[00:15] hi there.. i have a Gbit rated lan, and am getting speed readings of approx 260mbits from XP clients when connecting to a local samba server ( at non peak time ) is this too low ? [00:19] pukeko, bitrate and throughput are two very different things [00:20] mediocre desktop computers can only transfer files in the 35-50MB/s range, older poorer performing ones lower [00:20] in ideal conditions, a windows vista/7 computer with a multi disk raid 0 can achieve 80MB/s from a linux samba server [00:21] the server must also have a multi disk raid to keep up with those numbers [00:23] utlemming: smoser: stgraber: I may push http://people.canonical.com/~serge/lxc.debdiff tonight. [00:24] if i perform the same test (iperf) from another linux box im getting approx 700mbits -- am wondering if its the SMB 1.0 overhead .. [00:25] (leaving tests running as i get some dinner) [00:27] hallyn: "++ echo "Please login as Ubuntu." => shouldn't it be "ubuntu"? [00:27] stgraber: I figured utlemming meant user Ubuntu [00:27] should i set the Tcp Window to the same on the XP and the Linux ..? [00:27] i.e., username [00:27] i'll change it. should i list the pwd too? [00:28] hallyn: yup [00:28] probably a good idea yeah [00:28] if i do that i get around 700mbits also [00:28] hallyn: I'm guessing this won't work until we have the new upstart though right? [00:28] works fine :) [00:28] the cloud images have lxcguest built in [00:29] ah ok, so we'll break them when we remove lxcguest, good to know ;) [00:29] in fact we'll have to think whether new upstart will cause it problems [00:29] yeah [00:30] i dno't know if automated cloud image generation will break, or just say " no lxcguest, s'coo" [00:30] utlemming: ^ [00:31] hallyn: I'm not sure I follow the concern [00:31] utlemming: pretty soon lxcguest will be removed from precise [00:31] utlemming: the lxcguest package won't exist anymore next week (hopefully) [00:32] ah....that's not a problem [00:32] sweet [00:32] the package is being installed via the server^ pattern [00:32] we are not explicitly installing it [00:32] i don't know what that is [00:32] apt package group [00:33] ok, sweet. thx. [00:33] oh, which means that lxc will be automatically moved back to universe once lxcguest is dropped [00:33] because currently the source and lxcguest are in main as lxcguest is in a server seed [00:34] when that's no longer the case, it'll be fully moved back to universe and so anyone who's MOTU will have upload rights again [00:34] are we ok with that, or do we beg for MIR for lxc? [00:36] I think it'd make sense to have lxc at least be in the supported seed but that'll require an MIR [00:37] I mean, we kind of hope people are going to use it in 12.04 otherwise we wouldn't put that much effort into it, so then I think it makes sense to have it as part of the LTS [00:39] out for dinner, bbl === sixstringsg|away is now known as sixstringsg [01:26] stgraber: tests all pass. did you ahve any more comments, or shoudl i push? [01:26] hallyn: nope, that was the only thing I noticed [01:26] ok thx === sixstringsg is now known as sixstringsg|away [01:36] anyone able to guide me through this? http://askubuntu.com/questions/102381/configuring-ubuntu-server-to-act-as-a-gateway-similar-to-a-router [01:41] EvilResistance, assuming you have both interfaces configured already, eth0 is internet, eth1 is LAN, `echo 1 > sudo tee /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward; sudo iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE; sudo iptables -A FORWARD -i eth0 -o eth1 -m state --state RELATED,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT; sudo iptables -A FORWARD -i eth1 -o eth0 -j ACCEPT` [01:42] qman___, the configuration of eth1 is the main issue i'm having, it doesnt want to work :P [01:42] that is doing it live, to have said configuration automatic at boot requires a few config file changes [01:43] you'll have to be more specific [01:43] "it doesn't work" isn't enough to go on [01:43] qman___, system isnt detecting the second networking card :P [01:43] at least... [01:43] well, that's a hardware problem then [01:43] not within networking... lspci has it, but its not being confiugred as an interface [01:43] * EvilResistance agrees [01:43] qman___, alternatively, other question I had is related: [01:43] how can i set up just the LAN part [01:43] any cobbler experts know what causes this on a cobbler replicate: Exception value: 'cobbler trigger failed: cobbler.modules.sync_post_restart_services' [01:44] ? [01:44] qman___, that is to say, configure the box as a LAN controller, without having external gateway access [01:44] and also, to provide IPs to each machine (also unconfigured on this box) [01:44] there's nothing to control [01:44] give it an IP [01:44] oh, you want to provide DHCP, you need a dhcp server [01:44] mhm [01:45] consider this is going to work with 45 systems, i dont want to be setting 45 IPs by hand :p [01:46] apt-get install dhcp3-server, or apt-get install dnsmasq [01:46] dnsmasq has the main benefit of also including DNS caching and automatic local DNS [01:47] thanks. [01:49] for future reference, if you know what you need, but not which package to install, you can use 'apt-cache search x' to try and find it [01:49] among a larger list of things, 'apt-cache search dhcp server' returned both of the above results [01:49] i see [01:49] apt-cache search what I need [01:50] qman___, last question, assigning an IP to the box itself for the LAN. Can either dhcp3-server or dnsmasq do this automatically and give it, say, 192.168.1.1? or does that get set up statically separate from the configuration of dnsmasq [01:51] your dhcp server must have a statically configured interface [01:53] actually that's not strictly true, in some rare instances [01:53] but for your purposes, and most all purposes, the DHCP server needs to already have a statically configured LAN interface in /etc/network/interfaces [01:54] the default gateway must always have a static IP [01:56] indeed. i assume i can configure the thing to hand out IPs from the 10.0.0.0/8 range, rather than 192.168.1.1? [01:56] s/192.168.1.1/192.168.0.0\/16/ [01:57] yes, you can use any range you want, though you should pick ranges in the designated private address spaces [01:58] 10.0.0.0/8 is defined in the RFCs to be private-use if i'm not mistaken... [01:58] yes, it is [02:00] 192.168/16, 10/8 and 172.16/12 [02:00] Also 169.something is reserved for the .local mDNS/DNSSD pseudodomain [02:01] 169.254/16 [02:01] for APIPA [02:02] avahi and all its friends need to FOAD tho [02:19] alrighty, i'm going to go take a stab at this, i shall return and let you know of the results === kerframil_ is now known as kerframil [02:57] qman___: i've installed dnsmasq, and it is running. I've followed (as far as I can tell) the correct configuration modification to enable the integrated DHCP server, and assign from a range of 45 IPs in the 10.0.0.0/8 area, with a 12 hour lease: dhcp-range=10.0.0.5,10.0.0.50,12h. I hook up one of the machines that i'm trying to get to work on this, and it doesnt receive an IP at all [02:59] EvilResistance, requisites: the server's interface must be up and configured, dnsmasq must have been restarted since the configuration change [02:59] one second, *fixes something unrelated* [03:05] okay, so now my system died >.