[00:05] <bigcalm> It works!
[00:05] <bigcalm> I sleep!
[00:09] <zleap> ok
[00:17] <directhex> windows for servers? lolz
[06:05] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Ubuntu Accomplishments Video Demo - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/02/10/ubuntu-accomplishments-video-demo/
[08:14] <diplo> Morning all
[08:14] <daubers> Morning
[08:34] <mattt> morning morning
[08:35] <daubers> o/
[09:23] <diplo> oimon, gitorious.org/owncloud has a Android App
[09:23] <diplo> Will take a look later and let you know!
[09:37] <gord_> hrm, dejadup really can't do backups over ssh without asking for your password
[09:39] <gordonjcp> gord: ssh keys?
[09:41] <gord> gordonjcp, yup
[09:53] <oimon> diplo: cool
[09:54] <oimon> i'm on u1 for the tomboy sync, but my job changes as of monday and i may be working a lot from laptop a lot and need cloud sync
[09:55] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:57] <aspirin> hi
[09:57] <brobostigon> hi
[09:57] <s-fox> hi
[09:57] <brobostigon> hi
[09:57] <oimon> hi#
[09:57] <oimon> doh
[09:57] <brobostigon> moo
[09:57] <oimon> you're up early brobostigon
[09:57] <aspirin> anyone could help how to sync epub books from ubuntu to ipad?
[09:58] <brobostigon> oimon: it is 10am, i normally come on about this time dont i. ?
[09:58] <oimon> brobostigon: i realise i am time shifting today cos my train was excessively delayed
[09:58] <oimon> i'm thinking its 9am
[09:58] <brobostigon> oimon: ah, i see, :(
[09:59] <oimon> could be my last day here for a long while
[09:59] <brobostigon> why ?
[10:00] <oimon> got pulled onto another department for a bit
[10:00] <diplo> Got it installed and logged into my local owncloud
[10:00] <diplo> Can't see it does much yet though
[10:00] <diplo> :)
[10:00] <oimon> won't have much privacy or spare time
[10:01] <gord> aspirin, best thing i can suggest is calibre
[10:01] <brobostigon> oimon: eeek, good luck.
[10:01] <gord> no idea if it works with ipads
[10:01] <oimon> yeah brobostigon no extra moneys or aything
[10:01] <brobostigon> oimon: :(
[10:02] <aspirin> oh right i remember usinit in windows, thanks alot
[10:05] <oimon> guys, have a question about those scammers who ring up "you have a virus on your PC, press super-R"
[10:06] <oimon> my mum admitted she'd spoken to them. she says she didn't give credit card details - what else do they try and do?
[10:07] <daubers> They might try and get you to install something nasty, or go to a nasty filled website
[10:08] <oimon> she told them she had antivirus, but i'm not sure if she knows exactly what happened on the PC (i.e. did she give remote acecss to someone)
[10:09] <popey> they usually ask you to go to event viewer and just read out some numbers
[10:09] <popey> most of them dont actually get you to install stuff
[10:09] <popey> they just want you to pay for their stuff
[10:10] <DJones> oimon: They tried to get my dad to connect to a website which would give them remote desktop so they could run a scanner
[10:10] <oimon> popey: thanks, that tallies with something i'm reading on another site - she remembers that they said windows key+R
[10:11] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSFRtPus3DQ&feature=plcp&context=C3e52416UDOEgsToPDskJvZXCmlPIPvCP4Www6VdmK
[10:11] <popey> guy managed to record the call and screencast what the guy was getting him to do
[10:12] <popey> kids school is closed so they're home today
[10:14] <oimon> popey: unity :D
[10:16] <popey> oimon: hmm?
[10:16] <oimon> the guy is on ubuntu with win VM :D
[10:16] <oimon> wasn't expecting that
[10:17] <popey> ah ☺
[10:17] <popey> he does lots of ubuntu videos
[10:18] <gord> hrm, i screwed up the dash code and made the dash about 18 pixels high. been using it like that for the past day and i must say, does pretty well for not being able to see the results, the first one is almost always what i wanted
[10:19] <gordonjcp> heh
[10:27] <JamesTait> Oh, and good morning, world! Happy Friday! :)
[10:27] <popey> YES!
[10:29] <bigcalm> Yay Friday
[10:29] <gord> boo, wish it was wednesday
[10:29] <bigcalm> Hi peeps :)
[10:41] <webpigeon_laptop> ls
[10:41] <webpigeon_laptop> whoops x.x
[10:41] <kirrus> gord: why, are you going on holiday?
[10:41] <gord> nope
[10:41] <kirrus> webpigeon_laptop: better than typing your password into a screen you think is locked :/
[10:41] <gord> feature freeze next week
[10:42] <webpigeon_laptop> kirrus: very true :P
[10:42] <kirrus> gord: cool. Do you know where the discussion on replacing mysql with maria went in the end?
[10:42] <gord> no idea
[10:42] <webpigeon_laptop> kirrus: although have done that before - Luckly a text editor had focus
[10:43] <andylockran> hey guys
[10:43] <andylockran> how does things?
[10:43] <popey> I do not know. how does things andylockran ?
[10:43] <webpigeon_laptop> Hey andylockran, things does good :), yourself?
[10:45] <andylockran> thigns does good with me
[10:45] <andylockran> aside from my typing, which seems a bit out
[10:46] <andylockran> anyone use the symfony framework?
[10:47] <diplo> andylockran, I think bigcalm or BigRedS do
[10:47] <diplo> Whoever runs myrant.net :)
[10:47]  * diplo forgets
[10:47] <popey> bigcalm
[10:48]  * bigcalm looks up
[10:49] <bigcalm> Ah, yes, hello from Symfony land :D
[10:50] <bigcalm> Wow, somebody remembered that I run myrant.net? :D
[10:50] <bigcalm> andylockran: sup?
[10:54] <davmor2> morning all
[10:54] <davmor2> czajkowski: prod
[10:55] <bigcalm> Hi davmor2
[10:55] <czajkowski> davmor2: in 2 days in a row early
[10:56] <bigcalm> davmor2: I gave up with PHP, now coding in vb.net
[10:56] <davmor2> czajkowski: only  a few minutes
[10:56] <davmor2> bigcalm: Quitter :P
[10:57] <czajkowski> bigcalm: go straight to the naughty step, vb!
