[01:09] <pleia2> Unit193: re: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/lubuntu-users/2012-February/000429.html the "No behind-the-scenes news in the public like details on how development is taking place." is an interesting comment
[01:10] <pleia2> I've had mixed feelings about whether we should be posting links to our meeting minutes and stuff
[01:10] <pleia2> but I think their point is that our site should be a polished product type thing for people, not full of confusing devel stuff
[01:11] <pleia2> so I'll do a call for help with marketing stuff on my blog and on our -devel mailing list, finished marketing products can go as a blog post on xubuntu.org :)
[01:12] <Unit193> Well, that's just what one person thinks, but a summery of what the outcome is could be interesting.  I was just making a simple note of someone elses comment on the site.
[01:13]  * pleia2 nods
[01:13] <pleia2> feedback is good :)
[01:13] <Unit193> Oh, I'm on devel.
[01:44] <nanotube> well, devel stuff can be there, just be a little more buried. (like, under the 'developers' link somewhere)
[01:45] <nanotube> i think he just means there's no stuff like "we've just decided to change keyboard shortcuts in the next release" right on the front page.
[08:31] <ochosi> micahg: hey, i was recently approached by the gmb dev because there are a few annoying bugs in the version in oneiric (already fixed in git) and he wanted to ask whether it would be possible to backport the fixes – people keep asking about them in the forum etc.
[08:42] <micahg> ochosi: if they're cherry picked, sure
[08:42] <micahg> we would also need test cases
[10:17] <knome> madnick, !!!!!!
[10:34] <madnick> knome: i did upload it
[10:34] <madnick> didnt you see my message?
[10:36] <knome> madnick, actually no :)
[10:36] <knome> in that case...
[10:36] <knome> mr_pouit, !!!!!!
[10:36] <madnick> :)
[10:37] <madnick> brb, gonna make food
[10:37] <knome> bon appetit
[11:33] <mr_pouit> is it lp:~dr-madnick/+junk/ldm-zoo branch?
[11:34] <mr_pouit> (no license, no build system, and many hardcoded things in there. And I'm supposed to test and upload it today...)
[11:34] <knome> mr_pouit, we can fix bugs after FF, right?
[11:35] <knome> madnick, can you elaborate with mr_pouit and create a build system and work with him on the issue generally?
[15:06] <mr_pouit> madnick: knome: http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/zoo-greeter-0.0.1.tar.gz <<< here's your branch with a quick'n'dirty autotoolization done (you need to fill in author(s), copyright holder(s), the correct license, add a license header for each vala file, etc...)
[15:06] <knome> mr_pouit, thanks A LOT :)
[15:07] <mr_pouit> still many things to fix though :(
[15:07] <knome> yeah.
[15:07] <knome> let's try to get it uploaded for now and then start fixing things.
[15:07] <mr_pouit> it won't even build here:
[15:07] <knome> could that even go in xubuntu-default-settings for now?
[15:07] <mr_pouit> virtualkeyboard.vala:42.26-42.27: error: Argument 1: Cannot convert from `int' to `Gdk.NativeWindow' keyboard_socket.add_id(id);
[15:07] <mr_pouit> or xubuntu-artwork, yeah
[15:07] <knome> i know that's not the cleanest approach, but i know that's been done before
[15:07] <knome> mm-hmm
[15:08] <mr_pouit> someone who knows vala need to look at it too
[15:08] <knome> so, let me just double-check: even if it's uploaded we don't need to use it, if it doesn't seem to work?
