AlanBellthis looks interesting http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/wacblog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?List=be9c76d3-7ad0-4e03-a1a0-e6f6953b8178&ID=5100:14
ali1234bit late for me to show up for that00:16
AlanBellyeah, I only just found out about it, I won't be able to make it00:17
ali1234i still want to do that minicom hack00:17
AlanBellit is a bit androidish anyway00:17
ali1234software minicom on android would be perfect :)00:18
ali1234either that or a gateway service you can run at home00:18
ali1234but minicom isn't compatible with standard modems unfortunately00:19
AlanBella friend of mine had a machine, don't think they use it any more00:19
ali1234it's only 300bps or something though, so it should be trivial to handle in software with a softmodem etc00:19
ali1234surprised nobody has done it00:19
ali1234well, they have, but i'm surprised nobody made an open source one00:20
AlanBellyeah, it is a good protocol for text chatting00:20
AlanBellsends every keystroke rather than every line00:20
ali1234well, all modems do that00:21
AlanBellsure, I meant the UI00:21
ali1234minicom is pretty horrible really, suffers from duplex issues and no upper/lower case00:21
ali1234so i'd like to either make a jabber to minicom gateway or an android app that lets you dial up a minicom from your phone and talks baudot through software00:22
ali1234either way the only missing piece is the signal processing00:22
ali1234and i need a real minicom for that so i can develop it00:23
ali1234but they are like £9900:23
ali1234(on ebay)00:23
AlanBellali1234: I will ask my friend if it is still lurking in a cupboard somewhere00:29
ali1234apparently android doesn't let you touch the call audio so that's out00:43
ali1234but our old friend fabrice bellard has made this: http://bellard.org/linmodem.html00:44
popeyheheh, our old friend00:44
ali1234ive lost count of the cool projects with his name on00:45
ali1234no gnuradio packages in ubuntu?00:52
ubuntuuk-planet[Chris Oattes] Ambilight Clone - http://www.cjo20.net/blog/?p=4202:05
MartijnVdSali1234: That guy wrote some scary things05:52
MartijnVdSali1234: ffmpeg, qemu, qemu-in-js06:21
ali1234i demodulated FM with gnuradio :)06:31
MartijnVdSali1234: next up: DAB06:44
ali1234one of the linuxtv developers has a dvb-t stick with FM and DAB06:45
ali1234but it uses a softradio to decode it06:45
ali1234so, he posted some dumps06:45
MartijnVdSApparently there are DAB transmissions in .nl, but about 3 receivers total06:45
ali1234and i just worked out how to listen to it in gnuradio :)06:45
ali1234of course it will suck if you need gnuradio to listen to FM06:46
ali1234it's not even packaged for ubuntu06:46
MartijnVdSali1234: It's always useful to be able to though, in case the robots take over06:47
ali1234just goes to show the damage you can do with wikipedia, open source code, and a bit of determination07:02
=== MartijnV1S is now known as MartijnVdS
brobostigongood morning everyone.10:30
cliftontsmorning guys10:32
brobostigonmorning cliftonts10:32
cliftontshow's it going?10:32
brobostigoncliftonts: alittle tired. and you?10:34
cliftontswell, I had to be up for work at 5:30 so pretty much the same10:34
AlanBellhi cliftonts10:58
AlanBellshould be up your way tomorrow10:58
cliftontsAlanBell: Morning, thanks I'm down to my last disc today!10:58
AlanBellno snow is forecast so should be OK :)10:58
cliftontsI'm bored with the snow now anyway10:59
gordonjcpno snow here, wish we had some11:04
cliftontswell you can have mine! lol11:05
=== james is now known as Guest11132
gordonjcpIs is possible to install Ubuntu on a machine without setting up an initial user, and then have it prompt to set up a user on the second boot?11:29
gordonjcpor, first boot after installation11:29
AlanBellgordonjcp: yes11:29
cliftontsyes gordonjcp11:29
gordonjcpwhich suggests exactly the use-case I was looking for11:30
zleaphi, if I want to set up my router to allow ssh to my maincomputer do I set up ssh service as inbound,,11:30
cliftontsboot the live cd, press some keys when the cryptic keyboard = man logo comes up11:30
cliftontsthen push F4 and select OEM install11:30
gordonjcpis that in 10.04?11:30
AlanBellyou boot up in OEM mode, as an OEM user, tinker with stuff, add/remove packages whatever, then when you are done, oem-config-prepare and it sets it up for the first real user11:30
AlanBellgordonjcp: has been there since at least 8.0411:30
gordonjcpright, I'll play with that later11:30
AlanBellcliftonts: that cryptic symbol represents accessibility11:31
cliftontsit may do but keyboard = man in a bubble doesn't seem very intuitive11:31
AlanBelland was the most outrageously thoughtless thing ever done11:31
AlanBellcliftonts: rather accademic anyhow, when it is aimed at blind users11:32
gordonjcpAlanBell: is that what it is?11:32
AlanBellhay blind person, when you see this symbol on screen with no audio cue, press the keyboard /o\11:32
gordonjcpI have trouble distinguishing symbols at the best of times11:32
AlanBellthose are the only two places I am aware of that you might see that symbol and be expected to know it means accessibility11:34
gordonjcpI didn't think it meant accessibility tbh11:34
gordonjcpI thought it looked like the guy off the cover of the Frankie Goes To Hollywood - "Two Tribes" 12-inch single, eating a waffle11:35
AlanBellneither did I, so I drew this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/HeaderMain?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=accessibilityteam.png11:35
gordonjcpnow it's explained to me I can see it looks like a guy in a circle standing beside a giant keyboard11:35
AlanBellanyhow, now to get the audio installer you wait for the drums at the start of ubiquity and hit ctrl+s11:36
gordonjcpit's a man in a wheeled coffee cup doing a stoppie11:36
AlanBellhmm, there was that call for a new sound theme11:36
AlanBellbest check they still have sounds in the important places11:36
cliftontswell, nothing's ever perfect. Right?11:40
AlanBellcliftonts: yeah, just annoying when things go backward11:42
AlanBelljust left a comment on the design team blog about the sounds that must not be lost11:42
AlanBellthe design team have a habbit of changing things that were always done a particular way for a *reason*. Change is good, but you have to understand what you are breaking.11:44
cliftontswell, I have faith it'll all work out anyway.11:44
