snap-lbrousch: Yeah, we've all moved to pycharm00:17
snap-lautocomplete FTW00:18
WolfgerHappy Friday12:56
Wolfgerdon't forget Penguicon "bring a friend" party tonight. With free-as-in-beer beer (I think)12:57
mydogsnameisrudythere's a party going on somewhere?12:58
mydogsnameisrudyoh heh to far12:59
WolfgerPenguicon is hosting a party at the hotel where the convention will be this year.12:59
WolfgerIt's specifically aimed at getting people who haven't been to Penguicon to come out and get an idea what it's like.13:00
WolfgerSo brousch, get out there and check it out :-)13:00
brouschtoo scary13:00
brouschAbout: 40413:01
brouschthe about page should just redirect to the rules page13:04
mydogsnameisrudyhmm this party mostly programers?13:05
brouschi get the impression it's mostly wackos13:06
mydogsnameisrudyhmmm drag show lol13:07
mydogsnameisrudyyep i c13:07
WolfgerI resent being called a wacko13:17
WolfgerYou will find virtually any (and every) flavor of geek at P-con13:19
Wolfgersome of them are even too strange for me...13:19
brouschWolfger: mostly wackos, you might fall into the non-wacko segment. might13:19
Wolfgerdoubt it :-)13:19
brouschnot that there's anything wrong with that13:19
WolfgerI fly my freak flag(s) proudly13:20
brouschi heartily support your right to be a wacko13:20
Wolfgerwhat about a Yakko or a Dot?13:21
Wolfgeror Pinky and the Brain?13:21
brouschoh wow, the BBB sent me an urgent notice using my own email address. i'd better jump right on this13:21
brouschomg. someone is complaining about their dealership with me13:23
WolfgerSomething about the phrase "multiple life sentences" just screams "your legal system is completely FUBAR"13:25
brouschseems like one life sentence should be sufficient13:29
Wolfgeryou would think13:29
brouschis it just me, or do the "oldies" on this list seem overpriced? http://shop.oreilly.com/category/deals/oldies-but-goodies.do?imm_mid=07ed2a&cmp=em-orm-books-videos-oldies-goodies-short-elist13:30
brouschDNS and Bind from 6 years ago for $20?13:31
brouschfor an ebook?13:31
brouschalso 2 ruby books, no python?13:32
snap-lbrousch: How many changes are you aware of in DNS?13:32
snap-lOutside of DNSSEC, not much has changed. :)13:32
snap-land I'm not sure that's all that new.13:32
brouschhm, maybe you're right. it is $21 used on amazon13:34
snap-lbrousch: I'd expect Wolfger to be fielding dealership complaints sooner than I'd expect you to be fielding them. :)13:42
nullspacejust looked clojure syntax, all I can say is yikes14:42
nullspaceI can read it but I think using it for anything complex is just going to hurt14:43
snap-lnullspace: ever played with Lisp?14:46
snap-lIt's very similar.14:46
jrwrenbrousch: yes, everything on that list is overpriced14:49
rick_hheh, the fact that they half off new books for DoTD, give any UG 35% off the top means that books are just overpriced14:50
jrwrenclojure is a lisp isn't it?14:53
jrwrenits scheme for jvm, right?14:53
jrwren"Clojure is a dialect of Lisp," from clojure.org14:54
snap-lI don't think there's a "one true lisp"14:54
jrwrenright, that is what I'm saying.14:54
snap-lIt's like English14:54
jrwrenits a lisp14:54
jrwrenlike scheme is a lisp14:54
jrwrenlike elisp is a lisp14:54
jrwrenlike common lisp is a lisp14:54
snap-lLike MIT Scheme is not like GNU Scheme is not like ...14:55
jrwrenwell you could argue that John McCarthy's 1960 paper defines the one true lisp14:55
jrwrenexactly! MIT scheme would be > GNU Scheme :)14:56
snap-lJust seems whenever someone creates a LISP interpreter, they also create a new dialect to go with it14:57
snap-lAnd we're not talking separate accents, but whole categories of slang.14:57
jrwrenand there are thousands, becuase its a project that 1/2 of all computer science students do at one point :p14:58
snap-ljrwren: truth14:58
nullspacesnap-l: have yet to play with Lisp, though I am intrigued15:09
nullspacewhen I see a new language that I understand but I don't see the reason for why it's doing things in a certain way I think that there has to be a good reasona nd maybe a godo use for it15:11
nullspaceotherwise why the hell was it created15:11
snap-lnullspace: the enduring languages have purposes15:12
nullspaceexcept brainfuck, that's just there to screw with your head15:12
snap-lsometimes languages are just created as a programming exercise.15:12
nullspaceI think I'll give clojure a spin through the first ten problems of project euler this weekend15:14
_stink_and even within common lisp implementations, there are enough significant differences to be totally annoying.15:24