> figures. [03:06] ANYWAYS i've put this into /etc/network/interfaces, i'm not even sure this is correct for what needs to be configured: http://pastebin.com/BS7umd1q [03:08] that is not correct [03:08] gateway cannot be itself [03:08] you can omit a gateway if there is none [03:09] that's what i wasnt sure about :P [03:10] and still nothing :/ [03:12] of course, network manager on the system connecting to the DHCP thing doesnt give me detailed information at *all* [03:14] well, the mere presence of network manager can break everything [03:14] I assumed you were using a server [03:14] to eliminate network manager as the problem, 'sudo service network-manager stop' [03:14] other thing to check is the logs [03:15] i am [03:15] the server doesnt have network manager [03:15] and restart dnsmasq after you bring up your 10.0.0.1 interface [03:15] the client system *connecting* to the server is [03:15] ah, ok [03:15] well, you can still stop network manager and use dhclient -v instead [03:15] that'll show you what's going on on the line [03:15] but because network manager is a piece of [REDACTED], it doesnt give useful error messages [03:15] ah [03:16] ... only problem is that the system i'm trying to connect to the server is the system i'm talking from... [03:16] and thats running off of a local wifi i have access to... [03:16] if i stop network manager on here, the connection will die :/ [03:16] unfortunately, yes [03:17] but network manager is pretty persistent [03:17] can't reliably dhclient with it running [03:17] can try though [03:17] meh lemme load up colloquy off my iphone so i can continue to communicate here [03:18] note my response speed will be far slower === Resistance is now known as Resist|WEB [03:19] okay, lemme bring down network-manager here... [03:22] seems to be trying to broadcast to 255.255.255.255, but nothing seems to be responding... [03:22] gateway line looks wrong [03:23] there is no more gateway line. [03:24] ok, if nothing's coming back, then next step to try is to make sure you can communicate at all [03:24] http://paste.debian.net/155527/ is how I'd do it [03:24] manually set an address with ifconfig or ip, and try to ping the server [03:24] But you want a 0/0 route *somewhere*, it just makes no sense to have it routed to yourself [03:25] there's no internet in his scenario yet, because his second NIC doesn't work [03:25] OK [03:25] but yeah, normally you'd set one [03:29] qman___ no respons... oh for the love of god... [03:29] * Resistance face desks [03:29] Resistance: purge NM entirely [03:29] I forgot to edit the firewall [03:30] that'll do it [03:30] stopping/starting network-manager works pretty reliably for my laptop [03:30] I often have to set it up as a router/gateway or bridge to troubleshoot stuff on the job, but also need network manager for wifi [03:30] and VPN [03:31] I know I don't NEED it for those functions, but it does them well and is way easier than doing it by hand [03:33] zul: could you please syncpackage -d unstable numactl ? [03:34] is there a way to find out what is the physical location of an image file ? all i see is /dev/loop0 on /media/xda when i run 'mount'. lsof didn't seem to find it either.. [03:34] bleh, still not working [03:34] I'll fix it later, I have other stuff to do :/ [03:35] arrrghhh: losetup [03:35] arrrghhh: /proc/mounts MAY tell you, I think that's new in 3.2 [03:35] ah, excellent [03:35] 2.6.32 here lol [03:36] sudo losetup -a did it. [03:36] thanks [03:36] mount -o loop uses losetup internally, you see [03:37] interesting... [03:37] the rabbit hole goes deep usually on linux. especially ubuntu [03:43] not to use arrrghhh's name in vain, but I just realized I lost an hour of last night's work by accidentally terminating an instance :( [03:45] New bug: #928608 in bind9 (main) "package bind9 1:9.7.3.dfsg-1ubuntu2.3 failed to install/upgrade: subproses skrip post-installation terpasang menghasilkan kesalahan status keluaran: 1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928608 [03:47] hallyn, i've been used for worse. [03:50] even with wrath-of-khan-level gesturing? good, cause it was painstaking ugly-patch-porting work... === bladernr_ is now known as bladernr_afk [04:19] hey all, someone alive? [04:19] No [04:20] lol [04:20] someone not-bot alive? [04:20] he's not a bot. [04:21] looks like [04:21] simple and clear [04:21] just a Not [04:21] but he usually has a pretty good catalog of knowledge, he's answered more than a handful of questions i've had. [04:21] er [04:21] i guess i'm assuming he. [04:21] meep. [04:22] anyone here using apcupsd with a RFC1628 SNMP card? [04:22] anyhoo, you got a question? [04:22] yep [04:22] !anyone [04:22] A high percentage of the first questions asked in this channel start with "Does anyone/anybody..." Why not ask your next question (the real one) and find out? See also !details, !gq, and !poll. [04:22] well [04:22] kantlivelong, i'm using apcupsd... but i don't think with that card. sorry. [04:22] well cause polite first [04:22] arrrghhh: its an ethernet based card :P [04:22] i have a USB connection from the ups to the PC [04:23] ive tried NUT and it seems good except one goof that it doesnt shutdown based on batt percent.. [04:23] hrm [04:23] it's an APC? [04:23] no [04:23] well mi problem is with some services at ubuntu 11.10 [04:23] oh [04:23] RFC1628 compliant snmp web card [04:23] just stop sending bytes after a request [04:23] ssh and apache [04:23] arrrghhh: which apcupsd says it supports [04:23] hrm.. [04:24] but the things is not with all host [04:24] just