jacobw(in before noon)11:58
AlanBellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/837679/ not many bugs left12:00
AlanBellif you have unity you could put that in something like quicklists.py and run it with python12:01
AlanBellthen right click launcher items to see and navigate to windows12:01
AlanBellbit broken with gimp, but generally works12:01
AlanBellbit broken if you close an application altogether and restart it in fact12:03
gordhrm, you would of thought that balancing a router on a radiator would cause it to overheat, but apparently not. woo12:36
gordAlanBell, it wants a timestamp because X uses timestamps to decide which action to take in case of conflicts (two things tell it to do two different things, newest timestamp wins)12:40
AlanBellah, ok12:52
popeyMorning all from Surrey LUG13:33
hamitronwhy just people from there? ;)13:34
christelmorning popey13:34
AlanBello/ popey and the luggers13:35
gordonjcppopey: morning13:35
Seeker`hey hey13:36
directhexpopey, surrey is in a different time zone, at least 2 hours before GMT?13:38
AlanBellall time is relative, lunchtime doubly so13:39
AlanBelltime is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so, to quote more accurately13:40
brobostigonhhgttg. :)13:41
brobostigonford prefect.13:41
popeymost people have gone to the pub13:41
popeyi have no salted peanuts13:41
* Seeker` salts popeys nuts?13:42
penguin42AlanBell: So I guess your chickens are out of luck for future releases of Kubuntu then13:55
penguin42AlanBell: Canonical dropped funding for Kubuntu13:56
AlanBelloh, interesting, I guess no pressed kubuntu CDs after 12.0413:56
AlanBellwas that bit actually announced?13:57
penguin42I haven't actually seen an announcment13:57
BigRedSI guessed it'd be announced after 12.04 is released13:58
* AlanBell asks in #kubuntu13:58
hamitroneverything I move to try seems to die or break.... testing KDE atm ;)14:00
* penguin42 isn't actually too bothered about the distro so much as the packages; if the KDE packages are OK I'm happy14:00
hamitronmaybe I should try my "luck" on MS or Apple14:00
BigRedSpenguin42: I can't see it getting any worse than xfce or lxde14:01
BigRedS(though I don't know what state theyr'e in compared to KDE)14:01
hamitronwhat is performance of Kubuntu like?14:02
penguin42hamitron: Fine here on an AMD hd4350 (open drivers) on an i714:04
penguin42BigRedS: To some degree that's my worry14:05
hamitronI think my main wory is memory14:05
AlanBellhow much do you have?14:05
penguin42hamitron: I think there is a low resource setup - not tried it14:05
hamitronand the "feel"14:05
AlanBellmemory is cheap14:05
hamitronmobo only accepts 2GB14:05
AlanBellthat is OK for general use14:06
hamitronbut I just find *buntu sluggish sometimes14:06
hamitronstarts up loads faster than a lot of stuff, but then never feels snappy14:06
AlanBellthe chickens may have to switch to Ubuntu server in the 12.10 cycle14:08
hamitronI will ofc try unity before deciding to move from the default supported UI14:08
hamitronchickens? :|14:09
hamitronI better get stuff sorted before the match starts14:12
hamitronbbl o/14:12
ali1234regarding the man = keyboard, i always though it meant "hey you, press a key"14:15
popeyali1234: are you sat next to me?14:18
popeybloke next to me just asked what person = keyboard means14:19
ali1234and i was reading about baader-meinhof phenomenon last night. true story14:20
* penguin42 wonders if the gov just use e-petitions as a way of finding evil nasty opinionated people to keep an eye on14:20
AlanBellit is cryptic to those in the know14:20
ali1234but no, i was just reading the scroll back from this morning14:20
popeyubuntu 12.04 only installs if the host supports pae?14:22
popeythis seems somewhat um.. odd14:22
AlanBellthat will be the 32 bit CD14:22
popeygot a chap here with an old but usable thinkpad which doesn't have / support pae14:22
popeyshould I use the 64-bit cd? (no idea if the cpu supports 64-bit)14:22
AlanBellno pae and no 64 bit14:22
popeysorry i cant parse that14:22
MartijnVdSHow much RAM does he have?14:23
popeyMartijnVdS: does it matter?14:23
MartijnVdSpopey: PAE is only used for addressing >4GB of RAM14:23
popeybut i cant even boot the install cd14:23
AlanBellI would try 64bit if it will do that14:23
popeyits a pentium M class cpu, thinkpad x4014:24
penguin42MartijnVdS: I think there have been efforts to standardise on using the PAE kernel even for smaller machines just to avoid having to test two kernel sets14:24
MartijnVdSpenguin42: ah, sure. But then the kernel should degrade gracefully14:24
MartijnVdSthere's nothing in the Technical Overview (release notes)14:25
penguin42fun: http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsw.php - near to the edges of margin on the UK electricity grid for this evening - fortunately these type of warnings are rare14:25
MartijnVdSpenguin42: empty page with to "Loading, please wait" ?14:26
penguin42MartijnVdS: On Chrome? It doesn't like chrome14:26
MartijnVdSchrome, yes14:27
MartijnVdSwhat am I looking at?14:27
MartijnVdSA prediction that not enough power will be available?14:28
penguin42MartijnVdS: The top one (most recent) is that there is enough but it's too close to the edge for what they like14:29
MartijnVdSNext is tea/kettle rationing? ;)14:30
penguin42MartijnVdS: The one issued earlier at 10:24 was heavier saying that 'Demand control imminent' which I think is when they say to large industrial consumers to turn off14:30
MartijnVdSI love how it's that public14:30
MartijnVdSYou won't see that in .nl14:30
penguin42MartijnVdS: Although that's the kind of large industrial users who strike a bargain price on the basis they might get told that14:30
popeythe discussion about non-pae14:31
ali1234so what CPU is it that is not working?14:31
penguin42MartijnVdS: http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm  has a lot more stats - if you look there is a graph of our flow to/from you on our interconnect and there is also wind production predictions14:31
ali1234oh, nvm, pentium M14:31
ali1234yeah, that's... old14:32
penguin42an M isn't *that* old - and there is quite a range of M's14:32
penguin42popey: What speed M is it you have?14:33
popeyit's a perfectly acceptable laptop by the look of it14:34
popeynot some manky old crap14:34
