[00:41] <h00k> .2
[00:41] <charlie-tca> .4
[14:58] <NCommander> #starteeting
[14:58] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[14:58] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 16 14:58:35 2012 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:58] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[14:58] <ogra_> you are early today
[14:58] <janimo`> hi
[14:59] <infinity> o/
[14:59] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120216
[15:00] <NCommander> #topic ActionItem Review
[15:00] <NCommander> #topic rsalveti to follow with riku to see if chromium will get fixed
[15:00] <ogra_> looks like that was done
[15:00] <infinity> Riku and micahg were discussing chromium earlier.
[15:00] <infinity> Seems like it's nearly there.
[15:00] <ogra_> we had an extensive discussion this morning
[15:01] <mahmoh> o/
[15:01] <ogra_> and while we are at fixing, 1000 hugs to janimo` for fixing libO in just a few days of work :)
[15:01] <janimo`> ogasawara, well it was a few days work preceded by a few days of staring at the code dumbfounded
[15:02] <ogra_> heh
[15:02] <NCommander> yay janimo`
[15:02]  * ogra_ hugs ogasawara ...
[15:02] <infinity> ogra_: You've been upgraded to ogasawara!
[15:02] <ogra_> she always steals my pings !
[15:02] <janimo`> awesome!
[15:02] <janimo`> ogra_, start lurking the kernel channel and steal some back
[15:02] <NCommander> anyway, no rsajdok so moving on
[15:03] <ogra_> janimo`, i'm resident there, she steals them there too
[15:03] <NCommander> #topic Standing Items
[15:03] <NCommander> #topic http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
[15:03]  * ogra_ guesses we need to postpone everything thats FF cfritical today 
[15:03] <ogra_> *critical
[15:03] <GrueMaster> Looks like the TODO items have taken a dip.
[15:04] <infinity> I don't think any of my items will be blocked by FF.  Sadly.
[15:04]  * ogra_ is still planning to fix the ubuntu-core DL page if i ever find out how the heck infinity manages to make make-web-indiciec being ignored
[15:04] <NCommander> ogra_: deep voodoo
[15:05] <ogra_> yeah
[15:05] <ogra_> maple voodo :)
[15:05] <infinity> :P
[15:05] <infinity> We can talk later.
[15:05] <infinity> I didn't realise you were having issues.
[15:05] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander)
[15:05] <NCommander> linux-armadaxp exists
[15:05] <ogra_> yeah, not today though
[15:06] <infinity> It even installs.
[15:06] <ogra_> .... i didnt shout yet since i want to find out myself first :)
[15:06] <NCommander> working on the d-i portion, and working with cooloney to merge in the lastest bits from Marvell
[15:06] <ogra_> ready today ?
[15:07] <NCommander> We didn't quite make feature freeze withthe actual d-i bit but the rest should be there
[15:08] <NCommander> except images tonight/tomrrow
[15:08] <ogra_> ready tomorrow ? (else i need to notify about the FF exception in tomorrows release meeting)
[15:08] <ogra_> ok
[15:08] <NCommander> ogra_: probably tonight if everything goes as planned.If not,tomorrow
[15:08] <NCommander> disclaimer
[15:09] <ogra_> ok
[15:09] <NCommander> this is for netboot. I do plan to try to build alternates but I don't know ifthey'll work right offthebat
[15:09] <ogra_> if not tomorrow, please let me know
[15:09] <NCommander> will do
[15:09] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
[15:09] <ppisati> new kernel release yesterday (1406.8)
[15:10] <ppisati> with audio fixes
[15:10] <GrueMaster> yea!
[15:10] <ppisati> now i'm working on the "set mac address" from the cmdline
[15:10] <ppisati> it's broken since natty
[15:10]  * janimo` is currently building a new ac100 3.0.19 kernel and if all's well it is going to be uploaded soon. 
[15:10] <ogra_> \o/
[15:10] <ogra_> janimo`, i think -exp was merged yesterday into the stable branch btw
[15:11] <GrueMaster> janimo`: Let me know when it gets in.
[15:11] <janimo`> ogra_, yes, and two more sound related commits since yesterday
[15:11] <janimo`> GrueMaster, sure
[15:11] <ogra_> yup
[15:11] <GrueMaster> I want to see if it fixes the start-r board.
[15:11] <janimo`> GrueMaster, start-r ?
