[00:00] heh gn all! [00:00] dude, its morning now ;) [00:00] bah >:| [00:28] heck the recaptcha captures are getting almost too hard for me to read [00:41] penguin42: they're running out of source material! Only books in ancient greek to turn into captchas! [00:42] directhex: I think they're going to start using Korean next === chalced is now known as chalcedony [01:49] If you fork something under the GPL and the copyright header contains the project name / author, should you change those or leave them intact? [01:50] because I know there's the whole "You shouldn't fork it under our name" thing but there's also the "You shouldn't modify the copyright header" thing [01:50] Azelphur: Generally, people seem to add their name to it [01:50] I see [01:50] but you'd need legal advice if you're after, er, legal advice :) [01:50] haha, was hoping it'd be a known thing seeing as lots of people fork things [01:51] ah, no, i think it's just accepted that most things under the GPL are done so by people more interested in seeing its spirit upheld than necessarily its letter [01:51] indeed [01:51] so most people aren't *that* concerned about sticking to the minutae of it [01:53] *shrug* [01:53] it depends if the project ame is trademarked or not [01:54] like firefox is trademarked [01:54] yeah, hence iceweasel and whatever the one in Arch is [01:55] er, parabola I suppose. Arch doesn't mind not-that-free [01:55] I see [01:55] otoh if it isn't a project in the grip of commercial marketing companies, nobody will care [01:55] like if you fork gcc and don't rename it, nobody will care [01:56] hehe [01:56] if you fork firefox and don't rename it, expect lawyers to contact you if it gets popular [01:57] xD [01:58] if you fork gcc and don't rename it no one will care because no one will ever know about it [02:17] ali1234: tis pretty funny, some dev just released a decompiler for sourcemod plugins (source engine game server plugins) and there are a bunch of people panicing because they have released plugins to people with passwords for a shared MySQL db in them, rofl [02:17] errrrr..... [02:17] "If you did that, your security was already compromised ages ago" [02:17] you don't need a decompiler to get that information [02:17] exactly haha [02:17] strings or wireshark will get it for you i bet [02:18] yep, exactly what I said [02:18] so what language are they written in anyway? [02:18] I was even friendly enough to offer the worried people some support in rewriting their plugins in a more security conscious manner lol [02:18] ali1234: it's a custom language [02:18] what's it like? [02:19] ali1234: I think you'd like it tbh, C like syntax, it's built on top of this http://www.compuphase.com/small.htm [02:19] is it anyway related to QuakeC? [02:19] ali1234: the guy who made it is rather brilliant, he got ninja'd by the mozilla developers and works on jaegermonkey now [02:19] I don't think so no [02:52] hello, is it possible to change the weekdays in ClearWeather Screenlets to German language? [03:01] testing 1 2 3 === sagaci_ is now known as sagaci === tidenburg is now known as TwoByte|Tidenbur === TwoByte|Tidenbur is now known as TwoByte [08:47] morning all! [08:47] morning [08:48] 12.04 installed on this laptop and seems ok [08:48] AlanBell: how are the chickens coping in this cold snap? [08:48] I found a frozen egg this morning, it had a crack in it due to expansion of the contnet [08:49] content [08:49] generally they are fine, I just give them a bit of extra corn to keep them warm [08:50] they have a fast metabolism and quite a high body temperature [08:52] * danfish has a pair of ducks arriving next month :) [08:52] wow [08:56] a pair of gressinghams - apparently they are very aggressive towards foxes [09:07] boy/girl pair? [09:14] yup [09:15] "crispy" and "peking" [09:58] hrmm, does ducks lay eggs? well, obviously they do, what i mean is... are they as useful as chickens in the egg production department? :) [09:58] they are not as productive [09:59] and you have to collect the eggs quick and cook them well, the shells are a bit porus [09:59] http://www.omlet.co.uk/guide/guide.php?view=Ducks&cat=Eggs&sub=eggs [10:00] Morning [10:05] morning all [10:07] * TheOpenSourcerer goes to cook some lovely green back bacon for breakfast, perhaps with an egg or three [10:11] mmmmm bacon [10:42] good morning everyone. [10:42] good morrow [10:42] morning dwatkins [10:49] pip pip [10:50] morning popey === jason is now known as Guest16010 [11:13] I am collecting USB cables, there are many types. [11:16] hah [11:16] 16km. -2°C. Argh :) [11:17] dwatkins: A-B, A-MiniB, A-MicroB, MicroB-FemaleA (OTG!)