penguin42MartijnVdS: I think the combination here is that the prediction is we'll have low wind this evening, and we're mostly warning on coal today (reserving gas because of the shortages at the moment?) and if we're low on wind it's likely that .nl may be as well so we won't be able to get from you this evening14:34
penguin42popey: So that thing you linked to said ~400MHz Pentium M didn't have PAE - but a 1.6GHz is *much* newer14:34
MartijnVdSpenguin42: Time to fire up the ol' nukes! ;)14:35
penguin42MartijnVdS: Well those graphs show we do have the nukes on full14:36
gordonjcpclearly we need more nuclear plants with modern designs14:36
penguin42gordonjcp: Although I don't like nukes, I do agree they're the only current solution14:37
gordonjcpwhat's not to like?14:37
gordonjcpthey're compact, clean and efficient14:37
penguin42gordonjcp: Very very occasionally they go very wrong14:37
gordonjcpokay, they're expensive to build but they have a long service life14:37
MartijnVdSgordonjcp: Or efficient links to France, they have lots of nukes :)14:37
gordonjcppenguin42: that's not a big deal14:38
penguin42MartijnVdS: Well yes we have a 2GW link to France, and you can see some of the time today we were selling them power14:38
penguin42gordonjcp: No? I'd say that at the moment I'd agree I'd prefer the risk to the lights going out14:38
penguin42gordonjcp: But the guys in Japan might disagree at the moment14:38
popeybug 93044714:39
lubotu3Launchpad bug 930447 in linux (Ubuntu) "Unable to Install Ubuntu 12.04 on Pentium M x86 Laptop due to PAE kernel" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/93044714:39
gordonjcppenguin42: the real problem is that the vast majority of nuclear reactors in the world date from the same era as split-windscreen Morris Minors14:39
=== zleap is now known as zleap-lugmeet
penguin42gordonjcp: True, but you're always going to find things that you could have done better in a design compared to 30 years ago, so whatever we build now is going to look crazy in 30 years time14:40
gordonjcppenguin42: right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't scrap the existing reactors and build new ones14:41
penguin42gordonjcp: Agreed, and we really need to start doing that _now_ (actually years ago)14:41
AlanBellpopey: so we have http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/linux-image-3.2.0-15-generic but it is impossible to get to it right?14:49
AlanBellpopey: maybe put the hdd in a more modern CPU computer, install it and then install linux-image-generic, then put it back in the old one14:50
popeythe hdd is an ide ssd14:50
popeyso yeah, thats possible14:50
head_victimApparently the mini iso still works to install from I'm told.14:50
AlanBellusb HDD cradle?14:50
penguin42popey: So it looks like the age of the PentiumM's affected was just wrong in the original thread14:51
* popey will fiddle, thanks for the suggestions14:51
* danfish is thinking of getting an amd fusion laptop14:59
danfishanyone here running ubuntu on one and if so all good?15:00
MartijnVdSpenguin42: Found the Dutch electicity net news feed :) http://www.tennet.org/bedrijfsvoering/OperationeleBerichtgeving.aspx15:03
MartijnVdSpenguin42: but it's more "market" news15:04
penguin42MartijnVdS: Ah it does have some of the data; http://www.tennet.org/english/bsmailfax/20120211_084905_Extra_biedingen_en_mogelijke_inzet_noodvermogen.html    seems to be the equivalent warning15:06
MartijnVdSpenguin42: Yes15:07
AlanBellreally not impressed by the Unity API documentation15:28
SuperEngineerI recommend a listen to first few seconds of lastest Linux Outlaws  podcast  - a good reminder to us all courtesy of Jean Luke Pichard http://feeds.feedburner.com/linuxoutlaws-ogg15:30
SuperEngineer[could actually be a Ubuntu moto?15:31
* SuperEngineer avoids temptation to add political comment to end of that one ;)15:51
* BigRedS imagines Shuttleworth on a purple MX bike15:52
OmNomDePlumeI'm watching the Everton - Chelsea game16:08
OmNomDePlumeIs David Luiz playing as a centre-back or an attacking midfielder?!16:08
danfishOmNomDePlume: I think he's wicket keeper :P16:09
OmNomDePlumeHad no idea Brazil had a cricket team.16:10
MartijnVdSneither did they17:08
danfishdutchland has a cricket team17:11
BigRedSyeah, the land of the dutch17:11
danfishtalking of dutch, haven't heard from dutchie here for a while17:12
jacobwthis is curious17:12
danfishmust be enjoying the student life too much17:12
jacobwthese students :p17:12
danfishjacobw: the internets didn't exist when I was a studcent :(17:17
danfishI'm not sure we had ecletricity17:18
AlanBellif you run this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/sanity.py in python you should get reasonably functional window quicklists17:27
AlanBellso right click on running things in the unity launcher bar and you see all the relevant window titles, click to focus on them17:28
dutchiei'm still here!17:39
dutchiestudent life is busy17:39
AlanBellI am just opening up lots of windows and then going to *the one I want to*, it is great17:55
danfishdutchie: hope you are having fun at oxford poly ;)17:58
* danfish is upgrading to 12.04 and will check out AlanBell's script later18:01
popeyooooh AlanBell18:02
popeythats really good18:02
dutchiedanfish: oi18:03
AlanBellpopey: it deals with adding and removing and renaming windows, and applications closing and re-opening, I can't make it go wrong now18:04
dutchiedbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.UnknownMethod: Method "RunningApplicationsDesktopFiles" with signature "" on interface "org.ayatana.bamf.matcher" doesn't exist18:04
AlanBellI dunno if there is a design team edict that window quicklists are verboten18:04
popeyAlanBell: can you make it do tabs ?18:04
dutchieAlanBell: are you on precise?18:04
AlanBelldutchie: yes, but it should work on older unity I expect18:05
AlanBellpopey: not with the bamf api, that just sees windows. It renames based on what tab you are in mostly18:05
dutchieapparently not18:05
AlanBelldutchie: ok :(18:06
dutchieAlanBell: see exception above18:06
dutchieis there anything i might need to install?18:06
* danfish got dutchie's error on another 12.10 laptop18:06
AlanBellah, must be a new method18:06
oimon1guys, how can i disable the functionality in unity where the buttons get put on the panel when maximised? i've disabled global menu, but my buttons are on the right, so hidden buttons on the left is not working for me18:07
AlanBellthere might be a python dependency of some kind18:07