[15:11] <infinity> Wrong kernel..
[15:11] <janimo`> I may need extra config options if that is some USB dongle
[15:11] <GrueMaster> New rev.
[15:12] <janimo`> GrueMaster, ac100
[15:12] <GrueMaster> Oh.
[15:12]  * GrueMaster sips more coffee.
[15:13] <ogra_> NCommander, move ?
[15:13] <NCommander> [topic[ ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:13] <NCommander> bah ninjaed
[15:13]  * NCommander hugs janimo` for libo
[15:14]  * janimo` hugs NCommander 
[15:14] <janimo`> for libo
[15:14] <ogra_> humm ... upstart
[15:14] <NCommander> and funeral services will be held for his sanity next thursday at 15:00 UTC.
[15:14] <janimo`> I am debugging upstart now
[15:14] <ogra_> ah, cool
[15:14] <infinity> The upstart failure isn't arm-specific.
[15:14] <janimo`> as in just fired up gdb. Not sure why it built on armel
[15:14] <infinity> It takes several builds to beat the race on x86 buildds.
[15:14] <NCommander> infinity: thatbug is STILL around?
[15:15] <infinity> We've just been throwing it back until it sticks. :/
[15:15] <NCommander> I remember keybuk working on that race when he was still here
[15:15] <janimo`> infinity, so it is a bug but very subtle. throw it back I guess then :)
[15:15] <infinity> janimo`: That said, arm-specific or not, the upstart devs might appreciate someone finding the problem.
[15:15] <ogra_> infinity, well, let the awesome janimo` look at it :)
[15:15] <infinity> janimo`: We can't get it to stick reliably on arm, that's the problem. :P
[15:15] <janimo`> if we used systemd we could just blame Lennart. Now we have to do actual debugging, grumble
[15:16] <ogra_> lol
[15:16] <ogra_> now thats a reason for switching
[15:16] <GrueMaster> heh
[15:16] <ogra_> "because we can whine about lennart"
[15:16] <NCommander> somehow, I don't think it would make ARM bugs vanish
[15:16] <GrueMaster> I think slangasek was looking at this yesterday as well.  Saw a post of him mucking with cross-compiling in qemu.
[15:17] <ogra_> NCommander, no, but we could just just blame him for them ;)
[15:17] <janimo`> we should persuade Lennart to take over upstream upstart maintainership, then we can blame him without switching
[15:17] <NCommander> ogra_: but we can blame Scott for upstart so whats the difference :-P
[15:18] <ogra_> janimo`, awesome idea !
[15:18] <infinity> vorlon's upload was meant to fix the test that still fails so, yeah, catching up with him might be good.
[15:18] <ogra_> NCommander, we like scott
[15:18] <NCommander> [action] janimo` to get Lennart to maintain upstart
[15:18] <meetingology> ACTION: janimo` to get Lennart to maintain upstart
[15:18] <NCommander> I figured you got libo fixed, that shouldn't be hard
[15:18] <janimo`> hmm, you have apoint
[15:19] <NCommander> anyway
[15:19] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:19] <ogra_> broken today
[15:19] <NCommander> To soon be existing for arm server
[15:19] <ogra_> thanks to compiz ftbfs
[15:19] <ogra_> (across the board)
[15:19] <janimo`> that compiz ftbfs seems like a QT issue
[15:19] <ogra_> oh, and an announcement (seems to fit here)
[15:19] <janimo`> the kde backend is the one failing
[15:19] <ogra_> canonical will from today on support armhf
[15:19] <ogra_> '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
[15:19] <janimo`> \o/
[15:20] <GrueMaster> WOOT!
[15:20] <ogra_> and turn armel into community supported
[15:20] <NCommander> so GrueMaster will still test it!
[15:20] <infinity> I'm dropping armel+mx5 and armel+omap4 images today.
[15:20] <ogra_> i guess infinity can tell us which images we still build for armel
[15:20] <GrueMaster> Are we dropping image builds for armel?
[15:20] <GrueMaster> YEA!
[15:20] <ogra_> GrueMaster, not all
[15:20] <infinity> We'll still build armel+omap and armel+ac100, and drop ac100 when nvidia gives us armhf drivers.
[15:20] <janimo`> that means there are slots freed for live image testbuilds sometime soonish ?
[15:20] <infinity> Ultimately, we should just be building armel+omap for smoketesting.