... [11:22] MartijnVdS: absolutely, far too many of the little things [11:31] My legs hurt. [11:32] Well if you will run 16km, MartijnVdS ;) [11:33] dwatkins: yes that might have something to do with it ;) [12:05] [Kwabena Aning] A standalone java/jar application from Scala sources using Proguard - http://blog.kaning.co.uk/archives/325 [12:17] * danfish has just put cyanogen's ICS on my desire - so far very good [12:21] * MartijnVdS looks at his galaxy nexus [12:22] * brobostigon hugs his htc dream, but wants something new. [12:26] sigh, no ics without nexus s [12:27] Haven't they ported ICS to the N1 as well? [12:30] * dwatkins has a HTC Desire HD with CM7 [12:34] MartijnVdS: CM have [12:36] * jacobw has DHD with MIUI 2.2.10 [12:38] danfish: I was cheated! [12:39] jacobw: I hadn't seen that distro, how does it compare to stock Android and/or Cyanogenmod? [12:39] dwatkins: its much better [12:39] dwatkins: improved UI [12:40] This reminds me, I should backup my SD card and savegames ;) [12:40] czajkowski: twas a very late decision to abort! [12:42] danfish: indeed [12:46] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls_ReDhHO2g [12:46] obv, not stable. [12:46] but, ics on dhd! [12:52] dhd? [12:52] Desire HD [12:52] ah [12:53] oh dear, the french really do use Mo and Go for sizes [12:53] penguin42: yeah, Megaoctet, etc. [12:53] :| [12:53] dwatkins: I thought it was an affliction reserved for standards docs [12:54] penguin42: there's an institute in Paris which is charged with protecting the French language, and ensuring that things like CDs are called "disque compact" instead of using the English words. [12:54] i guess it solves the Mb || MB ? problem [12:55] dwatkins: Yeh [12:56] off-topic, but at supermarket loaf of bread = £1.50 vs £1 for 1.5kg of flour (=3 loaves + kids having lots of fun!) [12:59] (+ electricity, washing, yeast costs) [13:00] danfish: totally [13:01] yeast is like 50p for 200g [13:03] I'm quite tempted to get a bread making machine, but I guess you can do it in the oven easily enough. [13:04] "Remember, bread making is not an exact science" [13:05] I don't really "get" breadmaking machines [13:05] they do all the fun bits [13:06] heh yeah, my brother has one that they use every day - saves a lot of time [13:06] what I've started doing is just making the dough really wet and leaving it overnight [13:06] I guess it's fun at first but if you have to do it every day it becomes a chore. [13:07] pap it in the oven at 6am and go back to bed for half an hour [13:07] What does leaving it over night do to the dough? [13:07] well the gluten chains link up slowly without kneading [13:07] it does need to be quite wet though [13:07] aha, I see [13:10] gordonjcp: '6am' - what's that? [13:10] it's when I get up to stick bread in the oven, on baking days [13:15] We use our bread maker very frequently. It's the most used "kitchen gadget" evah! [13:15] Before we go to bed, stick some bits in the machine, wake up and we have fresh bread :-) [13:16] Great for quickly knocking up pizza dough, takes 45 minutes and happens whilst you are doing something else. [13:16] Great for making roll dough or naan bread dough or loads of other bread-based things. A very, very useful device IMO. [13:21] * brobostigon imagines a margarita. :) [13:23] I like making pizza dough though [13:23] or any bread dough [13:23] * MartijnVdS is baking banana cake [13:23] mix it up, let it rise a bit, knock it back, then knead it [13:24] and the problem is people don't knead their bread enough [13:24] the simple answer is to stick on the 12" of Blue Monday [13:24] when i was an undergrad, we bread machined all the time [13:24] it's the right speed and length [13:24] constant bread mahine workflow, thanks to someone always being awake due to switching to the wrong timezone to play online games [13:25] Banana cake > * [13:25] well [13:25] banana cake with chocolate > banana cake > * [13:25] oooo [13:26] directhex: you should just start a bakery [13:27] directhex: like the kind of underground supper club movement where