danfishczajkowski: looking forwrards to the rubgy?18:09
dutchie18:08:29 < danfish> s/12.10/11.1018:09
dutchiehttps://code.launchpad.net/~mhr3/bamf/non-chatty-signals/+merge/88462 < looks like that introduced it18:09
czajkowskidanfish: always18:09
dutchieand was approved ~3 weeks ago18:10
dutchieso precise only18:10
danfishah, will wait until upgrade finished18:10
danfishczajkowski: will probably the deciding game of the tournament18:11
czajkowskidanfish: annoying match at 8pm18:12
czajkowskidanfish: how are england v italy doing ?18:13
danfishczajkowski: englandwon by 4pts....just18:15
oimon1so, anyone know how to disable the "maximus" functionality in unity?:(18:16
danfishoimon1: not sure butdoes ccsm have the option?18:17
diploevening all18:18
oimon1danfish: can't see anything, there might be a hidden gconftool function18:18
oimon1keep looking at ways that i can make unity usable for me, but right now it doesn't rally look like unity at all, so i might as well use xfce or something (although i like and use desktop zoom in compiz a lot)18:20
* danfish is using xfce on my lappie at the mo as it's a rubbish lap18:21
popeypip pip18:54
czajkowskidanfish: wow that was close18:59
ubuntuuk-planet[Tony] A man, a cupcake, a photobooth - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/02/11/a-man-a-cupcake-a-photobooth/19:05
czajkowskianyone else using the ambiance theme?19:11
zleapczajkowski, think so19:22
zleapi find the theme seems to change at random for no aparant reason19:22
czajkowskitheme hasn't changed19:23
czajkowskijust trying to see things using the theme has become difficult19:23
zleapit seems fine here19:25
zleaphmm, checking this out got distracted by the removeable media settings,  it does not seem to list usb flash drives19:27
czajkowskiclickong on more networks pops out a small window which wont show up on screen capure but can barely be seen http://twitpic.com/8ikzgu/full19:27
czajkowskireading pdfs changing the size on menu is to dark to read19:27
zleapwhat am i looking for there,  the console window looks clear as does the menu19:28
czajkowskithe drop down menu for wifi networks19:29
zleapwired networks are not available then19:30
czajkowskiI click on more networks19:30
czajkowskiand a small box pops out but I cant see whats i it19:31
zleapah,  i am on wired so can't check that out here19:31
zleapdo you get the same issue in 12.04 b2 ?>19:32
zleapso is this dodge window thing refering to the side bar hiding,  its changing to always visible or something19:33
AlanBellyes, and yes19:34
czajkowskiAlanBell: evenimn19:34
zleapthat may be handy as i keep getting the side bar pop up when i try and close apps19:34
AlanBellczajkowski: next time I am in London I will see what the more networks thing does czajkowski19:34
zleapi assume then when apps go full screen,  they will stop at the side bar,19:34
AlanBellzleap: they do19:35
zleapthats better too19:35
AlanBelland there is a launcher on every monitor now19:35
AlanBelldunno where gord is putting his hud19:35
zleapso will we still have menus19:36
popeyczajkowski: i get that more networks issue19:36
AlanBellI guess it pops out of the launcher on the monitor containing the focussed application19:36
ali1234for now19:36
zleapso what happens if people can't type very well but can use a mouse19:36
ali1234what happens if we are using a program that uses meta and alt?19:36
AlanBellthere will be menus19:36
zleapso menus are not going fully19:37
zleapsome articles / comments seem to imply that19:37
AlanBellali1234: if you want to to alt+prtscr you are out of luck because gord grabbed your alt key19:37
AlanBellzleap: yeah, they are wrong19:37
czajkowskipopey: oh good not just me :)19:37
ali1234AlanBell: yeah. normally i would just remap it to meta but unity steals that too19:37
zleapgreat, cos alt-printscreen is for sysrq kernel hacking stuff,   which is handy19:38
ali1234over-design again19:38
AlanBellyeah, I stop unity stealing super because I use super+mousewheel for enhanced zoom19:38
ali1234popey: someone isn't a unity fan?19:38
AlanBelland I turn off the shortcut overlay too19:38
AlanBellpopey: I think you need to plug that in19:39
zleapoh on mini features like this on network connection information,  can we have a way to save that info to a file19:39
zleapis shortcut overlay 12.04 only ?19:40
AlanBellalt-printscreen is for screenshot of the current window19:40
ali1234it's the old story: application designers assume you will only use their application and no others, so they design it to use as much resources/conflicting keyboard shortcuts/etc as possible. and it might work well if they are right and you never use anything else19:40
zleapprint screen is a pain i keep accidentally hitting it19:40
popeyAlanBell: it just died when i was getting the power lead ☺19:41
ali1234doesn't really make much sense when the application in question is specifically supposed to be used to manage other applications19:41
AlanBellali1234: http://trendsupdates.com/openoffice-mouse-a-computer-mouse-with-18-buttons-and-a-joystick/19:41
AlanBellthat is the alternative to key binding clashes19:42
popeyrebooted and that issue has gone away19:42
ali1234the alternative to key binding clashes is for window managers not to use key bindings19:42
ali1234instead, they should just use mouse input19:42
zleapali1234, or use the command line19:44
AlanBelleverything should be keyboard navigable, and should be accessible to orca19:44
zleaplike emacs etc19:44
AlanBellhowever some of the unity keybinding choices are a bit suspect19:44
ali1234any time i have to look away from the screen and at the keyboard it slows me down19:44
ali1234it is much more efficient to launch programs with the mouse rather than look down at the keyboard to press meta-1 to open a nautilus or whatever19:45
zleapthe speccy hasd several commands on each key, with several key bindings to call up different basic commands19:45
ali1234if you think using the keyboard for this is faster you must have extremely poor mouse skills19:45
AlanBellno, I don't19:45
ali1234lots of people do though19:45
AlanBellI think it should be *possible* to do everything from the keyboard19:45
ali1234i agree19:45
ali1234it should not be the recommended and prefered way to do it  though19:46
zleapall alt-s is quicker when saving19:46
popeyctrl+s surely19:46
