[00:02] <tjagoda> Apparently
[00:02] <tjagoda> 3 million downloads per day from appworld now
[00:03] <tjagoda> Not as shabby as the stats once were
[00:06] <jrwren> snap-l: Windows Phone 7
[00:30] <snap-l> jrwren: Hell no
[00:34] <tjagoda> He said that just to troll =P
[00:34]  * tjagoda writes off WIndows phone like other people write off Blackberry 
[01:21] <jrwren> i write off win phone too.
[01:21] <jrwren> but if iphone is a no, and android is a no... I think winphone is 3rd.
[01:21] <jrwren> i sure as hell wouldn't want a BB
[01:26] <rick_h> jrwren: I want to map() over a list and if any returns false come back with a single false value, what is the name of the thing I'm thinking of?
[01:27] <jrwren> but if none are false you want the result to be the list of newly built things?
[01:27] <rick_h> no, basically True
[01:27] <rick_h> have a list of checks, want to process and see if anything comes up false else we're golden
[01:27] <jrwren> i only know the .net terminology :(
[01:28] <jrwren> All()
[01:28] <rick_h> I think I'll just do it via reduce() and go there
[01:28] <rick_h> jrwren: ah, that makes sense
[01:28] <jrwren> it is a reduce
[01:28] <jrwren> so that is a good place to go
[01:28] <rick_h> yea, don't think YUI has a built in for it
[01:28] <jrwren> prolly not
[01:29] <rick_h> jrwren: yea, the Y.Array stuff has some "truthy" checks but it's more "process until you get a non-truthy then quit procoessing"
[01:40] <rick_h> ok, well this is depressing: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/03/the-fireplace-delusion-a-metaphor-for-religious-belief.html
[01:47] <snap-l> rick_h: Yep, the human race has a lot of gree grees
[01:47] <snap-l> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grigri
[01:52] <jrwren> its a strawman.
[01:52] <jrwren> "obvious harm to our health and environment" is a load of b.s.
[01:52] <jrwren> what harm to either of those?
[01:52] <jrwren> show me hte science for that.
[01:52] <jrwren> there is none.
[01:53] <jrwren> but it is nice to hear an athiest talking about how religeous athiests can be.
[01:56] <snap-l> jrwren: Well, there is something to be said for not maintaining something burning in your house
[01:56] <jrwren> why?
[01:56] <jrwren> the gas at my stove burns
[01:56] <jrwren> and in my furnace
[01:56] <jrwren> i maintain them both regularly
[01:57] <jrwren> the writer is an asshole.
[01:57] <snap-l> No, he's creating a strawman
[01:57] <jrwren> yes, but i don't like his style.
[01:57] <jrwren> he comes off as an asshole.
[01:57] <snap-l> Ever encountered a militant athiest?
[01:57] <jrwren> yes
[01:57] <jrwren> my wife is practically one :p
[01:58] <snap-l> They're pretty much like militant religious folks
[01:58] <jrwren> i try not to call her stupid to her face.
[01:58] <jrwren> yes, they are.
[01:58] <jrwren> atheism is a religion.
[01:58] <snap-l> Oh yeah
[01:59] <jrwren> fundies
[01:59] <jrwren> not much different from fundamnetalist christians or islamists
[02:00] <jrwren> someday there will be a group of atheists killing people, just like jihadists
[02:00] <jrwren> or terrorizing people like westboro nutters
[02:00] <snap-l> OK, Is everyone ready for a meeting?
[02:01] <snap-l> We have a lot coming up in the next few months
[02:01] <jrwren> oh no is that now?
[02:01] <jrwren> what a terrible prequel :)
[02:01] <snap-l> http://loco.ubuntu.com/meetings/ubuntu-michigan/318/detail/
[02:02] <snap-l> First order of business
[02:02] <snap-l> A2 Hosting partnership
[02:02] <rick_h> meeting?
