=== beuno_ is now known as beuno
h00kgord: Do you happen to know a channel?00:36
h00koh, I see discussion above.00:36
h00kAlso, I'll volunteer to be an op.00:36
=== kloeri_ is now known as kloeri
ubottuchelz called the ops in #ubuntu-offtopic ()01:08
phillw#ubuntu-android ?  KISS :P01:25
h00kI'm pastebinning tis so it cna be logged01:34
h00kfor full disclosure01:34
h00khttp://pastebin.ubuntu.com/852113/ for final discussion01:42
bazhang@mark #ubuntu very_sad cheering on floodbots04:01
ubottuThe operation succeeded.04:01
bazhang<very_sad> whaddup hoes   <---- in -ot now04:05
z3x334uhello friends04:07
pangolinhow can we help you?04:09
z3x334ui heard the Ubuntu is making an OS for smartphones that will work with existing OSes to make the phone be able to hae a desktop mode04:09
z3x334uwhy isn't ubuntu making an optional OS replacement for Android, i personally would prefer that even better04:10
pangolinyou can get more info at http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android/features-and-specs or try #ubuntu-phone04:10
z3x334ubut, i heard you need to get a new for for that feature04:11
bazhanga new ?04:11
pangolinz3x334u: this is not a support channel and we don't have any more info than the link I just gave you04:11
z3x334uthe hardware tech is not available yet04:11
pangolinevening dax04:11
z3x334unew = a new phone*04:12
pangolinz3x334u: again this isn't a support channel.04:12
pangolinthe link i gave you does have a contact link04:12
z3x334uwhat is this channel about?04:13
pangolinmainly for resolving bans in the Ubuntu core channels04:13
z3x334ulol oh04:13
pangolinz3x334u: if there is nothing else, please /part this channel.04:15
z3x334uok bye :(04:15
bazhang* [incognegro] (~3Four@adsl-108-210-214-63.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net): Michael Brooks05:29
bazhangthat seems suspicious05:29
bazhangincog and negro?05:29
bazhanga vbox of lubuntu on lubuntu livecd?05:53
bazhang<helpmeASAP> I'm going you all are confusing me05:54
bazhang<helpmeASAP> Especially when I have Down Syndrome05:54
bazhang* lolyourmum (~anonymous@
bazhang* [helpmeASAP] (~anonymous@ purple06:01
pangolinnow * sweetsugar06:03
bazhang< t-roll detected >06:03
ubottupangolin called the ops in #ubuntu-offtopic ()08:38
bazhangikonia, #defocus means he needs to read the topic and wait for voice13:25
ikoniaahhh yes13:26
bazhangkalimojo has been asking that same question in #ubuntu for at least a couple-three days now13:26
tjiggi_foI was invited here last night by hook to air my concerns13:38
bazhangtjiggi_fo, about?13:38
tjiggi_fohttp://pastebin.ubuntu.com/852113/  about that13:39
ikoniatjiggi_fo: this has long been an issue for me, in that #ubuntu-offtopic is just random offtopic that people could spend the day just saying "moooo" in if they want13:40
tjiggi_foheh, agreed13:41
tjiggi_fotime to change that13:41
ikoniait would be interesting if it was an "ubuntu discussion channel" but not support, but then people want a place in the ubuntu name space to just say "moooooooo" all day13:41
ikoniaor "ubuntu woot !!!"13:41
ikoniatjiggi_fo: in honesty your flogging a dead horse on this one13:41
tjiggi_foikonia, well that may be but I'm going to flog it anyway13:42
ikoniait seems more important to have 4 fully offtopic channel #ubuntu-offtopic #kubuntu-offtopic #xubuntu-offtopic and #lubuntu-offtopic so that people can say "yay fishcakes" or what ever in the middle of peoples discussions, than to actually have a place to disacuss ubuntu (such as the direction it's going, ubuntu-tv, ubuntu-android etc)13:42
LjLwhat happened?13:42
ikoniatjiggi_fo: ok, I suggest you email the ubuntu IRC council expressing your concern13:42
AlanBellgood suggestion13:43
tjiggi_fohere is my response to h00ks invite: http://pastebin.com/cweBGfTY13:43
tjiggi_foand for those who don't have logs here it what sparked it:  http://pastebin.com/dqRk08UA13:44
tjiggi_foI'm not at the computer all day but you can PM me if you need me to return13:44
LjLrobinet irks me a lot too.13:47
LjLwe should do something about it.13:47
LjLhe's kind of my friend, but he trolls SO much.13:47
ikoniaLjL: it's not just him in the channel though13:48
ikoniaI can be having a discussion with you and some one just starts making random comments and it ruins the flow13:49
LjLwell i don't see that as a problem13:49
