[00:14] this looks interesting http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/wacblog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?List=be9c76d3-7ad0-4e03-a1a0-e6f6953b8178&ID=51 [00:16] bit late for me to show up for that [00:17] yeah, I only just found out about it, I won't be able to make it [00:17] i still want to do that minicom hack [00:17] it is a bit androidish anyway [00:18] software minicom on android would be perfect :) [00:18] either that or a gateway service you can run at home [00:19] but minicom isn't compatible with standard modems unfortunately [00:19] a friend of mine had a machine, don't think they use it any more [00:19] it's only 300bps or something though, so it should be trivial to handle in software with a softmodem etc [00:19] surprised nobody has done it [00:20] well, they have, but i'm surprised nobody made an open source one [00:20] yeah, it is a good protocol for text chatting [00:20] sends every keystroke rather than every line [00:21] well, all modems do that [00:21] sure, I meant the UI [00:21] minicom is pretty horrible really, suffers from duplex issues and no upper/lower case [00:22] so i'd like to either make a jabber to minicom gateway or an android app that lets you dial up a minicom from your phone and talks baudot through software [00:22] either way the only missing piece is the signal processing [00:23] and i need a real minicom for that so i can develop it [00:23] but they are like £99 [00:23] (on ebay) [00:24] http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultratec-Uniphone-1150-Textphone-/230739036640?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Mobility_Disability_Medical_ET&hash=item35b91e49e0 [00:29] ali1234: I will ask my friend if it is still lurking in a cupboard somewhere [00:43] apparently android doesn't let you touch the call audio so that's out [00:44] but our old friend fabrice bellard has made this: http://bellard.org/linmodem.html [00:44] heheh, our old friend [00:45] ive lost count of the cool projects with his name on [00:52] no gnuradio packages in ubuntu? [02:05] [Chris Oattes] Ambilight Clone - http://www.cjo20.net/blog/?p=42 [02:07] \o/ [05:52] ali1234: That guy wrote some scary things [06:21] ali1234: ffmpeg, qemu, qemu-in-js [06:31] wheee [06:31] i demodulated FM with gnuradio :) [06:42] cool [06:44] ali1234: next up: DAB [06:44] yeah [06:45] one of the linuxtv developers has a dvb-t stick with FM and DAB [06:45] Ooh [06:45] but it uses a softradio to decode it [06:45] so, he posted some dumps [06:45] Apparently there are DAB transmissions in .nl, but about 3 receivers total [06:45] and i just worked out how to listen to it in gnuradio :) [06:46] of course it will suck if you need gnuradio to listen to FM [06:46] it's not even packaged for ubuntu [06:47] ali1234: It's always useful to be able to though, in case the robots take over [07:02] just goes to show the damage you can do with wikipedia, open source code, and a bit of determination [09:16] aloha [09:16] \o === MartijnV1S is now known as MartijnVdS [10:30] good morning everyone. [10:32] morning guys [10:32] morning cliftonts [10:32] how's it going? [10:34] cliftonts: alittle tired. and you? [10:34] well, I had to be up for work at 5:30 so pretty much the same [10:58] hi cliftonts [10:58] should be up your way tomorrow [10:58] AlanBell: Morning, thanks I'm down to my last disc today! [10:58] no snow is forecast so should be OK :) [10:59] I'm bored with the snow now anyway [11:04] no snow here, wish we had some [11:05] well you can have mine! lol === james is now known as Guest11132 [11:29] Is is possible to install Ubuntu on a machine without setting up an initial user, and then have it prompt to set up a user on the second boot? [11:29] or, first boot after installation [11:29] gordonjcp: yes [11:29] oemconfig-prepare [11:29] cool [11:29] yes gordonjcp [11:30] which suggests exactly the use-case I was looking for [11:30] hi, if I want to set up my router to allow ssh to my maincomputer do I set up ssh service as inbound,, [11:30] boot the live cd, press some keys when the cryptic keyboard = man logo comes up [11:30] then push F4 and select