[02:02] <snap-l> Got contacted by Brd Litwin of A2 Hosting to sponsor the Ubuntu MI grou
[02:02] <rick_h> ruh roh...
[02:02] <snap-l> p
[02:02] <rick_h> whoa? interesting
[02:03] <snap-l> The text of the mail is in the agenda item
[02:03] <jrwren> lets negotiate!
[02:03] <snap-l> Brad has also contacted MUG for sponsorship
[02:03] <rick_h> heh, ok reading
[02:03] <jrwren> tell him sure, as long as the group can have a free VPS :p
[02:03] <rick_h> hmm, is this out of CHC you think?
[02:03] <snap-l> On the surface I think there's not much we can do for each other
[02:03] <rick_h> or just form letter? I don't know I'd considered teh loco a web dev org
[02:03] <snap-l> It's a form letter
[02:04] <snap-l> MUG got exactly the same thing
[02:04] <rick_h> yea, I mean I don't think the Loco has much hosting needs
[02:04] <jrwren> both are true.
[02:04] <rick_h> I think other groups like MUG and such are a better place for referrals/etc
[02:04] <brousch> wait, is this a meeting?
[02:04] <jrwren> i also don't know how many referals we would make.
[02:04] <snap-l> Yeah, I think the best we could do is refer people to A2
[02:04] <jrwren> I mean, I could make personal referals and say "tell 'em ubuntu mi sent ya"
[02:05] <rick_h> right, I mean what would we do? Have the A2 hosting ad moment at group meet ups
[02:05] <snap-l> but we have our own hosting through Canonical, and we have no treasury
[02:05] <rick_h> snap-l: +1
[02:05] <jrwren> no treasure is key I think, and we should keep it that way.
[02:05] <rick_h> jrwren: +1
[02:05] <jrwren> maybe we could refer them to more A2 centric groups?  AACS and the like?
[02:05] <rick_h> woot, love just +1'ing other people
[02:05] <rick_h> exactly, I think MUG is a great fit
[02:06] <rick_h> snap-l: isn't mug already hosted on A2?
[02:06] <snap-l> jrwren: Yeah, I think AACS would be a better fit
[02:06] <snap-l> rick_h: Yep, and we're paid for 3 years
[02:06] <rick_h> yep, AACS and is that AA web dev group still around?
[02:06] <snap-l> but Jim is checking into it
[02:06] <jrwren> a2div is not around, but there is a new a2 node group.
[02:06] <rick_h> snap-l: yea ok cool. I'd say we just respond with a "that's awesome, we don't really fit but have you checked out the following..."
[02:07] <snap-l> Do you folks have contact information for the other groups?
[02:07] <rick_h> and lead to other groups as a nice thing for an "area" business
[02:07] <jrwren> i have contact info for all the groups mentioned so far.
[02:07] <rick_h> ooh, I should pull up the guy for the detroit dev days stuff
[02:07] <jrwren> i don't know about other groups... BUT
[02:07] <jrwren> we could ask him to donate the $85 to the linux foundation.
[02:08] <rick_h> in case of referral?
[02:08] <jrwren> yes
[02:08] <jrwren> it would be kind of cool to raise money for a linux nonprofit
[02:08] <snap-l> jrwren: Would you send me the contact info for the AACS and the A2 Node group?
[02:09] <jrwren> snap-l: pm ok?
[02:09] <snap-l> (e-mail) ;)
[02:09] <jrwren> k
[02:09] <snap-l> tx
[02:09] <snap-l> OK, anything else on that?