ali1234every person who likes unity, every single one, will talk about how its so great to reveal the launcher with meta or switch to an application with meta-1,2,319:46
zleapwhat is meta ?19:47
ali1234you mean ctrl-o enter19:47
AlanBellzleap: super19:47
ali1234no wait, you mean ctrl-x ctrl-s19:47
BigRedSI love how hard everyone tries to not call it the windows key :)19:47
ali1234no wait, you mean esc:w19:47
popeyyou mean alt, save, enter19:47
ali1234popey: that won't work in *any* of the programs i have just mentions, but thanks for playing19:48
AlanBellalt, "sav" enter19:48
ali1234hud works with terminal programs?19:48
popeyoh i see19:48
ali1234nano, emacs, vi?19:48
ali1234yeah, that's what i thought19:48
AlanBellif you do alt *save* enter it will probably just change the font size19:48
popeyreal people use terminals huh?19:48
BigRedSwait, you want mouse commands to work in vi?19:48
MartijnVdSpopey: are you saying people who use terminals aren't real?19:49
zleapthey work in mc i think19:49
AlanBellMartijnVdS: sounds about right to me19:49
MartijnVdSI'm not imaginary!19:49
AlanBellno, just virtual19:49
ali1234BigRedS: no, the point i am trying to make is that the keyboard is not always the best way, particularly for the inexperienced user19:50
AlanBellanyhow, switching windows is done by right clicking the icon in the launcher and selecting the window title from the quicklist, all mousy goodness19:50
BigRedSali1234: Ah. I'm not one of those people who thinks everything need be good for the inexperienced user, and I also dislike having to find my mouse :)19:51
ali1234BigRedS: i dislike having to find the keeeeeeyboard. who is to say which of us is "right?"19:51
BigRedSali1234: neither19:51
BigRedSI think both should be accomodated for19:51
ali1234mouse users absolutely are not being accomodated for with unity19:52
BigRedSnor are keyboard users19:52
ali1234the only thing we hear is "but the keyboard is so much better"19:52
zleapso will the unity menu config uration tool be added to the settings / control panel app so its easy to find19:52
BigRedSI'm sure we talked about this the other day :)19:52
AlanBellBigRedS: that reminds me, I was going to do a little tweak to the "show mouse" plugin19:53
ali1234unity has a lot more going to it for keyboard users, like hud, shortcuts for everything, programs are launched by typing the name19:55
BigRedSthe *wrong* program is launched by typing the name19:55
ali1234if the computer has no keyboard finding programs will take ages19:55
AlanBellali1234: I did try to fix that, might try again19:58
AlanBellBigRedS: yeah, unity caters well for bad typists19:58
BigRedSyeah, i suppose it's just that the keyboard only ways seem to be a lot longer and involve more keypresses than they should19:58
penguin42not sure20:03
ali1234i think i said this before but unity should come with one of those cardboard cut out keyboard overlays like you used to get with flight sim games20:04
penguin42ali1234: If you just hold menu down it pops one up20:04
ali1234that's not helpful20:04
ali1234i need to look at the keyboard20:04
ali1234i can't see that when i'm looking at the keyboard20:04
AlanBellit is *bad*20:04
czajkowskiDJones: indeed! what did they expect from a 8pm kick off20:04
AlanBellit isn't keyboard focussable so you can't read it with orca at all20:04
AlanBellit is completely broken by design20:04
ali1234i look at that screen and think "oh, that's nice" and then continue doing everything the slow way with the mouse20:05
jacobwbroken or defectve? :p20:06
ali1234i actually learned a lot about unity by doing the checkbox test20:06
jacobwusing the mouse is always slow20:07
ali1234especially the alt-tab and friends stuff20:07
jacobwvimperator ftw20:07
ali1234using the mouse is only slow when software is badly designed20:07
ali1234when i'm using the mouse i don't get interrupted by having to focus on the keyboard instead of the monitor20:08
ali1234that interrupts my train of thought20:08
jacobwyou don't need to look at keyboard to use it20:09
ali1234yes i do20:10
DJonesczajkowski: in rugby league, the Catalan v Hull game due to be played this evening was called off this morning20:12
diploAlanBell, you still about ?20:15
diploI know it's a saturday but can I ask you a Libertus Q ?20:15
* AlanBell starts the stopwatch and prepares invoice20:16
diploI was chatting to you and the other alan about OpenERP the other20:16
AlanBellyup, how did you get on with installing it?20:16
diploI've mentioned it and showed the guys who are starting the business the website and still not got 6.1rc going ( about to try again now )20:17
diploThey are interested20:17
diploTwo questions, how do you go about quoting for support if they wanted some offical support20:17
AlanBellthat is sold through official partners (yay, we can help you with that)20:17
=== gary_ is now known as Guest92602
diploAnd secondly, if they wanted to see it in action do you have any customers who may let them visit site and see it in action ?20:18
AlanBellpricing structure is here http://www.openerp.com/catalog/14620:18
AlanBellmaybe, where are they geographically?20:18
diploNear Bath20:18
AlanBellI can ask around the other partners and see if they have any good examples over that way20:20
diploThat would be great thanks20:20
AlanBellthe one we are putting in in portsmouth will be good to look at in a few months time, but it is only just going in really20:20
diploAlso with your installs of libre software, do you ever do Asterix installs20:20
AlanBellfunny you should ask :)20:21
diploWell they are only pricing up and getting a business thingy for the bank at the mo, I'm just giving them some options including the company I work for20:21
AlanBellthe portsmouth bunch are into telephone systems and asked about asterisk integration20:21
diploBetween you and theopensourcer I've heard about openerp a fair bit20:21
AlanBellwe use asterisk internally, but it isn't linked to our openerp yet, and we don't really sell ourselves as asterisk engineers20:22
diploAnd I'm also trying to help friends out with some initial costs, instead of paying a few k to BT for a phone system20:22
AlanBellyou end up competing in a whole different marketplace if you are a telephony person20:22
diploI used to admin our Nortel CS1000 in my last job, always wanted to try Asterix, dubious if i can set it up but willing to give it a go20:23
AlanBellthe main cost is handsets, a proprietary PBX is not that expensive20:23