people set up "restaurants" in their homes [13:27] except do it with a bakery [13:28] YeastEasy? [13:29] heh [13:31] If I telnet to a machine on tcp/143 and do "1 login user pass", is that login or plain auth? [13:34] BigRedS: you can query it for supported auth methods [13:35] yeah, i just know that one works and I'm wondering why imapsync refuses to [13:35] TheOpenSourcerer: which breadmaker have u got? [13:35] BigRedS: it's not encrypted anyway [13:36] No, I know. That bit isn't an issue. [13:36] danfish: A Panasonic one. We've had it for quite a while now can't remember which model, but it's one without a viewing window [13:36] it's teh mail not moving that is :) [13:38] BigRedS: do you have access to the server log? [13:38] BigRedS: maybe it has more details [13:40] yeah, it just logs success when I log in and nothing when imapsync, er, doesn't. [13:41] I think I'm just going to scp this all to anotehr server and see if that one's any more compliant [13:41] * MartijnVdS wanders off to find a floppy cable [13:41] (yes!) [13:59] * BigRedS finds a typo in his imapsync script [13:59] * BigRedS feels a bit embarrased :) [13:59] in the password bit? [14:01] maybe === james is now known as Guest89439 [14:32] ha [15:01] BigRedS: what does imapsync do? [15:05] jacobw: it logs into two imap servers and downloads the mail from one and puts it in the other [15:05] it's really handy for migrating peopel between servers which disagree on what an imap index should look like [15:05] BigRedS: can it do two mailboxes on the same server? [15:05] i see [15:05] i.e. cyrus and dovecot? [15:18] jacobw: well, you just invoke it once per mailbox [15:18] so normally you concoct a script which you pass a list of usernames and passwords to [15:18] and generally you try to write $password rather than $pasword :) [15:18] but, yeah, this was to go from an ageing vpopmail (so courier) system to a dovecot one === tsimpson_ is now known as tsimpson [15:26] an SIS graphics card is bad right? http://paste.ubuntu.com/839162/ [15:28] let me fire up the Celeron D machine here with an SiS card just to show you... [15:29] just booted precise on it, graphics are very glitchy, to the point of unuseable [15:29] it is doing unity3d, but badly [15:30] this is a celeron 2Ghz [15:30] when I installed it at first, I thought that 10.04 had been updated from the original nicotine-and-baby-shit browns to the bruise-and-septicaemia purples colours of 11.10 [15:30] no, it was just horribly corrupt [15:30] * BigRedS realises where he recognises teh colour of his fosdem t-shirt from [15:30] yeah, this is a mess [15:31] * gordonjcp wonders what the final graphics for the 2012 Ubuntus will look like [15:31] can we have green this time, or maybe blue? [15:32] Android is going for blacks and greys, that could look quite striking [15:32] right, no mum&dadbuntu today, new motherboard and monitor first [15:33] in fact, there isn't much to salvage, new motherboard, ram, monitor, might as well get a new computer [15:33] you know how there are websites that will pick a palette of colours from a photograph, to help with things like web design [15:33] wouldn't it be cool if the Gtk themes picked up colours from the current background image [15:34] oooh, that'd be neat [15:34] AlanBell: I was looking at some new PCs on scam, box.co.uk etc [15:34] BigRedS: I thought about doing that for my website [15:34] so I could upload a new header image and it would tweak the CSS to match [15:34] I've no idea about colour co-ordination, that would help a treat :) [15:35] BigRedS: it's got to be better than 2010's delightful shades of British Leyland browns, and 2011's infected wound tones [15:36] that'd be awesome [15:36] AlanBell: I see this company Zoostorm cropping up on a lot of supplier's websites [15:37] lets try unity2d on this . . . [15:39] that did not go well [15:39] my mum rather liked the purples [15:39] I was quite tempted to buy one of their core i5s [15:39] I don't really know what the difference between the different flavours of "Core" CPU is [15:40] bigger numbers are better [15:41] well I figured that much out [15:41] Oh [15:41] That's all there is to hardware as far as I can get my head round :) [15:41] core i5s are a bit more expensive than core i3 [15:41] and core i7 is *way* more expensive than i5 [15:42] gordonjcp: i7's tend to be quad