OEM install [11:30] is that in 10.04? [11:30] you boot up in OEM mode, as an OEM user, tinker with stuff, add/remove packages whatever, then when you are done, oem-config-prepare and it sets it up for the first real user [11:30] gordonjcp: has been there since at least 8.04 [11:30] cool [11:30] right, I'll play with that later [11:31] cliftonts: that cryptic symbol represents accessibility [11:31] it may do but keyboard = man in a bubble doesn't seem very intuitive [11:31] and was the most outrageously thoughtless thing ever done [11:32] cliftonts: rather accademic anyhow, when it is aimed at blind users [11:32] lol [11:32] AlanBell: is that what it is? [11:32] hay blind person, when you see this symbol on screen with no audio cue, press the keyboard /o\ [11:32] I have trouble distinguishing symbols at the best of times [11:33] http://projects.gnome.org/accessibility/ [11:33] http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ [11:34] those are the only two places I am aware of that you might see that symbol and be expected to know it means accessibility [11:34] I didn't think it meant accessibility tbh [11:35] I thought it looked like the guy off the cover of the Frankie Goes To Hollywood - "Two Tribes" 12-inch single, eating a waffle [11:35] neither did I, so I drew this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/HeaderMain?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=accessibilityteam.png [11:35] now it's explained to me I can see it looks like a guy in a circle standing beside a giant keyboard [11:36] anyhow, now to get the audio installer you wait for the drums at the start of ubiquity and hit ctrl+s [11:36] it's a man in a wheeled coffee cup doing a stoppie [11:36] hmm, there was that call for a new sound theme [11:36] best check they still have sounds in the important places [11:37] Morning [11:40] well, nothing's ever perfect. Right? [11:42] cliftonts: yeah, just annoying when things go backward [11:42] just left a comment on the design team blog about the sounds that must not be lost [11:44] the design team have a habbit of changing things that were always done a particular way for a *reason*. Change is good, but you have to understand what you are breaking. [11:44] well, I have faith it'll all work out anyway. [11:57] morning [11:58] (in before noon) [12:00] http://paste.ubuntu.com/837679/ not many bugs left [12:01] if you have unity you could put that in something like quicklists.py and run it with python [12:01] then right click launcher items to see and navigate to windows [12:01] bit broken with gimp, but generally works [12:03] bit broken if you close an application altogether and restart it in fact [12:36] hrm, you would of thought that balancing a router on a radiator would cause it to overheat, but apparently not. woo [12:40] AlanBell, it wants a timestamp because X uses timestamps to decide which action to take in case of conflicts (two things tell it to do two different things, newest timestamp wins) [12:52] ah, ok [13:33] Morning all from Surrey LUG [13:34] why just people from there? ;) [13:34] morning popey [13:35] o/ popey and the luggers [13:35] popey: morning [13:36] hey hey [13:38] popey, surrey is in a different time zone, at least 2 hours before GMT? [13:39] all time is relative, lunchtime doubly so [13:40] time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so, to quote more accurately [13:41] hhgttg. :) [13:41] ford prefect. [13:41] most people have gone to the pub [13:41] i have no salted peanuts [13:42] * Seeker` salts popeys nuts? [13:55] AlanBell: So I guess your chickens are out of luck for future releases of Kubuntu then [13:56] hmm? [13:56] AlanBell: Canonical dropped funding for Kubuntu [13:56] oh, interesting, I guess no pressed kubuntu CDs after 12.04 [13:56] possibly [13:57] was that bit actually announced? [13:57] I haven't actually seen an announcment [13:58] I guessed it'd be announced after 12.04 is released [13:58] * AlanBell asks in #kubuntu [14:00] everything I move to try seems to die or break.... testing KDE atm ;) [14:00] * penguin42 isn't actually too bothered about the distro so much as the packages; if the KDE packages