with some of it [04:24] i hope its just my OS giving me the segfault for apcupsd:P [04:24] (not ubuntu for the host node) [04:25] well think 2 problmems at the same time are not posible [04:25] lol [04:27] i hope this works :) [04:27] APCUPSD > NUT [04:29] guys you know if Ubuntu 11.10 got some kind of intruders network detector [04:29] Is apcupsd APC-specific? [04:29] I'm mainly usint nut because I don't know any better [04:29] cloneMX: not out of the box. Here is the one I use: http://cyber.com.au/~twb/doc/iptab.ips [04:30] cloneMX: I also recommend running regular pentests from outside the network, e.g. openvas [04:31] well I was asking cause I dont know why the server is closing my network service conections like apache2 and ssh [04:31] but not from all Hots [04:31] hosts [04:31] : D [04:31] have you checked the logs? [04:32] cloneMX: probably because your switch is fucked or your NATing router is fucked, or you have a bad cable or similar. [04:32] i would think all connections would drop if it was on the host side. [04:32] no/ [04:32] ? [04:32] well im using a brand new adsl modem [04:32] cloneMX: do the normal fault isolation things, such as checking the logs (as arrrghhh suggests), turning other services off, turning debugging on/up, swapping out components [04:32] over a pppoe [04:32] no logs [04:32] no firewall [04:33] testing components in isolation, e.g. connecting locally before connecting over the network [04:33] no info [04:33] no logs? [04:33] there's logs. [04:33] yep [04:33] apache logs, ssh logs [04:33] no information over the logs [04:33] it just work from some hots [04:33] hrm [04:33] and not from others [04:33] for example [04:34] now I can see the host from home [04:34] my adsl [04:34] cloneMX: there is a limit to how much we can babysit you [04:34] lol [04:34] ty anyway [04:34] cloneMX, first, quit using the enter key as punctuation. ask your question all in one line. [04:35] cloneMX: it sounds like you're inexperienced enough that you really need someone on the ground who can isolate the fault. [04:35] cloneMX: find your local linux user group (LUG) and ask them to recommend someone [04:35] kk [04:35] letme explain it [04:36] You've been explaining the symptoms for 48 hours without getting anywhere. Repeating yourself is not going to help. [04:36] im just did what you said [04:36] oh i haven't been here to see it, sorry. [04:36] from what you've said, it sounds like a generic network fault, which could be your NIC, or a piece of hardware somewhere between the endpoints, or just the internet being the internet [04:36] from basics [04:36] cloneMX, WAN residential connections are best effort. [04:37] they have pretty much no QoS. certainly they won't take anything that is passed thru your LAN [04:37] ok [04:38] home connections in general, and DSL in particular, are fairly unreliable [04:38] yea... DSL suxxxxxors. [04:38] i'm so very glad i vowed to never use it again :D [04:38] and if you're running on the ISP provided equipment, it's just as likely the box they gave you is crap [04:38] they do it all the time [04:38] see the previous on dsl sucking ^^ [04:39] ok [04:39] cloneMX, you want a reliable host? VPS. [04:39] arrrghhh: what are you using instead, satellite down, PSTN up? [04:39] lol@PSTN [04:39] That's the only alternative to DSL in .au [04:39] FSVO alternative = can't get DSL [04:39] cable.. tis the best my area has to offer at the time being [04:39] oh [04:40] i forget about regional issues [04:40] some areas have fiber [04:40] some have... no choice [04:40] yeah, in the US cable is the best trade off [04:40] indeed [04:40] FIOS is a better line, obviously, but is only available in select areas [04:40] comcrast has run some fiber, and their connections are the fastest. [04:40] cable is widely available and fairly reliable as long as you have good equipment [04:40] yup, no FiOS here. [04:40] qman___: i beg to differ on the FiOS thing [04:40] qman___, always purchase my own. [04:41] i wish that community internet would take hold [04:41] qman___: identical allowable internet bandwidth in the same location, homes literally next to each other, comcast has more net reliability than FiOS [04:41] look up 'greenlight cable' [04:41] at least out at my home [04:41] i installed that head-end. 10mb up AND down for $40/mo [04:41] out here where I am now, though, Comcast has the domination [04:41] 100/100 for... i want to say $99/mo [04:42] lol [04:42] comcast also has a 250GB/month cap [04:42] FIOS does not [04:42] ok guys ty [04:42] i know. dicks. [04:42] I like my Cox cable... No cap, static IP address [04:42] 25up 10down [04:42] wait, what? [04:42] Darkwing: ah, but is it a static IPv6 addrses [04:42] other way around i assume [04:42] for home lines anyway, business class comcast is better [04:42] 25up lol [04:42] qman___: if available ;P [04:42] IPv4, but it works for a small home server :D [04:42] business class isnt available out here [04:44] most of the customers I work with have comcast business lines, but at my house there is only charter communications [04:44] it's charter, dialup, satellite, or T1 [04:44] no other options are available [04:45] What's charter, a guy on a horse with a bag of USB keys? [04:45] cable, just a lesser known provider [04:45] costs more than comcast with less speed, but no usage cap === fenris is now known as Guest55400 [05:16] Hello Everybody [05:16] I installed postgresql 8.4 in ubuntu 10.04. [05:17] But, /etc/postgresql/8.4/ folder not created [05:17] Can anybody suggest what could the problem === Guest55400 is now known as ejat === Myrtti is now known as Guest12769 === Myrtti_ is now known as Myrtti === smb` is now known as smb === tjaalton_ is now known as tjaalton === nijaba_ is now known as nijaba [08:26] bat crashes on startup.. needs 9101 to function but fails to listen to this port. installed bacula also. did same thing on a debian computer and no problem at all. [08:49] Connection problems :/ [08:56] Sorry for flooding but, I'll repost the question - I recently installed Oneiric Server-amd64 on a Dell Poweredge 2950 which has an embedded ATI ES1000 card. I need to use virt-manager to manage a few VMs (having trouble with virsh) so, I installed xubuntu-desktop. On reboot, the screen just keeps flickering for a while before blanking out. The radeon driver is installed. There is no xorg.conf file [08:56] to edit in /etc/X11. [08:57] Please help :) [09:07] journeeman: you can connect with