[00:05] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jonathan Riddell] 12.04 Feature Freeze This Week - http://blogs.kde.org/node/4536
[00:05] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Ubuntu Accomplishments Lens - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/02/15/ubuntu-accomplishments-lens/
[00:21] <ali1234> supposing I had a zillion png files and I wanted to convert them to jpg
[00:21] <ali1234> if i put them all on a NFS share and then write a converter program that silent skips png files when a jpg already exists (or rather, if creating it fails due to it already existing), could I run that across multiple machines - ie a cluster?
[00:21] <ali1234> it seems like someone would have tried this before. does this type of system have a specific name i can google for more information?
[00:22] <directhe`> ali1234: sounds like a trivially parallel task, but you need to manually parallelize your problem set
[00:22] <ali1234> it is trivially parallel yes
[00:22] <ali1234> i'm not actually doing png to jpg
[00:22] <directhe`> even if this means "for i in a*.png" on machine 1, "for i in b*.png" on machine 2, etc
[00:23] <ali1234> but the idea is the same: each input file creates exactly one output
[00:23] <ali1234> it's a lot slower task as well so bandwidth isn't an issue
[00:23] <ali1234> do i really need to split the work like that? can't i just let the NFS handle it for me?
[00:24] <ali1234> ie try: for i in *.png... except OSError: pass
[00:24] <ali1234> or whatever exception you get when you try to create a file that already exists
[00:25] <ali1234> th ereason i ask is because i'll be writing that code anyway so that the whole job can be continued if it is stopped
[00:28] <ali1234> i'd like to be able to add and remove machines fromt he cluster at will too :)
[00:35] <ali1234> well i'm just going to implement it and see what happens
[00:42] <directhe`> ali1234: your problem if you do it in order is obvious, no?
[00:42] <ali1234> the obvious problem is that every node will attempt to process every file
[00:42] <directhe`> machine 1 sees no foo.jpg, so starts converting foo.png. machine 2 sees no food.jpg, so starts converting foo.jpg. machine 1 finishes conversion, writes foo.jpg
[00:42] <ali1234> that supposes that my program doesn't attempt to open the file *first* and then lock it
[00:43] <ali1234> that needs to be an atomic operation of course
[00:43] <ali1234> the output file i mean
[00:43] <ali1234> if that fails, it silently goes to the next file
[00:44] <ali1234> the the first instance opens foo.jpg, opens foo.png, converts, writes to foo.jpg
[00:44] <ali1234> the second instance attempts to open foo.jpg, fails, then goes to foo1.jpg
[00:44] <ali1234> this seems like an obvious idea. it might mean a lot of collisions if all instances were converting several files per second, but they are not
[00:45] <ali1234> the actual conversion does about 1 file per minute per CPU core
[00:47] <ali1234> actually it would do this:
[00:47] <ali1234> if output file exists and is exactly 42 * 32 bytes, skip input file
[00:47] <directhe`> what you really want is a parallel job scheduler.
[00:47] <ali1234> else attempt to open output file for exclusive writing
[00:47] <ali1234> if that fails, skip input file
[00:47] <ali1234> else, process the input file
[00:48] <directhe`> let's say you have a million images, and 10 machines. you don't split it into ten 100,000 lots, you split it into a whole lot of 60 image lots.
[00:48] <directhe`> submit this whole bunch of 60-image jobs to the scheduler
[00:48] <ali1234> i specifically don't want to write a job scheduler
[00:48] <directhe`> so use one of the shelf? believe ir or not, other humans have done this stuff before
[00:49] <ali1234> i've looked at every available system for doing this
[00:49] <directhe`> yeah, shoulda stayed in my game rather than trying to help
[00:49] <ali1234> they all either don't work like this, are so low level you have to write most of it yourself, or would require me to rewrite the whole thing in java
[00:52] <ali1234> this is about the time that people tell me just to use hadoop
[00:53] <hamitron> why not just have 1 comp do it over a longer period of time?
[00:55] <ali1234> because computers get rebooted in the real world
[00:55] <ali1234> therefore the software must be able to skip already processed files
[00:55] <ali1234> the easiest way to do that is just to check if the output file already exists
[00:55] <ali1234> so, as i said, i have to implement that check anyway
[00:56] <ali1234> now, i can either:
[00:56] <ali1234> 1) implement the check in a slightly nuanced way that makes it possible to cluster the software with zero extra work
[00:57] <ali1234> or 2) go and spend a month learning hadoop and then rewrite the entire software for a feature that will save me perhaps 1 week of processing time
[00:58] <hamitron> or index the files in a separate text file, numbered, then process them in that order..... but logging to a file the ones done
[00:58] <ali1234> that's basically 3) implement my own half-assed job control server
[00:58] <hamitron> so you know which file to start on next time
[00:59] <hamitron> yeh
[00:59] <ali1234> the worst of all possible options :)
[00:59] <hamitron> half-assed is better than been fully assed, if you can't be assed
[00:59] <hamitron> ;)
[01:00] <hamitron> if it is a one off, I wouldn't go to the trouble of setting something great up
[01:00] <hamitron> just do something to get it done
[01:00] <Azelphur> anyone know how I view POSTDATA in firefoxes web console?
[01:01] <Azelphur> It was always turned off by default, but now I can't see the on button for it anywhere
[01:01] <Azelphur> aha, right click on the net button :P
[01:20] <directhe`> this is absolutely a job for condor. but i'm sure ali1234 already rejected that one.
[01:20] <Azelphur> Anyone know a little about RSA and mind me poking them with a couple questions?
[01:28] <ali1234> condor eh?
[01:29] <ali1234> well let's see. it works by wrapping system calls so my software will run in it
[01:29] <ali1234> what it doesn;t do is any kind of job control
[01:29] <ali1234> i would need to implement that myself
[01:29] <ali1234> so let's say i implement that using the scheme i've outlined above
[01:29] <ali1234> then i could run my software on NFS
[01:29] <ali1234> *or* i could run it inside condor
[01:30] <ali1234> so, condor doesn't actually help me at all
[01:31] <directhe`> nobody in the history of computing has ever thrown a bunch of shell scripts at a job scheduler before, clearly
[01:32] <ali1234> i'm sure they have
[01:33] <directhe`> i think i'm going to go to bed. you have fun with your unique little computing problem
[01:33] <ali1234> see here's the problem
[01:33] <ali1234> you have totally failed to answer my very simple original question
[01:33] <ali1234> all you;ve done is say "that's easy, use this", and then suggested a solution that doesn't actually help at all
[01:33] <ali1234> and made lots of sarcastic remarks
[01:35] <directhe`> "<ali1234> if i put them all on a NFS share and then write a converter program that silent skips png files when a jpg already exists (or rather, if creating it fails due to it already existing), could I run that across multiple machines - ie a cluster?"
[01:35] <directhe`> yes.
[01:35] <directhe`> there. question answered.
[01:35] <ali1234> was that really so hard?
[01:36] <directhe`> however, the scheme you keep outlining for doing it is retarded. but you're really not interested in hearing it.
[01:37] <directhe`> but since anything anyone ever in the history of creation has ever said which goes against your preferred technical solutions is clearly wrong, i'll leave it as an exercise to the reader as to why
[01:38] <directhe`> nothing says "it's bedtime!" like six years running a parallel computing facility, eh?
[01:41] <ali1234> on the contrary, i'm very interested in hearing it, assuming it is a logical, fact-based reason, rather than an argument from authority
[01:41] <ali1234> which is so far all you have presented
[01:42] <hamitron> isn't there a command to run a command on another machine?
[01:42] <directhe`> hamitron: "ssh"
[01:42] <hamitron> hmmm, it was something else I recall
[01:43] <hamitron> or maybe to run a command on lots of machines
[01:43]  * hamitron shrugs
[01:43] <directhe`> ali1234: fine. in my experience, this is a task which is suited to a batch job scheduler. there are two main classes of batch job schedulers - cycle scavangers like xgrid or condor, and dedicated managers like torque and gridengine
[01:45] <directhe`> ali1234: if i were to try and accomplish your task, i would write a bash script which could translate an array job name (e.g. 1098[4].hostname) into some unique set of images to process (an hour is a good measure), submit a big freaking array job, and let the scheduler keep throwing out chunks of work to needy nodes as & when free nodes become available
[01:46] <directhe`> ali1234: e.g. if you have a million images numbered 0000001 to 1000000, then do some basic division of $PBS_ARRAYID in your submission script so a single job works on, like, 60 images
[01:47] <directhe`> ali1234: batch job scheduling, and shell scripting, are solved problems. "for i in foo do myapp $i" isn't rocket science either.
[01:49] <ali1234> how will that system handle a restart of every machine in the entire cluster?