LjLthere's no "priority", if we're having a discussion someone else can have their own13:49
ikoniait's not a problem, it just makes it hard for a quality discussion13:49
LjLrobinet's issue is different, he is constantly confrontational and accusatory13:49
ikoniamultiple discussions I don't have an issue with, people just going "yay monkey food" and random comments just irk me13:49
bazhangsuch is the nature of a channel with no true purpose13:49
ikoniabazhang: I know but there seems little desire for a purpose for it or the other multiple offtopic channels13:50
bazhang#defocus is the same13:50
ikoniaLjL: and I agree, it's a seperate issue13:50
LjLthe purpose is chilling, ikonia, and i really don't agree with your dislike for "random" comments. they're part of what has always defined the channel, and i think that's fine.13:51
LjLwhen someone constantly trolls, though, that doesn't help chilling.13:51
h00kI'm unsure of the proper resolution, because as it was said, it's kind of beating a dead horse in 'how do we fix the channel'13:51
h00koh, also, hi.13:51
LjLh00k: we fix it by going back a little to how it was before every action had to be strictly justified by the channel guidelines13:52
LjLonce upon a time, the common sense was that when someone was trolling, they had to stop13:52
h00kto enforce, perhaps, the 'friendly' aspect more could definitely help13:54
LjLalso perhaps in finding out "how to fix it" we should ponder "how did we break it", because while there were always complaints about it, it used to be a much friendlier place13:54
AlanBellas I understand it the purpose was a place for Ubuntu contributors to chill out13:57
h00k*is ?13:57
jussiI think thats pretty much how it has been broken, is in an "unfriendly" application of said guidelines, rather than the guidelines themselves. theres no need to be sharp when we are asking people to not do stuff.13:57
bazhangthe "break room"13:58
h00kmoar friendly we need.13:58
AlanBellmoar contributors we need13:58
bazhangI totally disagree jussi13:58
bazhangthe broke part came when all the silliness was effectively outlawed in there13:59
LjLjussi: so you say, too unfriendly when enforcing things. and i kind of agree. but at the same time, i think there's an aspect that's in a way opposite to that, i.e. we've tolerated too much in the name of "well, the guidelines don't forbid that". i say "opposite" but i don't really think they contradict each other, they're too complementary problems.13:59
bazhangubottu plugins, fun factoids etc13:59
ubottubazhang: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)13:59
h00kThe resolution that I had last night didn't involve kicking or banning anyone, I didn't feel that was appropriate to what was happening.14:00
AlanBellfriendly and fun is ok14:00
h00kthe particular situation was robinetd (Beezow) disagreeing and being a bit harsh in a conversation, and had !ops called on him14:00
h00kI more14:00
bazhangit was a welcoming place before the fun was legislated away. all stick and no carrot these days14:01
h00kI more/less wanted to be 'ladies/gentlemen, chill'14:01
tsimpsonbazhang: which legislation did that?14:03
h00kthat's why I wanted to bring it up in here, to see if that is really a bannable offense, perhaps I could have done something different, or somehow perhaps we need to attempt to change the tone of -offtopic14:03
bazhangtsimpson, the removal of all silly factoids, the removal of all silly ubottu plugins14:03
bazhanglart etc etc etc14:04
bazhangfun break room became grim dungeon14:04
h00kI miss lart :/14:04
tsimpsonI really don't think ubottu was the only, or even main, "fun thing" about -ot14:04
LjLh00k: you're not under inspection, you took the course of action you thought best, and i can't just say you should have done it differently like this or that. i'm just saying, the fact that !ops was called like that shows there *is* a general uneasiness, with robinetd in particular since it's hardly the first time.14:05
bazhangcertainly not, but the "let's make this a serious discussion only room" did14:05
jussiI think lart is a horrible thing. its derrogatory, downputting and horrible.14:06
bazhangsometimes people have been helping for many many hours, and just want some place...silly14:06
LjLh00k: but if i had to say how i would have done it, maybe i wouldn't have placed too much emphasis on the inappropriateness of calling !ops (well, the second time i would have), and i would have asked robinetd to chill out14:06