[10:57] <bigcalm> :D
[10:57] <bigcalm> czajkowski: I've never felt so dirty in my whole career
[10:57] <czajkowski> bigcalm: consider yourself moved to the step fr good mister!
[10:58] <bigcalm> :O
[10:58] <bigcalm> It's crowded on here
[10:59] <BadgerUK> hello!
[10:59] <BadgerUK> im trying to follow the instructions, create bash script, into bin
[11:00] <BadgerUK> ive pasted the script into an empty file in kate
[11:00] <BadgerUK> now im trying to save into bin
[11:00] <BadgerUK> but presumably i dont have permission
[11:00] <BigRedS> BadgerUK: what're 'the instructions' and do you know which 'bin' you're putting them in?
[11:00] <BigRedS> it should normally be the bin in your home directory
[11:00] <BadgerUK> http://blog.deadlypenguin.com/blog/2011/05/03/using-meld-with-git-diff/
[11:00] <BigRedS> that one you'll have permissions to write to
[11:00] <BadgerUK> yeah the one in hme directory
[11:01] <bigcalm> BadgerUK: if it doesn't have to be a system wide script, you could set up a bin directory in your home dir. Include the path in your .bashrc
[11:01] <BigRedS> yeah, stick it in ~/bin
[11:01] <BigRedS> bigcalm: ~/bin is in put into $PATH if it exists
[11:01] <bigcalm> BigRedS: goodo
[11:02] <BadgerUK> k, i am unable to paste anything into /bin or save
[11:02] <bigcalm> Yes, use the bin dir in your home directory
[11:02] <bigcalm> If it doesn't exist, create it
[11:03] <bigcalm> Note that ~/ is a shortcut to your own home dir
[11:03] <BadgerUK> aha
[11:03] <BadgerUK> im from a windows background if u hadnt already guessed :'(
[11:03] <bigcalm> For me, cd ~/ puts me in /home/iain
[11:03] <bigcalm> We have to start somewhere :)
[11:04] <BadgerUK> lol
[11:04] <bigcalm> Also, please note that filenames and directory names are case sensitive in Linux
[11:04] <BadgerUK> so the bash script is in my bin in my home directory, now im goign to change my git config to use the script
[11:04] <BadgerUK> how does the git config file know the bash script is in my home bin?
[11:04] <BadgerUK> instructions are: [diff]
[11:04] <BadgerUK> external = git-meld
[11:04] <bigcalm> You'll also want to chmod the script so that you can run it without having to call it with sh
[11:05] <BadgerUK> i think i know how to do that from playing with py exe
[11:06] <BadgerUK> the external bit in external = git-meld. How does that know where external is?
[11:09] <ormiret> I think external will be the name it is using to refer to an external program. The git-meld part will be what it needs to find. If it uses a normal environment to run the external command then it will search all the directories in your PATH environment variable for that command (and should find it in ~/bin)
[11:09] <BadgerUK> ah
[11:10] <BadgerUK> thanx guys
[11:11] <BadgerUK> one day, many months from now; i'll be able to use linux aswel as windows
[11:11] <gord> awww, mark didn't put real <blink> tags in his post
[11:12] <popey> ☺
[11:16]  * bigcalm prods andylockran 
[11:29] <BadgerUK> k, so i made a bash script called git-meld.sh, made it executable, put in it in ~/bin, updated my git config file to [diff] external = git-meld, and then tried git diff
[11:29] <BadgerUK> i get the following error $ git diff
[11:29] <BadgerUK> error: cannot run git-meld: No such file or directory
[11:29] <BadgerUK> and as stated, im trying to follow these instructions http://blog.deadlypenguin.com/blog/2011/05/03/using-meld-with-git-diff/
[11:30] <BadgerUK> how do i specify the path for that script?
[11:31] <kirrus> BadgerUK: try renaming git-meld.sh to 'git-meld'
[11:31] <BadgerUK> in bin?
[11:31] <kirrus> aye
[11:31] <BadgerUK> cheers
[11:31] <BadgerUK> will it keep its exectuable status if i change it?
[11:32] <BadgerUK> it didn't work
[11:32] <BadgerUK> same error
[11:32] <BadgerUK> error: cannot run git-meld: No such file or directory
[11:34] <bigcalm> BadgerUK: if you open a terminal and run this, what do you get? echo $PATH
[11:34] <BadgerUK> /usr/lib/lightdm/lightdm:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games
[11:35] <BadgerUK> what purpose does path serve?
[11:35] <bigcalm> iain@revo:~$ echo $PATH
[11:35] <bigcalm> /home/iain/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games
[11:35] <bigcalm> Mine includes the bin dir in my home dir
[11:36] <BadgerUK> but why have $PATH; is it like a shortcut area for programs to use?
[11:37] <bigcalm> It is the list of dirs that will be looked in (in order) for a given command
[11:37] <BadgerUK> cool
[11:37] <BadgerUK> thank you
[11:37] <BadgerUK> big help xxx
[11:40] <andylockran> back in 5
[11:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> Cool - Just got a letter from son's school. Tickets for Saracens vs Quins at Wembley (£15 adults and £5 kids). Looks like a good day out :-)
[11:41] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer: your kids go to school today?
[11:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yeah
[11:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> No probs.
[11:42] <popey> ours didnt, school closed
[11:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> WTF?
[11:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> There was only an inch or so of snow
[11:42] <popey> yeah
[11:42] <popey> its at the bottom of a hill, snow makes it somewhat annoying ☺
[11:45] <AlanBell> popey: no kids here
[11:49] <bigcalm> Somebody has been able to insert a google ads script into a client's WordPress theme. As I've got the account id for the google ads account, is it possible to report this to Google somehow?
[12:04] <kirrus> bigcalm: http://www.abuse.net/lookup.phtml?domain=google.com
[12:05] <bigcalm> Ah, ta
[12:19] <BigRedS> y
[12:19] <BigRedS> whoop. Wrong pane
[12:22] <kirrus> BigRedS: seems to be going around today
[12:23] <gord> hrm, new gpu did not come with a little screw to screw it in... i'm sure it will be fine not screwed down.. yeah
[12:29] <popey> until you wibble the dvi port
[12:29] <popey> and it pops out of the pcie slot and locks the machine
[12:40]  * smittix is back to normal woo
[12:42] <gord> popey, well the last gpu that i've had for about two years never got overly wibbled, so maybe it'll be okay ;)
[12:45] <czajkowski> dear software center why must you crash when I want to install items, not making my day run smoothly!