_stink_especially with system interfacing stuff.15:24
_stink_i like the competitive ecosystem... until i try to accomodate it.  then i hate it.15:24
snap-l_stink_: ++ ++ ++ ++ ++15:28
jrwrenrick_h: did you see the nodejs video I retweeted?15:45
jrwreni LOLed a lot15:45
rick_hjrwren: will take a peek15:47
brouschi just created a custom django templatetag and corrected a django snippet. i think i am becoming assimilated15:57
brouschalso, heroku is fun. `git push heroku master` and my updates are live16:00
jrwrenrick_h: it was orig a jwz tweet if you can't find it16:11
rick_hjrwren: thanks, saw the tweet go by but didn't "understand" what it was so skipped by16:27
snap-lWhat the fuck16:28
snap-lJust discovered UNity has some keyboard shortcuts for tiling16:28
snap-lAccidentally hit CTRL-ALT-NUmpad 0 and my window went fullscreen16:28
snap-lCTRL-ALT-2,4,6,8 also move the window to that side16:29
snap-lHell, the whole thing is boobytrapped. :)16:29
snap-lDBO: This is your doing!!!!16:29
brouschthey're trying to make rick_h happy16:36
rick_hheh, not quite. anything + a number is a horrible shortcut16:36
snap-lWell, and it's only for a numberpad16:37
snap-lso rick_h gets no love there either16:37
rick_hso doesn't work if you dont' have a numpad on your laptop?16:37
rick_hbah, wasted code imo16:37
rick_hwhy do we have to have the most retarded setups for things? ugh!16:40
rick_hjust getting annoyed at the way every little bit of code in the world we put together is strange and half working as #@$@#$@#16:44
rick_hhaving a ranty friday16:44
rick_hpackages with buildout.cfg, but they don't work, then the README says to do this other thing, and rather than any sane test thing, find out we've built some magic https://launchpad.net/testrepository thing that this package uses16:48
rick_hheh, and I see this is written because we've got giant ass test suites that day a workday to run: http://rbtcollins.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/testrepository-iteration-for-python-projects/16:49
brouscha whole day?16:49
brouschthat's insane16:50
rick_hit's why we run the damn things in ec2, it's fire/forget16:50
brouschthis is crazy traffic to my work website. i led a grwebdev meeting on the 23rd but never mentioned my work at all. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/101667/traffic_from_grwebdev_wtf.png16:56
Wolfgerrick_h: no numpad on your keyboard? How do you live?17:18
Wolfgerall day tests, fire and forget? No way. "Quit playing games and get back to work."  "I am working. I'm running tests on the code." :-)17:20
Wolfgersingle-threading ftw17:20
rick_hWolfger: this is what pqm is for17:21
rick_hWolfger: and yes, I don't have a keypad on many of my keyboards <317:22
WolfgerI always wanted the numpad on the left, not the right17:23
Wolfgerthose keyboards are hard to find and/or obscenely expensive17:23
jrwrennumpad is bad.17:24
jrwrennot ergo.17:24
jrwrenmouse should be there.17:24
jrwrenif mouse is past the numpad it is too far and you have to stretch to far to reach it.17:24
jrwrenbad ergo17:24
WolfgerWhy are you using a mouse? Just keep your hands on the keyboard.17:28
rick_hoh come on Wolfger, I can't believe a kde user isn't moues heavy17:28
rick_hif you truly didn't usea mouse much you'd be on a different DE17:28
Wolfgerbut yeah, that's why I want the numpad on the left... No reaching for mouse17:28
rick_hexactly, which is why I like my 10less keyborads17:29
rick_hI give up...going home and calling in sick17:29
Wolfger"Where's Rick?" "He was here earlier, then I got an e-mail that he wasn't feeling well and wouldn't be in today..."17:30
jrwrensnap-l: gah! your tweet and blog post... i still don't have anyone to open the door for you.17:39
snap-ljrwren: No worries. Just LMK if it's not going to happen.17:40
rick_hsnap-l: crap, wife's working on that day :(17:45
snap-lWEll that's no good.17:48
rick_hI might be able to see if grandpa can watch him for an hour/two between me leaving and mom getting home since he's in town17:49
rick_hbut not sure17:49
rick_hI'll shoot for it, but might not be able to make it out. No offense, but not going to run out at 2pm when wife gets home17:49
rick_htoo much driving for too little time17:50
snap-lYeah, understandable17:50
brouschwow. got my second recruiter call ever at work. they want me to do iOS development18:42
brouschdamn fools18:42
snap-lOh geez18:52
rick_hcome on, that's one cool looking michigan logo there :)18:55