[02:10] <snap-l> (getting folks fired up. :) )
[02:10] <snap-l> Moving on, then to item #2: Penguicon
[02:10] <snap-l> And the release party
[02:10] <snap-l> release party is at Penguicon this year, as it was last year
[02:11] <snap-l> The hotel liason is aware of this, so I think the only thing we need to do is show up at the bar area
[02:11] <snap-l> I'm not sure how well it'll accomodate folks. If it gets too big, we'll figure something else out
[02:11] <snap-l> as always, hotel rules trup the party
[02:11] <snap-l> trump, rather
[02:12] <jrwren> i don't know if anyone heard, but the PC tech track is in need of speakers
[02:12] <jrwren> tech track has been weak the past few yrs and they are looking to bring back some good stuff
[02:12] <snap-l> We've also been asked to do a panel discussion for Precise Pangolin
[02:13] <snap-l> I'll send out a separate e-mail to ask for volunteers for that
[02:13] <snap-l> But yes, Penguicon is in dire need of a tech track
[02:14] <snap-l> PCon is like stone soup in that regard. The more tech folks that come forward, more tech folks volunteer to show up
[02:14] <jrwren> truth
[02:14] <snap-l> So, if you have any inkling of ideas you'd like to present at PCon (rick_h) please contact them.
[02:15]  * rick_h whistles dixie...
[02:15] <jrwren> maybe BZR for the git junkie
[02:15] <rick_h> bah, ok I'll look forward to the email and look into it
[02:15] <snap-l> I'm debating on presenting the podcast talk again, with a little more focus
[02:15] <rick_h> meh, I can talk on shell, vim, JS testing, ORM fun, whatever
[02:15] <tjagoda> do vim
[02:15] <rick_h> I'll check the dates and figure something or two out I guess
[02:15] <brousch> now that canonical owns you you have to talk ubuntu
[02:16] <snap-l> rick: tech@penguicon.org
[02:16] <tjagoda> Its the hardcore stuff that's cool
[02:16] <brousch> rick_h could just sit there for an hour and code
[02:16] <rick_h> hah
[02:16] <snap-l> The zen of code
[02:16] <brousch> bring the loud keyboard for best effect
[02:17] <jrwren> performance coding is real, if you haven't seen it, look it up
[02:17] <rick_h> "keyboarding for the geek with tastes"
[02:17] <snap-l> OK, so any other thoughts on PCon?
[02:17] <rick_h> no, was secretly hoping it didn't coincide with release party this year :P
[02:17] <snap-l> rick_h: Yeah, good luck with that. :)
[02:18]  * snap-l doesn't let on that his secret goal is to see rick_h partying with pirates.
[02:18] <tjagoda> If I still have this job @ Penguicon I probably won't be at this Penguicon
[02:18] <snap-l> tjagoda: Work on that.
[02:18] <jrwren> http://prog21.dadgum.com/28.html http://impromptu.moso.com.au/gallery.html :)
[02:19] <snap-l> OK, Moving on to item #3
[02:19] <snap-l> Global Jam is coming up
[02:19] <snap-l> like REAL SOON NOW
[02:19] <snap-l> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[02:20] <snap-l> jrwren: Is SRT available for that weekend?
[02:20] <jrwren> tentative yes. I need to confirm
[02:21] <jrwren> SRT almost never has weekend things going on, so it should be easy to secure
[02:21] <snap-l> OK, awesome
[02:21] <snap-l> LMK if that falls through
[02:21] <jrwren> ok
[02:21] <snap-l> s/M/U/
[02:22] <snap-l> Thinking we could do what we did before with a 12-5pm jam
[02:22] <snap-l> That seemed to work out OK
[02:22] <rick_h> yea, works for me
[02:22] <jrwren> sounds good
[02:22] <rick_h> bah, except I've got family in town now that I load hte page
[02:23] <rick_h> well maybe...hmmmm
[02:23] <snap-l> Bring 'em down
[02:24] <snap-l> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-michigan/1526/detail/
[02:25] <snap-l> That's the event info
[02:25] <brousch> can you put it on the ubuntu-michigan calendar?
[02:25] <snap-l> More details forthcoming
[02:25] <snap-l> That is the Ubuntu MI calendar. :)
[02:27] <snap-l> Anything else we need to talk about the jam in here?