[15:21] <infinity> janimo`: Not really.
[15:21] <infinity> janimo`: It means we don't have to wait 16 hours for all the images to build.
[15:21] <janimo`> infinity, you keep shattering my dreams
[15:21] <ogra_> janimo`, there are tons of slots once infinity is done with the move to LP buildds for image builds
[15:21] <NCommander> janimo`: he's good at that
[15:21] <ogra_> but that will still take a bit
[15:21] <janimo`> he has no sleep and dreams, so messes with others'
[15:22] <infinity> Yes, yes, I'm a bad man.
[15:22] <infinity> Moving on.
[15:22] <ogra_> ++
[15:22] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
[15:22] <GrueMaster> I wrote a few scripts to do server load testing.  One for the lamp stack, one for rabbitmq.
[15:23] <GrueMaster> Also working on getting power meter data acquisition going.  Works on a panda so far.
[15:23] <ogra_> nice
[15:24] <ogra_> do you have any intel based comparison data ?
[15:24] <GrueMaster> Tested daily images earlier this week, no sudden deaths.  Looking solid.
[15:24] <ogra_> (i.e. from cking)
[15:24] <GrueMaster> Unfortunately, it is just a digital amp meter.  Very hard to get power loads across multiple voltages.
[15:24] <ogra_> ah, k
[15:24] <GrueMaster> he is testing with a laptop.
[15:25] <ogra_> right
[15:25] <GrueMaster> And completely different loads.
[15:25] <ogra_> k
[15:25] <NCommander> anything else?
[15:26] <NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
[15:26] <ogra_> move
[15:26] <NCommander> er
[15:26] <GrueMaster> I put my arm server test system on a kill-a-watt device, but it barely registers.
[15:26] <mahmoh> I ran some kernel burn in yesterday and pushed a PTS script to the workload branch - getting to WI today
[15:26] <ogra_> oh. lots else :)
[15:26] <NCommander> still no rsajdok
[15:26] <NCommander> er
[15:27] <NCommander> still no rsalveti
[15:27] <NCommander> [topic] AOB
[15:27] <ogra_> well, lets skip this then
[15:27] <Riddell> janimo`: it seems gcc has got stricter again and some new errors are turning up, that compiz issue is one
[15:27] <ogra_> though i would have loved to hear where compiz stands :(
[15:27] <GrueMaster> janimo`: I'd like to get info on how you tested erlang & rabbitmq last cycle. after the meeting
[15:27] <Riddell> janimo`: and so is digikam and something else
[15:27] <janimo`> GrueMaster, ok
[15:27] <janimo`> Riddell, ah, so a bug for Linaro gcc folks I guess?
[15:27] <ogra_> or for doko .)
[15:27] <Riddell> janimo`: it's probably not hard to work out the way to keep the compiler happy but it's hard for me with no arm hardware
[15:28] <Riddell> janimo`: or just drop the kde compiz bits as a workaround
[15:28] <Riddell> janimo`: only if they enjoy fixing c++ cast problems :)
[15:28] <janimo`> Riddell, ok, we'll probably do that as a workaround since the alternative is fixing and uploading Qt
[15:28] <GrueMaster> Riddell: I thought you had a panda?
[15:28] <janimo`> which takes longer
[15:28] <Riddell> janimo`: compiz is a "bug" in kdelibs not qt
[15:28] <janimo`> Riddell, it's part of their job to fix C++ cast problems :)
[15:28] <Riddell> GrueMaster: I do, yet to find time/knowledge to set it up
[15:29] <infinity> janimo`: Fixing the errors seems saner than disabling features.
[15:29]  * ogra_ agrees that compiz is a bug .... not only in kdelibs
[15:29] <janimo`> infinity, sure unless fixing it means no images for weeks?
[15:29] <GrueMaster> Riddell: Get with me offline, I can get you up and running in minutes.
[15:29] <ogra_> yes, getting a panda up is a matter of a few minutes nowadays
[15:29] <Riddell> GrueMaster: I will do next time I find some minutes
[15:30] <ogra_> (plus download time)
[15:32] <NCommander> anything else or can I close?
[15:32] <ogra_> close
[15:33] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[15:33] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 16 15:33:03 2012 UTC.