[01:49] <directhe`> the job gets marked failed by the scheduler, and is subsequently rescheduled.
[01:49] <directhe`> by "the job" i mean "the specific jobid of the job running on a failed device", i.e. one piece of an array juob
[01:50] <directhe`> or more than one piece
[01:51] <directhe`> worst case the failed jobs get marked as held, and need to be released by the scheduler admin
[01:52] <ali1234> so this system requires a database of jobs which are either currently running or failed?
[01:52] <ali1234> and presumably the completed ones too
[01:53] <directhe`> ali1234: batch submission systems use a daemon on a "master" node, which handles submission of jobs to nodes, and accounting of status. you can read historic information such as job run time, queued jobs, etc
[01:55] <directhe`> e.g. http://www.clusterresources.com/torquedocs/commands/qstat.shtml
[02:01] <directhe`> i'm totally going to bed now, i have to drive to cambridge tomorrow
[02:01] <ali1234> ok. goodnight
[07:23] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:54] <DJones> Morning folks
[08:00] <MooDoo> morning
[08:52] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:52] <mattt> morning
[09:04] <popey> Morning
[09:30] <BigRedS> Morning!
[09:31]  * BigRedS is surprised each morning to find that 'morning' doesn't tab-complete
[09:31] <bigcalm> Good morning :)
[09:48] <bigcalm> From apticron this morning
[09:48] <bigcalm> * /etc/lsb-release, /etc/issue, /etc/issue.net: Bump version number to
[09:48] <bigcalm>     10.04.4 in preparation for the point release.
[09:48] <bigcalm> Surely it should wait until April is here before that change is made?
[09:50]  * czajkowski waves
[09:50] <bigcalm> Ello czajkowski :)
[09:51] <bigcalm> Do I want this as my wedding ring or will people think it's tacky? http://www.kinektdesign.com/product-gear-ring.php
[09:53] <czajkowski> bigcalm: I think you'll spend forever cleaning it and getting fluff and dirt out of the groves
[09:53] <bigcalm> czajkowski: that seems likely :(
[09:57] <popey> gord: new ssd may not fit in x220. bay is 7mm, drive is 9.3mm ⍨
[09:57] <bigcalm> Goodness
[09:57] <gord> popey, yeah you have to be careful, intel ones you can make fit
[09:58] <popey> too late, ordered the ocz one
[09:58] <bigcalm> I didn't consider that when I bought one for my laptop. It does fit though thankfully
[09:58] <popey> http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?89168-Vertex-3-X220-compability&p=645699&viewfull=1#post645699
[09:58] <popey> might fit, others have managed
[09:59] <BigRedS> I thought there was a standard for laptop drives?
[09:59] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :)
[10:00] <BigRedS> Good Morning!
[10:01] <czajkowski> hmm on the latest update  I swich to a different application
[10:01] <czajkowski> I click on terminal on the left hand side menu and instead of showing me this irc window as before it launches a new terminal
[10:01] <czajkowski> oh but I do seem to have hud
[10:01]  * czajkowski peers at gord you broke my laptop didn't you :p
[10:02] <bigcalm> popey: found it http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/2012/02/03/white-trash-repairs-when-in-doubt-close-your-eyes-and-shove/
[10:04] <popey> haha
[10:04] <bigcalm> Thought you'd like that
[10:04] <popey> bigcalm: there are numerous standards ☹
[10:05] <bigcalm> popey: I think you mean BigRedS ;)
[10:09] <popey> bah
[10:09] <popey> just managed to slide another 9mm drive in
[10:09] <popey> missus
[10:09] <bigcalm> No worries :)
[10:10] <bigcalm> Oh my
[10:10] <popey> such a tight squeeze, the "VOID if removed" stickers came off
[10:10] <bigcalm> Whoops
[10:10] <popey> if this goes in, it's never coming out!
[10:10] <popey> (again, missus)
[10:10] <bigcalm> Take an angle grinder to it
[10:11] <popey> some people take the shell off the device
[10:17] <BigRedS> Ah, that's the lovely thing about standards :(
[10:19] <czajkowski> and compiz crashes
[10:19] <czajkowski> bugger
[10:21] <bigcalm> Why do my chair arms keep sinking?
[10:21] <bigcalm> Silly Aeron
[10:30]  * popey wants aeron
[10:32]  * bigcalm gives popey an Aero
[10:32] <bigcalm> Sorry, the n fell off
[10:32] <gord> ah id love an aero
[10:32] <gord> nice mint one
[10:34] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:42] <MooDoo> morning
[10:42] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo
[10:49] <bigcalm> Hayley's laptop has a bad case of the malwares. Tempted to wipe and put Ubuntu on it. Think she might notice the difference though
[10:50] <MooDoo> bigcalm: not if you theme it to look like windows lol
[10:51] <sagaci> or temporarily dualboot
[10:52] <MooDoo> wubi?
[10:52] <bigcalm> If MS Office could run 100% perfectly without any faffing on Linux, then I think she would give it a go
[10:54] <DJones> bigcalm: http://www.ylmf.org/en/
[11:07] <mattt> bigcalm: just tell her it's office 2013
[11:07] <mattt> "complete redesign"
[11:08] <directhe`> reformat. "forget" to back up something important like sims saves. that's always educational for windows users.
[11:09] <davmor2> morning all
[11:10] <MooDoo> morning davmor2
[11:10] <davmor2> MooDoo: morning dude
[11:13] <MooDoo> davmor2: how are you br'a :)
[11:14] <davmor2> MooDoo: tired,  but not as tired as czajkowski I wager
[11:15] <MooDoo> davmor2: why what's she been doing?
[11:15] <bigcalm> Hi davmor2
[11:16] <davmor2> MooDoo: she staying just up the road shhhhhhh
[11:16] <davmor2> bigcalm: hey dude how's life
[11:17] <MooDoo> davmor2: huh?
[11:17] <bigcalm> DJones: I don't think that she cares that much about the look of the OS, more that MS Office won't work 100%
[11:17] <bigcalm> davmor2: still full of curry from last night
[11:17] <bigcalm> You?
[11:18] <davmor2> MooDoo: She has a mini sprint/training with mrevell for her new job so got the 06:23 train to wolves this morning and her hotel is in stone throwing distance
[11:18] <davmor2> bigcalm: nice
[11:20] <popey> \o/ ssd installed
[11:21] <MooDoo> o/
[11:23]  * jpds watches davmor2 throw some stones.
[11:23] <davmor2> jpds: no czajkowski needs to be in the hotel for me to hit her with them :P
[11:24] <davmor2> jpds: the worrying things is would throw them back :D
[11:24] <jpds> davmor2: Mean.
[11:26]  * czajkowski waves
[11:28]  * davmor2 gives czajkowski an empathy hug early trains and working all day == no fun
[11:28] <Myrtti> I can haz XKCD progress bar in Ubuntu plox?
[11:28] <Myrtti> I wants XKCD progress bar.
[11:28] <czajkowski> it's not the worst
[11:28] <czajkowski> and I get to learn stuff
[11:28] <czajkowski> so win win  tbh
[11:29] <bigcalm> And you're in Wolverhampton, the centre of the Linux world!
[11:29] <bigcalm> (I might be embellishing the truth a little)
[11:32] <czajkowski> just a tiny bit
[11:38] <gordonjcp> Myrtti: man, yeah
[11:38] <gordonjcp> Myrtti: pull random facts from wikipedia based on the displayed time
[11:38] <BigRedS> Oh man that needs to be implemented
[11:39] <Myrtti> IKR?!?!
[11:39] <popey> ☺
[11:39] <popey> had to decipher IKR. I like.
[11:40] <gordonjcp> bigcalm: also the centre of Wolverhampton has pork roll shops
[11:40]  * popey uses gparted to copy/paste his partition from rust to ssd
[11:40] <Laney> Are any of the Thomas train engines black?
[11:41] <Laney> (from the "on topic questions" file)
[11:42] <jaustin> Does anyone know the etiquette about finding sponsors for uploads? Is it considered ok to prod someone on IRC?
[11:43] <popey> i think one is
[11:43] <Laney> happen to know its name?