tsimpsonbazhang: I don't know what part made it "a serious discussion only room", that's what I'm confused about14:06
h00kLjL: which, in conversation, he did immediately14:06
h00kthe conversation turned to 'maple syrup' as a topic14:07
bazhangtsimpson, I'm not aware of how much time you have spent in that channel over the last several years14:07
h00ksyrup is an odd word. that is all.14:07
tsimpsonbazhang: I may not be too active there, but I idle in there and keep an eye on it most of the time14:08
AlanBell"<+bazhang> sometimes people have been helping for many many hours, and just want some place...silly" how many of them are helpers?14:08
bazhangAlanBell, currently? a small handful. that was not the case in the past.14:09
LjLwell no doubt people who want a friendly atmosphere get scared away nowadays14:09
bazhangnow it's just another channel that needs to watched with a hawk's eye for possible guideline infringements14:09
bazhangLjL, exactly14:09
LjLftr i also didn't like the removal of the "fun" factoids, quite at all, sometimes i really think some of u ppl r 2 srs bsns.14:10
LjLat the same time, i don't think that was the core problem.14:10
tsimpsonI don't think there has been any "legislation" to make ops strictly enforce the guidelines to the letter in -ot, in fact the previous council was rather resistant to that idea14:10
bazhangit was a chipping away on a number of fronts. thats only one example14:11
tsimpsonin fact, the biggest contention about -ot was always regarding "support questions in -ot"14:12
MyrttiI didn't know fun factoids were removed14:12
Myrttiall I know was that the ones that referenced directly to a person were14:12
bazhangall of them, just about. perhaps !hammertime still exists, along with !love14:12
Myrttiie. !nickname14:12
tsimpsonwhich we didn't really want to legislate on, because -ot is not always strictly black and white14:12
jussifun factoids arent remioved, only personal ones-14:12
ubottucoffee is a caffeinated beverage made by filtering hot water through ground up roasted beans of the coffee plant. Flavouring to taste such as milk or cream, sugar or sweetener are often added afterwards. Not to be confused with !java14:13
bazhangI was personally told not to say "fun has been outlawed here"14:13
AlanBelldoes anyone have any proposals on how to get from where we are now, to a fun and relaxing place for Ubuntu contributors to chill out?14:15
ikoniaAlanBell: you raise an intereting point, it's for ubuntu contributors to chill out, yet a big chunk of the channel are just people who have no interest in ubuntu, nothing to do with it and just use it as a place to spout randomness14:15
jussiremove robinetd, atomicspark, and afew others permanently? :P :P :P14:15
* jussi laughs evilly14:15
bazhangthat ship has sailed. you cannot unring that bell14:16
LjLjussi: it's no laughing matter, laughing is against the guidelines14:16
knomejussi, especially chipmunk laughter.14:16
h00kOr just tell them to lighten up a bit, mostly robinetd14:16
jussimeh, I cant find an appropriate insult at this time14:17
h00kjussi: I bet !lart would have worked ;)14:17
bazhangtoo fun. cannot.14:17
jussih00k: nah, lart doesnt come with an inbuilt ":P"14:17
LjLAlanBell: two proposals. 1) ops should be less afraid of intervening when something is not going "right", even if there's nothing specifically against the guidelines 2) at the same time, when they're doing that (or even when they're actually enforcing things) ops should try to be friendly, and encourage users to be the same.14:17
h00kjussi: you can do !lart | bazhang :p14:18
LjLi hate it when i see things like !u thrown gratuitously, for instance14:18
ikoniaLjL: I also hate seeing people type "u"14:18
jussiI think !u shouldnt beapplied in #u-ot tbh14:18
LjLjussi: i think it should14:18
ikoniaI don't want to have to translate what I'm reading14:18
LjLbut with a grain of salt14:18
LjLone thing is consistently mangling one's english14:18
ikoniai sud not have 2 work out wat is beeng sed14:18
LjLanother thing is saying "no u" for fun14:18
h00kless afraid if intervening, but we don't want to give the overbearing 'no fun, we watch everything14:18
tsimpsonI think it may be better to actually ask the person to type proper English, rather than just shoving a bot command at them14:19