[12:52] <bigcalm> czajkowski: time to change to linux mint
[12:53] <czajkowski> I only have mints after dinner
[12:53] <popey> filed a bug czajkowski ?
[12:55] <czajkowski> popey: aye just about to do so, kept happening last night in the middle of CC meeting with chrome crashing and trying to install FF
[12:55] <popey> firefox should be installed by default
[12:55] <popey> also, if you have removed firefox chances are you have probably removed ubuntu-desktop, so may be missing other good stuff
[12:55] <davmor2> czajkowski: add you ~/.cache/software-center.log to the report
[12:56] <czajkowski> aye I suaully remove it tbh
[12:56] <czajkowski> hmm it crashed saying didnt install FF but actually did
[12:57] <popey> bet if you run "sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop^" (with the caret, without the quotes) it pulls in loads of stuff
[12:57] <bigcalm> Oh, hello mr snow
[12:58] <czajkowski> popey: ahh ok will try that
[13:02] <czajkowski> 115 packages to install
[13:02] <czajkowski> lovely!
[13:13] <popey> now.. don't remove firefox ☺
[13:15] <czajkowski> I know.... I just don't like it, it's in the same category as green veggies, I'll eat em if forced!
[13:15] <popey> dont use it then?
[13:15] <popey> I have loads of stuff installed i never use
[13:15] <czajkowski> popey: aye, I'm just a lil odd in my organising of my machine, i tend not to have things installed that I don't use.  but tis back now so hopeully things wont keep crashing
[13:16] <popey> well its not that firefox was missing that was the problem, its that it takes out ubuntu-desktop which is annoying
[13:16] <popey> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/stats-show-ubuntu-not-losing-ground-to-linux-mint/
[13:16] <popey> made me smile
[13:16] <andylockran> bigcalm: why the prod?
[13:24] <ali1234> popey: they don't mention that in jan 2011 ubuntu had 33M hits in those statistics
[13:25] <ali1234> and therefore unity drove away  around 10% of ubuntu's users by their own metric
[13:25] <czajkowski> popey: aye tis rather unfortunate it removes the others, but lesson learnt
[13:26] <popey> i dont believe the growth would be linear ali1234
[13:26] <ali1234> if it was linear i could just look at the october result and say it drove away 50% of users
[13:27] <popey> i dont believe it's as simple as that
[13:27] <ali1234> what is it then?
[13:27] <TheOpenSourcerer> One other interesting thing to note is the number of 10.04, 10.10 visits vs 11.10 (why no 11.04?) Anyway - stats are easy to interpret however you want to ;-)
[13:28] <ali1234> probably because 11.04 was shockingly bad?
[13:28] <popey> I am not drawing any conclusions from those numbers at all
[13:28] <popey> it just made me smile
[13:28] <popey> there's too many variables involved
[13:28] <ali1234> i would be surprised if anyone was still using it the week after 11.10 was released
[13:28] <popey> but the number of ubuntu users (I believe) doesn't waver around in the millions per month
[13:29] <ali1234> i think there is an extremely high amount of churn
[13:29] <ali1234> with all operating systems
[13:29] <ali1234> the question is only do people churn in faster than they churn out?
[13:29] <popey> amongst a certain set of the echo chamber of geeks on the internet, maybe
[13:30] <ali1234> no, it's more like "among anyone under the age of 25"
[13:30] <ali1234> considering that linux, by those stats, is still 0.5%
[13:30] <davmor2> ali1234: we get it you don't like unity, there are also loads of people that do, you can't base everything on your opinion,  the most interesting thing I see from the stats is both projects got additional hits which is good for Linux as a whole
[13:31] <ali1234> davmor2: ubuntu didn't get additional hits, they are down 10% since this time last year. that's a fact demonstrated by the stats, not my opinion
[13:32] <sagaci> stats of one site
[13:32] <sagaci> must be legit
[13:32] <ali1234> anyway, as i was saying, if 1 in 10 computer owners tries out ubuntu for 1 month each year, that's 0.5% already
[13:32] <AlanBell> well it is a somewhat better site than distrowatch to base stats on!
[13:33] <ali1234> so as you can see, it doesn't take very much *constant* users to keep these statistics at the current level
[13:34] <ali1234> and there is no way to measure how long people stay for
[13:35] <ali1234> perhaps you could count the number of distro upgrades somehow
[13:36] <ali1234> probably not accurate tho, i know i like to do a fresh install rather than upgrades
[13:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> Someone should write a "phone home" app for the Linux kernel ;-)
[13:37] <popey> i think we do count distro upgrades
[13:38] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer: been suggested by a lot of people over the years
[13:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> I _was_ joking.
[13:38] <popey> they werent
[13:41] <gord> i'd like to write a firefox survey like thing for ubuntu sometime
[13:41] <gord> would be very useful
[13:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyone ever come across any Open Source Physical Security Software systems? i.e. for building access etc.
[13:44]  * bigcalm shivers his way back into the channel
[13:47] <ali1234> gord: like test pilot? that's what i was saying the other day...
[13:48] <daubers> TheOpenSourcerer: No commercial ones
[13:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> I found this, which suggests not, as the author is an "expert" and this is less than 12months old. :-(
[13:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> Phwoar... http://www.greatcurryrecipes.net/2012/02/10/how-to-make-british-indian-restaurant-bir-style-onion-bhajis/
[13:53] <TheOpenSourcerer> I love onion bhajis :-D
[13:55] <daubers> TheOpenSourcerer: The various hackspaces have ones, but not off the shelf type things
[14:23] <davmor2> mrevell: by the way bzr add has fixed everything I am once again a happy bunny
[14:24] <mrevell> davmor2, Great!
[14:25] <ali1234> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amam7h6Tso0TdDl5UGtHempRWkRtQUhNRnVhOXp3ZlE#gid=0
[14:25] <davmor2> mrevell: out of interest is there a nice overview somewhere of all the commands?  By nice I mean not man-esque
[14:26] <mrevell> davmor2, Not sure. otp just now.