are OK I'm happy [14:00] maybe I should try my "luck" on MS or Apple [14:00] ;) [14:01] penguin42: I can't see it getting any worse than xfce or lxde [14:01] (though I don't know what state theyr'e in compared to KDE) [14:02] what is performance of Kubuntu like? [14:04] hamitron: Fine here on an AMD hd4350 (open drivers) on an i7 [14:05] BigRedS: To some degree that's my worry [14:05] I think my main wory is memory [14:05] worry* [14:05] how much do you have? [14:05] hamitron: I think there is a low resource setup - not tried it [14:05] and the "feel" [14:05] memory is cheap [14:05] mobo only accepts 2GB [14:06] that is OK for general use [14:06] but I just find *buntu sluggish sometimes [14:06] starts up loads faster than a lot of stuff, but then never feels snappy [14:08] the chickens may have to switch to Ubuntu server in the 12.10 cycle [14:08] I will ofc try unity before deciding to move from the default supported UI [14:09] chickens? :| [14:09] http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/05/28/ubuntu-uk-loco-cds/ [14:12] :)) [14:12] I better get stuff sorted before the match starts [14:12] bbl o/ [14:15] regarding the man = keyboard, i always though it meant "hey you, press a key" [14:18] ali1234: are you sat next to me? [14:19] bloke next to me just asked what person = keyboard means [14:20] and i was reading about baader-meinhof phenomenon last night. true story [14:20] * penguin42 wonders if the gov just use e-petitions as a way of finding evil nasty opinionated people to keep an eye on [14:20] it is cryptic to those in the know [14:20] but no, i was just reading the scroll back from this morning [14:21] erm [14:22] ubuntu 12.04 only installs if the host supports pae? [14:22] this seems somewhat um.. odd [14:22] that will be the 32 bit CD [14:22] got a chap here with an old but usable thinkpad which doesn't have / support pae [14:22] yes [14:22] should I use the 64-bit cd? (no idea if the cpu supports 64-bit) [14:22] no pae and no 64 bit [14:22] sorry i cant parse that [14:23] How much RAM does he have? [14:23] MartijnVdS: does it matter? [14:23] 1.5GB [14:23] popey: PAE is only used for addressing >4GB of RAM [14:23] sure [14:23] but i cant even boot the install cd [14:23] I would try 64bit if it will do that [14:24] its a pentium M class cpu, thinkpad x40 [14:24] MartijnVdS: I think there have been efforts to standardise on using the PAE kernel even for smaller machines just to avoid having to test two kernel sets [14:24] penguin42: ah, sure. But then the kernel should degrade gracefully [14:24] nod [14:25] there's nothing in the Technical Overview (release notes) [14:25] fun: http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsw.php - near to the edges of margin on the UK electricity grid for this evening - fortunately these type of warnings are rare [14:26] penguin42: empty page with to "Loading, please wait" ? [14:26] two [14:26] MartijnVdS: On Chrome? It doesn't like chrome [14:27] chrome, yes [14:27] what am I looking at? [14:28] A prediction that not enough power will be available? [14:29] MartijnVdS: The top one (most recent) is that there is enough but it's too close to the edge for what they like [14:30] Next is tea/kettle rationing? ;) [14:30] MartijnVdS: The one issued earlier at 10:24 was heavier saying that 'Demand control imminent' which I think is when they say to large industrial consumers to turn off [14:30] I love how it's that public [14:30] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-November/034399.html [14:30] You won't see that in .nl [14:30] MartijnVdS: Although that's the kind of large industrial users who strike a bargain price on the basis they might get told that [14:31] the discussion about non-pae [14:31] so what CPU is it that is not working? [14:31] MartijnVdS: http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm has a lot more stats - if you look there is a graph of our flow to/from you on our interconnect and there is also wind production predictions [14:31] oh, nvm, pentium M [14:32] yeah, that's... old [14:32] an M isn't *that* old - and there is quite a range of M's [14:33] popey: What speed M is it you have? [14:34] 