virt-manager on your workstation to libvirt on the server [09:07] journeeman: or ssh -X to your server [09:08] installing a graphical environment on your server to run virt-manager is not wat you should do imho [09:09] Oh ok [09:10] Will try them out. Thank you henkjan :) [09:13] journeeman: pretty sure you can use virt-manager to remotely connect to machines [09:13] File -> Add Connection -> Connection: [dropdown menu] [09:13] in that dropdown you can select various kinds of remote access [09:14] journeeman: so you really don't need to install something as heavy as a full DE [09:14] and even then, lxde is better than xfce, or dwn, ion, ratpoison, etc [09:15] ( as a screen and tmux user, /me <3 ratpoison ) [09:16] dwm* [09:57] hwo would I laod hte megaraid_sas driver in a preseed.cfg? my hands off install is not detecting the raid card correctly [10:05] jibel: afaik that should happen automatically if the PCI ID of the board is known to the driver [10:11] anyone using orchestra? just installed on an vm instance and the distro list is empty... [10:46] RoyK: the driver is a megaraid_sas, it says it can't detect the drives. I load teh driver, and the install proceeds [10:46] so, need to automate that selection [10:46] Good day to you all! === palt_ is now known as palt [10:48] tried: disk-detect/module_select select megaraid_sas [10:57] actually, I think I got it...nice [11:08] kirkland, roaksoax, SpamapS, Daviey : Anyone around ? === _ruben_ is now known as _ruben [11:17] roaksoax: The /etc/rsyslog.d/99-orchestra.conf is pasted here http://paste.debian.net/155555/ [11:21] New bug: #928769 in nova (main) "nova-compute fails due to absence of policy.json" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928769 [11:46] uksysadmin: Can you raise a bug please? [11:46] yeah will do [11:47] Trying to work out why others haven't spotted this as yet. [11:47] including our CI === tightwork_ is now known as tightwork [11:53] Daviey: What's this+ [11:53] ? [11:54] Daviey: hI [11:54] soren: bleed over from #openstack [11:54] hey Vivek [11:54] Daviey: I am still working on the DHCP issue from yesterday. [11:55] Vivek: happy times! [11:55] roaksoax has asked me for my 99-orchestra.conf file which was pasted earlier. [11:55] Daviey: Ah, there. Awesome. [11:58] My query was regarding creation of directories in the /var/log/orchestra/rsyslog directory corresponding to machines in the eth0 interface. [11:58] In dnsmasq.conf also I have set up the interface eth0 to not give out any dhcp requests via eth0. [11:59] eth0 is in bridged mode and the provisioning server runs inside a virtualbox . eth1 is the internal network range. [11:59] The internal network range is something like 192.168.1.x [11:59] eth1 is in internal networking mode. [12:00] I would like to know why those directories named after 10.x.x.x I.P Addresses are created inside /var/log/orchestra/rsyslog. === chuck_ is now known as zul [12:19] Vivek: i suspect they are created when the installer starts sending stuff back to the rsyslog server [12:22] ok [12:23] I understand that. [12:23] Daviey: Can you point me to exact source code that causes this to happen ? [12:27] Daviey: I would also like to know why there is dhcp and dhcp3 directories in /etc [12:27] Which one does orchestra use ? [12:31] Vivek: i think that is how rsyslog works.. you'd need to grep the rsyslog souce code for that. [12:40] chelz, henkjan Thank you :) [12:51] ok [12:52] Daviey: There are no machines installed in the 10.x.x.x series [12:52] via eth0 [12:53] All machines are commissioned via the eth1 interface with I.P Address 192.168.1.x series [12:57] Vivek: i suspect it's something to do with your enviroment, virtualbox bridge? [12:58] Yes [12:58] eth0 is in virtualbox bridge [12:58] eth1 is in internal network mode. [12:58] eth0 has the 10.x.x.x series I.P Address assigned to it [12:59] and eth1 has the 192.168.1.x series I.P Address. [13:30] New bug: #928834 in nova (main) "nova-compute depends on qemu-kvm, even if kvm is not used" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928834 [13:51] good morning [13:58] New bug: #928848 in nova (main) "nova-common installation triggers nova-manage db sync on compute node" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/928848 === dduffey_afk is now known as dduffey [14:01] zul: does bug 892754 impact us? [14:01] Launchpad bug 892754 in glance "test suite doesn't work with sqlalchemy v7" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892754 [14:01] looking [14:02] Daviey: possibly [14:04] Daviey: i think we should be fine [14:05] zul: oh? [14:05] we are already running 0.7.3 on precise [14:05] zul: Precise has v7 of sqlalchemy, no? [14:06] right [14:06] "test suite doesn't work with sqlalchemy v7" [14:06] Daviey: right but according to the pip-requires you need >= 0.6.3 [14:07] https://review.openstack.org/#change,3814 [14:08] zul: Are you following what i am saying? [14:08] Daviey: i might be missing [14:08] precise has 0.7 (aka v7) right? [14:08] right [14:08] "test suite doesn't work with sqlalchemy v7" [14:08] *doesn't* [14:10] oh suck i totally missed that :( [14:10] yeah we need that patch === gustav is now known as beerbro [14:30] hallyn: so I have a bug or two that have slowed me down and I am to tired/stupid to see it atm. I need to get a few hours sleep and then I get back to finding the problem and getting the ppa together for you. [14:39] jjohansen: thanks [14:45] jamespage: excellent blog post, I've totally ripped it off and resyndicated it everywhere [14:45] jcastro: so I noticed - thanks! [15:10] kirkland: byobu-tmux problem [15:10] kirkland: log in as user1, run byobu-tmux. life is good. [15:10] kirland: log in as user2 in another window. run byobu-tmux. frowny face. [15:11] kirland: 5929 mkdir("/tmp//tmux-1001", 0700) = -1 EACCES (Permission denied) === shadeslayer_ is now known as shadeslayer [15:23] changing the orchestra.preseed to 'd-i user-setup/encrypt-home boolean true' causes the installer to stop and complain that empty passwords are not allowed. Anyone seen this before ? [15:24] hallyn: how odd [15:24] hallyn: what's the uid of user1 and user2? 