[14:27] <davmor2> haha I would be more surprised if you weren't :)
[14:29] <ali1234> i must admit that even i didn't expect that strong of a trend
[14:59] <popey> ali1234: didnt we have a bug in firefox recently where we were mis-identifying ourselves?
[14:59] <ali1234> no idea
[14:59] <ali1234> what was it misidentifying as?
[14:59] <popey> pretty sure we went for a while with linux in the UA but missed the ubuntu release or something
[14:59] <popey> i cant remember the details
[15:00] <popey> but it made it harder to identify ubuntu users as a result, which _could_ be a contributing factor to the stats being skewy
[15:00] <popey> *shrug*
[15:00] <ali1234> unless that bug was for pretty much all the 10.04 release, it doesn't look good
[15:01] <popey> bug 709125
[15:01] <popey> hmm
[15:01] <ali1234> looks like that was fixed before release?
[15:01] <popey> not sure thats the one
[15:01] <popey> meh
[15:02] <Josssse> Hey. I'm trying to configure keyboard shortcuts for xubuntu. Does anyone know the commands for volume controlling?
[15:02] <ali1234> still doesn't explain the unprecidented amount of users clinging to 10.04 :)
[15:03] <diplo> It's an LTS maybe ?
[15:03] <diplo> I still run 10.04 on my revo as it works well
[15:03] <hamitron> LTS is my only reason ;)
[15:03] <ali1234> ah yeah 9.04 wasn't a LTS
[15:03] <hamitron> pure laziness :/
[15:04] <ali1234> i wonder why they don't have stats for 9.10
[15:04] <ali1234> also notice that the recent upswing in the last few months appears to be caused almost entirely by 10.04 users
[15:05] <hamitron> upswing?
[15:05] <ali1234> hamitron: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amam7h6Tso0TdDl5UGtHempRWkRtQUhNRnVhOXp3ZlE#gid=0
[15:06] <hamitron> ty
[15:06] <ali1234> there is a lot of data missing. it's very unscientific
[15:06] <ali1234> but a swing like that isn't random error
[15:07] <hamitron> isn't 11.10 supported till around the same date as 10.04, but with newer software?
[15:07] <ali1234> no?
[15:07] <hamitron> 3 years for 10.04
[15:07] <hamitron> thought it was 18 months for others
[15:07] <ali1234> 5 years for LTS, 2 years for the rest, except for some packages which are 6 months
[15:08] <hamitron> 3 years for LTS on the desktop
[15:08] <popey> 5 now
[15:08] <hamitron> oh, nice
[15:08] <popey> (for 12.04)
[15:08] <hamitron> but for 10.04 it is 3 still?
[15:08] <popey> i think so
[15:08] <ali1234> also the main difference between 10.04 and 11.10 is 10.04 has gnome 2, 11.10 has unity or gnome shell
[15:08] <hamitron> 11.10 is up-to-date too
[15:09] <diplo> popey, what are you running ony our revo's now ?
[15:09] <diplo> I've debated about running XBMC's new XBMCuntu
[15:09] <ali1234> i don't trust my html scraper tbh
[15:09] <ali1234> i might have to recompile these numbers by hand
[15:10] <hamitron> but for someone who wants ubuntu on a desktop, most will choose the one with the latest software if they are supported till the same time..... is my point
[15:10] <ali1234> well that's not what these statistics say
[15:11] <jpds> There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
[15:11] <ali1234> will be interesting to see what happens in 2013 :)
[15:11] <hamitron> I'm sort of interested in 12.04 again now
[15:11] <hamitron> :/
[15:11] <hamitron> 5 years support is ace
[15:12] <ali1234> do you even have any computers that can run it?
[15:12] <hamitron> :-o
[15:12] <hamitron> I got maybe 5 or 6
[15:12] <ali1234> maybe you could make a cluster to network render the UI
[15:12] <hamitron> hehe
[15:12] <hamitron> well, nothing to stop me using slower machines as thin clients?
[15:13] <ali1234> uh... nothing except accelerated graphics are required
[15:13] <hamitron> oh
[15:13] <ali1234> unless you want to use -2d
[15:13] <ali1234> or gnome shell fallback
[15:13] <hamitron> well, I may upgrade
[15:13] <hamitron> ;/
[15:14] <hamitron> I've already decided older machines are staying on something different for now
[15:14] <hamitron> as there is no point trying to get something like ubuntu working on machines it is not targeted for
[15:15] <hamitron> so what gpu will it need?
[15:16] <ali1234> a fast one with open source drivers
[15:16] <ali1234> ie one that doesn't exist
[15:16] <hamitron> hehe
[15:18] <hamitron> wonder why 8.04 has an increase
[15:18] <ali1234> that's probably in line with random error
[15:18] <ali1234> the 10.04 increase is much bigger
[15:19] <ali1234> i'm wondering more why the last row is messed up
[15:19] <hamitron> that too
[15:19] <TheOpenSourcerer> diplo: You missed out quite an important "b" in your 15:09 post! I thought "Nah. They wouldn't possibly call it THAT".
[15:20] <diplo> :D
[15:20] <diplo> Oopos
[15:20] <diplo> on your*
[15:20] <diplo> and I'm sure that's what they called it, maybe im wrong
[15:21] <diplo> :P
[15:21] <hamitron> time for tea and cakes
[15:21] <hamitron> :D
[15:21] <hamitron> brb
[15:21] <popey> diplo: xbmc on both my revos
[15:21] <diplo> yeah what version OS ?
[15:37]  * ali1234 posts charts on omgubuntu and waits for the inevitable flamewar
[15:46] <popey> ali1234: you've seen the bit at the top of http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm
[15:47] <popey> about data loss
[15:47] <ali1234> to mobile sites
[15:47] <ali1234> oh, also 7% loss?
[15:47] <popey> ya
[15:48] <ali1234> that still doesn't account for the 50% drop in hits :)
[15:48] <popey> heh
[15:48] <popey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+source/firefox/8.0+build1-0ubuntu0.11.10.3
[15:48] <popey> * Modify the UA string to add "Ubuntu" to the platform component
[15:49] <ali1234> was that also broken in natty?