1.6GHz [14:34] it's a perfectly acceptable laptop by the look of it [14:34] not some manky old crap [14:34] MartijnVdS: I think the combination here is that the prediction is we'll have low wind this evening, and we're mostly warning on coal today (reserving gas because of the shortages at the moment?) and if we're low on wind it's likely that .nl may be as well so we won't be able to get from you this evening [14:34] popey: So that thing you linked to said ~400MHz Pentium M didn't have PAE - but a 1.6GHz is *much* newer [14:35] penguin42: Time to fire up the ol' nukes! ;) [14:36] MartijnVdS: Well those graphs show we do have the nukes on full [14:36] clearly we need more nuclear plants with modern designs [14:37] gordonjcp: Although I don't like nukes, I do agree they're the only current solution [14:37] what's not to like? [14:37] they're compact, clean and efficient [14:37] gordonjcp: Very very occasionally they go very wrong [14:37] okay, they're expensive to build but they have a long service life [14:37] gordonjcp: Or efficient links to France, they have lots of nukes :) [14:38] penguin42: that's not a big deal [14:38] MartijnVdS: Well yes we have a 2GW link to France, and you can see some of the time today we were selling them power [14:38] gordonjcp: No? I'd say that at the moment I'd agree I'd prefer the risk to the lights going out [14:38] gordonjcp: But the guys in Japan might disagree at the moment [14:39] bug 930447 [14:39] Launchpad bug 930447 in linux (Ubuntu) "Unable to Install Ubuntu 12.04 on Pentium M x86 Laptop due to PAE kernel" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/930447 [14:39] penguin42: the real problem is that the vast majority of nuclear reactors in the world date from the same era as split-windscreen Morris Minors [14:39] hello === zleap is now known as zleap-lugmeet [14:40] hello [14:40] gordonjcp: True, but you're always going to find things that you could have done better in a design compared to 30 years ago, so whatever we build now is going to look crazy in 30 years time [14:41] penguin42: right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't scrap the existing reactors and build new ones [14:41] gordonjcp: Agreed, and we really need to start doing that _now_ (actually years ago) [14:42] yup [14:49] popey: so we have http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/linux-image-3.2.0-15-generic but it is impossible to get to it right? [14:50] popey: maybe put the hdd in a more modern CPU computer, install it and then install linux-image-generic, then put it back in the old one [14:50] hehe [14:50] the hdd is an ide ssd [14:50] so yeah, thats possible [14:50] Apparently the mini iso still works to install from I'm told. [14:50] usb HDD cradle? [14:50] ahhh! [14:51] popey: So it looks like the age of the PentiumM's affected was just wrong in the original thread [14:51] * popey will fiddle, thanks for the suggestions [14:59] afternoon [14:59] * danfish is thinking of getting an amd fusion laptop [15:00] anyone here running ubuntu on one and if so all good? [15:03] penguin42: Found the Dutch electicity net news feed :) http://www.tennet.org/bedrijfsvoering/OperationeleBerichtgeving.aspx [15:04] penguin42: but it's more "market" news [15:06] MartijnVdS: Ah it does have some of the data; http://www.tennet.org/english/bsmailfax/20120211_084905_Extra_biedingen_en_mogelijke_inzet_noodvermogen.html seems to be the equivalent warning [15:07] penguin42: Yes [15:25] o/ [15:28] really not impressed by the Unity API documentation [15:30] I recommend a listen to first few seconds of lastest Linux Outlaws podcast - a good reminder to us all courtesy of Jean Luke Pichard http://feeds.feedburner.com/linuxoutlaws-ogg [15:31] [could actually be a Ubuntu moto? [15:51] * SuperEngineer avoids temptation to add political comment to end of that one ;) [15:52] * BigRedS imagines Shuttleworth on a purple MX bike [16:08] I'm watching the Everton - Chelsea game [16:08] Is David Luiz playing as a centre-back or an attacking midfielder?! [16:09] OmNomDePlume: I think he's wicket keeper :P [16:10] Had no idea Brazil had a cricket team. [17:08] neither did they [17:11] evening [17:11] dutchland has a cricket team [17:11] dutchland? [17:11] yeah, the land of the dutch [17:11] obviously [17:12] talking of dutch, haven't heard from dutchie here for a while [17:12] this is curious [17:12] must be enjoying the student life too much [17:12] these students :p [17:17] jacobw: the internets didn't exist when I was a studcent :( [17:18] I'm not sure we had ecletricity [17:19] lol [17:27] if you run this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/sanity.py in python you should get reasonably functional window quicklists [17:28] so right click on running things in the unity launcher bar and you see all the relevant window titles, click to focus on them [17:39] i'm still here! [17:39] student life is busy [17:39] :) [17:55] I am just opening up lots of windows and then going to *the one I want to*, it is great [17:58] dutchie: hope you are having fun at oxford poly ;) [18:01] * danfish is upgrading to 12.04 and will check out AlanBell's script later [18:02] ooooh AlanBell [18:02] thats really good [18:03] :) [18:03] danfish: oi [18:04] popey: it deals with adding and removing and renaming windows, and applications closing and re-opening, I can't make it go wrong now [18:04] dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.UnknownMethod: Method "RunningApplicationsDesktopFiles" with signature "" on interface "org.ayatana.bamf.matcher" doesn't exist [18:04] I dunno if there is a design team edict that window quicklists are verboten [18:04] AlanBell: can you make it do tabs ? [18:04] AlanBell: are you on precise? [18:05] dutchie: yes, but it should work on older unity I expect [18:05] popey: not with the bamf api, that just sees windows. It renames based on what tab you are in mostly [18:05] apparently not [18:06] dutchie: ok :( [18:06] AlanBell: see exception above [18:06] is there anything i might need to install? [18:06] * danfish got dutchie's error on another 12.10 laptop [18:06] ah, must be a new method [18:07] guys, how can i disable the functionality in unity where the buttons get put on the panel when maximised? i've disabled global menu, but my buttons are on the right, so hidden buttons on the left is not working for me [18:07] there might be a python dependency of some kind [18:07] evening [18:08] s/12.10/11.10 [18:09] czajkowski: looking forwrards to the rubgy? [18:09] 18:08:29 < danfish> s/12.10/11.10 [18:09] um [18:09] https://code.launchpad.net/~mhr3/bamf/non-chatty-signals/+merge/88462 < looks like that introduced it [18:09] danfish: always [18:10] and was approved ~3 weeks ago [18:10] so precise only [18:10] ah, will wait until upgrade finished [18:11] czajkowski: will probably the deciding game of the tournament [18:12] danfish: annoying match at 8pm [18:13] danfish: how are england v italy doing ? [18:15] czajkowski: englandwon by 4pts....just [18:16] so, anyone know how to disable the "maximus" functionality in unity?:( [18:17] oimon1: not sure butdoes ccsm have the option? [18:18] evening all [18:18] danfish: can't see anything, there might be a hidden gconftool function [18:20] keep looking at ways that i can make unity usable for me, but right now it doesn't rally look like unity at all, so i might as well use xfce or something (although i like and use desktop zoom in compiz a lot) [18:21] * danfish is using xfce on my lappie at the mo as it's a rubbish lap [18:36] hello [18:50] hello! [18:54] pip pip [18:54] \o [18:59] danfish: wow that was close [19:05] [Tony] A man, a cupcake, a photobooth - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/02/11/a-man-a-cupcake-a-photobooth/ [19:11] anyone else using the ambiance theme? [19:22] czajkowski, think so [19:22] i find the theme seems to change at random for no aparant reason [19:23] theme hasn't changed [19:23] just trying to see things using the theme has become difficult [19:25] hmm [19:25] it seems fine here [19:27] hmm, checking this out got distracted by the removeable media settings, it does not seem to list usb flash drives [19:27] clickong on more networks pops out a small window which wont show up on screen capure but can barely be seen http://twitpic.com/8ikzgu/full [19:27] reading pdfs changing the size on menu is to dark to read [19:28] what am i looking for there, the console window looks clear as does the menu [19:29] the drop down menu for wifi networks [19:30] wired networks are not available then [19:30] I click on more networks [19:31] and a small box pops out but I cant see whats i it [19:31] ah, i am on wired so can't check that out here [19:32] np [19:32] do you get the same issue in 12.04 b2 ?