[02:28] <snap-l> OK, last item:
[02:28] <snap-l> SWAG for upcoming events
[02:29] <snap-l> I have failed to ask about this
[02:29] <snap-l> (sad trombone)
[02:29] <snap-l> I will send out a mail to enquire about this
[02:30] <snap-l> That's all I have
[02:30] <snap-l> any other business?
[02:32] <snap-l> brousch: One thought: is West MI planning on coming to Ann Arbor?
[02:33] <brousch> i will try to come out for bug jam. probably have our own release party at the weekly grlug meeting
[02:33] <snap-l> OK
[02:33] <snap-l> Please put the release party for GRLUG on the calendar whenyou get a chance.
[02:34] <brousch> oh, right
[02:40] <snap-l> OK, unless there's anything else, I think w can call this a meeting
[02:40] <snap-l> Thank you, everyone1
[02:40] <jjesse> we had a meeting on super bowl sunday?
[02:40] <snap-l> We're geeks
[02:40] <jjesse> hahaha
[02:40] <snap-l> It's just another sunday
[02:41] <jjesse> you're missing some great commericals
[02:41] <snap-l> Pardon me while I don't give a shit. :)
[02:41] <jjesse> wow
[02:41] <jjesse> just trying to be funny, guess i'll crawl back under my rock
[02:41] <snap-l> jjesse: Sheesh, don't take me seriously. :)
[02:41] <jjesse> :)
[03:28] <_stink_> heh - i didn't watch a single minute of the game.  usually i would
[03:28] <_stink_> i don't even know if it's done yet.
[03:29] <rick_h> heh done
[03:36] <_stink_> i do have it DVRed, but uh, i'd have to zip through it tonight or avoid all media and humans tomorrow to keep the result a secret until i watch it
[03:37] <_stink_> that's the good thing about recording overseas soccer games
[03:37] <_stink_> no one wants to talk about them
[03:37] <greg-g> recording what?
[03:38] <_stink_> my wife said something about Madonna
[03:38] <_stink_> :P
[03:43] <greg-g> oh, that's who played the crypt keeper tonight?
[03:44] <_stink_> hehe
[03:46] <greg-g> (joke wasn't mine, saw it flow along the twitterstream)
[04:38] <_stink_> thanks, DVR!  i just watched it in about 40 minutes.
[10:07] <nate22> any ladies near ann arbor
[11:35] <rick_h> morning
[11:49] <snap-l> GOod morning
[12:40] <brousch> the subaru tranny troubles have been temporarily fixed with a $5 bottle of tranny stop leak
[12:40] <brousch> i alsways though that stuff was snakeoil
[12:40] <rick_h> hah
[12:44] <brousch> my mechanic explained to me how it might actually work for a few months
[12:49] <brousch> A rubber bushing was down deep in the tranny is worn. The snakeoil swells the bushing so it seals again. It should work until it wears farther.
[12:49] <rick_h> cool
[12:51] <brousch> yeah, now we can at least have both cars while we shop for a new one
[13:08] <rick_h> man, now I'll have to start thinking nice things about dreamhost: http://blog.doughellmann.com/2012/02/moving-to-dreamhost.html
[13:10] <brousch> finally someone who can get them off of py2.5
[13:10] <rick_h> heh, I guess this next version of django will be the last to support 2.5
[13:11] <rick_h> so I think that'll prod a lot of people to finally move if you can't run django
[13:11] <brousch> i don't think 1.4 will support 2.5
[13:12] <brousch> so i think the current version is the last
[13:13] <brousch> nope, you're right
[13:13] <brousch> django 1.4 will support python 2.5
[13:14] <rick_h> yea, I was following hte conversation on twitter over the weekend
[13:14] <brousch> GAE finally bumped up to 2.7
[14:02] <snap-l> Nice to see Doug Hellman moving to Dreamhost
[14:02] <rick_h> yea, interesting
[14:16] <brousch> use my referral code if you join up!