[15:49] <ali1234> cos that would explain a lot
[15:50] <popey> i don't know
[15:52] <ali1234> it still doesn't explain the growth in 10.04 though
[15:52] <ali1234> did some government do 1 million installs or something?
[15:55] <popey> ali1234: yeah, it's an interesting question
[15:55] <popey> the popularity of 10.04 doesn't entirely surprise me
[15:56] <popey> will 10.04 be our xp ☺
[15:56] <ali1234> it was an extremely good release
[15:56] <ali1234> heh, yeah
[15:56] <popey> was 11.04 our vista, and 12.04 our 7 ?
[15:56] <ali1234> maybe
[15:56] <ali1234> i think there's still a way to go and a few more u-turns to be made
[15:57] <popey> haha
[15:57] <popey> what kinds of u-turns?
[15:57] <popey> switching to GNU/Hurd
[15:57] <ali1234> nah, just individual design decisions
[15:58]  * popey notes some might take offence at 'u-turn' and might prefer 'design iteration' ;)
[15:58] <ali1234> unity isn't really that bad, just some small parts of it are incredibly annoying. like the way overlay scrollbars are implemented, and the way window switching works
[15:58] <ali1234> i mean a really good design you don;t even notice it
[15:59] <ali1234> that's why people have such a hard time explaining why they don't like unity, and just engage in flamewars instead
[15:59] <ali1234> those people obviously aren't UI designers, so telling them to go away and make their own thing if they don't like it isn't really helpful
[16:00] <ali1234> i actually like the always-hide thing
[16:01] <ali1234> i mean it's hidden 99% of the time anyway
[16:01] <ali1234> i'd like it to be less annoying to reveal it though
[16:01] <AlanBell> that has changed
[16:01] <ali1234> sensitivity on edge push and monitor edge crossing is too low
[16:01] <AlanBell> it is always-show this week
[16:01] <popey> today
[16:01] <ali1234> sometimes it takes be 5 or 6 tries to get from one monitor to the other
[16:02] <popey> yeah, like your mouse going through treacle between screens
[16:02] <ali1234> yeah but you can configure always-hide or always-show
[16:02] <ali1234> dodge was just too buggy
[16:02] <AlanBell> not for long ...
[16:02] <ali1234> well if they remove always hide I AM GOING TO QUIT FOREVER etc
[16:02] <davmor2> ali1234: you can increase the sensitivity and then you don't hit it
[16:02] <popey> #archlinux is →  that way
[16:03] <ali1234> davmor2: how?
[16:03] <AlanBell> I think the monitor divsion treacle things should not be there if I am dragging a window
[16:03] <ali1234> AlanBell: yes absolutely agreed
[16:04] <davmor2> ali1234: it is in system setting Appearance behaviour reveal sensitivity I got mine on high for my laptop due to the track pad and it is fine
[16:04] <ali1234> assasasas
[16:04] <AlanBell> I will try and finish the window quicklists thing this weekend, I think that will help a lot
[16:05] <ali1234> a wild bug appears
[16:05] <ali1234> davmor2: cool. that's new. it affects multimonitor edge resistance too it seems
[16:06] <ali1234> still i'd much rather have the launcher on the left side of the left monitor and the right side of the right monitor
[16:06] <davmor2> ali1234: not so sure about multi-monitor I don't have it setup
[16:07] <ali1234> haha this dialogue is buggy
[16:07] <ali1234> it says displays that "you are not using default settings" message only if you are using default settings
[16:09] <davmor2> ali1234: you might want to keep your eyes open on that one as there might be more features thrown at it maybe,  I only noticed due to OMGubuntu :)
[16:09] <ali1234> yeah lets hope so
[16:22] <Josssse> Hello boys and girls. I'm trying to install ubuntuone. After I apt-get the installer, I run it and when I click on the "I already have an account!" link it does nothing. I see no "connect to ubuntu" window. Any ideas?
[16:22] <popey> uhm
[16:22] <popey> ubuntu one is installed by default on ubuntu
[16:23] <popey> what are you installing it on?
[16:23] <Josssse> I'm in xubuntu.
[16:23] <popey> probably better off asking in #ubuntuone
[16:24] <popey> thats where the developers hang out, and they're a nice bunch
[16:24] <Josssse> The funny thing is that I did it simultanieously on my laptop and it works just fin.
[16:24] <Josssse> Ahhh, thanks popey . Didn't know this channel existed.
[16:58] <s-fox> Goodbye.
[16:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> Amazing conclusions really: http://digital.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/2012/02/10/west-coast/
[17:02] <ali1234> oh jesus, now i'll need a paypal acct to pay my taxes?
[17:02] <ali1234> DO NOT WANT
[17:04] <hamitron> I'm sure they'll take your money off you any way they can
[17:04] <hamitron> just make it harder to get refunds ;)
[18:56] <diplo> evening all
[18:58] <BigRedS> g'morning
[19:07] <MartijnVdS> \o
[19:07]  * MartijnVdS plays with the arduino
[19:11] <cliftonts> hi all
[19:11] <cliftonts> AlanBell: Just thought I'd check if you're stopping by this weekend and if so what day?
[21:07] <mattt> omg it's col
[21:07] <mattt> and i can't get my house to heat up fast enough
[21:07] <mattt> *cold
[21:11] <gordonjcp> METAR EGPF 102050Z 00000KT 6000 -DZ SCT012 BKN016 04/02 Q1032
[21:11] <gordonjcp> :-)
[21:11] <gordonjcp> clouds clearing, 4C
[21:11]  * gordonjcp listens to the cheery WHUMP of some more dead dinosaurs being turned into heat
[21:12] <BigRedS> I like to think there was something other than just gordonjcp involved in that translation
[21:13] <gordonjcp> BigRedS: hm?