[11:43] <Laney> the story is that I was waving at it while canoeing on Sunday and then didn't notice the approaching rapid and ended up mashing my face down some rocks
[11:43]  * Myrtti throws money at the computer screen
[11:43] <jaustin> Donald and douglass are black :)
[11:43] <popey> Mavis
[11:43] <Myrtti> please someone implement XKCD progress bar
[11:43] <popey> and Neville
[11:44] <popey> http://www.myfavoritetoys.com/character-guide/thomas-friends-character-guide.html?limit=all
[11:44] <popey> "Neville is a black steam engine who looks more like a diesel engine. "
[11:44] <Laney> yeah i think it was neville
[11:45] <Laney> the passengers were waving back :(
[11:45] <Laney> aside: the Llangollen railway is cool beans
[11:49] <davmor2> popey, gord: I looked into the code for lenses but it was over my head for now any chance you could throw together an xkcd lens :D
[11:50] <davmor2> you know it's what lenses were designed for :D
[11:50] <gord> i actually don't like xkcd :P so no :P
[11:51] <davmor2> gord: okay how about a general COMICS LENS then :D
[11:51] <Laney> RSS lens would be good actually
[11:52] <popey> heretic gord
[11:53] <popey> i would like a 'comic' lens which has scopes for multiple online comics like xkcd, dilbert etc
[11:53] <popey> search for "wedding" and it finds comics for that topic
[11:53] <popey> or type "today" and get all of todays comics
[11:53] <BigRedS> I bet there'll be a meme and a lolcats one before too long
[11:53]  * brunogirin got irc running on phone so no excuse to miss meetings anymore
[11:53] <popey> uau
[11:53] <popey> yay even
[11:54] <davmor2> popey: as I say I looked at it but the code was way over my head currently for a novice python guy
[11:59] <gord> even the python lens examples?
[12:00] <davmor2> gord: yeah I had a look I'm just not there yet
[12:04] <davmor2> gord: don't forget unlike you, I used to drive a Lorry for a living,  I've only been learning python for the last few month in any sort of serious fashion and only to make automation easier :)  I really am a newbie at programming
[12:05] <davmor2> gord: I'll get there just not this release :D
[12:05] <gordonjcp> davmor2: really?
[12:05] <gordonjcp> have you tried programming python *while* driving a lorry?
[12:05] <gordonjcp> it's possible with care and some custom input devices
[12:06] <davmor2> gordonjcp: you need all your wits about you with the prats on the road nowadays, especially in a gas tanker :D
[12:09] <gordonjcp> that's true
[12:09] <gordonjcp> text-to-speech works well even in a noisy cab
[12:10] <gordonjcp> and then I used a gearstick-mounted PTT button from a radio to enter stuff in Morse Code
[12:10] <gordonjcp> mostly for controlling an MP3 player, but one day I realised it would work with vim too...
[12:10] <Myrtti> programming python while you float weightlessly in space is possible, as proven by XKCD
[12:18] <davmor2> Myrtti: and back to needing a comics lens again ;)
[12:19] <Myrtti> I think you all need help with your unity lenses, but I'm just using my computer here thank you very much
[12:22] <davmor2> czajkowski: how was you journey up?
[12:29] <BigRedS> aptitude really needs a --dontbestupid switch
[12:31] <popey> removed linux-image ?
[12:31] <BigRedS> haha, not quite
[12:31] <BigRedS> every time I use it it seems to want to uninstall half my system
[12:32] <BigRedS> and sometimes it proposes a solution that involves removing two packages, and then when it goes on to say what it's actually going to do, the REMOVED list is about nine screenfuls long...
[12:33] <bigcalm> Maybe it doesn't need those things
[12:33] <BigRedS> well, it doesn't *need* them, but I normally want them :)
[12:33] <bigcalm> Is it a list of suggested removals or a list of what will be removed?
[12:34] <popey> anyone fancy confirming bug 932718 on 12.04 ?
[12:34] <BigRedS> bigcalm: nah, it's whats to be removed
[12:34] <BigRedS> stuff like libapache2-mod-php5
[12:34] <BigRedS> my impression's probably not helped by only normally turning to aptitude when apt-get is a bit confused
[12:35] <bigcalm> I sometimes have to use aptitude to force a full upgrade (usually linux images being held back)
[12:36] <popey> i never use aptitude
[12:36] <BigRedS> nah, nor i generally. Mostly because of it's fondness for breaking things
[12:38] <bigcalm> I only seem to need to use it on my parents' viglen mpc-l running 10.04
[12:51] <ikonia> NIS - you lose, I win !
[12:56] <directhe`> ypbind && yplol
[12:57] <ikonia> I have defeated it
[12:58] <ikonia> hail me, worship me
[12:58] <ikonia> ypwin
[13:11] <ikonia> Amazon UK - you fail
[13:11] <BigRedS> AWS has mostly put me off buying things from Amazon
[13:11] <ikonia> AWS ?
[13:11] <BigRedS> I get a feeling of impending doom at abot the second 'a' of the URL
[13:12] <ikonia> could you explain, I don't know what you are talking about
[13:12] <ikonia> and it sounds curious
[13:28] <BigRedS> Amazon's cloudy service
[13:28] <czajkowski> herrro
[13:29] <MooDoo> er czajkowski go out and come back in, you don't greet us like that now do you
[13:29] <czajkowski> I do
[13:29] <czajkowski> herrro
[13:29] <MooDoo> pah!  you're not the czajkowski we know an love, who are you?  get her davmor2
[13:30] <czajkowski> byebye
[13:31] <MooDoo> hugs czajkowski :)
[13:33] <ikonia> BigRedS: so you don't use amazon shopping due to your concerns on their aws
[13:33] <ikonia> (didn't realise you meant aws as their cloud service rather than a shopping function)
[13:33] <BigRedS> ikonia: haha, well, every time I type the URL I get flashbacks
[13:34] <BigRedS> Nah, really I've nothing much against it, but I definitely don't have any particular fondness for the company any more
[13:34] <ikonia> a little dissapointing, thought you may have had a juicy story of whiy it was bad
[13:34] <BigRedS> Er, poor I/O, poor networking, poor scalability of their infrastrucutre, poor support
[13:34] <BigRedS> basically it's pretty bad at all of its selling points
[13:34] <ikonia> ooh, I know the cloud service....you're bad mouthing that to the wrong person :)
[13:35] <BigRedS> ahhhh
[13:35] <BigRedS> oh, you wanted shop horror stories? Nah, none of those
[13:35] <ikonia> I just thought you may have had a juicy story on why AWS->Shopping was linked
[13:35] <BigRedS> oh, no
[13:35] <BigRedS> well isn't the shopping hosted on aws?
[13:35] <BigRedS> I thought that's what aws grew out of. But, yeah, no bad times with the shoppping thing
[13:37] <ikonia> it's hosted on "a" aws platfom, not the public one
[13:38] <BigRedS> oh, yeah
[13:43] <ikonia> it's a bold statment to not host it on the public platform ;)
[13:43] <BigRedS> haha, yeah
[13:45] <BigRedS> though I like the allegation that aws basically grew out of amazon having built a pretty good foundaton for the shop and then renting it out
[13:45] <ikonia> it might well be true, I'm just being a bit cheeky as Amazon have annoyed me today
[13:46] <BigRedS> haha, I've left the amazony stuff now. Amazon don't get to annoy me daily any more
[13:55] <bigcalm> mrevell: czajkowski knocking your connection about? :P
[13:58] <czajkowski> no I'm being good !
[14:00] <bigcalm> Where's the fun in being good? :)
[14:07] <czajkowski> bah I keep setting off hdd by hitting alt with irc
[14:07] <czajkowski> >:(
[14:20] <czajkowski> pancro: herrrrro fancy seeing you here
[14:23] <pancro> czajkowski: hola!
[14:24] <pancro> czajkowski: I tend to hang out here but I'm usually quiet
[14:24] <czajkowski> indeed
[14:24] <czajkowski> pancro: what did you have for todays lunch ?
[14:26] <pancro> czajkowski: oops, I haven't posted it yet, have I? kidney bean soup with onions and red wine :) a labour of love, I started soaking the beans last night!
[14:27] <czajkowski> I had yummy sandwiches and fresh fruit
[14:27] <czajkowski> so there :p
[14:27] <czajkowski> gord: popey in irssi when you alt 1 is hud jumping out for ye and being annoyingly in the way ?
[14:28] <gord> don't use irssi
[14:28] <czajkowski> clearly :)
[14:28] <gord> but yeah until a fix in compiz lands, hud will launch on other key combinations if you are too quick with them
[14:28] <popey> i dont have hud installed it seems
[14:28] <popey> ii  unity          5.2.0-0ubuntu4 Interface designed for efficiency of space a
[14:28] <popey> should that have it?
[14:28] <popey> or do I need to install it separately?
[14:28] <gord> that won't have it
[14:28] <czajkowski> it landed last night but I alt key for all channels on irc and alt 1 keeps launching hud
[14:29] <gord> it didn't land ;) you are running the staging ppa or something
[14:29]  * czajkowski knew gord would do it 
[14:29] <czajkowski> fecker;)
[14:31] <popey> gord: get the vertex 3 ssd.. oh my golly
[14:31] <gord> popey, how much did it set you back?