[15:33] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-16-14.58.moin.txt
[15:33] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-16-14.58.html
[17:00] <AlanBell> o/
[17:00] <czajkowski> AlanBell: aloha
[17:01] <dholbach> hey
[17:02] <czajkowski> #startmeeting
[17:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 16 17:02:26 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:03] <czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:03] <czajkowski> is todays agenda
[17:03]  * Pici waves
[17:03] <czajkowski> who's here from the CC ?
[17:03]  * dholbach is
[17:03] <pleia2> o/
[17:03] <Gwaihir> o/
[17:04] <czajkowski> ok shall we start with the IRCC catch up ?
[17:04] <czajkowski> #topic IRCC Catch up
[17:04] <czajkowski> aloha and welcome to the IRCC Catch up, thanks for coming along
[17:04] <AlanBell> hiya
[17:04] <czajkowski> who's here from the IRCC
[17:04] <dholbach> hey - how are you all doing?
[17:05] <AlanBell> not sure the time worked out for funkyHat and topyli
[17:05] <AlanBell> we are doing great :)
[17:05] <Pici> Yeah!
[17:05] <czajkowski> AlanBell: Pici thanks for coming along
[17:05] <czajkowski> it's pretty informal, just care to tell us what ye've been doing, anything we should know about, and what we can do to help
[17:05] <AlanBell> we have had three productive team meetings so far
[17:06] <Pici> We're organizing a bot-jam to get some requested features implemented in ubottu
[17:06] <AlanBell> and made progress on the floodbot code which is now in a launchpad private repository
[17:06] <pleia2> great
[17:06] <czajkowski> thats good to hear
[17:06] <AlanBell> the process of welcoming #lubuntu into the list of core channels is well underway with operator training starting soon
[17:08] <pleia2> I'm glad to see the training system in place for the IRC team, some teams struggle with proper training once folks are appointed
[17:08] <dholbach> what do you feel takes up the most time of the IRC Council right now?
[17:09] <AlanBell> interesting question :)
[17:09] <dholbach> is it more about starting discussion and keeping the discussions going or is it things like op/member approval and other governance process bits?
[17:10] <dholbach> (I don't have a doubt you all are busy people. :-))
[17:10] <Pici> Hmm.. Things are relatively quiet right now, but channel/operator organization and appeals tend to be the biggest timesinks.
[17:11] <dholbach> is channel/operator organisation and appeals something which comes up in bursts or is it always busy like that?
[17:12] <Pici> It comes in bursts.  Also just keeping an eye on how operators deal with issues, before they become something that might warrant a user's appeal.
[17:12] <sabdfl> hello all, sorry for my tardiness
[17:12] <czajkowski> Pici: AlanBell and how is the new council working out? Is there any way we the CC can help ?
[17:12] <popey> sabdfl: http://paste.ubuntu.com/844650/ for catching up
[17:13] <sabdfl> thanks popey
[17:13] <AlanBell> sorry, got interrupted for a sec
[17:13] <Pici> I think we're doing fine right now.  I know I've poked some CCers in our channel in the past for advice/questions, but nothing serious at this time.
[17:14] <czajkowski> Pici: great stuff. and how goes the plan for the IRCC for the coming months?
[17:14] <AlanBell> we have a bit of a list of task to organise around bots
[17:14] <czajkowski> so is the main focus the sorting out of bots for the time being then ops?
[17:15] <sabdfl> on the people front, what's the escalation process? i.e. how quickly does stuff land on the IRCC's desk when there's a dispute?
[17:17] <czajkowski> AlanBell: Pici ?
[17:17] <Pici> Beyond speaking to the operator who took action, the current appeals process asks a user to first drop into #ubuntu-ops if they have an issue.  If they still think that they have been treated unfairly, or do not agree with an operator, they are given information on how to contact the IRCC directly.
[17:18] <Pici> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess
[17:18] <Pici> There has been some discussion on using the bot to automatically provide that link to people who have been removed/banned/muted in our channels, but for now we provide that manually.
[17:21] <Pici> Unfortunately, we can't stop people from going over our heads at the outset of a ban, some people think that their best course of action is to email sabdfl directly.  As far as I see from emails forwarded back our way, this doesn't happen that often though.
[17:21] <sabdfl> i haven't had one of those for ages
[17:21] <czajkowski> Pici: the same happens to the LC and they mail jono people dont always follow the process
[17:21] <sabdfl> which is, i think, a good sign
[17:22] <sabdfl> that people recognise the delegation of responsibility
[17:22] <Pici> Agreed.
