[03:01] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13xOvDa19U [11:45] morning [11:45] hello DotD, I think I'll be buying you today [11:51] morning [11:52] Good morning [11:53] That was just released, wasn't it? [11:53] The DotD [11:53] snap-l: yea, I was waiting for it to come out [11:53] so even better, clear off the wishlist at 50% off [11:55] Yeah, I believe O'Reilly has figured out this impulse buy thing. :) [11:56] buy now pay later [12:22] this is depressing: link from canonical voices http://cityblogger.com/archives/2012/02/15/which-is-less-expensive-amazon-or-self-hosted [12:27] morning [12:30] Machine Learning? rick_h is going to bring Skynet down upon us... :-( [12:30] that's the plan! [12:31] that's what bookie is, my attempt to build skynet [12:34] Ahnold will find Sarah Connor via her web surfing habits. [13:41] rick_h: IS the gigaom link depressing? [13:42] the cityblogger thing is' like 80% ads on the page. THe content is squished to the left 5 words wide [13:43] and this is from a canonical employee sharing on the planet like that [13:43] just depressing it's so giant ad heavy [13:43] gotta pay the bills yo [13:45] rick_h: Ah, I have adblocker installed, so I didn't see it. :) [13:45] And yes, that was pretty light on content (on both counts) [13:45] ah, I try to run without, just flash block so that I don't go total freetard on the net [13:46] No, not noscript, adblock. :) [13:46] Makes visiting places like detnews.com livable [13:48] also essential on my phone [13:48] http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ppre5/the_new_d_online_forum_software_written_in_d/ <- Apparently NNTP Is making a comeback [13:48] And I for one would love to see NNTP everywhere. [13:49] snap-l: so how goes the new job? [13:49] nullspace: I'm not ready to throttle rick_h yet. :) [13:49] only because they've not made him work on my code :P [13:49] nice [13:49] I'm enjoying it so far, but I'm now digging into some of the data loading scripts [13:49] and excel can die in a dire [13:50] fire, even [13:50] ugh [13:50] what are you using to parse it? [13:50] Well, it's already being parsed [13:51] but I'd like to come up with a better way to detect it, and parse it [13:51] Python handles two out of the three formats that I've seen pretty cleanly. [13:51] but there's no "one-true-XLS" parser out there. [13:51] we are about to break into that ourselves but we are going with an apache foundation project [13:52] nullspace: Which project? [13:52] I think POI [13:53] Oh, purdy [13:53] we are already using it to write to excel and it's awesome, well as awesome as one can get with writing to excel [13:53] Java API for MIcrosoft documents [13:53] it's always a messy job [13:53] I think I just wretched a bit in my mouth [13:54] snap-l: i've had good luck with xlrd [13:54] brousch: Yeah, and the openpyxlst (sp?) looks very nice [13:54] snap-l: if you saw our how fast our pages run you'd not be wreching [13:55] there's apparently a straight XML (non-zipped) format that Excel upchucks which unfortunately doesn't have a module that can handle it [13:55] nullspace: Java API for MS Documents is wretch-worthy. :) [13:55] switch everyone to openoffice ;) [13:55] It's like coating a plate of shit with maggots. :) [13:56] brousch: Were that I were king, this would be a non-issue [13:56] ODF, or to the gallows with you. [13:56] snap-l: if maggots and shot tasted like steak then you might be right [13:56] nullspace: IF you're hungry enough, anything can taste good. :) [13:58] the entire report generating file is only 230 lines [13:59] snap-l: so what is that you against java again? [13:59] nullspace: I'm not a fan, no [13:59] wait, did someone ask for a bitch list against java? [13:59] why exactly, I'm not trying to convert [14:00] this is going to take a while...how many pages max do I get? [14:00] rick_h: please use a pastebin [14:00] brousch: think of the web servers please, accepting that many MB over POST is going to hurt! [14:00] rick_h: you know your phone is running java right? [14:01] nullspace: yep! and I've not written a single program for my phone that wasn't python + web :) [14:01] nullspace: you know your linux install runs C right? Surely you should be writing all things in C! [14:01] nullspace: The biggest current reason is that Oracle controls the fate of Java. [14:01] ooh, I like these types of arguments, what's next? [14:01] rick_h: not what I'm saying [14:02] so it's impossible to distribute Sun's Java without going through Oracle [14:02] no, biggest current reason is that it's a bear to code in and a pita to work with [14:02] And the only other recourse is to distribute Open JDK [14:02] it's like ergonomics, sure people get by with crap chairs, but man, a nice chair sure makes the work day better [14:02] snap-l: I was attrached by the overwhelming number of apache projects and most are in java [14:02] nullspace: That's great for you. :) [14:03] Every time I've waded inthe Java pool, I feel disgusted [14:03] and I hear that most MS projects are written in C#, and most github projects are in ruby [14:03] ooh, another fun one. You noticed that communities seem to stick around the same ideas. [14:05] rick_h: makes sense that communities would do that [14:07] estimated monstly cost for the grpug site on heroku is still $0 [14:07] nice [14:08] brousch: Very cool [14:08] brousch: woot [14:08] Let me put that up on reddit. :) [14:08] heh [14:08] * brousch starts looking into caching [14:08] snap-l: yes the thought that oracle could do a number of things that would poision Java but I see all those as means to loose money and have people quickly abandon the platform [14:09] nullspace: s/could/are doing/ [14:09] Sorry, is doing. [14:09] I have yet to see that [14:09] maybe I missed an article [14:10] Patent lawsuit against Google for Dalvek [14:10] Revoking the OSS distribution license. [14:10] hmm looks like a money grab, I think oracle will loose on that one [14:11] nullspace: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/12/java-to-be-removed-from-ubuntu-uninstalled-from-user-machines/ [14:12] I think this is just the tip of the iceberg [14:13] Oracle does not know how to be a nice OSS citizen [14:13] snap-l: I think to understand Ellison you have to be just as crazy as him [14:13] s/crazy/greedy/ [14:14] brousch: no he is crazy [14:14] Right, so why would I want to buy into an ecosystem that requires me to be a man that I despise? [14:14] When the language isn't that hot to begin with, and the only compelling part is the JVM? [14:14] you don't have to understand him to use his stuff, you just have to pay him [14:15] I don't need to hit my hand with a hammer every morning to remember that it hurts. [14:15] pay fo what you use, you damn freetard! [14:15] The only saving grace is that Sun in it's dying throes OSSesd a lot of stuff [14:16] So now we have Libreoffice, a dozen+ MySQL forks, and VirtualBox OSE [14:17] and OpenJDK [14:18] OpenJDK seems to be working just fine for us [14:18] i just bought a usb tv device with no linux support. i fail. [14:19] you're supposed to ask devin for the right one first [14:19] since he makes/made them and all that [14:19] jrwren: as punishment you must feed, clothe, bathe, and house RMS for 1 week [14:19] where did I put mine hmmm [14:19] rick_h: i read that gigom article yesterday. I found it lacking on lots of points. [14:19] jrwren: Gee, a tech news site with lacking points? [14:20] jrwren: TO THE BLOGS, BATMAN! [14:20] jrwren: yea, I liked when aws put out their reply and cut the costss more [14:20] http://aws.typepad.com/aws/2012/02/be-careful-when-comparing-aws-costs.html [14:21] Anyone else find it a titch ironic that AWS is using typepad? [14:21] no, they build servers, not blogging platforms :) [14:21] and maybe typepad is a customer? [14:21] maybe. [14:21] rofl. [14:22] probably [14:22] rick_h: But they should be scaling the shit out of a Wordpress instance. :) [14:22] ok... color me impressed... those D forums pages to load fast. [14:22] probably not as much becuase of D as it is developers attn to detail [14:22] but I like it. [14:23] "AND LOOK, WE'RE NOT EVEN USING FASTCGI" [14:23] I wish all forum software used NNTP [14:23] rofl. [14:23] they aren't using fastcgi? they should be. [14:24] jrwren: That's the power of Amazon AWS [14:24] how so? [14:24] maybe they are using mod_d [14:24] (I'm being facetious) [14:24] You moved on to the D forums before I finished my "Amazon scaling the shit out of a wordpress install" [14:25] lol. [14:25] i see. [14:25] yeah... shit AWS can't do... scale the shit out of a wordpress install :) [14:27] snap-l: I consider you lucky that you don't have to support both xls and xlsx, we have a bunch of Asian distributors that still use office XP [14:27] nullspace: oh he does :) [14:27] ouch [14:27] nullspace: That's the point. I have to support three different formats. [14:28] xls blobs, xls XML, and xlsx. [14:28] xls is the real bitch [14:28] you can't require them to send you something reasonable? [14:28] brousch: This is a customer site. :) [14:28] This is "reasonable" [14:29] http://aws.typepad.com/aws/2012/02/be-careful-when-comparing-aws-costs.html I like the "No Administrative Costs" point the best :) [14:29] brousch: all they see is values, they have no idea what is takes to move it from one place to another [14:30] only accept CSV or something [14:30] brousch: See above. [14:30] yea, they love to send around 20 sheet workbooks [14:30] seems like someone could make a few bucks (and only a few bucks) a month doing a conversion service. e.g. you send the