[15:08] <mr_pouit> well, it'd be better if it could be in its own package (xubuntu-artwork/xubuntu-default-settings only ship data files, not programs)
[15:09] <mr_pouit> I think it's best to fix it before the upload (it should be okay for an exception)
[15:09] <knome> yes, of course
[15:09] <knome> okay
[15:10] <mr_pouit> anyway, bbl
[15:10] <knome> okay, see you, and thanks
[15:10] <madnick> guys, i cannot begin to tell you how sorry i am, but i have another business meeting over dinner, then i need to go on the bus back to my town
[15:10] <knome> well, if we're going to have an exception anyway, it's not a matter of hours
[15:11] <madnick> basically, not even all the source is used to build it, and there was a mod in libwebkit's vala "header"
[15:11] <madnick> i am truly sorry about this
[15:11] <knome> np. just let's do everything we can to fix it
[15:11] <madnick> i have the a build file, well not a real one, but a script, in virtualbox
[15:12] <madnick> which i can use the compile line to automate it etc
[15:12] <knome> if i knew about build files and such, i'd use my own time to try to fix it
[15:12] <knome> but really, just don't panic. go to your meeting, take your time and get back to it when you can
[15:13] <knome> i'd like to see it in a near-finished state in a week from now, or we might have to think about using the old lightdm theme with just wallpaper updated
[15:14] <madnick> Yes, to be honest, I am not sure this greeter is worthy, I have not had nearly enough time to be happy about the result
[15:14] <knome> (week because then we still have time before the UI freeze without exceptions if we don't decide to use the new greeter
[15:14] <knome> right, i see
[15:14] <madnick> But Ill code and build as much as I can
[15:15] <madnick> and if you dont wanna use it
[15:15] <madnick> Then it is fine either way
[15:15] <knome> okay, we'll be more wise next week
[15:15] <knome> and we can use it in P+1 anyway
[15:15] <knome> i don't want to have big problems on boot with an LTS...
[15:15] <madnick> Indeed, nobody wants that
[15:16]  * knome mentally prepares or using the old lightdm theme
[15:16] <Unit193> But at the same time, you want it to look nice as that means a lot for first impression.
[15:17] <knome> of course.
[15:17] <madnick> If I'd known sooner how this business thing would turn out, I would've taken on a lot less, perhaps just modified the current greeter to look better
[15:17] <knome> but looks still can't jeopardize stability :)
[15:17] <Unit193> I'd guess you can't quite upload it as an option later for Pangolin?
[15:17] <knome> SRU's are possible
[15:17] <knome> but that's the smallest concern now
[15:18] <Unit193> Well yeah.
[15:18] <ochosi> will there be enough time to improve the looks of the current greeter?
[15:18] <madnick> I got to go now
[15:18] <ochosi> i mean it really looks like logging into windows-nt
[15:18] <knome> imo that's not TOO bad...
[15:18] <ochosi> see ya later madnick ;)
[15:18] <knome> it's a bit plain and somewhat ugly, but it works
[15:19] <ochosi> sure, but it could be easy to improve at least a bit
[15:19] <madnick> I will be coding as much as I can, Ill get back to you when I get home
[15:19] <madnick> -->
[15:19] <knome> okay.
[15:19] <knome> thanks
[15:19] <knome> ochosi, but yeah, just trying to improve the current look would work as well.
[15:19] <knome> ochosi, just feels a bit lukewarm, doesn't it?
[15:19] <ochosi> i mean just to be sure not to have the same ugly greeter again
[15:19] <ochosi> sure
[15:20] <ochosi> it's nothing much
[15:20] <knome> i don't know we can do about it
[15:20] <ochosi> but probably better than nothing
[15:20] <knome> maybe. that'd mean we should drop working on the new greeter NOW
[15:21] <ochosi> not sure, i dunno how hard it would be to slightly tweak the current greeter
[15:21] <ochosi> but really, i'd wait for whenever madnick is back and have a more clearheaded discussion then
[15:49] <charlie-tca> all images are working for Xubuntu Precise
[15:50] <charlie-tca> all images except desktop i386 are oversize
[15:50] <knome> hey charlie-tca :)
[15:50] <charlie-tca> Good morning
[15:50] <Unit193> Good to see you again, started my sync maybe 20 ago.
[15:50] <knome> charlie-tca, you might have read about our plan to include "application sets" into xubuntu
[15:50] <charlie-tca> any help testing Ubuntu/Kubuntu 10.04.4 would be appreciated today. Tests are at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/207/builds
[15:51] <charlie-tca> knome: I don't what application sets are, even
[15:51] <knome> charlie-tca, okay, so basically, we're offering three choices:
[15:51] <knome> charlie-tca, xubuntu / xfce only / accessibility
[15:51] <charlie-tca> Unit193: if you can test our images today, I will work on 10.04.4 for Kubuntu
[15:51] <charlie-tca> as sessions?