[17:22] <sabdfl> can we tell which ops are around, and have some sort of random raw for a quick "review team" which cannot be gamed?
[17:23] <sabdfl> i.e. cannot have an op do something knowing her friends will be on the review team?
[17:23] <sabdfl> or does this just happen in #ubuntu-ops now, informally?
[17:24] <AlanBell> resolution of issues is done in #ubuntu-ops which is publicly logged and open for everyone to review
[17:25] <AlanBell> it isn't unheard of for people to want to discuss their ban with a different operator to the one that banned them, which is fine
[17:26] <Pici> By way of our bots, we also track and store all bans made in our channels in a searchable web app, so we can be sure what op banned and which removed a given ban.
[17:26] <AlanBell> escallated issues come to the IRCC, we have had only one this year (which was directed to sabdfl and arrived at us via Claire)
[17:27] <AlanBell> are there any particular things the CC would like us to focus on?
[17:28] <pleia2> is there anyone here from the broader IRC team who has any comments?
[17:29] <pangolin> Just got here, not sure what the topic is though
[17:30] <AlanBell> it is our IRCC checkup with the CC
[17:30] <oCean> I'd like to say that I really like how the new IRCC is taking up responsibilities, and putting a real effort in getting things done. Things that have been on hold way too long
[17:30]  * AlanBell notes the nice bot set the topic
[17:30] <pangolin> ah, from a quick scroll back I see I am sorta the topic
[17:30] <pleia2> thanks oCean :)
[17:30] <czajkowski> oCean: good to hear
[17:30] <dholbach> Do many IRC community members join the meetings? Are there many agenda items being added? Is there much discussion?
[17:31] <Myrtti> well, at least I can say that christel's evil plan to assimilate all (present and retired) Ubuntu IRC ops seems to be going on well...
[17:31] <AlanBell> there is lots of discussion dholbach, and lots of ops in the meeting
[17:31] <dholbach> Myrtti, can you elaborate?
[17:31]  * Myrtti points at her cloak
[17:32] <AlanBell> dholbach: I have been attempting to keep the meetings running to time but there is no shortage of discussion points
[17:32] <AlanBell> nice cloak Myrtti, careful it doesn't drag on the floor and get dirty
[17:32] <dholbach> Myrtti, aha! :)
[17:32] <dholbach> I personally am happy to see that training is happening and many more people are actively involved in discussing and making decisions and also that you are collectively working on the bots now.
[17:34] <czajkowski> us there anything else people would like to add ?
[17:34] <AlanBell> one thing I have been pondering is to do a training course every release cycle, so we have a regular intake of a batch of new operators
[17:34] <dholbach> AlanBell, you could start at Ubuntu Open Week :)
[17:34] <sabdfl> i have a sense of organisation now that hasn't existed in some time in the IRC world, which is really great to see
[17:34] <czajkowski> sabdfl: +1
[17:34] <AlanBell> dholbach: well we are starting with the #lubuntu intake
[17:34] <czajkowski> it's really impressive to see folks, keep up the great work
[17:34] <dholbach> yeah :)
[17:35] <oCean> sabdfl: yes, and that pays off too: it's easier for others to get more and more involved
[17:35] <AlanBell> another thing we will be doing in 3 months or so is filling the empty 5th seat on the IRCC
[17:35] <Myrtti> I'm writing the basic ops guide at the moment, it has an extension to how to use the most awesome IRC client in the planet, we're setting a date when we can start having the classroom sessions for our new batch of core ops
[17:35] <Myrtti> (before you ask, irssi)
[17:37]  * AlanBell looks forward to learning of this irssi stuff, sounds interesting
[17:39] <pleia2> thanks for coming :)
[17:39] <sabdfl> this is all super. should we wrap and move on?