[14:31] <popey> too much
[14:31] <gord> think i might wait till a US trip and pick one up for half the price ;)
[14:31] <popey> http://www.ebuyer.com/260707-ocz-240gb-vertex-3-ssd-2-5-sata-iii-6gb-s-read-550mb-s-write-520mb-s-vtx3-25sat3-240g
[14:32] <popey> hah
[14:32] <gord> geez, you don't need to read 550MB/s :P
[14:32] <BigRedS> AlanBell: what's that CRM software yoyu keep pimping to people?
[14:36] <diplo> BigRedS, http://www.vtiger.com/ i believe
[14:44] <ikonia> AlanBell: do you have a cms recommendation ?
[14:46] <bigcalm> CMSMS or WordPress or Drupal
[14:46] <bigcalm> Depends what you need to do with it
[14:46] <czajkowski> anyone in here running 12.04 and use a terminal for irc?  alt tabbing through my applications will not display my irc terminal? have to keep restarting it
[14:47] <BigRedS> diplo: aha, ta!
[14:47] <BigRedS> czajkowski: I do at home, if you nag me this eve I'll see if I can replicate.
[14:47] <BigRedS> I normally do it in guake
[14:48] <czajkowski> so if I alt tab through applications I can see it
[14:48] <czajkowski> but it wont launch
[14:48] <czajkowski> if I click on terminal on the side bar a new terminal pops out
[14:48] <czajkowski> if I minimise every single last applcation
[14:48] <czajkowski> there is my irc window
[14:48] <czajkowski> :/
[14:49] <BigRedS> odd
[14:49] <BigRedS> I'll not go into my normal diatribe about working in unity right now, given your new employer :)
[14:49] <czajkowski> BigRedS: good of you
[14:58]  * czajkowski huggles davmor2 
[14:58] <davmor2> czajkowski: you tired yet
[14:58] <czajkowski> nope
[14:58] <czajkowski> had tea and bickies so am sorted
[14:59] <christel> mmmbickies
[15:00]  * hamitron is trying to cut down
[15:03] <davmor2> christel, czajkowski: see when I read that I saw tea and brickies which had a whole different connotation
[15:05] <Azelphur> how do I find out what package provides a binary in /usr/bin?
[15:06] <ikonia> apt-file ?
[15:07] <christel> davmor2: haha
[15:07] <ikonia> davmor2 reads "Dave Amour" to me
[15:08] <Azelphur> ikonia: hmm, apt-file -f search /usr/bin/java shows nothing
[15:08] <ikonia> java is a symlink check out /etc/alternatives
[15:09] <Azelphur> nothing for /etc/alternatives/java either
[15:10] <ikonia> Azelphur: if you do ls -la /usr/bin/java is it a file or a link ?
[15:10] <Azelphur> it's a link to /etc/alternatives/java
[15:10] <ikonia> Azelphur: and then ls -la /etc/alternatives/java
[15:11] <Azelphur> ikonia: the magical trail ends at /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/bin/java which apt-file also doesn't know about
[15:11] <ikonia> now that is surprising
[15:11] <ikonia> I'm assuming /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/bin/java is actually a file
[15:11] <Azelphur> yep
[15:12] <Azelphur> but still, I'm mainly trying to get it to use java-7 so if anyone knows what the arg is for update-alternatives that'd be just as handy
[15:12] <ikonia> Azelphur: sudo apt-file update first ?
[15:12] <ikonia> AlanBell: then sudo apt-file search /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/bin/java
[15:12] <ikonia> oops
[15:12] <ikonia> sorry Azelphur ^
[15:12] <ikonia> or /usr/bin/java
[15:13] <Azelphur> yep that's got it, ty :P
[15:13] <ikonia> there you go
[15:13] <ikonia> there is no escape
[15:13] <Azelphur> and there we go, update alternatives fired off using java 7, much better \o/
[15:27] <zleap> hello
[15:31] <zleap> hi
[15:40] <popey> hello zleap
[15:55] <zleap> hi
[15:56] <zleap> sorry was akf
[15:56] <zleap> afk
[15:56] <bigcalm> Quiet afternoon
[15:56] <zleap> yeah
[17:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Liam Proven] Still using Ubuntu 10.04? You may find this info about backports of newer kernels very useful. - http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/28391.html
[17:16] <daubers> o/
[17:17] <daubers> choo choo
[17:21] <danfish> afternoon
[17:22] <danfish> I'm now running 12.04 on my laptop and cyanogenmod ice cream sandwich - guess that makes me a cutting edge cool kid :P
[17:30] <zleap> nice
[18:12] <bigcalm> Where's mrevil when you need him?
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> mrivvle?
[18:22] <bigcalm> mrevel, but that's boring
[18:23] <bigcalm> mrevell even
[18:57] <czajkowski> hmm
[18:58] <czajkowski> battery no longer shows that its being drained
[18:58] <czajkowski> and doesnt show when it's not charging either
[18:58] <czajkowski> that's rather flipping annoying
[19:01] <AlanBell> evening all
[19:01]  * AlanBell has no desktop :(
[19:02] <czajkowski> :(
[19:02] <AlanBell> I have desktop wallpaper but nothing on it, network manager does appear to have connected to the wireless which is nice
[19:02]  * bigcalm thinks there be gremlins
[19:03] <AlanBell> dist-upgrade and a reboot for starters I think
[19:04]  * bigcalm shakes his fist at symfony
[19:05] <bigcalm> Respect my view damn it
[19:09] <Azelphur> popey: you have a disco ball? I want one :o
[19:10] <popey> ☺
[19:10] <popey> my brother had one in his kitchen, was always a hit at parties
[19:10] <popey> I said I liked it so he bought me one
[19:11] <Azelphur> haha :D
[19:12] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mirror-Motor-Battery-Powered-Plastic/dp/B000BN6LE0/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1329333137&sr=8-5
[19:12] <popey> thats the motor
[19:12] <davmor2> czajkowski: go into power manager and change the settings if that is available now
[19:12] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silver-200-Lightweight-Mirror-Ball/dp/B000KFZ4U6/ref=pd_bxgy_ce_img_b
[19:12] <popey> the ball
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> popey: do you also play 70s disco music?
[19:13] <popey> i do
[19:13] <popey> spotify :D
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> Looks like something to attach to an arduino .. :)
[19:28] <jutnux> Evening all
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> \o jutnux
[19:37] <CTtechguy> anyone here work with Amazon Cloud Services?
[19:38] <CTtechguy> I am looking for the best solution to move an ami to a different region
[19:44] <davmor2> gord: why o why o why does unity crash when I run ldtp scripts on software center?
[19:48] <davmor2> popey: Ha hippy join us in the 80's best of all music ;)
[20:03] <czajkowski> bah update gives me tons of erros
[20:04] <czajkowski> tonightis not going well
[20:04] <bigcalm> czajkowski: I hope you're not working
[20:04] <czajkowski> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/843459/
[20:04] <czajkowski> nope
[20:04] <czajkowski> watching tv on laptop
[20:04] <bigcalm> Ah :)
[20:05] <czajkowski> but trying to get the icon to show my battery is charging when plugged in which it currently is not showing
[20:11] <czajkowski> davmor2: need I point out to you A) I am very close by B) I shall see you tomorrow eveing and inflict wrath
[20:11] <davmor2> czajkowski: What?
[20:14] <davmor2> czajkowski: I said a nice thing and that made you rise to the bait faster than their nasty ones ;)
[20:15] <AlanBell> poor davmor2
[20:15]  * AlanBell gets out a very very small violin
[20:16] <davmor2> AlanBell: Yeah she's only threatening me cause she feels safe all that way up there in her hotel :D
[20:17] <gordonjcp> the czajkowski in the silver mountain
[20:18] <bigcalm> czajkowski: davmor2: Hayley can't make it, so it'll just be me tomorrow night
[20:20] <davmor2> AlanBell: http://g.co/maps/ch6rp
[20:21] <AlanBell> I don't need your help to stalk czajkowski, I have latitude for that :)
[20:21] <davmor2> AlanBell: no point A is me point B is czajkowski  nothing to be scared of at all
[20:22] <bigcalm> That is a little close for comfort
[20:22] <bigcalm> I wonder if mrevil would like a lift tomorrow
[20:23] <davmor2> bigcalm: he'll be across the road
[20:23] <bigcalm> Ah, not going home after work is sensible
[20:23] <bigcalm> Do we have a time?
[20:25] <davmor2> bigcalm: from what I understand they will finish at 6 -ish and meal is a 8-ish not a lot of time ask him tomorrow though
[20:27] <bigcalm> Okie dokie
[20:28] <bigcalm> His lack of online presence in the evening is quite unlike most users in here
[20:31] <AlanBell> czajkowski: did you find a home for that other ticket?