> [19:33] so is this dodge window thing refering to the side bar hiding, its changing to always visible or something [19:34] yes, and yes [19:34] ok [19:34] AlanBell: evenimn [19:34] that may be handy as i keep getting the side bar pop up when i try and close apps [19:34] czajkowski: next time I am in London I will see what the more networks thing does czajkowski [19:34] i assume then when apps go full screen, they will stop at the side bar, [19:35] zleap: they do [19:35] ok [19:35] thats better too [19:35] and there is a launcher on every monitor now [19:35] nice [19:35] dunno where gord is putting his hud [19:36] so will we still have menus [19:36] czajkowski: i get that more networks issue [19:36] I guess it pops out of the launcher on the monitor containing the focussed application [19:36] for now [19:36] ok [19:36] so what happens if people can't type very well but can use a mouse [19:36] what happens if we are using a program that uses meta and alt? [19:36] there will be menus [19:37] ah [19:37] so menus are not going fully [19:37] some articles / comments seem to imply that [19:37] ali1234: if you want to to alt+prtscr you are out of luck because gord grabbed your alt key [19:37] zleap: yeah, they are wrong [19:37] popey: oh good not just me :) [19:37] AlanBell: yeah. normally i would just remap it to meta but unity steals that too [19:38] great, cos alt-printscreen is for sysrq kernel hacking stuff, which is handy [19:38] http://ubuntuone.com/25nKPCS3rAJAM4qFEIRWyV [19:38] over-design again [19:38] yeah, I stop unity stealing super because I use super+mousewheel for enhanced zoom [19:38] yeah [19:38] popey: someone isn't a unity fan? [19:38] and I turn off the shortcut overlay too [19:39] popey: I think you need to plug that in [19:39] oh on mini features like this on network connection information, can we have a way to save that info to a file [19:40] is shortcut overlay 12.04 only ? [19:40] alt-printscreen is for screenshot of the current window [19:40] it's the old story: application designers assume you will only use their application and no others, so they design it to use as much resources/conflicting keyboard shortcuts/etc as possible. and it might work well if they are right and you never use anything else [19:40] print screen is a pain i keep accidentally hitting it [19:41] AlanBell: it just died when i was getting the power lead ☺ [19:41] doesn't really make much sense when the application in question is specifically supposed to be used to manage other applications [19:41] ali1234: http://trendsupdates.com/openoffice-mouse-a-computer-mouse-with-18-buttons-and-a-joystick/ [19:42] that is the alternative to key binding clashes [19:42] rebooted and that issue has gone away [19:42] the alternative to key binding clashes is for window managers not to use key bindings [19:42] instead, they should just use mouse input [19:43] nah [19:44] ali1234, or use the command line [19:44] everything should be keyboard navigable, and should be accessible to orca [19:44] like emacs etc [19:44] however some of the unity keybinding choices are a bit suspect [19:44] any time i have to look away from the screen and at the keyboard it slows me down [19:45] it is much more efficient to launch programs with the mouse rather than look down at the keyboard to press meta-1 to open a nautilus or whatever [19:45] the speccy hasd several commands on each key, with several key bindings to call up different basic commands [19:45] sure [19:45] if you think using the keyboard for this is faster you must have extremely poor mouse skills [19:45] no, I don't [19:45] lots of people do though [19:45] I think it should be *possible* to do everything from the keyboard [19:45] i agree [19:46]