1000 and 1001? [15:25] hallyn: did user1 DoS user2 by mkdir'ing /tmp/tmux-1001? [15:25] hallyn: you can change the tmux socket path with the -S option (see tmux.1) [15:29] kirkland: just reporting what i've found so far. i'll test a fresh install later. didn't explictly do any DoSing. seems like byobu-tmux should pick a socket it can use automatically :) [15:29] if i can reproduce on clean install i'll file a bug [15:29] hallyn: yeah, I've talked to the upstream about this, it is actually pretty easy to annoy another user, though not completely DoS them [15:30] kirkland: Hi [15:32] Vivek: hi [15:33] I am still trying to figure out the reason for those directories in /var/log/orchestra/rsyslog. [15:33] kirkland: Does canonical have any case studies of Orchestra implementations ? === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch [15:38] jamespage, have you been testing orchestra preseeds with encrypted home directories? I'm finding that it stops the automated install. [15:39] Vivek: not that I know of, though as I mentioned last week, I no longer work for Canonical, sorry [15:39] Vivek: the /var/log/orchestra/rsyslog directories are the remote logging information from deployed clients [15:39] Correct. [15:39] Vivek: including the installation logs [15:39] Correct. [15:40] In my case I have used your installation instructions. [15:40] 1) Set up a virtual machine in Virtualbox [15:41] 2) eth0 is bridged to the external world and has an I.P Address in 10.x.x.x range. [15:41] 2) eth1 has an internal network set up in the 192.168.1.x range. [15:41] Nodes are getting commissioned without any issues. [15:41] So far so good. [15:42] Now in /var/log/orchestra/rsyslog/ I am getting directories of the form 10.x.x.x which should not happen as Orchestera is only supposed to commission nodes in the 192.168.1.x series. [15:43] In dnsmasq I have used the interface=eth1 option so no dhcp requests should go via eth0 === jodh is now known as jhunt_ [15:43] Vivek: hmm, well, something's wrong then... as that means that rsyslog is picking up remote system logging from 10.x addresses [15:43] ok. [15:43] Which according to me is a bug. [15:43] Vivek: i really need to pass you over to Daviey and/or roaksoax for help on this [15:44] ok np, I've had my conversations with them earlier today. [15:44] Daviey, roaksoax : Are you folks around ? [15:44] Vivek: I don't know what else i can add. Something is clearly posting logs back to the rsyslog, if we saw them, it would help. [15:45] I can pastebin the logs np [15:45] Which logs do you need ? [15:46] Let me pastebin those logs. [15:49] Daviey: http://paste.debian.net/155584/ [15:49] That is what is done. [15:49] happening rather... [15:50] Vivek: Golly. [15:50] root@orchestra:/var/log/orchestra/rsyslog/2012/02/08/orchestra# ping 10.130.55.205 [15:50] PING 10.130.55.205 (10.130.55.205) 56(84) bytes of data. [15:50] 64 bytes from 10.130.55.205: icmp_req=1 ttl=128 time=0.987 ms [15:50] 64 bytes from 10.130.55.205: icmp_req=2 ttl=128 time=0.922 ms [15:50] Vivek: So, orchestra is the hostname it came from. [15:50] ok... [15:50] i'm going to guess that is localhost of the rsyslog server [15:50] Therefore, orchestra has done nothing incorrect. [15:50] No [15:51] 10.130.55.205 is not the localhost of the rsyslog server [15:51] Vivek: you aren't listening. :) [15:51] The I.P Address is 10.130.55.x but not 205. [15:51] ok [15:51] oh wait [15:51] Vivek: what is 10.130.55.205 [15:51] ? [15:52] It is a machine on my corporate network trying to contact the orchestra server for some reason. [15:52] So what is the problem? [15:52] It is not a node commissioned by orchestra [15:52] Vivek: ignore orchestra.. this is rsyslog [15:52] ok. [15:53] Someone sat in a desk next to you tried to ssh to your orchestra server, right? [15:53] Why are remote servers trying to log to the orchestra syslog ? [15:53] I don't think so [15:53] They are not.. [15:53] Unless the IT department is spying :) [15:53] The log originated FROM localhost. [15:53] ok [15:54] I don't think any attempt was made to ssh to 205 [15:54] My concern is dnsmasq broadcasting still on eth0, a tcmpdump says no.... [15:54] Vivek: You have it the wrong way around... [15:54] ok. [15:54] .205 was trying to ssh into your orchestra server. [15:55] Yes, I got it. That is how remote clients provide the logs to rsyslog. [15:55] Why is .205 trying to ssh into the orchestra server ? [15:55] Vivek: I can book a flight, and conduct a survey around your office if you want? [15:55] lol [15:56] Vivek: find out who has .205, and ask them? [15:56] jdstrand: ping ? [15:56] Yes have 6000 staff so that would not be feasible :) [15:56] Anyways, thanks. [15:59] Let me phrase the question in another way, when a new node comes up, is it possible to view that log some where on orchestra, rsyslog ? [16:00] As far as I know it can be viewed in /var/log/orchestra/rsyslog/ but there I find those 10.x.x.x directories also. [16:01] If i write to parse those logs and automate some action based on those logs which logs should I refer to ensure that a new node has come up ? [16:01] write a script [16:02] Or even pointing me to section of code that creates those logs would be appreciated... [16:02] Anybody know of a good opensource drop box type of tool? I need a way to let users upload large files and share them via link. But we want it on our own systems [16:02] Caribou: hi [16:02] jdstrand: morning [16:03] jdstrand: I have a question for you that should be easy [16:04] jdstrand: when doing NAT through iptables, what is needed to have tftpd packets accepted from the NATted network ? [16:04] I read that nf_nat_ftp & nf_conntrack_ftp modules were needed [16:06] jdstrand: right now, the tftpd daemon gets the request but refuses connection from the NAT address [16:06] rbasak, so for your private cloud issue, lynxman wants there to be an entry for `hostname` in /etc/hosts. [16:06] but we've had repeated issues with doing that. [16:06] Caribou: so nat clients are trying to connect to an un-natted tftpd? [16:06] one way it pisses off some thing, one way it pisses off another. [16:07] jdstrand: what do you mean by "un-natted tftpd" ? [16:07] smoser: it's just so we're in line with the experience we deliver with the server install [16:08] smoser: how about doing it if a hostname is explicitly specified in user-data, but not otherwise? [16:08] Otherwise specifying a hostname with cloud-init is broken [16:08] smoser: I recall we had a talk about this at the rally [16:08] rbasak, then just set 'manage_etc_hosts: localhost' [16:08] and you'll be happy [16:08] or even 'template' i think [16:08] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~cloud-init-dev/cloud-init/trunk/view/head:/doc/examples/cloud-config.txt [16:09] jdstrand: the tftp requests (actually PXE boot requesting pxelinux.0) coming from a 2nd NIC in a NATted subnet [16:09] Caribou: is the tftpd daemon on the same nat network as the clients? [16:10] jdstrand: no, that's the issue [16:10] Aha, I didn't know about this setting. Thanks! [16:10] Caribou: ok, so you see the nat address of the client in the tftpd logs, not the address of the router doing the nating? [16:16] hi all [16:22] koolhead17: Hi [16:22] hi Vivek [16:24] Vivek: I said, those locations get created by rsyslog itself. [16:25] Daviey: I am trying to identify what those machines are by nmap [16:25] Those machines that are trying to ssh [16:25] Vivek: honestly, if you have 6000 staff - and have no way of tracking internal IP addresses back to an owner, you have MUCH bigger problems [16:26] Daviey: Tracking them would involve coordinating with the Internal IT which is again going to be a PITA. [16:26] Daviey: Let me do my homework first :) [16:28] cool [16:31] so what are you tracking Vivek? [16:31] Looks like IT monitoring me :) [16:31] Need to figure that out mate. [16:31] Had a talk with out manager. [16:32] our* [16:32] are you downloding porn at work? [16:32] hey [16:32] No :) [16:32] can someone tell me if this is a 'default' ubuntu user on a new server [16:32] citadel:x:103:112:Citadel system user,,,:/var/lib/citadel:/bin/false [16:33] googled the name, and it comes up with some admin panel ? [16:33] Tixos: where did you got the image? did you check MD5 checksum [16:33] its a dedi, the provider installed it [16:33] and trust me they are useless [16:33] Vivek: better work then downloading poer [16:33] I got the nmap output, the OS is Microsoft Windows. with the open ports they are running. [16:33] smoser: I've tried manage_etc_hosts: template and manage_etc_hosts: localhost but neither seem to have any effect. Is there something I'm missing? [16:34] Tixos: your at wrong place then [16:34] not really [16:34] look at my questions, its perfectly valid here [16:34] also, citadel is in the repos, so if you dont want to help, thats fine [16:34] Tixos: the provider can remaster and upload the image. :) [16:35] afaik during deployment one has to create a user [16:35] you havent even answered my question, im only assuming from your replies that its not default [16:35] Tixos: yes [16:35] there is no home dir for that user [16:36] no home DIR at all infact [16:36] for a user that is... [16:37] Tixos: its a application [16:37] koolhead17: The downloads I do are perfectly legal and done after managements approval. I don't know if using tor is the reason. [16:37] its not installed though > p citadel-client - complete and feature-rich groupware server (command line client) [16:37] no security threat. :) install server like mysql on the host and check /etc/passwd you will see [16:38] In that case I am stopping that too now that IRC SSL ports are open. [16:38] Vivek: will talk tomorrow in office [16:39] which is the correct way to create a user again, useradd or adduser :P [16:39] ive been told off for this before [16:39] zul, smoser So I finally figured out why there is bug 922486. I hope to have spelled out all my findings along with one proposal how to fix it. Based on testing it seems to work well but I guess someone with libvirt experience may want to make sure this is not too much of a hack. [16:39] Launchpad bug 922486 in libvirt "libvirt boot race on xen hypervisor" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922486 [16:41] koolhead17: Yes, in that case IT will have to answer for disrupting my work :) [16:41] koolhead17: Anyways tommorow. [16:42] Fetched 15.4MB in 0s (21.2MB/s) yum === Ursinha-lunch is now known as Ursinha [16:49] hallyn: ^^^ [16:50] smb: it looks fine to me, but i want hallyn's oppinon as well [16:51] adduser or useradd? [16:51] zul, Ah, ok. Sure. Sorry, forgot him as libvirt stuff reviewer [16:52] smb: looking [16:55] seems to make sense, not knowing any of that code. if it fixes it, go for it :) [16:55] zul: let's hope we don't forget that fix if we go with 0.9.9 [16:56] Tried to be careful and have it in the ubuntu patches section with that debdiff. Cannot upload it though. :) [16:57] smb: no it's just that i already cut a 0.9.9 candidate, just have to not forget about your patch :) [16:57] smb: you don't have upload rights? [16:58] hallyn, nope. not beyond kernel (so only harmless things) [16:58] heh [16:58] smb: so that debdiff has been tested, and should be pushed? [16:59] hallyn, Hm, I tested the version with a lot more debugging in it. Give me a sec, I have not yet tested the compile of the debdiff [16:59] ok. your comment in #6 also seems sensible, just based on a glance [17:01] hallyn, Only that change I did never make to test it. Just looked a bit odd, and I was wondering why there was no real error message in the logs [17:06] hallyn, Hm, think I need a bit more testing. Noticed some error messages when booting and am not sure they are because of my change... === koolhead17 is now known as koolhead17|zzZZ [17:16] hallyn, Ok, seems the "ERROR: Can't find hypervisor information in sysfs!" when booting in non-xen mode is independent to my change in libvirt. So it looks ok to upload it [17:18] smb: the exact debdiff in comment 5, no changes? [17:19] i'll toss in the new 'start on' at the same time then [17:19] hallyn, yes exactly that [17:20] ok, will push, thanks [17:20] hallyn, thanks for uploading. I'll pick up the results tomorrow [17:27] pushed - gnight [17:29] laters [17:29] & [17:51] jamespage: here? [18:02] save the earth! [18:02] oops, wrong chan :) [18:02] i need to better control my windows! :) [18:03] (you know, to reduce wasted packets, which waste energy) [18:04] is anyone familiar with bcache? [18:08] i'm trying to figure out how to install http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/t/ttf2pt1/ [18:08] it doesn't seem to be a part of a package in apt [18:10] zul: have you had a chance to test libvirt 0.9.9? [18:11] i'm going to fire off a qa-regression-test against it i guess [18:15] hallyn: yeah i tested it a little last night, ill do some more tonight === koolhead17|zzZZ is now known as koolhead17 [18:36] hallyn: it looks like you can't SSH into the cloud images when run under LXC [18:37] hallyn: I'm looking now. The root cause is that SSH keys are not being generated on boot within LXC [18:37] utlemming: it *might* be due to a missing upstart event bc of something that doesn't happen in