[21:13] <BigRedS> from that all caps to "clouds clearing, 4C". I assumed the former inferred the latter in some way
[21:13] <BigRedS> mostly because it began "MET"
[21:14] <gordonjcp> BigRedS: METAR indicates it's a METAR report, EGPF is Glasgow Airport, 102050Z is 10th day of the month, 2050 Zulu time (GMT, near as)
[21:14] <gordonjcp> 00000kt is no wind, 6000 is 6km visibility
[21:15] <gordonjcp> -DZ I don't know offhand, SCT012 scattered clouds at 1200', BKN016 is broken clouds at 1600'
[21:15] <BigRedS> ah, fair enough. I'll let you off
[21:15] <BigRedS> ish
[21:15] <MartijnVdS> ooh mr pilot man  ;)
[21:15] <gordonjcp> 04/02 is 4C with 2C dew point, Q1032 is air pressure at the airfield (for setting altimeters)
[21:16] <BigRedS> wait, the windspeed is padded so as to allow for over 10000 knots?
[21:16] <gordonjcp> sorry, wrong way round
[21:17] <gordonjcp> Q1032 is QNH, or air pressure at mean sea level
[21:17] <gordonjcp> no, it has direction too
[21:17] <BigRedS> ah yeah
[21:17] <BigRedS> that'd be handy, too
[21:17] <BigRedS> clearly they've thought this through :)
[21:18] <gordonjcp> so if it was 27710KT it would be 10 knots at 277 degrees
[21:18] <BigRedS> ah, right
[21:18] <gordonjcp> -DZ is apparently "light drizzle"
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> kelvin? fahrenus? Celsenheit?
[21:18] <BigRedS> I've some perverse desire to go away and learn all this now...
[21:19] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: direction
[21:19] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: ah.. *stupid me* :)
[21:19] <MartijnVdS> "there's a 277°C wind..."
[21:19]  * MartijnVdS runs
[21:20] <BigRedS> haha
[21:41] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: it is a touch colder than 277K right now
[21:42] <diplo> :P
[21:42] <diplo> I can attest to that, bloody cold out there, can't get warm in this house tonight
[21:43] <AlanBell> right, back to dbus and signals and callbacks
[21:43] <czajkowski> AlanBell: add wine will all work then
[21:44] <AlanBell> already had some pink stuff with bubbles in it
[21:52] <DethSone> hey people!
[21:53] <zleap> hi]
[21:53] <DethSone> I have not used IRC in quite a while, how do I go about reg'ing my name on the server again?
[21:53] <zleap> not sure on freenode
[21:54] <DethSone> there's a command, but I forgot it
[21:54] <DethSone> it requires a username, password and e-mail
[21:54] <AlanBell> !register
[21:55] <zleap> ah
[21:55] <zleap> thanks
[21:56] <DethSone> I can not be bothered to go to that link, could you please jus' type an example, but put a space before the example command so it doesn't work?
[21:57] <zleap>    /msg nickserv register password_of_your_choice your@email.address
[21:58] <zleap> then check e-mail
[21:58] <DethSone> THANK YOU!
[21:58] <zleap> np
[21:58] <DethSone> :-)
[21:58] <zleap>    /msg nickserv identify your_nickname your_chosen_password
[21:59] <zleap> then use the above when you next come inor set ur client to do that automatically
[21:59] <AlanBell> yay, callbacks work. QI time.
[21:59] <DethSone> ah, the good ol' days, I remember doing that, like every day man!
[21:59] <zleap> me too
[22:00] <zleap> anyway welcome to irc and #ubuntu-uk
[22:00] <DethSone> I'm only 17yrs old, but it has been about a year since I last used IRC
[22:00] <zleap> cool
[22:00] <zleap> its nice that in this age of text messaging, e-mail etc  irc is still popular
[22:00] <DethSone> IRC is THE BEST form of online communication in my opinion
[22:00] <zleap> yeah
[22:01] <zleap> easier too,
[22:02] <DethSone> so nice and standardized to use, and there are so many clients for it!, even ones for phones!
[22:02] <zleap> DethSone, may also be interested in #ubuntu-youth,  which is kinda quiet but thats due to it needing more people
[22:02] <zleap> yeah
[22:02] <DethSone> you know what, once I reg this new nick, I will check out that chan
[22:02] <zleap> ok
[22:03] <DethSone> haha, the last time I was using IRC was when I was trolin' AnonOps network XD
[22:03] <DethSone> good times
[22:03] <zleap> i used irc back in 1995
[22:03] <zleap> got auto kicked once for using caps by accident
[22:03] <DethSone> haha, 1 yr after I was born!
[22:04] <zleap> back in the early days of linux that too
[22:04] <DethSone> IRC is so flexible, depending on the client of-course
[22:04] <gordonjcp> 1995 wasn't the early days of Linux
[22:04] <zleap> well 1991 was then
[22:05] <zleap> early years then
[22:05] <DethSone> IRC sure has gone a long way from a hacky terminal.
[22:05] <zleap> its sitll useful having a console irc client
[22:05] <zleap> just in case there are issues with the gui
[22:05] <gordonjcp> by 1995 it was mainstream, and I'd moved on to NetBSD
[22:05] <gordonjcp> zleap: I don't see the point in a GUI IRC client
[22:05] <gordonjcp> irssi + screen
[22:05] <zleap> ok
[22:06] <gordonjcp> watch?
[22:06] <gordonjcp> there, now I'm on my android tablet, sitting on my sofa
[22:06] <zleap> i can use irc via ssh
[22:06] <zleap> if i ssh into my other computers
[22:06] <gordonjcp> zleap: yup
[22:06] <DethSone> I dis-agree, I think the command line was really holding IRC back
[22:06] <gordonjcp> I'm ssh'ed into one of my servers, which runs irssi inside screen
[22:07] <gordonjcp> DethSone: really irssi is a GUI app
[22:07] <DethSone> IRC is SOOOOOO much nicer to work with as a GUI
[22:07] <gordonjcp> DethSone: in what way?
[22:08] <DethSone> XChat is my fav IRC client, is also the most dominant, and it's obvious why.
[22:08] <zleap> yeah but if your gui breaks, or in my case the other day didn't load due to ubuntu-desktop being removed, the only option would be to either log in elsewhere or use the console client
[22:08] <gordonjcp> DethSone: it's not obvious to me...
[22:08] <DethSone> consoles break too
[22:08] <Azelphur> ^ wat
[22:08] <Azelphur> I prefer GUI clients, but consoles break?
[22:08] <gordonjcp> DethSone: if I use xchat, how can I switch from one computer to another?
[22:08] <zleap> i was thinking as a back up plan having it installed
[22:09] <Azelphur> gordonjcp: with a BNC, I can use a native client on any platform I like and be connected to IRC
[22:09] <DethSone> log into it on another device?
