way to test something like this is to mock out the database? WOuldn't it be easier to load fake data into sqlite's memory database and test that? [16:05] that's one way, but fragile [16:05] the *right* way is to mock the database object you send to the mail code [16:05] Jesus, python people are strange. ;) [16:05] so you've got an object that you're mailing "MailUsers" that has things on it like name, age, etc [16:06] then you'd mock outa MailUsers object, set ame, age values, and then pass it to the email code [16:06] so don't think of it as mocking the database, but mocking the result set or returned value [16:06] Except the e-mail code will be mocked out so it doesn't send anything to anyone [16:06] This mockery will not stand! [16:06] well that's only the last smtp part [16:06] you're not going to mock out the building of the email object, checking headers set right, checking titles are formatted correctly, etc [16:07] No, just the last piece [16:07] "sending out the mail" [16:07] it's another case of hard without seeing the code [16:07] but right, you want to test only the part of code that's under test [16:07] you don't want things like models breaking your email test [16:07] that's why what you're trying to do is bad [16:07] "how can I test my models before I test other code that's going to use those..." [16:07] sign of fail [16:08] * snap-l mutters something about regexes and two problems. [16:08] * snap-l mutters something else about mocking objects and two problems. [16:10] heh [16:10] well but that's why it's done a ton of ways [16:10] some people do sqlite in memory dbs [16:10] some people have dbs with known start data [16:10] but eventually maintaining those gets hairy [16:11] and if you're not deploying to sqlite...well now how do you run tests against mysql,e tc [16:11] You use sqlalchemy and abstract away the database like a good developer. ;) [16:12] right, but in Bookie code I've got queries, built with sqlalchemy, that failed in pgsql but passed sqlite [16:12] it's not 100% [16:12] see anything datetime related [16:12] or boolean [16:13] interesting. i think i would use a sqlite DB too [16:13] but i'm as leet as the fungus under rick_h's pinky toenail [16:14] there's all kinds of ways, there's just keeping things in the sqlalchemy session and never committing [16:14] basically you start a session, do work, test, rollback [16:14] there's fake dbs, there's mocking out things, there's full production dbs that you run tests against [16:17] anyway, the most *right* solution, but a pita as well is to make sure your appliaction code uses generic "objects" and those generic objects are a layer that talks to the db/orm so that you've got a middle layer to split along, mock, and test. [16:17] it also makes things like changing ORMs and such much much easier and refactoring nicer [16:18] changing orms? [16:18] I already chose the One True ORM, and now you're talking about changing it? [16:18] sheesh [16:18] that's it, I'm moving back to Perl [16:19] At least there we had one true database interface. DBI and DBD, and may God have mercy on your SQL [16:19] heh [16:19] well I'm generalizing, this is true of any time you use a library [16:19] rick_h: I know [16:19] you want to make sure you wrap it or can wrap any future thing of it so that you can swap it out [16:19] apis all the way down [16:20] I just wonder how far down the rabbit hole you can go before your in a maze of API calls, all alike. [16:20] this is a neat concept http://hairysun.com/books/decorators/ [16:20] While a Cheshire Cat mocks you out of existence. [16:21] just keep it in mind. I think it's the kind of thing you have to find and get the voila moment with [16:21] brousch: Sheesh, that book image is taking forever to load [16:21] http://hairysun.com/blog/2012/02/04/learning-python-decorators-handout/http://hairysun.com/blog/2012/02/04/learning-python-decorators-handout/ [16:22] Too bad it's kindle only [16:22] bwuhahahaha :P [16:22] it's the store/billing [16:22] d00d put the kindle app on your nook [16:22] d000000d haven't rooted the nook yet. [16:22] l4mz0r [16:23] Well, considering the lame-ass apps that the Nook has in their store, it may get rooted sooner than later [16:23] anyways, it's not the book itself that's awesome, it's the concept of a small book targeting a specific thing. like a chapter from a giant python book [16:24] http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/NOOK-Apps/379003212 <- Look and weep [16:24] yea, the kindle singles and such [16:24] it's the thing rage these days, self publish, etc [16:24] so you can publish a cheap, small book on a topic you know well without worrying about all the other crap that usually goes with a programming book [16:25] right [16:26] PDF, epub or go home. [16:27] heh [16:27] i wonder if you bought the kindle book if he'd send you a PDF [16:28] Not sure [16:28] Should I ignite the fires of nerd-ragery? [16:29] you could just ask without starting a flamefest [16:29] then, if denied, turn on the flamethrower [16:29] It only has two speeds: off, and immolation [16:30] and no safety [16:59] snap-l: welcome back to Perl? ;-) [17:00] also, mobi or gtfo [17:00] Wolfger: Those must be some good drugs. :) [17:00] .mobi is a terrible format [17:01] +1 [17:01] It works on my Kindle, therefore it is awesome. [17:02] * Wolfger honestly hasn't compared any of the formats in any meaningful way [17:02] If Amazon wasn't the owner of .mobi, I think they would be using ePub [17:02] yea [17:02] I'm a kindle lover and I hate mobi and want epub [17:03] http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/MOBI [17:03] http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/EPUB [17:03] Which would you rather write a filter for? :) [17:04] The only problem with ePub is it is a bit of a pain to get it right on multiple devices. [17:05] it's html, welcome to the web [17:05] :) [17:05] Yeah, that's what I was going to say; it's kinda like 1995 era HTML [17:05] And of course it's Adobe, so it has it's own little quirks [17:06] epub3 to save the day...maybe...hopefully [17:06] Don't bet on it. epub3 has some wonkiness associated with it as well [17:06] yea, but less 1995 html [17:07] 1998-2000 HTML. ;) [17:12] I love how one of the features of epub3 is "font obfuscation" [17:13] Damn typography idiots [17:13] but I guess that's the concession they need to make to get embeddable fonts in the standard. [17:13] yep [18:14] screw fonts. let me use my own font [18:19] but then it won't look exactly how the designer wanted it to [18:20] heh, yea I like the option [18:20] people make bad decisions to express themselves and be artistic [18:20] :) [18:24] it will never look how they want because it's the same ePub on an android phone as on a 30" monitor [18:30] well, not if you do special CSS (or whatever the equiv is on epub3, I assume CSS?) [18:31] like those blogs that have 1-5 columns depending on how wide your browser window is [18:31] responsive design wheeee [18:34] well if it's as snap-l described, then that won't come about for another decade or so [18:35] I didn't real all the scrollback, so you can safely ignore my uninformed comments ;) [18:35] s/real/read/ [18:36] greg-g: just discussion epub vs mobi and how epub is htmly but old htmly [18:47] WEll, epub3 is supposed to be more html5y [18:49] well then they should call it epub5, since we all know version numbers are arbitrary bs anyhow [18:52] yea, well fancy video/audio and input elements/interactive stuff [18:59] why not just use html? [19:00] It kind of is underneath [19:00] because that wouldn't work :P [19:00] but there's some packaging to make it work (chapters, table of contents, etc) [19:00] Head to gutenberg and download an epub file and run "unzip" on it [19:01] it's pretty illuminating how it's put together [19:01] kind of like .ODF files