containers (yet). [18:49] hallyn: it looks like sense cloud-init is not seeing a data-source, it does not generate the SSH Keys [18:51] utlemming: what does cloud-init use as a data-source when booting in a container? [18:51] (ive got no idea, just curious) [18:52] adam_g: it looks for the 169.???.???.??? address [18:52] utlemming: thats the ec2 metadata service [18:53] utlemming: when we boot cloud-init on hardware in teh CI lab, we're injecting metadata and userdata into /var/lib/cloud/seed/nocloud-net/ after installation, which gets picked up on first boot by cloud-init [18:55] utlemming: http://paste.ubuntu.com/834299/ http://paste.ubuntu.com/834302/ [18:56] * utlemming looks [18:59] hallyn: I'll have to revist that script later, but I think we'll end up with ubucloud and ubucloud-local, where the ubucloud-local unclouds the image. [19:02] utlemming: you mean the templates? If so, we can just add '--local' to the template-specific flags [19:02] though i'd rather to '--ec2', and have local be the default [19:03] so, 'lxc-create -t ubuntu-cloud -n cloud1 -- --ec2' [19:03] hallyn: yes...and I like that [19:03] if no ec2, then always create the ssh keys, and don't waste my time looking for 169.* [19:05] hallyn: although, I would have a generic label like "--no-cloud" [19:05] er, "--cloud" [19:05] hallyn: new libvirt looks ok so far [19:08] utlemming: that's good. how involved is the mangling we have to do in the rootfs? [19:09] zul: qrt tests going ok so far. though ih ad to edit the qatest/qatest.xml to not specify /usr/bin/qemu as the emulator [19:09] hallyn: it should be easy [19:09] hallyn: and less mangling than you'd think [19:09] hallyn: ah cool [19:10] hallyn: let me test my fix === tgardner is now known as tgardner-afk [19:36] zul: actually, virsh appears to be hung doing an attach-interface (as part of the qrt) [19:36] hallyn: thats not good [19:37] hi [19:37] i'm using a nfs-export from my ubuntu server on my dvb reciever for timeshift. it happens sporadic that the video freezes and i see at that moment a high usage of kworker [19:37] is this an issue in anyway? [19:43] hallyn: ETA for upstart upload is 5pm eastern (so I believe 4pm for you) [19:45] stgraber: exciting! [19:47] hallyn: do you already have a lxcguest-less LXC source package? [19:48] no [19:49] stgraber: should we create an empty lxcguest package for it? Or just yank it out of the source pkg? or have lxc now conflict with old lxcguest? [19:50] hallyn: well, upstart will conflict with lxcguest, so there's no way anyone could install the package ;) [19:50] hallyn: I guess we should just drop it entirely from the source and update the template to only install it pre-precise [19:50] then file a binary removal bug to get lxcguest out of the archive to avoid having it included in the cloud images [19:52] that should take care of all the use cases I can think of [19:57] hallyn, did you hvae a questionon generation of ssh keys in cloud images ? [19:59] cloud-images don't have ssh keys generated, and don't generate them unless there is a instance-id found. [19:59] we maybe should fix that so that they generate the keys anywhay. [19:59] smoser: I did...I'm patching the lxc-ubuntu-cloud to take care of that [20:00] wait... [20:00] no, lets do it right. [20:01] cloud-init should do that as leaving no ssh keys is quite generally useless. [20:01] what did you to disable cloud-init? [20:01] smoser: I'm preseeding some meta-data [20:02] smoser: and allowing users to define host name, instance-id and user-data [20:02] smoser: which I think is valuable to the end user [20:03] yeah, that makes sense. but keys should get generated anyway. [20:04] stgraber: were you queueing up any lxc changes right now? [20:05] hallyn: nope [20:07] hallyn: here's my patch for lxc-ubuntu-cloud, http://paste.ubuntu.com/834391/ [20:09] utlemming: ok, thanks [20:09] smoser: ^ that fits in with what you want (always generating keys) too? [20:10] hallyn, but wait. [20:10] hostname ? [20:10] isnt that non-sensical? [20:11] or conflicting with an lxxc container setting ? [20:11] yo! I'm wondering if the scripts used to build HVM AMI ami-976da7fe (099720109477/ubuntu/images-sandbox/hvm/ubuntu-lucid-daily-amd64-server-20110930-backport-kernel-oneiric) are available somewhere. I can't seem to find anything for that in the ec2-publishing-scripts or automated-ec2-builds repos /cc smoser [20:12] afaik, it doesn't [20:12] danp, they are there. [20:12] "hvmify" [20:12] danp: the EC2 registration tools are NDA for HVM though [20:12] thats the only difference between the hvm and the instance-store. [20:12] er.. i meant to say hvm and ebs. [20:13] but, also, what utlemming said. [20:13] but more than the NDA bit is your account wont have credentials to say --virtualization-type=hvm [20:13] you mean the ability to directly register images as HVM? [20:13] on a register. [20:13] yeah. [20:13] now... [20:13] if you want to try to be tricky.. [20:13] I don't believe I need that if I do some hackery and run CreateImage against a running/stopped instance [20:13] smoser: utlemming: no, --hostname/-H doesn't conflict with an arg, but it does conflict with an option you can specify inthe config file [20:14] (i've wanted someone to do this, and only tried once or twice because failures cost $2.8 or whatever it is). [20:15] http://paste.ubuntu.com/834399/ [20:15] danp, i recently did that on HP public cloud, which basically replaced a running oneiric instance with a precise instance. [20:16] you could follow that and get into a root fs from an ephemeral disk and populate the clean root ebs. [20:16] but the times i've tried, there was mysterious failure [20:17] hallyn, right. which doesn't make much sense. and cloud-init will read `hostname` fine. so i dont think you nee dthat [20:17] utlemming, you have funny indentation in that [20:17] smoser: my plan has been to run a cc1.4xl using the AWS AMI, stop it, detach the root EBS, attach a prepped EBS at /dev/sda1 (can't attach to just /dev/sda), then run CreateImage against it [20:17] smoser: keep the rest? [20:18] danp, yeah, that did not work for me. [20:18] it does seem like it should [20:18] and i'm interested in knowing if it does for you. [20:18] could probably ask AWS for the ability to register HVM directly as well. but it would be nice to not need that [20:18] hallyn, well, do you pick up a dependency on 'bc' for that ? [20:19] danp, i honestly do not know anything about this, but i suspected