[22:09] <zleap> it is there if you need it then
[22:09] <gordonjcp> DethSone: right, and that'll have all my scrollback?
[22:09] <Azelphur> DethSone: yep, with a BNC you get scrollback too
[22:09] <gordonjcp> Azelphur: I never really had much success with BNCs
[22:09] <DethSone> I'm sure there is a work-around
[22:09] <gordonjcp> I find GUIs too hard
[22:09] <DethSone> a plugin maybe
[22:09] <Azelphur> *shrug* Been using ZNC for years now, it's awesome
[22:10] <Azelphur> I connect with pidgin/yaaic/xchat/...
[22:10] <gordonjcp> click on whatever weirdass little squiggle the author has decided they want to use for some function, try to guess what it does
[22:10] <zleap> freenode is or was blocked by south west grid for learning,  who provide the network stuff to my local library,
[22:10] <DethSone> XChat = the future of IRC
[22:10] <gordonjcp> toomuch like work
[22:10] <gordonjcp> zleap: bet ssh isn't
[22:10] <gordonjcp> DethSone: what does xchat actually do that's so great?
[22:10] <zleap> gordonjcp, good idea
[22:10] <Azelphur> DethSone: xchat is ancient
[22:11] <DethSone> have you ever used XChat?
[22:11] <Azelphur> Yes.
[22:11] <gordonjcp> a long time ago
[22:11] <gordonjcp> I used it, it sucked
[22:11] <zleap> well i used my local lug server for irc,  that isn't blocked
[22:11] <DethSone> try it today
[22:11] <gordonjcp> why?
[22:11] <zleap> guys i think u need to agree to disagree on stuff
[22:11] <Azelphur> I have tried it today, it's largely not different to how it was a lot of years ago
[22:11] <gordonjcp> what could it possibly do that irssi doesn't, that I actually want?
[22:11] <gordonjcp> the screenshot don't look a whole lot different
[22:11] <DethSone> I'm sure there was a shit load of development for XChat, now is perfect
[22:12] <gordonjcp> DethSone: it's a GUI app, is there a terminal version?
[22:12] <diplo> I use xchat, quite liked irssi but could never get it set up correctly
[22:12] <zleap> a few of my local lug still use stuff like mutt for e-mail, i tried alpine and found it pretty good actually
[22:12] <gordonjcp> diplo: startup channels are a bit of an arse
[22:13] <gordonjcp> I use mutt as a backup
[22:13] <DethSone> at-least XChat is not like Empaphy
[22:13] <DethSone> ugh
[22:13] <diplo> What i hate about xchat is no tiling
[22:13] <gordonjcp> it's awfully handy when I'm ssh'ed into the server anyway
[22:13] <zleap> gordonjcp, yeah, this was my point earlier having console clients installed is handy
[22:14] <zleap> anyway got a lug meet tomorrow
[22:14] <gordonjcp> _2E0BXQ: de MM0YEQ GE OM
[22:14] <zleap> i am sure i had my system set up once so I could ssh in via my netbook and a usb mobile broadband dongle
[22:15] <DethSone> I think I can at-least speak for everyone here when I say, as pretty and user-friendly as Empathy is, it is a fail IRC client.
[22:15] <gordonjcp> zleap: easy enough
[22:15] <zleap> yeah
[22:15] <gordonjcp> DethSone: I never really got my head round either empathy or pidgin as an IRC client
[22:15] <gordonjcp> the whole model is wrong
[22:15] <zleap> DethSone, never used it, i just like using xchat
[22:15] <DethSone> I mean, XChat has gotta be better than Empathy right?
[22:15] <gordonjcp> I *am* interested in writing an Empathy plugin for AX.25 though
[22:15] <Azelphur> DethSone: XChat hasn't seen much active development in a very long time
[22:15] <Azelphur> DethSone: it's very much the same now as it was 10 years ago
[22:16] <zleap> we don't want develiopment and added bloat
[22:16] <DethSone> Azelphur, it hasn't needed any.
[22:16] <Azelphur> DethSone: indeed
[22:16] <zleap> if it ain't broke don't fix it
[22:16] <Azelphur> ^ :P
[22:17] <zleap> i need to set that ssh thing up again, and show some of the kids at the rugby club why Ubuntu is good
[22:17] <zleap> i also need to figure out what is missing and stopping the game pad working properly on open arena
[22:17] <DethSone> well, I'm sure you all here have valid points about your choice of IRC clients, if you like them, good for you, but I think my heart is set on XChat.
[22:18] <zleap> yeah,
[22:18] <Azelphur> hehe, it's a good client, I got nothing against it :)
[22:18] <gordonjcp> yeah
[22:18] <gordonjcp> I just prefer being able to hop on quickly and check IRC when I'm out and about
[22:18] <DethSone> gordonjcp: what client you use, I might try it
[22:18] <gordonjcp> DethSone: irssi, which I run inside screen on one of my servers
[22:19] <gordonjcp> DethSone: just sits there in the background, until I connect
[22:19] <DethSone> that's a CLI based client righ'?
[22:19] <zleap> yeah
[22:20] <gordonjcp> it's worth pointing out that at any given moment I have ssh connections from about three or four "user" machines (laptops, desktops, PC in the van) to three or four servers ;-)
[22:20] <DethSone> meh, I could live with that, but I wouldn't like it much.
[22:20] <gordonjcp> I seriously don't get what xchat offers
[22:20] <gordonjcp> I'm looking at a screenshot
[22:20] <gordonjcp> it looks much like the terminal window I have open, with an IRC channel scrolling up it
[22:20] <gordonjcp> except it's got a list of channels at one side and a list of usernames at the other
[22:20] <zleap> DethSone, useful to have when you can ssh in and use it
[22:21] <DethSone> gordonjcp: easy menu selections and easy to navigate list of channels, + a shit load of other useful features, and a layout to die for.
[22:21] <gordonjcp> menu selections of what?
[22:22] <gordonjcp> and, what could be easier than pressing a key on the keyboard to select which channel you want?