[14:18] <snap-l> I'm not that crazy. :)
[14:22] <brousch> not crazy enough to use my code, or not crazy enough to use dreamhost?
[14:26] <snap-l> the latter
[14:28] <brousch> :P
[14:37] <brousch> wow. just wow http://debbiespenditnow.com/
[14:38] <snap-l> What was the point of that?
[14:38] <brousch> the whole page is wow
[14:40] <brousch> i can't believe it's not a spoof site
[14:55] <snap-l> OK Pythonistas: what's the best way to use a sqlalchemy model between tests? Test Suite?
[14:55] <snap-l> Using nosetests to run the whole shebang, but want to set up the models and test them first before testing other code
[15:00] <snap-l> Hm, maybe fixture will do the trick
[15:53] <rick_h> snap-l: using migrations?
[15:59] <rick_h> snap-l: you're onto one of the great debated topics of testing
[15:59] <rick_h> there's a ton of ways to go and all depends on what you're testing
[16:00] <snap-l> Yeah, I think I'm just going to repeat myself
[16:00] <rick_h> ??
[16:00] <rick_h> repeat yourself?
[16:01] <snap-l> was going to see if I could re-use the code that I'm using to test the models to test the mailing
[16:01] <snap-l> since the mailing piece uses the same database as the model test
[16:01] <rick_h> well ideally you'd feed the mailing tests non-model bits
[16:01] <rick_h> that doesn't need to touch a database
[16:01] <rick_h> ideally your mailing code is taking as a parameter a list of objects that you can just send fakes in
[16:02] <rick_h> and not talking to the db directly
[16:02] <snap-l> The mailing bits read from the database, though.
[16:02] <snap-l> Feh
[16:02] <rick_h> boooo :P
[16:02] <snap-l> What started off as a nice little script is turning into a refactoring mess
[16:03] <rick_h> always always write a wrapper api over the sqlalchemy code
[16:03] <snap-l> just so it can be tested
[16:03] <rick_h> well, you'll be glad for it later
[16:03] <snap-l> Yeah, thanks doc.
[16:03] <rick_h> go ask john how easy that staples crap was
[16:03] <rick_h> ugh, /me grumbles some more on that
[16:04] <snap-l> So, waitaminute
[16:04] <rick_h> snap-l: it's the old case for the Mgr class stuff you see in bookie we chatted about before
[16:04] <rick_h> it's easy to mock that out for tests
[16:04] <snap-l> the correct way to test something like this is to mock out the database? WOuldn't it be easier to load fake data into sqlite's memory database and test that?
[16:05] <rick_h> that's one way, but fragile
[16:05] <rick_h> the *right* way is to mock the database object you send to the mail code
[16:05] <snap-l> Jesus, python people are strange. ;)
[16:05] <rick_h> so you've got an object that you're mailing "MailUsers" that has things on it like name, age, etc
[16:06] <rick_h> then you'd mock outa  MailUsers object, set ame, age values, and then pass it to the email code
[16:06] <rick_h> so don't think of it as mocking the database, but mocking the result set or returned value
[16:06] <snap-l> Except the e-mail code will be mocked out so it doesn't send anything to anyone
[16:06] <snap-l> This mockery will not stand!
[16:06] <rick_h> well that's only the last smtp part
[16:06] <rick_h> you're not going to mock out the building of the email object, checking headers set right, checking titles are formatted correctly, etc
[16:07] <snap-l> No, just the last piece
[16:07] <snap-l> "sending out the mail"
[16:07] <rick_h> it's another case of hard without seeing the code
[16:07] <rick_h> but right, you want to test only the part of code that's under test
[16:07] <rick_h> you don't want things like models breaking your email test
[16:07] <rick_h> that's why what you're trying to do is bad
[16:07] <rick_h> "how can I test my models before I test other code that's going to use those..."
[16:07] <rick_h> sign of fail
[16:08]  * snap-l mutters something about regexes and two problems.