[20:33] <czajkowski> AlanBell: nope
[20:34] <AlanBell> might be able to relieve you of it, my nephew needs to come or my brother-in-law won't be allowed out
[20:35] <czajkowski> lol
[20:35] <czajkowski> sure
[20:36] <AlanBell> great, Tomas will love it :)
[20:37] <czajkowski> np
[20:49] <bigcalm> mgdm: considering using blowfish to encrypt data sent in API calls. Is it considered to be a safe method?
[20:50] <mgdm> bigcalm: I've done it before, though why not just use HTTPS?
[20:51] <bigcalm> mgdm: this will be on an internal network, still worth the time to set up https?
[20:52] <mgdm> I would, with cacert or self-signed
[20:53] <bigcalm> It'll be self-signed I think
[20:53] <bigcalm> Ok, saves me messing with mcrypt
[20:54] <bigcalm> You can't have https vhosts iirc?
[20:57] <AlanBell> you can have one
[20:57] <bigcalm> One per IP
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: you can have several
[20:57] <AlanBell> one per port, unless you do clever stuff
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> no
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> it's called SNI
[20:57] <bigcalm> Apache has changed then?
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication
[20:58] <AlanBell> ^^ clever stuff
[20:58] <MartijnVdS> well Apache has changed, a little, to support SNI
[20:58] <MartijnVdS> but IE on XP doesn't do SNI
[20:58] <MartijnVdS> so if any of your clients is on XP, don't do SNI
[21:00] <bigcalm> Ah, sod it :)
[21:00]  * bigcalm goes to play Rayman Originals on the Wii
[21:00] <bigcalm> A better use of my evening
[21:00] <davmor2> bigcalm: no it just means he isn't working right now
[21:01] <bigcalm> davmor2: that would indicate that his social life does not revolve around this channel
[21:02] <davmor2> I know I'm normal off line this time of night too though so I can't say too much
[21:07] <CTtechguy> hello
[21:08] <davmor2> CTtechguy: hello
[21:09] <popey> yo
[21:15] <CTtechguy> whats going on?
[21:15] <Azelphur> People are in IRC, talking about Ubuntu.
[21:15] <Azelphur> And elephants.
[21:15] <ali1234> we never talk about ubuntu :(
[21:16] <Azelphur> Indeed :(
[21:16] <CTtechguy> white elephants?
[21:16] <Azelphur> Yes, white elephants, everywhere.
[21:16] <ali1234> except when i;m trolling unity again
[21:16] <brobostigon> we also talk about food and beer,
[21:16] <CTtechguy> NICE
[21:17] <CTtechguy> I like food and beer
[21:18] <brobostigon> also. chilli ala popey, is good.
[21:18]  * CTtechguy is across the pond so not sure what that is
[21:19] <brobostigon> CTtechguy: popey is a user here, and a major contributer to the community, and he made his own chilli recipe.
[21:20] <popey> nah, I'm just some guy, you know
[21:20] <gord> http://i.imgur.com/wnXpF.jpg might be the greatest keyboard in the world... i don't even care that its pink
[21:20] <brobostigon> zaphod beeblebrox, hhgttg.
[21:20] <popey> haha
[21:20] <mgdm> blimey
[21:20] <CTtechguy> I read that your group has a lot of get togethers
[21:21] <Azelphur> haha
[21:21] <CTtechguy> I cant seem to find a local Ubuntu LUG near me
[21:21] <popey> where are you based?
[21:21] <CTtechguy> US
[21:21] <Azelphur> CTtechguy: probably because your looking for a Ubuntu LUG, you'd have better luck finding a LUG or Linux user group :p
[21:21] <CTtechguy> Connecticut
[21:21] <popey> can you be more specific ?
[21:21] <Azelphur> (Are there even any Ubuntu LUGS?)
[21:21] <popey> heh
[21:21] <zleap> Azelphur, well there are loco teams
[21:22] <Azelphur> that's us *serious face*
[21:22] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConnecticutTeam
[21:22] <CTtechguy> we are a small state and only a few user groups
[21:22] <popey> seems quiet
[21:22] <zleap> CTtechguy, Where abouts, or can i guess conneticut
[21:22] <zleap> sorry if there is a spelling error there
[21:22] <popey> CTtechguy: start one!
[21:23] <CTtechguy> yeah not much movement in that group in awhile
[21:23] <Myrtti> pink mentioned
[21:26] <CTtechguy> guess Ill start with ConnecticutTeam mailing list
[21:26] <popey> excellent idea
[21:27] <popey> also see #ubuntu-locoteams for the loco council who can give you hints and tips ☺
[21:29] <CTtechguy> popey:  thanks for the info!
[21:31] <popey> np
[21:31] <popey> good luck!
[21:31] <popey> you're welcome to hang out here too btw
[21:32] <CTtechguy> I just might do that...got a real good first impression from you all
[21:32]  * brobostigon is watching an interesting prog, on more4 about a OCD hoarder.
[21:34] <popey> i know one of them
[21:35] <brobostigon> ok.
[21:36] <popey> drat, there isnt a more4+1
[21:36] <mgdm> that'd be more5, surely
[21:36] <popey> haha
[21:36] <mgdm> Like ITV3 is ITV2+1
[21:36] <mgdm> or something :)
[21:37] <popey> it'll be repeated no doubt
[21:37] <mgdm> Or on 4OD, which is actually not bad
[21:38] <popey> the guy I know ripped his kitchen out 15 years ago and never installed a new one
[21:38] <popey> and collects all kind of stuff
[21:38] <brobostigon> i have more+1 here.
[21:38] <brobostigon> more4+1.
[21:38] <popey> virgin doesnt
[21:38] <brobostigon> :(
[21:39] <popey> removed years ago
[21:39] <brobostigon> ohwell.
[21:40] <popey> wow
[21:46] <popey> poor guy
[21:47] <brobostigon> agreed.
[21:48] <popey> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2076822/Richard-Wallace-hoarded-rubbish-seen-space.html
[21:49] <ali1234> considering that google maps has a resolution slightly better than 1 pixel per meter, that claim is somewhat disingenuous
[21:49] <mgdm> it's also somewhat disingenuous to say that Google Maps photos are 'from space'
[21:50] <ali1234> so basically the whole thing is nonsense
[21:50] <popey> dailymail, say no more
[21:50] <gord> technically inaccurate! the best kind of inaccurate.
[21:51] <mgdm> "a mountain of newspapers included 34 years' worth of the Daily Mail
[21:51] <mgdm> that explains a lot
[21:51] <gord> that is a lot of trash
[21:51] <mgdm> also, the DM's site does a ridiculous override thing which means what ends up on your clipboard is not what you selected
[21:51] <mgdm> or rather it is, but it has this 'Read more' crap at the bottom
[21:52] <AlanBell> what is the collective noun for a lot of copies of the Daily Mail?
[21:52] <ali1234> mgdm: wow, how the hell doe sit do that??
[21:52] <mgdm> ali1234: I'm not quite sure, though I've seen it done before
[21:52] <Azelphur> How do I up the OS thread limit?
[21:52] <ali1234> Azelphur: probably with ulimit
[21:54] <mgdm> ali1234: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6344588/how-does-financial-times-add-a-disclaimer-when-pasting-text/6347927#6347927
[21:55] <ali1234> now i will make a site like commandlinefu except it also adds rm -rf to the end of everything you copy :)
[21:55] <mgdm> hah
[21:57] <popey> haha
[21:57] <popey> brilliant
[21:57] <mgdm> I better keep quiet about that at work
[21:57] <mgdm> they'll want it too
[21:59] <ali1234> is there any legitimate use for "oncopy"
[21:59] <mgdm> I can't think of one, however I think there might well be
[21:59] <mgdm> I fail to see it right now
[22:00] <czajkowski> popey: whats the magical command line to fix a desktop on ubuntu in case things are a bit messed up
[22:00] <czajkowski> the one with the ^ ?