web service an xls and it sends you back... openoffice format, or xlsx or csv [14:31] jrwren: I'd be happy if it sent back a mysql dump [14:31] table per sheet ? [14:31] and when I'm king, there will be no data exports, only database connections. [14:31] adam williams in the grpug has an extensive system for converting those things [14:31] should it expand the formula or just send you formula as values? [14:32] and when I'm king, there will be no database connections, only well documented rest services [14:32] jrwren: Long live the king [14:32] he's made it so he can create a template for each customer format and then handle it the same way [14:32] brousch: That's awesome, save for this is just one customer. :) [14:33] ah [14:33] he processes data from hundreds of vendors so he created a generalized solution [14:33] And that's wise. [14:35] I found one python magic script that looked promising [14:35] save for everything came back as "data" [14:36] Ah, here's another one [14:37] * snap-l gleefully wants to have "import magic" at the top of this file. :) [14:54] BREAKING: Random Ubuntu developer asks followers for restaurant suggestions. By unanimity, decides to eat on "Unity sucks, I hope you die!" -- FOSSNews [15:07] heh [15:12] a distant second was "Why did you kill Kubuntu!?" [15:17] >: - | [15:18] /join kubuntu-us-mi [15:18] oops [15:22] brousch: why did you leave the channel? [15:22] because it was a bad joke :P [15:23] no need to fork yet [15:23] There's 2 of us in there. Come join the fun :-) [15:32] why does Firefox keep throwing twitter.com cert exception errors at me, regardless of the fact I don't have any twitter-related windows open? [15:32] I wiped my history, cookies, and cache... [15:33] your company is MitMing you [15:33] MitMing? [15:34] oh [15:34] man in the middle [15:34] well yeah, but why would FF even be trying to get to twitter? [15:36] to autotweet every page you visit to the IT department [15:37] LOL [15:37] unlikely [15:37] Twitter was suddenly un-verboten last week when they wanted us to go vote on the Chrysler ads for best Super Bowl commercial... [15:38] and now it's verboten again, so the MitM attack on twitter, FB, etc is back in place [15:38] but that should not (and never previously did) affect me when I'm just on Gmail and IRCCloud [15:43] Wolfger: Seriously? That's pathetic. [15:45] snap-l: what, the "go vote for us please"? Yeah... [15:49] we were even encouraged to vote multiple times [15:49] stuff those ballot boxes, guys [15:50] Yeah, because nobody will notice all of these votes coming from chrysler.com [15:52] If there is a soundtrack that makes me want to program, it's the Tron soundtrack (from 1982) [15:59] Wolfger: its probably every page you visit pinging back to twitter to prep for those "tweet this" tags on the page. [16:00] facebook does the samething. [16:00] its one of many reasons i run noscript [16:05] Yeah, those dippy little bugs / tags are a PITA [16:05] funny to see the designers that plan for it, and the ones that don't. [16:07] Woot [16:07] Sysadmin Opening @ Canonical [16:08] Yeah, saw that [16:10] CANONICAL, I WILL HAVE YOU [16:11] why do you want to work for canonical? [16:18] all the cool kids are doing it [16:18] Canonical is changing the face of teh linuks [16:19] I am a fan of working diligently in support of that [16:19] I am especially a fan of getting paid for that [16:23] cool answer. [16:37] If you ever use it, I'll have to kill you ;) [16:38] LIstening to A Clockwork Orange's soundtrack is probably not the wisest move while wading through this code. [16:46] jrwren: Yeah, I run noscript as well. :-p [16:48] tjagoda: if you are a fan of "working diligently in support of changing the face of Linux", then why did you bail out of Ubuntu when they made some changes? ;-) [16:52] Wolfger: Shhhhh [16:52] Never let a good story get in the way of the facts. :) [16:53] I didn't [16:53] I think you meant to say the opposite [16:53] :-) [16:53] bah [16:54] I stand by what I meant to say [17:06] I still use ubuntu [17:06] I just use a different desktop environment [17:10] i need a LGPL license with an iOS static linking exception :) [17:11] i still use ubuntu too [17:11] and I use a different deaktop environment. windows and osx [17:12] umm heh [17:13] jrwren: please to be telling me the results of `cat /proc/cpuinfo` on said Windows and OSX desktop environments. [17:13] snap-l: how dare you make him stoop to the cmd line. The cmd line is a bug! [17:14] rick_h: Ah, my bad [17:14] OPen nautilus, move to /proc/cpuinfo and double-click [17:16] http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/topics/security/javacpufeb2012-366318.html [17:17] wheee [17:21] Reason #454623 why Oracle needs to DIAF: https://support.oracle.com/CSP/main/article?cmd=show&type=NOT&id=1404863.1 [17:21] Go on, click on that link [17:22] Sign Up for a free Oracle Web account [17:23] Yes, to find out what's in the support notes [17:23] ie: what changed. [17:32] Sometimes I think the toy collectible market goes way too far: http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/collectibles/ec60/ [17:32] woot, loving ec2 test/landing. landing 4 branches at once and my machine doesn't have to run4 sets of tests at once yay [17:33] Does it spin up four instances? [17:33] yea [17:33] 4 large ec2 instances [17:34] snap-l: whats wrong with a little molding? [17:34] tjagoda: Nothing, but it's just a little... what's the word?... creepy [17:35] If I get hired by Geek.net or Canonical, I will buy this for my home office: http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/collectibles/e9b8/ [17:49] rick_h: oh EFF YOU! not having /proc is one thing, not having cmdline is completely different! [17:49] :) [17:49] rick_h: that said, you are one of the few people in the world that i've met that probably has better cmdline fu than me :) [17:50] jrwren: not sure on that. I'm just very happy with my 10% [17:50] 10% ? [17:50] i just love cmdline and feel like i'm pretty good at it. [17:50] every tool, find the 10% you use all the time and kill it [17:50] does that go for your wood working tools too? [17:50] I know maybe 10% of other masters, but happy with my 10% to make myself productive [17:51] jrwren: definitely, you get into comfy patterns with how you use things [17:51] not sure on the 10% thing [17:51] rick_h knows 10 commands, but he types them faster than anyone I know. ;) [17:51] I was more thinking of things like vim, shell, etc [17:51] i feel like i actually know more than 10% of bash and coreutils and there are things that I know I don't know... its things that i don't know that i don't know that i'm not sure abou t;P [17:51] right, well I guess I'm saying less "know of" and more "use regularaly" [17:51] jrwren: Yeah, that's the rub [17:51] i'm thinking purely shell and coreutils [17:52] i'm not counting vim... vim is too huge :) [17:52] except with spell correct in there [17:52] vim is as large as shell/cmd line fu I'd think [17:52] larger. [17:52] anyway, I think you probably know more cmd line stuff than me [17:52] amount of vim knowledge is far larger than shell+coreutils [17:53] but anyway, I was just making a joke on the cmd line thing [17:53] doubtful. you actually made the zsh leap. I'm back on bash and I don't even leverage completion providers much [17:53] a joke at my expense :( [17:53] brousch and anybody who cares: figured out my twitter.com MitM issues... Firefox was set to start session with all the tabs from previous session. Even though nothing using twitter was open, and even though I cleaned history, cache, etc, FF was somehow keeping twitter as something that needed to be loaded. [17:53] i earned it by using windows and mac [17:53] espeicially because I was curious how snap-l would move to respond given that any response would be WM specific [17:53] and thus make your point a bit more [17:53] changed FF to start with blank page, problem magically gone [17:54] if you ditch the cmd line you really can almost say ubuntu/osx/win7 is a DE [17:54] all a matter of what apps you use install and how you get to them [17:54] Um.... [17:55] There's fundamental differences to how linux / osx / win7 attack things under the DE layer [17:55] That was mostly my joke. :) [17:55] right, but if you take out cmd line, you're stuck at the DE layer [17:59] And if you take out the DE layer, you have a brick [18:00] :) [18:00] no, you have a cloud app [18:01] you mean chromeos? [18:01] yea, I was wondering when that would come up [18:09] ttp://post.oreilly.com/f2f/9z1z6qjmhbq3l1hsugmj1k2b5a0f49965fufdoc69g0 [18:09] Bah: http://post.oreilly.com/f2f/9z1z6qjmhbq3l1hsugmj1k2b5a0f49965fufdoc69g0 [18:10] Let's try that again: http://shop.oreilly.com/category/deals/oldies-but-goodies.do [18:16] wtf is in ssh the definitive guide [18:17] I've got that one [18:17] I can bring it to CHC [18:17] good stuff on how ssh works, tricks and tips, building complex network setups over ssh [18:24] weird [18:26] I loved the Programming Perl book [18:26] got a python version? [18:27] imma have to become python guru pretty quick... i verbally accepted job offer doing python. [18:27] not sure why I have not got paper yet. [18:27] Learning Python or Programming Python [18:27] jrwren: learning python isn't what you want [18:27] those books USED TO SUCK [18:27] Both have had major rewrites [18:27] yea...that's true [18:28] dive into python will get me the sweet sweet details? [18:28] And yes, learning python was a deathmarch before the rewrite [18:28] Dive Into Python is old [18:28] no 2.7 update for dive into? [18:28] man, I've read