[16:08]  * snap-l mutters something else about mocking objects and two problems.
[16:10] <rick_h> heh
[16:10] <rick_h> well but that's why it's done a ton of ways
[16:10] <rick_h> some people do sqlite in memory dbs
[16:10] <rick_h> some people have dbs with known start data
[16:10] <rick_h> but eventually maintaining those gets hairy
[16:11] <rick_h> and if you're not deploying to sqlite...well now how do you run tests against mysql,e tc
[16:11] <snap-l> You use sqlalchemy and abstract away the database like a good developer. ;)
[16:12] <rick_h> right, but in Bookie code I've got queries, built with sqlalchemy, that failed in pgsql but passed sqlite
[16:12] <rick_h> it's not 100%
[16:12] <rick_h> see anything datetime related
[16:12] <rick_h> or boolean
[16:13] <brousch> interesting. i think i would use a sqlite DB too
[16:13] <brousch> but i'm as leet as the fungus under rick_h's pinky toenail
[16:14] <rick_h> there's all kinds of ways, there's just keeping things in the sqlalchemy session and never committing
[16:14] <rick_h> basically you start a session, do work, test, rollback
[16:14] <rick_h> there's fake dbs, there's mocking out things, there's full production dbs that you run tests against
[16:17] <rick_h> anyway, the most *right* solution, but a pita as well is to make sure your appliaction code uses generic "objects" and those generic objects are a layer that talks to the db/orm so that you've got a middle layer to split along, mock, and test.
[16:17] <rick_h> it also makes things like changing ORMs and such much much easier and refactoring nicer
[16:18] <brousch> changing orms?
[16:18] <snap-l> I already chose the One True ORM, and now you're talking about changing it?
[16:18] <snap-l> sheesh
[16:18] <snap-l> that's it, I'm moving back to Perl
[16:19] <snap-l> At least there we had one true database interface. DBI and DBD, and may God have mercy on your SQL
[16:19] <rick_h> heh
[16:19] <rick_h> well I'm generalizing, this is true of any time you use a library
[16:19] <snap-l> rick_h: I know
[16:19] <rick_h> you want to make sure you wrap it or can wrap any future thing of it so that you can swap it out
[16:19] <rick_h> apis all the way down
[16:20] <snap-l> I just wonder how far down the rabbit hole you can go before your in a maze of API calls, all alike.
[16:20] <brousch> this is a neat concept http://hairysun.com/books/decorators/
[16:20] <snap-l> While a Cheshire Cat mocks you out of existence.
[16:21] <rick_h> just keep it in mind. I think it's the kind of thing you have to find and get the voila moment with
[16:21] <snap-l> brousch: Sheesh, that book image is taking forever to load
[16:21] <rick_h> http://hairysun.com/blog/2012/02/04/learning-python-decorators-handout/http://hairysun.com/blog/2012/02/04/learning-python-decorators-handout/
[16:22] <snap-l> Too bad it's kindle only
[16:22] <rick_h> bwuhahahaha :P
[16:22] <rick_h> it's the store/billing
[16:22] <brousch> d00d put the kindle app on your nook
[16:22] <snap-l> d000000d haven't rooted the nook yet.
[16:22] <brousch> l4mz0r
[16:23] <snap-l> Well, considering the lame-ass apps that the Nook has in their store, it may get rooted sooner than later
[16:23] <brousch> anyways, it's not the book itself that's awesome, it's the concept of a small book targeting a specific thing. like a chapter from a giant python book
[16:24] <snap-l> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/NOOK-Apps/379003212 <- Look and weep
[16:24] <rick_h> yea, the kindle singles and such
[16:24] <rick_h> it's the thing rage these days, self publish, etc
[16:24] <brousch> so you can publish a cheap, small book on a topic you know well without worrying about all the other crap that usually goes with a programming book
[16:25] <rick_h> right
[16:26] <snap-l> PDF, epub or go home.