[22:00] <mgdm> sudo apt magic-fixy-fairies --sort-it-out^
[22:00] <mgdm> (sorry)
[22:00] <popey> depends how its messed up
[22:00] <popey> that only fixes the 'some bits arent installed' issue
[22:01] <popey> sudo apt-get update
[22:01] <popey> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop^
[22:01] <czajkowski> s/w center is now gone from side bar and battery issue is pita
[22:01] <czajkowski> popey: thanks
[22:01] <ali1234> lol
[22:01] <ali1234> you should use update-manager, it won't remove things like software center and ubuntu-desktop
[22:01] <czajkowski> I'm not laughing :/
[22:02] <ali1234> in particlar, when update-manager says there is a problem, you should read what it says, not just go and do it with apt-get :)
[22:02] <popey> heh
[22:02] <ali1234> which happily *will* remove software center
[22:02] <popey> i like the warning you get from apt-get when you try to remove everything
[22:02] <popey> makes you type a sentence like 'i really want to do this'
[22:05] <czajkowski> cannot seem to get past http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/843639/ this issue on updates
[22:07] <popey> those are warnings not errors
[22:08] <czajkowski> popey: aye but I've no idea why :/ and they weren't there yesterday
[22:09] <czajkowski> maybe I should just sleep
[22:09] <jacobw> easy to fix
[22:09] <bigcalm> Sleep and dream of curry
[22:10] <popey> someone wrote a script once to get all the keys you're missing iirc
[22:10] <popey> http://popey.com/blog/2009/06/05/Easy_Script_To_Get_And_Install_PPA_GPG_Keys/ hehe
[22:11] <jacobw> gpg --recv-keys 40976EAF437D05B5 --key-server keyserver.ubuntu.com
[22:11]  * czajkowski hugs popey 
[22:11] <czajkowski> jacobw: what does that do ?
[22:12] <jacobw> receives the key id from the keyserver
[22:12] <popey> yay, just run the script here to fix all mine
[22:14]  * jacobw is enjoying tea
[22:15]  * brobostigon is enjoying a guin and tonic.
[22:15] <brobostigon> gin*
[22:15] <jacobw> have you ever tried guiness and ribena?
[22:16] <jacobw> it sounds awful, but its good :)
[22:16] <brobostigon> no, and it doesnt sound very good,
[22:16] <brobostigon> hmmm,
[22:16] <czajkowski> nn folks
[22:16] <brobostigon> jacobw: what ratio?
[22:16] <jacobw> goodnight
[22:16] <brobostigon> good night czajkowski o/
[22:17] <AlanBell> Myrtti: popey: the onboard model-m theme is arriving in bug #932855
[22:17] <Myrtti> wohey!
[22:17] <AlanBell> I think it is the default too
[22:17] <jacobw> brobostigon: something like 9 parts guiness
[22:17] <popey> AlanBell: know of any other OSK's ?
[22:17] <popey> other than onboard and maliit?
[22:17] <jacobw> brobostigon: very little ribena is needed
[22:18] <brobostigon> jacobw: guiness 9 / 1 ribena ?
[22:18] <jacobw> OSKs?
[22:18] <popey> On Screen Keyboard
[22:18] <jacobw> brobostigon: yeah, it justs takes the edge of the guiness
[22:18] <popey> edge?
[22:18] <popey> wuss!
[22:18] <AlanBell> popey: the gnome one is caribou
[22:18]  * jacobw googles maliit
[22:18]  * popey googles caribou
[22:18] <brobostigon> jacobw: i will try a tiny amount,so i dont wreck a whole pint,
[22:18] <AlanBell> https://live.gnome.org/Caribou
[22:19] <popey> oh, not ready
[22:19] <AlanBell> yeah, nowhere near onboard standards
[22:19] <AlanBell> NIH
[22:20] <popey> ☹
[22:20] <jacobw> http://labs.teague.com/?p=1451
[22:20] <ali1234> i can't really blame them for not using onboard, it is absolutely awful
[22:20] <AlanBell> onboard could be the GNOME on screen keyboard, if it wasn't started as an Ubuntu summer of code project
[22:20] <Myrtti> so if I upgrade my tablet on to precise I should be getting that onboard exactly when or already?
[22:20] <ali1234> onboard is roughly as good as the oscreen keyboard app on the amiga
[22:21] <popey> there are too few decent OSKs
[22:21] <AlanBell> Myrtti: it should go in with the feature freeze rush, before friday
[22:21] <Myrtti> ALRIGHT
[22:21] <Myrtti> finally a good enough reason to upgrade some device into precise
[22:21] <AlanBell> ali1234: yeah, but by friday it sould be slightly better
[22:21] <ali1234> some of the problems of onboard include: does not automatically appear when needed, does not follow the look and feel of the desktop, has too many keys
[22:21] <AlanBell> it will pop up when you are in an editable field
[22:21] <AlanBell> it has multiple layouts
[22:22] <ali1234> multiple layouts are not what is required
[22:22] <ali1234> please look at the onscreen keyboard of any recent mobile phone and make a copy of that
[22:22] <AlanBell> "does not automatically appear when needed" fixed now
[22:22] <ali1234> that is what we actually need
[22:22] <AlanBell> ok
[22:22] <AlanBell> can be done in onboard
[22:22] <popey> also text prediction
[22:23] <popey> an OSK will need to be _really_ _really_ good to get on any kind of Ubuntu tablet in the future IMHO
[22:23] <AlanBell> people use that?
[22:23] <popey> yes
[22:23] <popey> normal people do
[22:23] <AlanBell> ok
[22:23] <ali1234> please do it then, instead of making layouts to duplicate the IBM model M or whatever
[22:23] <AlanBell> I should observe some normal people one day
[22:24] <ali1234> a reak OSK is more than just a picture of a keyboard on a screen
[22:24] <AlanBell> go on
[22:24] <ali1234> notice that caribou does not have a button for every single key on a real keyboard, for example
[22:24] <AlanBell> yeah, that annoys me!
[22:25] <ali1234> also notice that it doesn't try to duplicate the way a keyboard is layed out because it serves no purpose on an OSK
[22:25] <AlanBell> I went through loads of android keyboards before I found one that could actually type all the keys I wanted to use
[22:25] <popey> normal people dont switch keyboard
[22:25] <popey> they use the one supplied
[22:25] <AlanBell> yeah, that was swype
[22:25] <popey> and if the one supplied is crap, they buy a different device
[22:25] <mgdm> I liked SwiftKey until it broke :(
[22:25] <ali1234> normal people use the one supplied because the one supplied is designed for normal people
[22:25] <AlanBell> couldn't type @
[22:26] <AlanBell> others can't do \ or / or ` or |
[22:26] <ali1234> please, android puts @ on the top level of keys
[22:26] <AlanBell> swype didn't
[22:26] <popey> iOS can't do `
[22:27] <ali1234> i've never used swype, it seems highly counterproductive to use only 1 finger to "type" (or swype)
[22:27] <AlanBell> I use the android hackers keyboard, it is just a querty layout and you can switch to other layouts and get to anything you want
[22:28] <AlanBell> it makes sense to me (as does onboard) but I do accept I don't know what normal people are like
[22:28] <AlanBell> I had no idea that text prediction was anything other than annoyingly useless
[22:29] <AlanBell> oh that thing that some keyboards do when they pop up a key above the place you are pressing so you can see it when your finger is in the way, that would be good I suppose
[22:29] <mgdm> text prediction in SwiftKey is reallyg ood, actually
[22:29] <mgdm> it learns
[22:29] <AlanBell> I tend to think of onboard as being big enough for that not to be important
[22:29] <AlanBell> and I don't have a touchscreen
[22:30] <ali1234> all OSKs do that
[22:30] <ali1234> (except for onboard)
[22:30] <ali1234> and caribou which is really more like an IME
[22:31] <ali1234> oh and windows mobile can't do ~
[22:32] <AlanBell> I am sure that I could do that finger dodging overlay thing, I will put in a feature request for that
[22:33]  * jacobw looks for the ¬ key on his android phone
[22:33] <AlanBell> I don't know how predictive text could work, but that might be an interesting feature
[22:33] <popey> http://ubuntuone.com/02jWrcfhC83MHfU76V1fRS
[22:33] <jacobw> see 'dasher'
[22:33] <popey> http://ubuntuone.com/2ymdtuFpgTo7QQgg7sf2jb
[22:33] <popey> http://ubuntuone.com/2K0QBZzIp4ocOG6ZKHuZ5l
[22:33] <popey> *hugs* :D
[22:34] <AlanBell> jacobw: yes, I know about dasher, it has some crashes and race conditions in it
[22:34] <AlanBell> always wanted to fix them but I lack the skills
[22:34] <jacobw> channel dennis ritchie
[22:37] <AlanBell> onboard can do odd layouts like that, the default ones pull from the keyboard layout files but buttons can be remapped to other things
[22:37] <AlanBell> so if you have an azerty keyboard layout then onboard will map the keycaps to what should be on those keys
[22:38]  * directhe` moos. moo
[22:39] <ali1234> btw, caribou isn't the gnome default on screen keyboard
[22:39] <mgdm> directhe`: your ` is showing
[22:40] <directhe`> mgdm: not nice to draw attention to a guy's shortcomings
[22:40] <mgdm> sorry :(
[22:40] <bigcalm> It is rather short
[22:40] <mgdm> D:
[22:40] <AlanBell> ali1234: is it GOK? http://www.gok.ca/shots.html
[22:40] <ali1234> might be, it doesn't look anything like that though
[22:41] <ali1234> it looks like this: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell-design/plain/mockups/static/onscreen-keyboard.png
[22:41] <directhe`> http://cv5.coventrytelegraph.net/gokwan.jpg ?