[15:51] <Unit193> charlie-tca: Busy day, but I hope to.
[15:52] <knome> charlie-tca, if you choose accessibility, you will get all the accessibility applications installed, as well as some tweaks, like bigger terminal font
[15:52] <knome> charlie-tca, no, as intallation alternatives
[15:52] <knome> charlie-tca, with the ubiquity plugin the edubuntu team put together
[15:52] <charlie-tca> I don't know anything about that, either
[15:53] <knome> charlie-tca, with "xfce only" you naturally get only xfce installed on top of ubuntu
[15:53] <knome> charlie-tca, well anyway, we might need your help :)
[15:53] <charlie-tca> will there be a new menu when installing, then? It gives these choices?
[15:53] <knome> yes
[15:53] <knome> a simple dialog with these three alternatives
[15:53] <charlie-tca> and will that be on all images, or desktop only?
[15:54] <knome> that will be on desktop only, afaik
[15:54] <charlie-tca> I suppose the first thing would be to figure out how to get orca to work in precise Xubuntu, then
[15:55] <knome> does that mean that some people might need to use alternative to install xubuntu, because the desktop image is inaccessible in the first place?
[15:56] <charlie-tca> no, it means if orca doesn't work, you don't have accessiblity working at all
[15:56] <charlie-tca> Orca is a screen reader, which is required for blind users
[15:56] <knome> right, but that would be the case even without the application sets?
[15:57] <charlie-tca> no, because we don't have it working yet
[15:57] <knome> okay. for precise, i don't know if we can *improve* the accessibility much anyway, but we'd like to group the accessibility features to one set, if possible
[15:57] <charlie-tca> blind users normally have to use Ubuntu with unity 2d or gnome to get orca to work
[15:57] <knome> there is some accessibility tools that are installed by default, isn't there?
[15:58] <charlie-tca> yes, mouse tweaks, giving the ability to use keys in place of mouse, and set up mouse to work easier with sticky keys and different speeds. Also, Onboard keyboard
[15:58] <knome> yeah, those would be grouped to the accessibility installation group
[15:59] <knome> along with some theming tweaks, like bigger terminal font, as i said :)
[15:59] <charlie-tca> Better make that a bigger default font. Your current fonts are way too small for visually impaired users to see
[16:00] <knome> that's some good feedback too, and yes, will drive for that
[16:00] <charlie-tca> Also, probably want to look at both high-contrast and high-contrast inverse themes
[16:00] <knome> yes those too
[16:00] <ochosi> btw, as far as i know xfce-upstream supports orca in the latest version
[16:00] <knome> there's no high-contrast gtk3 theme though :(
[16:00] <ochosi> we won't have that in precise most likely
[16:01] <knome> yeah, but we are ready to have that in Q
[16:01] <charlie-tca> upstream plans on 4.10 supporting orca. But without that, there is no point in having an accessibility install
[16:02] <knome> i have to disagree. bigger fonts and such are an accessibility improvement
[16:02] <knome> of course, that's not complete accessibility and it won't help all the users that need accessibility, but it's a step forward
[16:03] <knome> as i said, i don't think we generally can improve accessibility much in precise, but we can start preparing stuff for when we can
[16:04] <knome> the other motivation to have these application sets is to have pure xfce on top of ubuntu
[16:05] <Unit193> That'll be fun to support....
[16:05] <knome> anyway, if you knew the package names for those accessibility apps you mentioned (mouse tweaks, onboard) from the heart, those would help a lot
[16:06] <knome> Unit193, what is?
[16:06] <knome> s/is/will/
[16:07] <Unit193> Different packagesets.
[16:07] <knome> how?
[16:07] <knome> we're already installing everything what will be in those sets
[16:07] <Unit193> I'm going with Xfce on top Ubuntu is going to be different.