[17:39] <dholbach> so thanks everyone in the IRC community for keeping things rolling nicely
[17:39] <sabdfl> well done, IRCC, and thanks for the update
[17:39] <AlanBell> thanks o/
[17:39] <czajkowski> ok so moving on
[17:39] <czajkowski> #topic PPA and CoC
[17:39] <czajkowski> #link https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-dev/msg08934.html
[17:39] <czajkowski> this was brought by lifeless on the dev mailing list
[17:40] <sabdfl> i would prefer to:
[17:40] <czajkowski> at present the CoC doesn;t covr malware uploads, and there isn;t anything in there to cover PPas
[17:40] <sabdfl>  * make it possible to sign the CoC with a click-through
[17:40] <popey> related to this is bug 926720
[17:40] <czajkowski> the questio bis is it useful to sign the CoC before uploading a PPA
[17:40] <sabdfl>  * enfore it in the member-of-a-team case too
[17:40] <sabdfl> yes it is
[17:40] <sabdfl> and i think the CoC does cover malware
[17:41] <dholbach> sabdfl, +1
[17:41] <sabdfl> in the "be excellent to each other" is not "yay malware!" sense :)
[17:41] <czajkowski> well it's not explicit but yes I do get your point
[17:41] <ScottK> Also isn't PPA a Launchpad issue, not an Ubuntu issue?
[17:42] <Myrtti> well, this PPA bug started actually on IRC, we're constantly having people in #ubuntu helping others by telling them to use a PPA
[17:42] <czajkowski> not such a clean divide I think
[17:42] <ScottK> IIRC the PPA ToS are clear on it.
[17:43] <dholbach> arguably packages in PPAs are built for Ubuntu, for Ubuntu users
[17:43] <czajkowski> dholbach: indeed
[17:43] <ScottK> Ubuntu CoC can't apply to all Launchpad users.  It's much bigger than Ubuntu.
[17:43] <dholbach> so I can see a pretty solid connection between PPAs and the CoC
[17:44] <ScottK> It's been my understanding since PPAs were created that PPAs are built "on" Ubuntu.  They aren't part of the distro.
[17:45] <sabdfl> ScottK, this is basically a ToS that we set for folk using a service Canonical made for Ubuntu developers
[17:45] <ScottK> They aren't unrelated, but tons of stuff to which the CoC doesn't apply are closely related.
[17:45] <sabdfl> i.e. we provide buildd's and archive space free, and wanted a low bar for agreement on good behaviour
[17:45] <ScottK> PPAs are not a service for Ubuntu developers.  They are a service for any Launchpad user.
[17:45] <sabdfl> CoC is a part of that
[17:46] <sabdfl> the Ubuntu CoC is not just for members. It's a code of conduct that we want to be as widely used as possible, surely?
[17:46] <ScottK> Right, but IIRC there's a specific ToS for PPA use that already covers this case.
[17:47] <ScottK> I think if I'm an upstream who wants to make a PPA to provide development snapshots and updates to Ubuntu users via the PPA system, having to take on Ubuntu's social values might seem like a lot.
[17:47] <sabdfl> would we not want to encourage our broader community to reference the CoC?
[17:47] <sabdfl> for example, for comments on OMGU?
[17:47] <ScottK> I think that's up to the people that run OMGU.
[17:47] <sabdfl> well, you can do those things on your own hardware without having to agree it :)
[17:48] <sabdfl> yes, it is, but why would we object?
[17:48] <dholbach> surely, I didn't mean to get into a discussion about PPAs being part of Ubuntu - but I think it's reasonable for an uploader to agree on the CoC as part of offering Ubuntu packages, for Ubuntu users, of their software - to me it feels like the CoC strongly applies, and it's not just a ToS-we-already-had-around
[17:48] <ScottK> We wouldn't.
[17:48] <ScottK> I agree we want to encourage it.
[17:48] <sabdfl> right. so why object to having it be a requirement for PPA uploading?
[17:48] <czajkowski> sabdfl: so coming back to the mail from lifeless to the dev list, do you think the reply there is that yes we should be enforcing the signing of the CoC for PPA use?
[17:48] <sabdfl> yes, i do :)
[17:48] <czajkowski> ok
[17:48] <ScottK> Encouraging and requiring aren't the same things.
[17:49] <bkerensa> sabdfl: I know that Joey Sneddon does enforce the CoC to some degree as I have pointed out issues in comments before and they have quickly addressed them but I can pass it along
[17:49] <czajkowski> so should we reply to lifeless mail suggesting this and the link to here or do we need to go further
[17:49] <ScottK> I think it's a mistake to enforce the project's social values (as opposed to encouraging) on external parties, but I don't get a vote, so ...