[22:42] <AlanBell> ali1234: is that real or just a gimped image?
[22:42] <ali1234> that's a mockup
[22:42] <ali1234> the real thing looks basically the same though
[22:42] <ali1234> http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalink/2011/11/16/maliit-the-only-real-on-screen-keyboard/
[22:42] <ali1234> looks like a serious contender
[22:43] <AlanBell> yeah, caribou is apparently the new hotness from the gnome side of things (or was last time I asked)
[22:43] <ali1234> https://wiki.maliit.org/Others
[22:43] <AlanBell> maliit is interesting certainly
[22:44] <popey> indeed it is
[22:44] <AlanBell> onboard is actually shipping
[22:44] <popey> as it maliit
[22:44] <popey> *is
[22:44] <AlanBell> yeah, but not on the precise CD
[22:44] <ali1234> maliit is actually shipping on real hardware that has no keyboard :)
[22:44] <brobostigon> good night everyone, sleep well.
[22:44] <ali1234> can't say the same for ubuntu
[22:44] <bigcalm> nn
[22:44] <brobostigon> night bigcalm
[22:44] <AlanBell> !info maliit
[22:45] <ali1234> you wish
[22:45] <AlanBell> not there
[22:45] <popey> it doesnt exist then, lets not think about it
[22:45] <ali1234> lol
[22:45] <popey> https://launchpad.net/~maliit-team/+archive/daily
[22:46] <AlanBell> well for people saying why are we bothering with onboard when maliit is so much better, the reason is maliit isn't in the repos
[22:46] <ali1234> oh look, a PPA!
[22:46] <popey> thats not a good enough reason
[22:46] <ali1234> absolutely
[22:46] <ali1234> especially when it's about 10 years more advanced than anything that actually is in the repos
[22:47] <AlanBell> so lets get it in the repos and if it is better than onboard we put it on the CD
[22:47] <ali1234> ok. well, i have no idea how to do that.....
[22:47] <popey> I do.
[22:48] <bigcalm> Insider knowledge!
[22:48] <popey> we ask daviey
[22:48] <bigcalm> Heh
[22:49] <jacobw> mkdir maliit, vi maliit/DEBIAN/control .. etc etc
[22:49] <ali1234> it's already packaged
[22:49] <jacobw> hmm, then i guess ubuntu just need to accept it ;)
[22:50] <AlanBell> should go in debian first
[22:50] <AlanBell> not that onboard is in Debian, but it is nice to have stuff arrive that way
[22:50] <bigcalm> Aren't there things in Ubuntu that aren't in Debian?
[22:52] <AlanBell> maliit is c++ :(
[22:52] <ali1234> oh noes
[22:52] <bigcalm> mono?
[22:52] <bigcalm> Erm, ignore me :)
[22:52] <AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~maliit-team/maliit/maliit-framework/files/head:/src/
[22:52] <ali1234> why is this a problem?
[22:53] <AlanBell> because I am rubbish and scared of languages that let me do stuff that crashes
[22:53] <mgdm> So you're scared of all programming languages?
[22:53] <ali1234> but... you like gtk?
[22:53] <mgdm> Including Logo?
[22:53] <AlanBell> terrified
[22:53] <mgdm> ('cos you can crash the turtle into the wall...)
[22:53] <AlanBell> those turtles with pens!
[22:53] <mgdm> yes!
[22:54] <bigcalm> I miss Logo
[22:54] <AlanBell> I like python
[22:54] <ali1234> python can crash
[22:54] <ali1234> happens all the time
[22:54] <bigcalm> Shhhh, you'll spook him
[22:54] <AlanBell> yeah, but it doesn't segfault it stops with a nice trace of what happened
[22:55] <ali1234> except when it deadlocks
[22:55] <ali1234> or produces a never ending stack trace
[22:55] <mgdm> and except when it segfaults
[22:55] <ali1234> or just plain segfaults, yes
[22:55] <AlanBell> yeah, but you shouldn't be able to do that
[22:55] <AlanBell> with C that is the normal mode of operation
[22:55] <ali1234> why not?
[22:56] <AlanBell> pointer arithmetic is just not something I want to think about
[22:56] <ali1234> so use C++?
[22:56] <bigcalm> AlanBell++
[22:56] <bigcalm> ;)
[22:56] <ali1234> only crufty old Gtk actually requires you to deal with pointers
[22:57] <bigcalm> AlanBell: did you not have an 8bit machine in the 80s and code on it?
[22:57] <AlanBell> yeah, speccy and amiga
[22:57] <AlanBell> well amiga was 16 bit obviously
[22:58] <ali1234> maliit is actually written in Qt
[22:58] <ali1234> it contains absolutely no pointer arithmetic at all
[23:00] <bigcalm> alt+click+drag should move windows in all OSes
[23:00] <bigcalm> Oh dear, what will I do when the hud gets here?
[23:00] <ali1234> threaten to stop using ubuntu forever
[23:00] <popey> still use alt+click+drag?
[23:00] <bigcalm> ali1234: too obvious :P
[23:01] <bigcalm> popey: I know little of the hud other than alt is a problem
[23:01] <popey> its not finished
[23:01] <popey> ☺
[23:01] <AlanBell> I am sure it will be sorted out
[23:01] <bigcalm> :)
[23:01] <ali1234> maybe we could have two keyboards
[23:01] <AlanBell> alt+prtscr is going to have to work really, so everything else will
[23:01] <ali1234> one for unity keyboard shortcuts, and the other for actually doing things
[23:01] <bigcalm> Heh
[23:02] <popey> openoffice mouse?
[23:02] <Myrtti> I couldn't even figure out how I'm supposed to use maliit
[23:02] <bigcalm> I've just told my windows 2008 server to apply updates. I really shouldn't be so worried every time I do this :(
[23:03] <ali1234> i think everyone is wrong. clearly a piano keyboard is the most efficient way to control a computer
[23:03] <Myrtti> I had it installed on the tablet but I just never understood how it was supposed to work
[23:03] <mgdm> popey: haha
[23:03] <mgdm> popey: I'd forgotten about that
[23:03] <davmor2> popey: that's not any mouse, that's a might mouse
[23:03] <AlanBell> ali1234: onboard could do a piano layout
[23:03]  * mgdm strokes his trackpad
[23:04] <bigcalm> mgdm: been playing angry birds then?
[23:04] <AlanBell> oh, also what I want an onscreen keyboard to do is multitouch chording layouts
[23:04] <mgdm> bigcalm: once or twice :)
[23:04] <AlanBell> http://plover.stenoknight.com/
[23:04] <bigcalm> mgdm: it appears to be the most used app on my Xoom
[23:04] <mgdm> I'm tempted to get a Morse key and hook it up to USB
[23:04] <mgdm> :-)
[23:04] <AlanBell> so you could type stenographic chords on it
[23:04] <mgdm> gordonjcp: you've probably done that, right? :)
[23:04] <AlanBell> but I think this may be another area where me and normal people have a different idea of what is useful
[23:05] <AlanBell> I am guessing predictive text is more useful than multitouch chording right?
[23:08] <ali1234> yes significantly
[23:08] <ali1234> and not really predictive but some kind of autocorrect
[23:09] <popey> yes
[23:09] <ali1234> if it learns then all the better
[23:09] <AlanBell> maliit doesn't use the system keyboard mappings it seems
[23:09] <ali1234> of course it doesn't
[23:09] <popey> the virtual keyboard shouldn't try to look like a physical keyboard
[23:09] <ali1234> the layout of a full  hardware qwerty keyboard is completely nonsensical for an OSK
[23:09] <davmor2> AlanBell: I'm pretty sure I saw a piano keyboard for gnome touch being demoed somewhere
[23:10] <popey> a physical keyboard is designed for 10 fingers always sat on it (optimally)
[23:10] <popey> most OSKs should work optimally for one or at most two digits
[23:10] <ali1234> one or two thumbs usually
[23:10] <AlanBell> yeah, I figured on a tablet you could touch type
[23:10] <ali1234> depending if it is being held landscape or portrait
[23:12] <AlanBell> does maliit use at-spi to find out if you are in an editable field do you know?