diploInstallation etc included it is though from memory ?20:23
AlanBellasterisk only really wins when you do interesting things with it20:23
diploThey are only going to be a 2 man + maybe a driver company20:23
AlanBellin that case, a small efficient fanless asterisk appliance might be good20:24
diploI was debating about a microserver doing openerp and Asterix in one ?20:25
diploSee you really are the man to talk to :)20:25
diploAlways wanted to do some Opensource stuff for business but my last company used to go proprietary all the way20:26
AlanBellyou could run asterisk and openerp on the same box20:26
diploBlimey, at that price that really isn't that bad at all20:26
AlanBellyeah, dunno how many channels it does, but plenty for a small office I should think20:28
diploNo handler found. is the issue I'm getting with openerp atm20:28
diploJust about to start looking at the cause now20:28
AlanBellthere is an openerp module for managing asterisk20:29
diploI'm getting more and more sold :)20:29
AlanBellI am not sure how good it is, some modules are of variable quality20:29
diploI'm getting some data from them soon, see if i can get them set up to play with it20:29
diploPayed for ? Or part of community ?20:30
AlanBellall the modules are free AGPL20:30
* jacobw googles openerp20:30
jacobwanything that makes asterisk easier to manage interests me20:30
AlanBellyou can pay extra to have an exemption from the AGPL if you want private modules for your implementation20:30
* AlanBell creates a database to install the asterisk module in20:32
diploDo you run your Asterix on one of those type boxes or just on a general server ?20:33
diploWas wondering how well i HP Microserver would handle it tbh20:33
* jacobw runs asterisk in a VM20:34
AlanBelldiplo: on a ropey old downclocked desktop in theopensourcerer's house20:36
AlanBellI think it was downclocked to 700Mhz to run fanless20:36
diploTa, just llooking20:36
diploI really like the looks of that, click2dial etc and using openerp's partner db to display on phones customer name20:38
AlanBellwell there is a bug in the click2dial stuff, it won't install cleanly20:40
diploSeems a great project to get involved in if i can get it to do what i want though20:41
diploSomething to do of evenings20:41
diploHmm, still failing on install running python setup.py20:45
* diplo goes through deps again20:45
AlanBellcan you pastebin the output20:45
AlanBellthis click2dial stuff is doing funky things I have not seen before in the xml files for the security groups20:46
diploI've done it from just before it failed, first time it failed i'd missed python-ldap20:46
jacobw /o\ ldap20:48
diploOne thing I've never got to work20:50
diploAnd so want to :)20:50
BigRedSOh man. The imapsync I've been trying to get going since about 8am has *finallly* started going.20:50
diploWant to setup at work20:50
jacobwi know the feeling20:50
BigRedSI managed to use ldap quite succesfully against MS AD for various things20:50
jacobwcn=config is so contrary20:50
BigRedSnever got a server working20:50
jacobwstoring the ldap servers configuration .. in the ldap server20:51
diploWant our helpdesk/phonesystem and addressbooks for email all using same system20:51
jacobwthat's almost what i'm trying to do20:51
jacobwmake a single sign on for linux hosts, an mail server and a ticket system as well as provide a unified address book20:52
AlanBelldiplo: hmm, running the setup.py isn't really required normally20:52
diploI can't seem to get it to work "No Handler found" and 2 posts ive found so far reference this one20:53
diploThat says to do that20:53
diploI'm guessing i'm missing a dependancy some where20:53
diploGoing to go through TheOpenS's tut again and make sure i installed them all20:54
AlanBellall from the server and web installs20:54
diploIt starts without errors20:54
diploAll dependancies are there, just added .log file in the openserver.conf and noerrors20:58
diploIt works20:58
diplolol, should have tested again before20:58
diploone of the python ones missing20:58
diplodefault user ?20:59
AlanBellthere is a superadmin user with just a password set to admin, that one can create databases, each database will have an admin user that you can change the password of20:59
diploThink i still have stuff to sort yet :)21:00
diploOpenERP Server Error21:00
diploClient Traceback (most recent call last):21:00
diplo  File "/opt/openerp/server/openerp/addons/web/common/http.py", line 176, in dispatch21:00
diplo    response["result"] = method(controller, self, **self.params)21:00
diplosaying database not set, guessing that reads from the openserver.conf21:01
AlanBellis there a "databases" button somewhere21:01
diployeah it's empty21:02
diplo; This is the password that allows database operations:21:02
diplo; admin_passwd = admin21:02
diplodb_host = False21:02
diplodb_port = False21:02
diplodb_user = openerp21:02
AlanBellnot the dropdown, somewhere else21:02
diploJust have that in my conf21:02
diploah manage databses21:02
AlanBellthats the one21:02
AlanBellcreate a database there21:02
diploooh doing something21:03
diploMaster password had something in it already21:03
diplo<-- Must read some docs shortly21:04
diploSorry for troubling you21:04
diploOooh a page has loaded \o/21:04
* diplo tinkers21:05
* AlanBell hacks out all the security from the asterisk module to get it to install21:21
diploI'm just installing modules21:21
diploSeeing how it works21:21
diploGet some data tomorrow/monday21:21
diploSo need to understand properly to import21:21
* penguin42 is trying the cinnamon ppa - it's kind of nice21:23
* popey glares at libwebkitgtk21:24
* jacobw observes libwebkitgtk glaring back at popey21:25
ali1234use qtwebkit21:26
ali1234qwebkit sorry21:26
ali1234it's incredibly easy to use21:27
ali1234penguin42: which one is cinnamon again?21:27
jacobwlinux mint gnome321:28
ali1234i thought that was MGSE21:28
* jacobw googles21:28
ali1234or does that only refer to the extension plugins21:29
ali1234gnome 3 + MGSE = cinnamon?21:29
jacobwas much as i dislike SJVN, this a good explanation21:29
popeyali1234: my observation is based around the current build failure of libwebkitgtk in 12.0421:31
ali1234jacobw: the "screenshot" on zdnet is actually a screenshot of the cinnamon website21:33
ali1234seriously zdnet, wtf?21:33
jacobwso it is21:34
penguin42ali1234: I tell you - it feels *fast* on this machine compared to Unity21:34
ali1234why is that surprising?21:35