ColonelPanic001Waterloo's amuses me18:56
rick_hok, who wants to take this one? http://www.quora.com/What-can-vim-do-that-nano-cant?__snids__=3396930718:59
rick_hyou win one internets18:59
snap-lOh jesus19:01
snap-lThat's like asking what's the difference between a woman and a Barbie doll.19:01
snap-lOr the difference between a Navy Seal and a GI Joe action figure.19:02
brouschso ... you're saying vim can have real sex instead of just pretend?19:03
snap-l"What's the difference between theory and practice? In theory, they're the same"19:03
* brousch checks his vim book's ToC more closely19:03
snap-lbrousch: There's a plugin for that19:03
snap-lalso, do not google gspot vim19:04
brouschbased on those people i know who use vim, that is not an image search i want to encounter19:05
brouschsnap-l: whoa http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=024247819:12
snap-lYeah, they're cheeeeeeep19:13
snap-lEven 4GB is $5 each19:13
brouschi actually can't find any 1GB for under $2 each19:14
brouschi bought a 5 pack 2 years ago for $619:15
snap-lThat's still pretty cheap.19:15
snap-lYeah, I think they bottom out after a while19:15
nullspacesome how I missed this whole non blocking arguement the node.js fan boys are thrwoing around19:15
snap-lnullspace: How so?19:16
rick_hnullspace: huh?19:16
rick_hthat's the whole things with eventlet/node/etc19:16
rick_hwhole point that is19:16
rick_hdon't solve the concurrency problem, just work around it by making things not concurrent :)19:17
snap-lWell, and use a language that is event based19:17
snap-lor very good at events along with a seriously optimized engine19:18
rick_hwell the events just facilitate jumping in/out of the reactor/main thread19:19
rick_hnullspace: so anyway, what's the issue or whatever with the realization?19:19
nullspaceI don't understand there arguement. did this make sense any time node.js came into being19:20
rick_hyes, the idea is that all the libraries/etc you use are non-blocking so that whenever you make a call to mysql/etc19:20
rick_hit happens outside the main thread allowing for another bit of code to be processed19:21
rick_hin this one, one thread handles more work faster by getting anything that hangs cpu cyles out of the way19:21
rick_h /this one/this way19:21
rick_hfor instance, in python, when I run a db query, it sits and waits for the db to respond, that python thread doesn't do any other work while waiting19:22
rick_hbut it could be serving someone else's cached result in that time19:22
nullspaceisn't there ways to write multi thread python?19:23
rick_hyes, but there's a GIL you have to deal with19:23
rick_hand it's really ineffecient for many many things19:23
snap-lGIL being the Global Lock19:23
rick_hand any time you get multi-threaded you have to think harder19:24
snap-l(I being ... :) )19:24
rick_hsee java multi threading/locks/etc19:24
snap-lGlobal Interpreter Lock19:24
nullspaceyeah that's not really a problem I can say I run into19:26
snap-lnullspace: Well, you might run into it in small forms19:26
snap-lbut much like benchmarking different CPUs nowadays, you'll care a lot if you care a lot. ;)19:27
snap-lotherwise, you won't care that much until it starts breaking things.19:27
nullspaceI think there are way bigger fish to fry19:28
snap-lYeah, like setting up Eclipse. ;)19:28
nullspacehey, eclipse works just fine for me19:30
rick_hanyone else off monday?19:30
snap-lrick_h: Not I19:31
snap-lUnless you work for the government, I don't think you get Monday off.19:32
nullspacehmm well node could be really handy on embedded devices with a web frontend19:46
rick_hnullspace: node is very handle for very fast little services and some people have built really large apps with it19:48
rick_hhandy that is19:48
rick_hI did a contact lookup thing that could handle many more req/s on the one cpu than python could19:48
rick_hthe other handy space is the JS from back end to front end19:50
jrwrenlol, hilarious.19:51
rick_hjrwren: which part :)19:52
rick_hah, yea19:56
jrwrennullspace: the nonblcoking arguement: see Twisted Python19:59
jrwrenor even stackless python20:00
jrwrenand maybe pypy greenlets20:00
rick_hgevent, etc20:00
Blazeixrick_h: do you have an opinion on gunicorn/geven vs uwsgi? I was trying to wrap my head around that last night.20:02
Blazeixgunicorn is theoretically production-class, right? not just some little dev server?20:02
brouschBlazeix: supposedly20:04
brouschi'm using it to serve tens of requests per day on heroku20:04