[23:12] <ali1234> no idea
[23:12] <popey> dunno how it does it
[23:12] <ali1234> i was looking for pointer arithmetic
[23:13] <AlanBell> and how do you drag it around or does it stay anchored to the screen I wonder
[23:13] <AlanBell> actually I could install it rather than reading about it couldn't I
[23:13] <popey> there's 3 ppas
[23:13] <popey> https://launchpad.net/~maliit-team
[23:14] <popey> also there is #maliit ☺
[23:14] <popey> and they're very friendly and active
[23:14] <ali1234> there is code for prediction and autocorrect in here
[23:15] <popey> it is after all a framework upon which other keyboards are built
[23:15] <ali1234> given that it is designed for a real commercial product that received favourable reviews i expect it works fairly well
[23:15] <popey> it was used on the Nokia N9 and N950 AIUI
[23:15] <ali1234> exactly
[23:16] <popey> its also the base of Swiftkey
[23:16] <popey> http://www.swiftkey.net/
[23:16] <mgdm> interesting
[23:16] <mgdm> it's nice
[23:16] <ali1234> "social AI keyboard"
[23:16] <ali1234> does that mean it will turn everything i type into "lol wat u sayin"
[23:16] <popey> nah, it automatically puts everything you type into twitter
[23:17] <mgdm> you can hook it up to your FB and your Twitter and it can learn from your typing style
[23:17] <popey> i see they put a release out a week ago
[23:17] <AlanBell> as it is qt it could in theory be stuffed into the unity2d frame thing that is like the nux layer on unity3d
[23:17] <popey> nice and active
[23:17] <mgdm> there's a mode where you can set it so that space will always insert a word, which can type reasonably coherent sentences, actually
[23:17] <ali1234>      
[23:17] <popey> sausages
[23:17] <popey> that works then
[23:18] <mgdm> though if all you say is 'lol wtf bbq wat u up 2' then that's what it will type
[23:18] <ali1234> i like _ -> i like swiftkey
[23:18] <ali1234> this is like the google bubble except a million times worse
[23:19] <AlanBell> yay, I crashed maliit
[23:19] <jacobw> it lowers the quality of all your typing to your hastily written facebook updates
[23:19] <ali1234> because it is a filter on the output instead of a filter on the input
[23:19] <popey> file a bug :p
[23:19] <AlanBell> oh, no I didn't, just got it in a funny popup mode to select some alternate keys
[23:20] <AlanBell> doesn't appear to work as an independent on-screen keyboard though
[23:20] <ali1234> of course it doesn't
[23:20] <ali1234> nobody actually wants that
[23:21] <popey> it can work as a transparent overlay on top of the desktop
[23:21] <popey> which is nice
[23:21] <AlanBell> maliit-keyboard-viewer is an application with a text field and keyboard under it, so you type stuff into that text field then what, copy and paste to somewhere else?
[23:21] <ali1234> s/nice/what it should actually do/
[23:21] <popey> well, yes ☺
[23:21] <AlanBell> how do I put it into direct input mode?
[23:22] <ali1234> AlanBell: you write a plugin that causes it to appear whenever the user clicks in a text field and then automatically send the input back to the text field
[23:22] <AlanBell> whut
[23:22] <ali1234> you know, like every OSK ever
[23:22] <popey> or you re-use an existing one
[23:22] <ali1234> yes
[23:23] <AlanBell> ok, so is there one of those?
[23:23] <ali1234> for meego? yes
[23:23] <AlanBell> so it doesn't work
[23:23] <ali1234> i don't know
[23:23]  * popey checks his other machine that has maliit on
[23:25] <ali1234> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~maliit-team/maliit/maliit-framework/view/head:/src/minputmethodhost.h
[23:25] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/maliit.png
[23:25] <ali1234> keyboard viewer is a demo tool
[23:25] <ali1234> maliit is only the keyboard part
[23:26] <popey> maliit-server -unconditional-show -bypass-wm-hint
[23:26] <popey> try that
[23:27] <AlanBell> nothing
[23:28] <gord> removed the last vga cable still in use in my house, end of an era really
[23:28] <jacobw> ok, i've sent emails to 20 advertisers on gumtree, one has to respond :|
[23:29] <popey> jacobw: what you buying?
[23:29] <jacobw> looking for a new room
[23:29] <jacobw> flatshare even
[23:31] <daftykins> i'm getting on the property selling bandwagon soon
[23:31] <daftykins> fixing up my place down here in Portsmouth ahead of getting rid :)
[23:31] <popey> daftykins: moving back to jersey?
[23:32] <daftykins> i'd been living with my oldies back on Guernsey since i graduated in '08, but getting kicked out now so i'm kind of a free agent :D
[23:32] <daftykins> used to rent this place out but it's a lot more hassle than i want now
[23:33] <AlanBell> popey: ok, it works now, kind of
[23:34] <popey> screenshot?
[23:35] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/glitchymaliit.png
[23:35] <ali1234> gnome-control-center = segfault land, lol
[23:35] <gord> is segfault land like disney land?
[23:36] <ali1234> yes except less abhorrent
[23:36] <AlanBell> it doesn't clean up the massive orange fingerdodge squares
[23:36] <AlanBell> when they fall outside the maliit window
[23:37] <popey> pretty
[23:37]  * popey points AlanBell at #maliit
[23:37] <AlanBell> I can kind of see the point about an on-screen keyboard like that, simplified until it hurts
[23:37] <popey> you're thinking of different use case tho aren't you?
[23:37] <ali1234> the point?
[23:37] <popey> you're thinking of 'replace the keyboard' use case
[23:38] <popey> not the 'type text messages into a device' use case
[23:39] <ali1234> it's not about use cases
[23:39] <AlanBell> I thought the keys not being all square and not offset like a proper keyboard in caribou was it being hopelessly primitive
[23:39] <AlanBell> well it is kind of about use-cases
[23:39] <AlanBell> it is *desireable* to have a primitive keyboard
[23:40] <popey> from an a11y pov you want ` and @ and stuff
[23:40] <AlanBell> orca isn't
[23:40] <popey> but from a tablet use case you often don't
[23:40] <ali1234> the use case you are trying to solve is artificial
[23:40] <ali1234> if people wanted a full keyboard they would plug one in
[23:40] <ali1234> the only time i ever use ` is when writing shell scripts
[23:41] <AlanBell> also orca does a load of mouse stuff
[23:41] <ali1234> i thought orca wasa screen reader?
[23:41] <AlanBell> sorry
[23:41] <AlanBell> onboard
[23:41] <AlanBell> onboard now has hover mouse stuff built in, which is granted a bit of an odd place for it, but there it is
[23:41] <gord> if oyu are following an internet guide, ` can be quite useful
[23:42] <ali1234> onboard solves the problem "i have a full desktop PC running a traditional desktop OS and for some reason I have unplugged the keyboard but i still want to use the computer fully"
[23:42] <AlanBell> yup
[23:42] <ali1234> which is a problem that almost nobody ever has
[23:43] <AlanBell> I can see the point of this other type of keyboard
[23:43] <bigcalm> o2 Joggler. Plug in a USB kb to get things running, on screen keyboard after that
[23:44] <AlanBell> on my phone I am annoyed that the keyboards are not as good as onboard, I would *love* onboard for android
[23:44] <ali1234> onboard wouldn't even fit on the screen
[23:44] <ali1234> it would have scrollbars
[23:44] <AlanBell> it would fit, the buttons would be small
[23:45] <ali1234> then it would be unusable
[23:45] <AlanBell> maliit doesn't seem to rescale at all
[23:46] <AlanBell> https://market.android.com/details?id=org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard&hl=en that is what I use
[23:48] <AlanBell> I don't like primitive keyboards, but I do accept that most people would do
[23:48] <ali1234> that might work on a tablet
[23:48] <ali1234> no way you could press those button in portrait mode on a galaxy s
[23:48] <ali1234> not without a capacitive stylus anyway
[23:49] <AlanBell> yes I can
[23:49] <AlanBell> using it now on a galaxy S2
[23:50] <AlanBell> irssi in byobu and a full 5 row keyboard
[23:50] <popey> and AlanBell has surprisingly fat thumbs
[23:50] <AlanBell> and back to the laptop
[23:50] <popey> there's so many android OSKs
[23:50] <popey> shame we cant easliy use/port them
[23:50] <AlanBell> I do normally use the 4 row layout in portrait mode but that was with the full 5 row one
[23:54] <AlanBell> I guess they are java things compiled the dalvik way
[23:54] <AlanBell> could they run under openjdk?
[23:54] <popey> eww
[23:54] <ali1234> hell no
[23:55] <popey> not sure I'd want jdk on a tablet under arm
[23:55] <ali1234> they should work in this though: http://openmobile.co/products.php
[23:56] <popey> interesting product
[23:56] <AlanBell> so what is that? a dalvik runtime?
[23:57] <AlanBell> why not have openjdk on arm? or at least the JRE part of it?
[23:57] <popey> is it dead?
[23:57] <popey> no blog updates for ages
[23:58] <ali1234> dead? it's a commercial product
[23:58] <AlanBell> which is no insulation against deadness
[23:59] <ali1234> it's not dead.
[23:59] <ali1234> try the news page instead of the blog