jacobwgnome-shell feels fast compared to unity21:35
ali1234unity-2d feels fast compared to unity21:35
ali1234so called "accelerated" desktops21:35
ali1234actually slower than the 2d version21:36
ali1234"accelerated" firefox actually slower than the not-accelerated version21:36
Seeker`popey: gonna build an ambilight?21:36
popeyheh, no, but i thought it was cool21:36
ali1234i might build one of those :)21:36
popeyi dont have a flat wall behind my telly21:36
ali1234i bought a load of RGB LEDs21:37
ali1234no idea what to do with them21:37
Seeker`Will probably start the software writeup part tomorrow21:37
ali1234how do you capture the screen without hammering the CPU?21:38
Seeker`you don't :P21:38
ali1234how do you figure out what colours to use then?21:38
diploHow the hell have i got a fly in my front room in this weather?!!?!!?!?!?!?21:38
Seeker`Well, it takes from 5%-30% of one core of a Q6600 to capture the data21:39
ali1234that's kind of unacceptable for me :(21:39
Seeker`and the light server takes another 10% or so21:39
ali1234it only needs to write to the serial port21:39
ali1234and why is it a separate server?21:40
Seeker`ali1234: the software is written in two parts; The boblightd which transmits the colours to the arduinos, and clients, which tell the server which colours to display21:40
ali1234i see21:41
ali1234fair enough if you want to use a different colour than what's on the screen i suppose21:41
Seeker`and the server can (in theory) listen to more than one client at once, and displays an average of the two21:41
Seeker`ali1234: did you see the video in my blog post?21:41
ali1234i only skimmed the text and looked at the pictures :)21:41
ali1234how are you synchronizing the serial data?21:42
popeythe video is great21:42
popeyworth watching21:42
popeyi especially liked watching the titles to futurama, the colour of the light was really well in sync21:42
ali1234i had no end of problems with sync because arduino doesn't support any kind of flow control21:42
Seeker`it transmits a stream of serial data, with a specific header to look for to know when a new frame of data is being sent21:43
ali1234and, escape codes?21:43
Seeker`popey: actually, it wasn't; there is a slight lag there. Only worked out how to fix it yesterday!21:43
ali1234or just prevent that header from ever showing up in the data21:43
ali1234i managed to squeeze about 0.4mbit from the USB arduino virtual serial port21:44
popeyi didnt notice, it looked good to me21:44
Seeker`ali1234: No, nothing to prevent the header showing up AFAIK21:44
ali1234you'll need escape codes then21:45
Seeker`popey: yeah, it was subtle, but it was noticable with rapid scene changes21:45
Seeker`ali1234: it hasn't proved to be an issue so far (I actually got this working a month ago, and have been using it daily since)21:46
popeyhow much has it cost to make all-told?21:46
ali1234does the video have no sound?21:47
Seeker`popey: I probably spent just over £160 on it, but I thought I would need to crimp cable etc. so I bought stuff I didn't actually need21:48
Seeker`You could do it for £120 not including delivery I think21:48
ali1234how much if i already had everything except the LED strips?21:49
Seeker`a 42" TV will just about fit 2m21:50
ali1234i only have a 24" monitor21:50
Seeker`depends on how many sides you want to cover. I could imagine that 1m would be sufficient for 3 sides of a 24" monitor.21:51
ali1234well i suppose i'll want to do the second monitor as well, thinking about it21:52
Seeker`I think the corners may be a bit tight on a smaller monitor, so you might want to actually cut the strips, which would involve soldering, and possibly crimping connectors, which gets more pricy21:53
Seeker`you might want to do all 4 sides of a desktop monitor21:55
Seeker`because it is more likely to not be touching the desk. My TV has pretty much no visibility of the wall behind it underneath, whereas desktop monitors do21:58
=== ubuntubhoy is now known as Mr_Wendel
bigcalm[xoom]Howdy peeps22:30
popeyhello bigcalm[xoom]22:34
bigcalm[xoom]Howdy pope22:36
bigcalm[xoom]What's happening while I'm in Worcester?22:37
zleapnite all22:39
brobeanshey guys. my graphics set isnt detected in 11.10. i've tried updating and searching for driver with no luck. would like to be able to increase the res23:04
brobeanswhat options do i have to try and resolve the issue?23:04
BigRedSbrobeans: usually tracking down the appropriate driver for the card23:06
BigRedSgenerally googling the name of the card and "ubuntu" helps23:06
BigRedSIRC's a bit dead at the moment, might be worth trying during the day, and with the name of teh card23:06
brobeanslol...i did the above, should probs just point that out whenever asking such questions. hence why i came here23:07
brobeansthanks anyway  :)23:07
BigRedSyeah, sorry, I'm uselesswith that sort of thing23:07
diplobrobeans, any idea of make of card ?23:08
brobeansintel 82Q35 Express23:09
diploHmm most intel software just works, not used that one myself23:10
brobeanstried changing the settings in term, but i'd rather actually have the appropriate resolution. pc has DVI connector, no VGA, and the screen is VGA. so DVI to VGA adapter, with VGA cable to the screen23:10
brobeansnot entirely sure but maybe thats why it isnt detected correctly?23:10
diploCould be, xorg is set via what is sent from the monitor now adays23:11
diplocan't remember the name of what is sent23:11
diploBut you can force it in xorg.conf23:11
brobeanswill doing so cause screen lag?23:12
diploWouldn't have thought so, I've never had issues before23:12
brobeanswell i'll give it a go anywho then :) thanks23:13
diploSeems you can try setting driver in xorg to intel and force parameters there23:13
=== agk0 is now known as o0000
=== o0000 is now known as o0000o
brobeansi shall google a help article23:15
diploJust trying to find something myself, my xorg knowledge has dwindled over last few years as i never touch it23:15
o0000osome f'ing co'k munch tried to remote view me 2 times a few mins ago, how do I access a log of recently attempted incoming VNC connections so I can blacklist this noob hacker's IP?23:16
AlanBello0000o: turn off desktop sharing, and stop mapping the port through at the router23:17
diploSee if there is a vnc log file in /var/log or check syslog matbe ?23:17
diplobrobeans, From initial googling i can't find posts of vga->dvi connectors causing issues so maybe not that23:18