when my start/stop/detach/attach/register failed, that the failure was intentional [20:19] stgraber: note that we have things like net-device-added lo which still could stand to have lxcguest [20:20] hallyn: not in precise though [20:20] hallyn, other comments on that patch there are to not use full paths to files [20:20] smoser: yeah, my guess would be not being able to attach the partitioned EBS to /dev/sda. it shows up in the AWS AMI DescribeImage block device mapping as /dev/sda1 though. not sure [20:21] trust PATH [20:22] smoser: utlemming: anything wrong with just uuidgen | cut -c -8 ? [20:22] smoser: please forgive my bzr ignorance, I've run `bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-on-ec2/ubuntu-on-ec2/ec2-publishing-scripts` and `bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-on-ec2/vmbuilder/automated-ec2-builds` and I don't see hvmify in either of those [20:22] stgraber: not for runlevel 2, but ther emight be something out there waiting for lo? or not? [20:23] danp, its part of ec2-image2ebs [20:23] got it. thanks! [20:23] hallyn: all initscripts I saw so far are explicitly ignoring lo for net-device-up [20:24] ok [20:24] hallyn: I'd really like to see lxcguest go away completely, if that becomes a problem, I'd rather have the hack part of ifupdown/upstart than in lxcguest [20:24] excellent [20:24] then away it goes [20:24] yeah! [20:24] can anyone explain why i can read paste.ubuntu.com jsut fine, but when i hit 'downlaod as text' i have to go through auth? [20:26] IIRC it's to avoid using paste.ubuntu.com for file storage [20:26] by making it difficult to retrieve the raw data [20:30] smoser: I see now. I was hoping to find a script that installed the backported kernel and all that as well. would that have been done with the way these tools were run to create that image? [20:32] is uuid-runtime always present? [20:33] danp, well we dont install a backported kernel. [20:33] but just mount the image chroot (modify /etc/resolv.conf) and apt-get install stuff [20:45] smoser: oh, but it looks like this is lucid with a kernel PPA added and linux-image-3.0.0-12-virtual installed from there. was wondering exactly how that was done so I could replicate it as closely as possible [20:48] ah. you booted the lucid sandbox one i uploaded once. [20:49] i created that like this: [20:49] http://paste.ubuntu.com/834442/ [20:49] smoser: yeah. that's the only lucid HVM AMI available, right? [20:49] outstanding! thank you very much [20:49] yes, but note the 'sandbox' in its name [20:50] understood [20:55] anyone happen to know the significance of the difference in the return code of the same 'ip addr add' command (2 vs 254) on two different systems: http://paste.ubuntu.com/834454/ [20:56] glancing thru the iproute source, i was only to find this :) http://paste.ubuntu.com/834456/ [21:02] hallyn: regarding uudigen....I really don't have much preference, just generating a random id [21:03] utlemming: cool, will do the shorter thing then [21:03] waiting to test (libc6 upgrade is slowing me down) [21:45] hallyn: lxcguest-free world -15min ;) [22:02] hallyn: it's upstart o'clock ;) uploading now [22:05] hallyn: uploaded [22:10] how do I remove md3 and add the slices to md2 to increase the raid10? [22:10] md2 : active raid10 sdg1[4] sdc1[0] sdd1[1] sdh1[5] sdf1[3] sde1[2] [22:10] md3 : active raid10 sdh2[3] sdf2[1] sdg2[2] sde2[0] [22:21] stgraber: sorry, how does http://people.canonical.com/~serge/lxc.debdiff look? [22:23] zul: hm, that test also fails with 0.9.8 [22:23] zul: so, if libvirt is treating you all right today and tomorrow... maybe we should push 0.9.9. [22:24] i havent had any problems with lxc i havent tried with kvm yet [22:24] ok. [22:25] utlemming: /etc/apt/sources.list has http://ubuntu-mirror.localdomain/ubuntu . that's kinda useless in no-cloud situation [22:25] hallyn: yes it does [22:25] s/does/is [22:26] what's the easiest way to have it use deafult mirror there you think? [22:26] /etc/cloud/templates/sources.list.tmpl [22:26] ? [22:26] hallyn: well, cloud-init is the one doing it, so I think a cloud-config line [22:27] that would look like what? [22:27] hallyn: one minute... [22:28] hallyn: right under my "#cloud-config:" line, you want to add, "apt_mirror: " [22:28] hallyn: methinks that reading the host machines /etc/apt/sources.lists and fetching the URL out of there would be the most prudent course of action [22:33] utlemming: that seems a bit fragile (who knows which line to use). There is a MIRROR option in /etc/default/lxc. Use that if set, else use archive.ubuntu.com? [22:34] hallyn: I like that idea. [22:34] Hi all. I'm using a preseed file to automate my Ubuntu installation for a bunch of computers. Everything works wonderfully, but I'm looking for a strategy to give each computer a unique hostname automatically. Anyone do something like this ever? Possibly based off of the MAC address? [22:35] utlemming: testing, will show you debdiff before i push [22:35] hallyn: sounds good [22:36] How can I set up shared directories in pure-ftpd-mysql? [22:44] hallyn: sorry for the delay, was dealing with upstart FTBFS because of the new libc ;) [22:44] hallyn: looking now [22:47] stgraber: fwiw i'm stil making changes to the lxc-ubuntu-cloud template, but not touch lxcguest [22:49] hallyn: ok. The diff looks good, I'll just check with the actual code next to it though ;) [22:51] stgraber: ? [22:51] hallyn: right, looks good (wanted to check what else was in that else/elsif and make sure it was indeed only the code installing lxcguest) [22:57] ah ok [23:08] hallyn: new libnih was uploaded which once build will fix upstart's own build, so in an hour or so everything should be built [23:08] hallyn: upstart built fine on i386 though, so you can use that for testing (once it's published) === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away [23:38] utlemming: http://people.canonical.com/~serge/lxc.debdiff works for me (tm) === sixstringsg|away is now known as sixstringsg [23:40] hallyn: looks good to me [23:41] stgraber: so I'm pushing lxc? [23:42] hallyn: yep, I expect upstart amd64 to start building in the next 10min or so [23:45] lxc is away [23:53] hallyn: cool! [23:58] stgraber: bug 929086 has me confused [23:58] Launchpad bug 929086 in lxc "Missing depends: dnsmasq" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/929086 [23:59] (it *is* listed in Depends) [23:59] hallyn: yeah, doesn't make any sense :)