[16:08] <knome> of course it's going to be different
[16:09] <knome> but it's going to be exactly like ubuntu minimal + xfce
[16:10] <knome> we should add a note in the description to only install "xfce only" if one exactly knew what they were doing
[16:10] <knome> and it's not something you can't fix later
[16:10] <knome> just install xubuntu-desktop
[16:12] <knome> altogether, i just don't understand why you haven't raised this up earlier for discussion, if you think it's too hard to support
[16:12] <Unit193> [11:05:42] < Unit193> That'll be fun to support....
[16:12] <Unit193> Point out where I said "too hard", please.
[16:13] <knome> very well, maybe i misjudged the tone
[16:13] <knome> but i'd be really happy if things like this were brought up by others before
[16:13] <ochosi> +1
[16:13] <knome> even if we just decided it's okay to proceed as we thought
[16:14] <Unit193> Na, just was making a side note, not even bringing it up to talk about.
[16:14] <knome> well you did
[16:14] <Unit193> I blame ochosi for that part.
[16:15] <knome> and i think that was valuable, though it would have been more valuable in a meeting a month or two before
[16:15] <ochosi> Unit193: :p
[16:15]  * knome doesn't blame people
[16:16] <Unit193> I don't think it's valuable, it doesn't (and wouldn't) change things, just something that I'll have to peek into.
[16:19] <charlie-tca> hm, lag is 684 seconds. May not be having a good day on IRC...
[16:36] <charlie-tca> last thing I got here was 
[16:36] <charlie-tca> 09:03:52       knome | of course, that's not complete accessibility and it won't help all the users that need accessibility, but it's a step 
[16:36] <charlie-tca>                      | forward                                                                                                               
[16:37] <charlie-tca> now going to switch to xchat, it is easier to restart the server in it than weechat
[16:38] <knome> mmh
[16:39] <Unit193> http://pastebin.com/sXj7yyPx
[16:39] <knome> well he's gone :P
[16:40] <Unit193> I know.
[16:40] <knome> i don't always know, because i sometimes have joins/parts on ignore
[16:41] <Unit193> I never do.
[16:42] <knome> easier like that in eg. #ubuntu-meeting
[16:43] <Unit193> I don't idle there, and I'm a bit obsessive about my logs.
[16:44] <Unit193> http://bugs.irssi.org/index.php?do=details&task_id=809 I'd use it if that was fixed.
[16:45] <knome> ha.
[16:50] <Unit193> http://pastebin.com/sXj7yyPx and some from when you switched to xchat
[16:51] <charlie-tca> Thanks
[16:54] <charlie-tca> knome: I don't know any of the app names by memory. I will have to research them to find them
[16:55] <charlie-tca> Sometimes, email to the mailing lists work better than irc discussions to get word out
[17:00] <knome> charlie-tca, sure.
[17:01] <knome> we just happened to cover that issue minutes before with ochosi 
[17:04] <charlie-tca> Sorry, not a good day on freenode here, apparently
[17:05] <knome> yeah, np.
[17:05] <knome> and don't worry about the package names, we will find out
[17:05] <charlie-tca> Okay
[17:05] <knome> so it's onboard and mouse tweaks? or is there something else too
[17:06] <charlie-tca> I have to poke around a clean install and let you know
[17:06] <knome> okay, thanks if you can
[17:06] <charlie-tca> I will try to do that this week
[17:07] <knome> yeah, that should work, since we need a FFe anyway
[17:07] <jandrusk> So XChat allows you to do what you want with the IGNORE directive?
[17:07] <charlie-tca> Well, to be honest, without a screen reader that is working, an accessible install is not usable
[17:08] <charlie-tca> jandrusk: no idea. Never use IGNORE here
[17:08] <knome> charlie-tca, yeah i understand that. i just want to take the initial step
[17:08] <jandrusk> I think Unit193 was stating that earlier.
[17:09] <Unit193> jandrusk: That was a random one with knome, but I don't know if it does.
[17:09] <jandrusk> Unit193: Thanks.
[17:10] <jandrusk> Been using irssi for several months and love it. 