cores with hyperthread [15:42] oh okay, i3 is only dual-core, i5 is quad [15:42] aha, i3 doesn't do virtualisation? [15:42] gordonjcp: Generally the xxxx series are newer than the xxx series; so my 2 year old i7 is an i860 and the newer ones are something like 2xxx [15:43] gordonjcp: http://ark.intel.com/ is good for finding exact intel specs [15:43] I just want one with graphics that doesn't entirely suck and that supports virtualisation ;-) [15:44] AlanBell: i had same issue on my sisters computer [15:45] gordonjcp: Watch out, the feature set varies within the i range - so they might lose a feature on the bottom end of each range [15:47] gordonjcp: But even some of hte newer Celeron's list VT (virtualistion) - e.g. http://ark.intel.com/products/42772/Intel-Celeron-Processor-E3400-(1M-Cache-2_60-GHz-800-MHz-FSB) [15:48] I wonder if that would be better overall [15:48] it's academic this month anyway since I have half a tank of heating oil and a large vet's bill to pay for :-/ [15:52] good day to you gentlemen, gentleladies & non-discrimated-gentlefolk all [15:53] what about the non-gentles? [15:55] golly gosh! obut of course! ...& good day non-gentles [whew, that was close] [15:56] ar [15:56] haha [15:58] Hm. Why do none of these things that have a "share your location" thing ever let you say what your location is [16:02] well, it's supposed to pick it up from your GPS or celltower [16:03] yeah, or IP address [16:03] it's just often wrong [16:04] I just wonder why it's assumed that the user doens't know where they are [16:04] or doesn't want to say and would rather the phone/computer/website guessed [16:05] It's never mattered, just seems odd [16:09] anyone testing 12.04 *and* tried it with a Huwawei 3G broadband dongle by any chance? [as in bug #868034] [16:09] Launchpad bug 868034 in modemmanager (Ubuntu) "Huawei E220 and E1550 can't connect on Ubuntu 11.10" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/868034 [16:10] * SuperEngineer thanks the lubbotu for saving copy & paste ;) [17:43] http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004NT4GPO [17:43] not a bad deal [17:43] 12 quid for 32 AA batteries [17:43] nice [17:45] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004NT888A AAA also cheap [17:48] hey guys, I jus' got a second-hand really messy gunked up old Gameboy Color from my aunt, I cleaned it up good and is lookin' great! [17:49] the screen has a little condensation underneath it though :-( [17:49] popey: www.7dayshop.com is a good place generally for cheap batteries [17:50] penguin42: Amazon has most of 7dayshop, and much more, better off with Amazon [17:50] 7dayshop sell on Amazon [17:50] o0000o: Yep it varies a bit [17:51] anyone here know where I can get a good GBC flashcart? [17:51] no DS please, just GBC [17:53] am waitin' on a Cybiko Extreme from Ebay [17:54] the battery is solder inside, is gonna be dead, prolly not gonna turn on, anyone know a similar Lithium bat I could solder in place of the old one? [18:18] http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/YIlpMXHyiWw/from-the-nuremberg-toy-fair-a-new-linux-system-for-rc-cars [18:20] btw... anyone know of a way to filter an RSS feed in Liferea [i.e. Slashdot} to make it less boring? [19:08] ok,. next beg:. have I 'security tied down' Chromium too much [specifically G+ Angry Birds} or is it geniunely having probs? === kedama is now known as siamese [19:37] Evening all [19:39] hi [19:42] SuperEngineer: Nice car; I see that site is really attempting to get ladies involved in model building [19:43] erm sorry, they must have confused the word 'model' [19:43] penguin42: que? [19:44] SuperEngineer: When I follow the link to the page describing the linux based car it's very nice but has scantily dressed ladies playing with their models [19:46] penguin42: wot "linux based car"? are you schmoking something naughty by any chance? [19:46] SuperEngineer: Indeed that one, and no I'm not! [19:46] SuperEngineer: http://www.hobbymedia.it/36286/wirc-linux-sistema-di-controllo-via-iphoneandroid-per-modelli-radiocomandati-smart-racer-by-dension [19:46] ...ooo - the Radio Control car.... [19:47] i'll check that link myself [19:47] SuperEngineer: I mean definitely not the type of dress they should be wearing if they've got their soldering iron out [19:49] er -no - that takes me to: hobby media... WiRC