diploHave you tried in #ubuntu , alot busier than here at this time of night23:18
brobeansah ok, thanks for looking at that. im just looking at the xorg.conf changes23:18
o0000oAlanBell: don't worry, I found out about this attempted remote view 'cos I set my desktop sharing to ask for my confirmation.23:18
brobeansstrange that it didnt detect the screen23:19
brobeansyeah i asked in #ubuntu but no one answered23:19
o0000oif this noob hacker trys to VNC me again, same thing will happen, I'll click 'DECLINE' on the pop-up window.23:20
diploo0000o, it's automated normally... i had vnc open on a box at home and someone tried installing a windows virus23:20
diploBest just to block the ports23:20
o0000odiplo: I find that hard to believe23:20
diplothey just have a script to check ip ranges for open ports, if they find them they try and push a virus23:20
diploWhy, it's simple23:20
brobeanswhat vnc software are you using?23:21
o0000ocomes with Ubuntu usualy23:21
brobeanssurely if the wanted to view your screen, they could just disable user warning?23:21
o0000obrobeans: lol, how would they do that?23:22
brobeansthat way they could bypass the accept/decline screen23:22
brobeanswell i dont know enough about that particular software, thats why i was being vague23:22
AlanBellbrobeans: not really, that is what the confirmation thing is for23:23
o0000olook, I can't jus' go firewalling all the ports everywhere!, I need to use the Internet sometimes you know.23:23
AlanBellhowever, I wouldn't really advise having a vnc port open to the internet23:24
jacobwdefinately not23:24
o0000onot even if it requires my confirmation?23:24
AlanBello0000o: inbound connections should be whitelisted and mapped specifically where you want them23:24
diploo0000o, Block all incoming23:24
diploAll outgoing are normally left open23:24
diploon most routers23:24
AlanBella standard domestic router should be set up like that, all closed inbound and all open outbound23:25
o0000ocould someone jus' tall me the port for VNC and samba?, not as safe but a lot easyer.23:25
AlanBelland then you configure it the way you want it23:25
o0000oI could jus' block VNC and Samba port23:25
AlanBellyou want windows shares going over the internet?23:25
AlanBellreally, blacklist by default and open by exception23:26
AlanBelland anyhow, are you running a public IP on your computer, is the router not doing NAT for you?23:26
AlanBellhave you set your computer up as a DMZ host on the router or something?23:26
brobeansunless its someone on your network?23:26
o0000oIdk!, oneday I enable Samba shares, another day I enabled VNC with my confirmation.23:27
AlanBello0000o: are you behind a domestic router?23:27
o0000oI'm a hardware techie, not a programer damn it!23:27
brobeansplug in a nice corporate firewall then :)23:27
brobeanssorry...not useful23:27
AlanBelloh, you are on a 3mobile dongle?23:28
o0000o3G Mobile GSM router/connection (it sucks ass)23:28
AlanBellright, in that case you are directly on the internet23:28
o0000oAlanBell: how you respond in less than 1 sec?23:28
diploheh, i wondered that23:28
diploah he whois'd you i reckon23:29
* o0000o is paranoid now23:29
AlanBell /whois and whois23:29
* o0000o is scared now23:29
AlanBellwant to be terrified :)23:29
* diplo recommends o0000o gets a proper router with a 3g connection dongle option23:29
* o0000o is devising plans for a big ass faraday cage23:29
diploWe use drayteks at work, allows you to plug a 3g dongle in as backup23:30
diploBut in your case you could use it as default23:30
o0000oI am poor23:30
diploCould also then share with anyone else23:30
diploOh :(23:30
o0000ono software fix?23:30
diploufw then ?23:30
o0000odiplo: I has that installed, but is a little buggy23:31
o0000owhat shud I block?23:31
diploReally, it's worked fine for me23:31
diploblock all incoming23:31
diplothat doc should help23:31
o0000obut I have a local net I need incoming23:31
o0000ohow I workaround that?23:32
ali1234firewall by interface23:32
diploufw allow from 192l.168/ bleh23:32
ali1234yeah, or network mask23:33
o0000obut won't block all incoming overide that rule?23:33
diploit's explained in that link i posted23:33
diplothat will allow all local traffic23:33
AlanBellblock all incomming, and then add exceptions23:33
ali1234the rules are ordered. so you can allow all then block specific things, or block all then allow specific things23:33
diploOr you could change the default port for VNC to something random23:34
ali1234eh, that will work for about 5 minutes :)23:34
ali1234the UFW interface is pretty simple, and it has a big "on/off" button so if you mess up you can just turn it off and start over23:35
o0000osoo, exceptions added are given a priority overide against the 'block all incoming' option, but 'block all incoming' is left preseverd for the ofther non-exceptioned protocals and addresses?23:35
ali1234yeah basically23:35
AlanBello0000o: on the plus side, you have nothing much interesting under port 1000 open http://paste.ubuntu.com/838458/23:36
o0000oI don't wanna know this stuff or think about this stuff!23:36
diploo0000o, By a router then :)23:36
* o0000o curls up into a corner23:36
ali1234often 3g connections have multiple APNs23:36
ali1234some give you public IP, some don't23:36
ali1234so you could switch to one that doesn't23:36
ali1234maybe, depending on your provider23:37
o0000oso much information I really don't want the burdon of23:37
o0000othx for the help, but, you know, I wanna be dangerously ignorant about this.23:37
AlanBellso get ADSL and a router23:38
diploWill take all but 5-10 mins to set up o0000o23:38
diplothat doc explains it all23:38
AlanBelland turn on firewalling if connecting directly to the internet, or don't run services that open ports that you don't want to be opened to the world23:38
o0000omy spine shudders jus' thinking about this stuff23:38
diploIt's why so many windows machines have viruses :)23:39
o0000oI'm scared, I want my blankie!23:39
diploIf you want to use a  computer you don't need to be a nerd but you either need to learn some basics or get a router to cover your arse :)23:40
o0000odiplo: should I strap it to my arse with Cat 5e or Cat 6?23:40
o0000opatch or crossover23:40
diploBit of both23:40
o0000oscary to think I'm a qualified IT Technician eh?23:41
o0000omy spine shudders jus' thinking about it23:42

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