[17:10] <Unit193> Sure is.
[17:11] <jandrusk> Love the Perl integration. 
[17:16] <knome> Unit193, well clearly, those should be possible to fix with perl scripts
[17:17] <Unit193> knome: Do I look like I know perl? (and it'd have to be light, already having a few small issues with resources.)
[17:17] <knome> no, i don't know what you look like
[17:22] <jandrusk> Maybe I'll will look at building a script. 
[17:51] <Unit193> charlie-tca: Do you care what type I do?
[17:52] <charlie-tca> I follow my schedule at http://2tu.us/48mf
[17:52] <charlie-tca> but any tests are welcome!
[17:54] <Unit193> I am doing at least one alt and one desktop. First desktop can't be split, that was how I did it last time. :P
[17:55] <charlie-tca> Then do a whole disk install. It at least shows we did a test and it worked or failed.
[17:56] <charlie-tca> I think we care more about whether or not they work then the type of partitioning used
[17:57] <Unit193> Manual, but yep, just asking if you wanted something before I picked.
[17:57] <charlie-tca> Thank you for asking.
[18:01] <Unit193> Bah, Ubiquity crashed on right click in partition still...
[18:02] <charlie-tca> really?
[18:02] <charlie-tca> I haven't tried that lately
[18:02] <Unit193> Did it to me last time.
[18:36] <Unit193> It still works as long as you do not right click.
[21:35] <micahg> mr_pouit: BTW, Ubuntu desktop is 20MB more oversized than us, so I figured to let them sort it out first, then we can sort it out, BTW, also, I'm planning on updating gimp tonight to 2.6.12
[21:35] <micahg> mr_pouit: and thanks for the meta upload
[21:36] <charlie-tca> It should settle down after feature freeze, when they quit adding so much to Ubuntu
[21:36] <micahg> well, we're in a tougher spot, they're about to drop webkit-gtk2 which we can't do
[21:36] <charlie-tca> micahg: might be between beta1 and 2 that we get things straightened out on size again
[21:36] <micahg> yeah, most likely
[21:37] <charlie-tca> We have to look at what they added for us that we don't need. Maybe nautilus, evolution, some other crap
[21:37] <charlie-tca> Then we look at languages
[21:37] <micahg> hmm, we shouldn't have any of that in our images (if we do, there are bugs in the dependency chains which we can fix now)
[21:38] <charlie-tca> I know we shouldn't, but that don't mean we haven't
[21:38] <charlie-tca> Same with languages, did they add a bunch to us again?
[21:40] <micahg> they shouldn't be adding languages for us, those are in our specific seeds, not the platform ones AFAIK
[21:41] <micahg> dropping tango should give us another MB or 2
[21:41] <charlie-tca> but a lot of times, when they add the language packs to Ubuntu, they seem to give them to us also
[21:42] <charlie-tca> I'm just going by past things that made the images grow
[21:43] <micahg> ah, ok
[21:43] <micahg> well, we'll  have see, I think we still 5-6 languages, so we have some leeway, but we can probably get by pruning other stuff
[21:45] <charlie-tca> yup. Wasn't ready to worry about it yet
[21:46] <micahg> tonight I just want to get the new gimp and aptitude in
[21:46] <charlie-tca> Good idea
[21:54] <knome> micahg, there was some discussion about things we could drop in #shimmer before, so you might want to talk with mr_pouit about that if you need a hand with that :)
[21:58] <micahg> nah, not worrying about dropping ATM, just pushing everything in before FF :)
[21:59] <knome> yup, but if there is a need
[21:59] <knome> we might think dropping some of those anyway for Q :)
[21:59] <knome> even if languages are kind of a "nice plus", i'm not really comfortable dropping them again and again
[22:33] <knome> pleia2, ohai
[22:34] <knome> pleia2, noticed our newest tweets? :)
[22:37] <pleia2> knome: yeah! :D
[22:37] <knome> like the style?
[22:38] <pleia2> yep that's good
[22:38] <knome> okay, good
[22:38] <knome> don't want to be too "official"