Linux: Sistema di controllo via iPhone/Android per modelli radiocomandati - Smart Racer by Dension [19:50] SuperEngineer: Yeh which it says uses embedded linux [19:50] methinks your browser is pre-empting your night time thoughts for you [I'm putting that as nicely as I can right now] [19:50] sigh, I'm going to have to screenshot this aren't I [19:50] yup [19:51] SuperEngineer: So on the right side of that page is there not something entitled 'Craft RC...' with a young lady paying attention to her circuit board [19:52] hang on- got it- you're looking at the "advert£ column on the right hand side, areen't you! [19:52] you naughty person [19:53] train your brain to ignore rubbish lkie that [19:53] well I do try [19:53] SuperEngineer: but I keep worrying about them; I mean I hope she's taken the batteries out [19:54] ooooH... dear penguin42 .... if you send me your a/c number & pin number I can rectify that for you! [19:54] no! [19:54] train your brain [19:55] p.s. I'm sure she took the batteries outr - don't worry ;) [19:58] ...and inn view of [advert] content on the link I posted which may "distract", I suggest nobody else follows the link. [20:07] Anyone any good with Libreoffice ? [20:08] Not used any office apps fora few years, bit rusty :P [21:05] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bug/827382 [21:05] Ubuntu bug 827382 in totem (Ubuntu) "Coherence uPNP plugin missing in totem in Oneiric" [Low,Fix released] [21:05] more high-quality bug fixing in Ubuntu [21:05] "oh it doesn't work so we took it out of the description" [21:06] yeah, brilliant [21:10] Hmmh, am I meant to be able to spot an obvious difference in 12.04 compared to 11.10 desktops [21:12] depends how up to date you are [21:13] This is a fresh install [21:13] there was just a change made that makes unity only consider windows on the current workspace when using the switcher [21:13] which i've been asking for for like a year :) [21:14] Heh [21:15] * brobostigon has a play with 12.04 lts from live-sd with persistence. [21:15] on his eeepc 900* [21:17] I'm just trying it in virtualbox [21:17] it certainly uses more ram than standard debian sid, running gnome-shell [21:19] This VM only has 1Gb ram, 64Mb graphics, Unity 3D was a bit flaky, lots of screen artifacts, but 2D is nice and smooth [21:20] normal unity is working well here, not issues yet, [21:21] unity is not great in a VM, much better on bare metal [21:21] agreed. [21:21] I was guessing that would be the reason [21:21] and really needs 1GB RAM min [21:22] i think i should be fine mostly, with 1Gb of persistence, if i need to install softwarem abd or do upgrades. [21:23] popey: i agree, i only have a terminal open, and only have 129mb free. [21:23] how are you measuring free memory? [21:23] popey: df -h -T [21:23] of my 16GB, 4GB is used by programs, and 10GB is used by disk cache [21:23] oh, disk space not memory [21:23] popey: top. [21:24] ram,* [21:24] brainfart [21:24] which number? [21:24] sorry [21:24] the top memory users are compiz and firefox at 300m each [21:24] brobostigon: how much 'cached' ? [21:25] Mem: 1016764k total, 892784k used, 123980k free, 45320k buffers [21:25] * SuperEngineer is guessing all those folks in 3rd world countries can *easiy* do that :( [21:25] brobostigon: and the next line? [21:25] Swap: 690172k total, 9884k used, 680288k free, 570964k cached [21:25] brobostigon: you have loads of free RAM ☺ [21:25] lolz [21:26] popey: ok, hmm, i think i need to do more research, oh, i see now, cached, damn, [21:26] * brobostigon scp's popey a beer. [21:26] This is a useful page for explaining things :) [21:26] http://www.linuxatemyram.com/ [21:27] continued brainfart, [21:27] :( [21:28] takes some time to get used to the global menus again, after being in gnome-shell [21:30] wont have to for long [21:30] yes, the other thingie, cant remember the name, but yes, i did read about. [21:31] do you happen to have the ppa addr? [21:31] oh, you mean HUD? [21:31] yes. [21:31] I wasn't talking about that. [21:31] oh. [21:31] menus will be switchable between global and integrated either in 12.04 or 12.10 [21:32] ah, i dont remember reading about that, that is new, interesting. [21:32] i'm so close to installing unity [21:33] has anyone actually tried HUD, is it usable, i mean, fairly stably, i dont instability, i am used to debian