[16:27] <brousch> heh
[16:27] <brousch> i wonder if you bought the kindle book if he'd send you a PDF
[16:28] <snap-l> Not sure
[16:28] <snap-l> Should I ignite the fires of nerd-ragery?
[16:29] <brousch> you could just ask without starting a flamefest
[16:29] <brousch> then, if denied, turn on the flamethrower
[16:29] <snap-l> It only has two speeds: off, and immolation
[16:30] <snap-l> and no safety
[16:59] <Wolfger> snap-l: welcome back to Perl? ;-)
[17:00] <Wolfger> also, mobi or gtfo
[17:00] <snap-l> Wolfger: Those must be some good drugs. :)
[17:00] <snap-l> .mobi is a terrible format
[17:01] <rick_h> +1
[17:01] <Wolfger> It works on my Kindle, therefore it is awesome.
[17:02]  * Wolfger honestly hasn't compared any of the formats in any meaningful way
[17:02] <snap-l> If Amazon wasn't the owner of .mobi, I think they would be using ePub
[17:02] <rick_h> yea
[17:02] <rick_h> I'm a kindle lover and I hate mobi and want epub
[17:03] <snap-l> http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/MOBI
[17:03] <snap-l> http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/EPUB
[17:03] <snap-l> Which would you rather write a filter for? :)
[17:04] <snap-l> The only problem with ePub is it is a bit of a pain to get it right on multiple devices.
[17:05] <rick_h> it's html, welcome to the web
[17:05] <rick_h> :)
[17:05] <snap-l> Yeah, that's what I was going to say; it's kinda like 1995 era HTML
[17:05] <snap-l> And of course it's Adobe, so it has it's own little quirks
[17:06] <rick_h> epub3 to save the day...maybe...hopefully
[17:06] <snap-l> Don't bet on it. epub3 has some wonkiness associated with it as well
[17:06] <rick_h> yea, but less 1995 html
[17:07] <snap-l> 1998-2000 HTML. ;)
[17:12] <snap-l> I love how one of the features of epub3 is "font obfuscation"
[17:13] <snap-l> Damn typography idiots
[17:13] <snap-l> but I guess that's the concession they need to make to get embeddable fonts in the standard.
[17:13] <rick_h> yep
[18:14] <brousch> screw fonts. let me use my own font
[18:19] <greg-g> but then it won't look exactly how the designer wanted it to
[18:20] <rick_h> heh, yea I like the option
[18:20] <rick_h> people make bad decisions to express themselves and be artistic
[18:20] <greg-g> :)
[18:24] <brousch> it will never look how they want because it's the same ePub on an android phone as on a 30" monitor
[18:30] <greg-g> well, not if you do special CSS (or whatever the equiv is on epub3, I assume CSS?)
[18:31] <greg-g> like those blogs that have 1-5 columns depending on how wide your browser window is
[18:31] <rick_h> responsive design wheeee
[18:34] <brousch> well if it's as snap-l described, then that won't come about for another decade or so
[18:35] <greg-g> I didn't real all the scrollback, so you can safely ignore my uninformed comments ;)
[18:35] <greg-g> s/real/read/
[18:36] <rick_h> greg-g: just discussion epub vs mobi and how epub is htmly but old htmly
[18:47] <snap-l> WEll, epub3 is supposed to be more html5y
[18:49] <Wolfger> well then they should call it epub5, since we all know version numbers are arbitrary bs anyhow
[18:52] <rick_h> yea, well fancy video/audio and input elements/interactive stuff
[18:59] <brousch> why not just use html?
[19:00] <snap-l> It kind of is underneath
[19:00] <rick_h> because that wouldn't work :P
[19:00] <snap-l> but there's some packaging to make it work (chapters, table of contents, etc)
[19:00] <snap-l> Head to gutenberg and download an epub file and run "unzip" on it
[19:01] <snap-l> it's pretty illuminating how it's put together
[19:01] <snap-l> kind of like .ODF files