[22:22] <zleap> most of the menus u can access via commands anyway
[22:22] <DethSone> gordonjcp: you'd have-to use it
[22:22] <gordonjcp> DethSone: I don't think I'd like it, tbh
[22:22] <gordonjcp> DethSone: I just don't find GUI apps easy to use
[22:22] <DethSone> I've seen screenshots, they don't make it look good.
[22:23] <DethSone> gordonjcp: okay ol' timer XD
[22:23] <zleap> i guess its like comaring word with emacs
[22:23] <gordonjcp> so, to change channels, I'd have to take my hand off the keyboard, find the mouse, wibble it about until I find the mouse pointer, mouse over to the channel list, click it, and switch back to the keyboard
[22:23] <gordonjcp> *or*
[22:23] <DethSone> ay ef kay
[22:23] <gordonjcp> I could press <ESCAPE> <0>
[22:23] <gordonjcp> there are very few GUI apps that don't flat out suck
[22:24] <gordonjcp> mostly because the people who write GUI apps are focused on the shiny
[22:24] <gordonjcp> and not the actual workflow
[22:24] <gordonjcp> fuck the shiny
[22:24] <zleap> LaTeX ftw
[22:24] <gordonjcp> get the workflow right and the shiny will become obvious
[22:24]  * mgdm looks for te Show Desktop button in Unity
[22:24] <zleap> alt-tab
[22:24] <gordonjcp> mgdm: that's on a key I don't even have
[22:25] <zleap> well it is in 11.10 anyway
[22:25] <gordonjcp> it's mapped to a button that wasn't invented when my IBM Model M was built
[22:25] <mgdm> zleap: not in unity 2d, at least
[22:25] <zleap> hmm
[22:25] <zleap> dunno then
[22:25] <zleap> can you add it
[22:26] <zleap> hi
[22:26] <zleap> well i will try and promote irc where i can
[22:26] <zleap> i need to also promote ubuntu
[22:26] <zleap> :)
[22:27] <popey> zleap: meet issyl0
[22:27] <zleap> yeah
[22:27] <popey> you mailed the list about http://codingforkids.org/wiki/Contacts_page
[22:27] <issyl0> Huh?
[22:27] <popey> issyl0: is on that page
[22:27] <zleap> oh
[22:28] <zleap> sorry missed that
[22:28] <issyl0> Hahah.
[22:28] <issyl0> Wow.
[22:28] <popey> ☺
[22:28] <zleap> hi issyl0
[22:28] <issyl0> I didn't actually realise that.
[22:28] <issyl0> :D
[22:28] <issyl0> Hello.
[22:28] <popey> yeah, bet you dont ever get any contact via that page do you issyl0 ?
[22:28] <issyl0> Nope.
[22:28] <popey> thought not
[22:28] <zleap> i have posted to the list,
[22:28] <issyl0> zleap: Which list?
[22:28] <zleap> coding 4 kids
[22:29] <issyl0> Ah.
[22:29] <zleap> Asked about YRS posters
[22:29] <issyl0> Ah, yeah.
[22:29] <issyl0> There were some for last year - they'll probably make some for this year too.
[22:29] <issyl0> They'd be silly not to.
[22:29] <zleap> josh pickett is doing some now, will be ready for the 12th
[22:30] <issyl0> Yeah, cool.
[22:30] <zleap> I can give em out at park field and this computing group,  hopefully
[22:30] <issyl0> Josh is brilliant.
[22:31] <zleap> well contacting schools etc is a waste of time,  they are clueless or e-mail goes to the clueless which means info does not get to the people its aimed at
[22:31] <zleap> setting up computer programming group,  so can promote directly
[22:31] <issyl0> Heh, cool.  :-)
[22:31] <zleap> :)
[22:32] <zleap> not sure if it should be a coding group or hacking (as in programmer sense) group,  as latter would also cover hard ware hacking
[22:32] <issyl0> zleap: Start small, work up.
[22:32] <zleap> yeah
[22:32] <zleap> well once a crb is done,  then the local youth centre are going to promote it
[22:33] <issyl0> Heh, CRB checks.
[22:33] <issyl0> Bleh.
[22:33] <zleap> yeah
[22:34] <zleap> i want to encourage peer supported development as in help each other etc
[22:34] <zleap> but also hopefully get people in to OSS projects as that is real world development
[22:35] <issyl0> 4
[22:35] <issyl0> Gah.
[22:35] <zleap> ?
[22:36] <zleap> will see what happens anyway
[22:36] <zleap> so which sounds better coding group or hacking group ?
[22:37] <zleap> wb imexil
[22:37] <zleap> wb imperial
[22:37] <zleap> grrrr
[22:38] <zleap> wb imperial
[22:41] <zleap> hello Pernig
[22:42] <Pernig> evning
[22:42] <zleap> how are u
[22:43] <zleap> ok what do i need for tomorrows lug meet
[22:44] <zleap> netbook, ubuntu cd's  poster for next months meet, :D,  11.10 poster
[22:47] <Pernig> good thanks
[22:47] <Pernig> you?
[22:47] <zleap> i am good
[22:48] <Pernig> SD cards?
[22:48] <zleap> heading to bed early got lug meet tomorrow
[22:48] <zleap> i have usb flash disks
[22:49] <popey> gord: x220 claims it can get another 5 hours out of this 9 cell with the brightness on minimum and the kb light on
[22:51] <mgdm> nice
[22:51]  * mgdm wants one of those
[22:52] <zleap> lol pc world site FAIL
[22:52] <zleap> sort by prce low to high,  lists with the most expensive first
[22:52] <zleap> sort by high to lowl  lists cheapest first
[22:54] <ali1234> ooo libc update
[22:58] <zleap> chat later
[22:58] <DethSone> I tried reging, but no conf mail, what I do?
[22:59] <AlanBell> ask in #freenode
[23:17] <ali1234> my apt has exploded again
[23:18] <ali1234> and i now have 6 apport bugs trying to submit at the same time
[23:18] <ali1234> and, oh look, the bug where it doesn't submit properly still isn't fixed
[23:20] <ali1234> what's the command to manually redo apport bugreport when you only have a crashdump and it crashed the first time around?
[23:20] <gordonjcp> apportpocalyse now
[23:22] <ali1234> oh yes, apport-cli
[23:54] <ali1234> i'm getting the "ubuntu-desktop is marked for removal but is in the removal blacklist" thing again :(