a lot of python books, but can't think of one that I'd heartily recomment [18:28] and the python 3 rewrite is pretty offputting [18:28] recommend [18:28] oh wow, 2004 [18:28] rick_h: that is what I'd guess. [18:28] jrwren: yea no he went py3 [18:28] i'll just read the docs :) [18:29] jrwren: yea, I mean python really is more passed via looking at docs and existing code [18:29] jrwren: If you want to borrow a copy of Learning Python, LMK [18:29] I learned a lot figuring out how other tools worked like pylons/pyramid, nose, etc. [18:29] I'd suggest getting the new cookbook when it comes out next week (hopefully it's on time) [18:30] That's really the best way to learn [18:30] that should be a gold mine, but again might be more py3, but still ideas apply [18:30] what about python the hard way? that seems to fit jrwren [18:30] yeah, i might be on 2.4 for all I know :) [18:30] ugh, I hope not [18:30] brousch: That seems pretty basic [18:31] actually wow, checking my kindle collection very little python. I guess I did learn more via paper books [18:32] jrwren: gold: http://www.amazon.com/Python-Essential-Reference-David-Beazley/dp/0672329786/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329330752&sr=1-6 [18:33] and http://www.amazon.com/Python-Standard-Library-Example-Developers/dp/0321767349/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329330752&sr=1-11 [18:33] I still use Linux in a Nuthsell on a regular basis [18:33] "WTF Was that command?" [18:34] yea, those two + the coookbook would be my suggestions if one were to ask [18:34] anything beazley should be good [18:34] and reading a ton of code. no wonder python is often self taught, not a great book really [18:34] i just skimmed learn python the hard way... its super basic. [18:34] but the essential ref is something I still grab sometimes [18:34] i'd not consider someone knowing python having read it :p [18:35] i haven't actually read it yet [18:35] not looked at that, no metaclasses fun? :) [18:36] nope. [18:36] not even list comprehension! [18:36] ?!?!?! [18:36] I didn't like Python The Essential Reference [18:36] that can't be, you can't write a book on python without generators, iterators, comprehensions [18:36] inorite! [18:36] snap-l: no? [18:36] what is python without list comprehensions?! [18:37] rick_h: Yeah, it seemed a little too... sterile, perhaps? [18:37] it's very much a reference, but killer especially when you hit stuff like logging/etc [18:37] http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ I skimmed eveyr page... no generators, iterators or comprehensions [18:37] That and I got rid of it when I went on my SOAP rampage. [18:37] snap-l: ah, yea. I'd not use it for straight learning, but it's great to walk throughand for when you need that question answered [18:37] SPOA, rather [18:37] Fuck, why can't I type that [18:37] SOPA [18:38] jrwren: yea, meh on that ToC [18:38] psh, python koans > than that "chapter" on "doing things to lists" [18:39] A Byte of Python looks a bit better, more terse, but still intro... I want the advanced :p [18:40] jrwren: yea, not going to find it really [18:40] rick_h: didn't you read an advanced python book last year? [18:41] brousch: it was crazy [18:41] I'm trying to find it [18:41] It wasn't Expert Python, was it? [18:41] no, that one is crack as well [18:41] how crazy/ [18:42] I thought it was an apress book, I remember reading it on the kindle [18:42] i have lost track. is crack good or bad? [18:42] * rick_h checks my book folder [18:42] Expert Python started off strong, and then became "here's revision control" [18:42] Python Algorithms? FOundations of Python Networking? [18:43] http://www.amazon.com/Expert-Python-Programming-practices-distributing/dp/184719494X Martelli's review is great. [18:43] snap-l: what was that one that jumped all over the place [18:43] I think you read it first and then I read it on a plane [18:44] python essential references looks good [18:44] Yeah, I got a review copy of it [18:44] and it jumped like crazy [18:44] snap-l: yea [18:44] WEnt from installing Python to the hairier parts of python OO [18:45] and then finished with "revision control is good" [18:45] oh, think ir was Pro Python [18:45] Ah, yeah, that's it [18:45] hmm, I can't find it locally. Wonder where I got it from then [18:46] maybe it was so bad you burned it [18:46] http://www.amazon.com/review/R2C34BGYK149PD/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=184719494X&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode= [18:46] rick_h: I think you donated it at CHC [18:46] ah, I did get it kindle format [18:47] ack! http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920000280.do [18:47] says it has been cancelled [18:48] brousch: I can't say I'm surprised [18:48] but I am disappointed [18:48]