sid. [21:33] i have used it [21:33] mind* [21:34] its not finished yet [21:34] the latest unity is very crashy [21:34] crashes about once a day here [21:34] I've not had that [21:34] popey: ok, so i should wait abit. [21:34] maybe multi monitor related [21:34] normally it crashes while pushing against the edge of the screen [21:34] then the screen goes black and you are dumped at the login screen [21:34] nice [21:35] probably xorg actually [21:35] popey: second question, can turn it on and off ? if i do try it? [21:35] "just don't press alt" [21:36] "what do you mean your program already uses alt for something else?" [21:36] eek [21:36] eeek [21:36] also you can just uninstall the ppa [21:36] and kill the installed packages. [21:37] as I said, it's not finished [21:37] I've not had any issues with hud tbh [21:38] It's quite swish on the odd occasion I use it [21:38] ok, what is the ppa addr? [21:38] !hud [21:38] Ubuntu 12.04 LTS will include the first step in a major new approach to application interfaces, the Head-Up Display, or HUD, which will ultimately replace menus in Unity applications. See http://ubottu.com/y/hud for the background on this and discuss it in #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-offtopic [21:38] thank you popey [21:39] also, i TOLD you they wanted to kill menus [21:39] but did you listen? no, you did not [21:40] do you iron your grumpy trousers before you put them on? ☺ [21:40] afterall, if something breaks, am in no loss, so i can risk. [21:41] who here has ever had to use a program in a different language that you can't speak? [21:42] like chinese [21:42] how is that going to work out with hud? [21:42] i don't even know how to type those characters let alone form words [21:42] but with normal menus i can guess what they do based on their layout [21:43] like quit is going to be the bottom item in the first menu [21:48] i installed unity onto xubuntu and now it looks wrong [21:50] ah i made it worse by trying to change the theme [21:52] ok, looks like, the ppa, doesnt have a unity HUD version it is able to install, [21:58] I wish you all a good night night & leave you with tonight's thought... [21:58] ...I wonder what noise a bee makes when it farts? [21:58] ಠ_ಠ [21:59] bees can't fart, if you feed them cola they explode [22:02] * czajkowski frowns at ging [22:04] * popey tickles exobuzz [22:04] hi .. *snigger* [22:05] * exobuzz gives popey some manlove in return [22:05] :D [22:05] [Gareth France] Tottenham Court Road/Bracknell 11/12th February 2012 - http://cliftonts.co.uk/cubuntu/?p=86 [22:09] thats interesting, alt-tab, has show desktop. afterall, unity has a desktop, gnome-shell doesnt. [22:14] sudo apt-get install synaptic aptitude [22:14] wwops. [22:27] something else, inside alt-tab, if you hit arrow down, while in alt-tab, it shows the windows within that app. [22:28] i like that, [22:31] weird, sometimes, i can have terminal open, but global menu, shows the menus, for an entirly different app, applies to any app, not just terminal. [22:49] silly thing is, when you hit arrow down, even with only one app window open, it shows two windows, that are the same. [22:53] alt-tab is silly in just about every way [22:53] on every desktop that implements it [22:54] ali1234: there are some good implementations. like in BeOS. [22:54] brobostigon: alt and the key above tab also let you alt tab with the window showing [22:55] popey: let me try, [22:56] oh, my mistake, it is showing the seperate gnome-terminal tabs, i think. [22:56] no, it is not, hmm. [22:57] popey: i tink i have found something, it shows one window, for other apps, withi one app window open, other than gnome-terminal, shows two, always, with even one window open. [23:06] beos! ^_^ [23:06] :) [23:07] /server irc.2ch.net [23:07] No [23:09] directhex: i used BeOS as a teenager, in the mid 90's. so way before most people used and heard about it. and now, support haiku-os, but doing source compiles, and tests and file bugs. [23:09] i paid money for beos. money! [23:10] i did personally, also, for x86 R5, and powerpc R5. [23:10] if you want to be an amiga hobbyist you are expected to pay serious money for either os4 or morphos.. no thanks! [23:11] in roughly, 1999 [23:11] closed source, and gang mentalities all round. [23:11] amiga is still going? [23:11] haiku is the future, :) [23:11]