rick_hBlazeix: yea, but it's pretty bare bones20:04
rick_hBlazeix: I'd still put it behind nginx/company20:04
rick_hBlazeix: uwsgi has some extra added nice features20:05
rick_hbut I think gunicorn is winning the battle tbh20:05
rick_hbut one thing at morpace I wold them on, was that it could "shut down" an app, and reload it on first request20:05
brouschit doesn't really do static files, so you still need something else in front20:05
rick_hso let's say you were deploying 50 wsgi apps, rather than 50 apps + 10 workers per app, sitting idle20:05
rick_hit could actually shut down the apps to the 5 current accepting requests20:05
rick_hand if #6 got a request, it'd take the time to load it20:05
rick_hbrousch: right, static files, ssl, caching, etc20:06
rick_hBlazeix: and uwsgi is pure python, so no C libraries/compiling while gevent needs some C libs20:06
brouschthe pure python is the most awesome part. pip install gunicorn20:07
rick_hBlazeix: nvm...it's not pure python, I lied20:08
rick_hbut yea, it's pip installable, gunicorn is as well20:08
brouschit's not?20:09
rick_hno, gunicorn needs some c compiled bits for the gevent support20:09
rick_hdamn, maybe I'm having a bad friday...don't see it20:10
Blazeixok, cool. it kind of seems like gunicorn exploded on to the scene.20:11
Blazeixbut maybe i'm just too far from the python community right now.20:11
rick_hah, ok so gunicorn is pure python ootb, but yuou can change the worker model to eventlet of gevent for performance20:11
rick_hand those are C-based, I thoght it used gevent ootb20:11
rick_hBlazeix: yea, gunicorn is winning I think because it started out with built in django support20:12
rick_hand has since really gotten helpers to make it a lot easier/performs well20:12
rick_hand docs that don't suck as hard as uwsgi20:12
rick_hI love uwsgi --help and seeing20:12
rick_h-X "not documented yet"20:12
rick_hfor options in there lol20:12
brouschwell `python manage.py run_gunicorn` is a lot easier than farting around with apache+mod_wsgi20:16
rick_hyea, definitely20:17
rick_hI see django 1.4 will finally have a .wsgi ootb now20:17
brouschi should say much easier than python+mod_wsgi+ virtualenv, because that's what really makes it a bitch20:17
* rick_h rants on django some more20:17
snap-lrick_h: 'bout fucking time20:17
brouschwe don't need no stinking .wsgi20:18
* rick_h smacks brousch upside the head with a cluebat (no baby sticks here)20:18
rick_hbut yea, that's why gunicorn got a boost, it knew django users didn't wsgi ootb so it made it easy up front20:19
rick_hwhile everyone else just supports wsgi dammit20:19
snap-lThere's no reason not to support wsgi20:19
snap-lNone. Zero. Zip.20:20
rick_hman precise downloads so painfully slow :/20:51
jrwrenrsync daily from testdrive :[21:07
Blazeixanyone have an opinion on the "Agile and Beyond" conference that's coming up?21:11
Blazeixmy work wants me to go it, but for some reason i have a bad taste in my mouth about it.21:12
Blazeixi guess i'm worried it's going to be bunch of Big-A Agile people.21:12
snap-lWhat's the worst that could happen?21:12
snap-lA little Kool-Aid, some sneakers, and a loooong nap?21:13
Blazeixmy brain could leak from my ears.21:13
rick_hBlazeix: yea, I couldn't sit through it21:14
rick_hBlazeix: Searls gave the talk at detroit dev days on jasmine21:14
rick_hbut I mean side v side kanban talks? rly?21:14
rick_hheh, the improv talk from detroit dev days is going on there again21:15
Blazeixi've only ever used Kanban as a punchline, which I fear wouldn't go over well there.21:15
rick_hBlazeix: yea, it sure seems like a mgr thing than a code in an editor thing :/21:16
brouschas i work on this project i find i'm collecting a bunch of little bash scripts for repetative tasks, like refreshing static files locally and on the server. is this where i should be using fabric?21:35
snap-lIf you're repeating a script, yes.21:39
snap-lIf you have to keep a list of what script to run next, yes.21:39
rick_hbrousch: fabric or Makefile22:01
rick_hI'm coming around to the Makefile way of life22:01
rick_hthuogh still <3 fabric22:01
snap-luh oh. :)22:17
snap-lLoaded up the good reads app on my nook23:09
snap-lI'm a little disappointed with it23:09
snap-lwould be nice to have it automatically grab titles from the device23:10
snap-linstead, it's essentially the website in app form23:10
brouschsnap-l rick_h sort of good news http://paste.mitechie.com/show/542/23:41
rick_hbrousch: ah, nice23:49

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