[17:52] <czajkowski> ok, any other comments before we move on
[17:52] <czajkowski> we've limited time and one more topic
[17:52] <czajkowski> #topic Launchpad Polls
[17:53] <czajkowski> #link https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00023.html
[17:53] <sabdfl> ScottK, this is not Ubuntu enforcing it on a third party
[17:53] <czajkowski> ops sorry sabdfl
[17:53] <sabdfl> this is a third party (well, two-and-a-halfth party :) choosing it
[17:53] <sabdfl> just the same as OMGU might
[17:54] <czajkowski> so a discussion has come about regarding the life of polls on lp, at present we all know they don't work as well as we would hope, but they are at present a cost to LP with regards to maintenance and it's a feature they are looking to help people move away from
[17:54] <czajkowski> or would encourage people to submit patches to help maintain them
[17:55] <czajkowski> but all features are a cost even if they are not being used.
[17:55] <pleia2> the LP folks haven't responded to my email explaining the reason we need them
[17:55] <pleia2> I don't really know where we can go from here without a response
[17:56] <czajkowski> pleia2: nods I know some teams use them, but I think from discussions I've read they something the lp team would like to remove as it's a cost to them.
[17:56] <dholbach> is there a way how we could use CIVS polls instead with a "none of the above" vote?
[17:56] <czajkowski> but I'll poke lp to reply to you
[17:57] <pleia2> dholbach: ask dholbach for his magic scraping of email address script
[17:57] <pleia2> ;)
[17:57] <czajkowski> dholbach: what is the reson we just dont use CIVS at present ?
[17:57] <pleia2> a lot of people don't have public addresses
[17:57] <dholbach> I think we just need to agree on a way to do confirmation polls
[17:58] <pleia2> (particularly on teams like ubuntu-women, where a lot of our members keep their addresses private)
[17:58] <pleia2> I'll pastebin the email I sent, sec
[17:59] <popey> The whole voting system in launchpad seems very cumbersome and prone to error on the part of the user.
[17:59] <pleia2> http://paste.ubuntu.com/844712/
[17:59] <dholbach> popey, yes
[17:59] <popey> I've seen numerous polls screwed up as a result
[17:59] <popey> restarted, abandoned, etc
[17:59] <dholbach> perhaps we need an agreement that the LP team can hand out email addresses of the team to core governance boards
[18:00] <dholbach> ... for purposes such as voting
[18:00] <dholbach> I mean, if you know how to work the LP API you can get a lot of email addresses already anyway - but having that agreement would make things a lot cleaner and easier
[18:00] <popey> I can see many people protesting or opting out of that
[18:01] <czajkowski> nods
[18:01] <popey> hard to do after the effect
[18:01] <popey> I mean, people who have signed up to LP for ~years may protest at this change in policy. people get very funny about their email protection
[18:01] <czajkowski> nods
[18:01] <czajkowski> you could also argue if you want to vote you'll make your email available of course.
[18:01] <dholbach> at the last CC election (all ubuntu members were mailed) we had somebody complain and Mark responded to that - there's just not any other way
[18:02] <pleia2> yeah, I included a note about that in my paste above
[18:03] <czajkowski> Perhaps to move forward I'll poke LP folks  to reply to pleia2 email
[18:03] <pleia2> thanks czajkowski
[18:03] <czajkowski> and also perhaps the CC should be looking at alternatives so we have a plan
[18:04] <Gwaihir> Scott was talking about an open source alternative, but I think it was only for CIVS, with maybe U-SSO, we might ask him
[18:04] <pleia2> we could do something like set up CIVS for everyone with public addresses and use "contact this team" to get an email to everyone saying "if you didn't get a ballot because your address is hidden, let us know"
[18:04] <czajkowski> ok any other comments
[18:05] <dholbach> no, I'm all set - we obviously need to keep this discussion going
[18:05] <pleia2> the conversation is currently on ubuntu-council-teams
[18:05] <czajkowski> perhaps we can take  it there the link is in the agenda
[18:05] <czajkowski> I need to dash here
[18:06] <czajkowski> #link https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-council-teams/msg00023.html
[18:06] <czajkowski> #endmeeting
[18:06] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb 16 18:06:26 2012 UTC.
[18:06] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-16-17.02.moin.txt
[18:06] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-16-17.02.html
[18:06] <czajkowski> thanks folks for coming
[18:06] <dholbach> thanks everyone
[18:06] <Gwaihir> thank all!
[18:08] <bkerensa> :)