jussithe factoid is a recomendation for support channels so people can actually seriously help14:19
LjLtsimpson: that, too14:19
bazhangwhich is where it is now14:19
ikoniatsimpson: yes, I'm all for that14:19
LjLjussi: don't agree. that factoid, together with some of the stricter application of the "swearing" guidelines (like not allowing obscure acronyms), help indirectly to keep the channel conversation level "intelligent", like the topic says.14:19
ikoniaLjL: has the basic concept right of common sense14:19
jussithe whole lolspeak is a culture thing, and lets face it, we are all a little old for it (well most of us).14:20
h00kno u14:20
ikoniajussi: no, it's not14:20
ikoniajussi: it's a communication thing14:20
ikoniajussi: people chose to do it14:20
tsimpsonin #u, where there is usually more scroll, a bot command can be a quick way to get the point across without too much channel disruption. but in -ot, there are usually fewer conversations going on, so there isn't so much need for it14:20
jussiyeah, and people grow up with different ways of speaking, or would you like me to speak 1800's style?14:20
ikoniajussi: sorry no14:21
LjLwell jussi, i know young people who don't use "lolspeak" unless they're making a point of using it, and sparingly at that. and let's not deny that we already are, and cannot avoid, enforcing our own idea of "culture" in the channels we run.14:21
ikoniajussi: would you type a letter like that, or write to a job interview like that ?14:21
ikoniajussi: would you put that sort of content in a changefile or a README14:21
ikoniano, because it's not easy to read14:21
jussiabsolutely no, but is -ot any of those? or even close? no, its a social area.14:21
ikoniajussi: that people need to be able to read and understand14:22
LjLa social area that i'd like to have a different fingerprint from any other random uneducated social area on the internet.14:22
ikoniaLjL: I think most people would agree with that14:22
LjLotherwise let's just +f #defocus or some other channel, if we're going to be like everyone else14:22
ikoniait is currently defocus14:22
jussiLjL: you are correct of course, but what Im trying to say, is we need to be a little more easy on it and not be authoratarian about it.14:23
LjLjussi: yes with that i agree14:23
ikoniathat's what tsimpson said, just ask people rather than hit the bot over and over14:23
ikoniawhich I think is pretty reasonable, human interaction14:23
jussino, not even just ask people, but ask people *as a user* NOT *as an op*14:23
LjLjussi: i just don't agree that we should drop the idea that you shouldn't talk in lolspeak riddles. because i think you shouldn't. *unless* you're doing it for comedic effect or something, and that has to be judged with common sense, *while* still being friendly in case your common sense fails and you end up giving a warning that everyone disagrees with14:23
bazhang"do no harm"14:24
ikoniaLjL: the issue (despite what jussi is aying) was half brough on by the previous council in that ops couldn't use common sense and where constantly held accountable to process14:24
ikoniathat helped take it to a pit in that you had to wait for someone to do something bad 5 times with clear warnings before you could take action14:25
ikoniaor you had to have a line in the guidelines they had cross before you could speak to them14:25
ikoniarather than common sense14:25
tsimpsonikonia: which rule did that though? I really can't think of an action that we implemented that did what you suggest14:25
LjLtsimpson: it's not all about explicit rules decided at meetings.14:25
ikoniatsimpson: I pre-emptivly banned bacta after he trolled 6 ubuntu channels14:25
ikoniatsimpson: I was told that was wrong as he'd not broken a rule in #ubuntu-offtopic14:25
ikoniaso he was allowed to sit in there making stupid comments enough times for him to be removed14:26
tsimpsonikonia: but how does that extend to what we're on about now?14:26
ikonia(as an obvious clear example)14:26
ikoniatsimpson: because part of the reason it's so rigid now is because you couldn't use common sense14:26
ikoniatsimpson: if you used common sense you where moaned at and advised to "let them break a rule"14:26
tsimpsonit's one case, pre-emptive banning leads to more bad things than good14:27
ikoniatsimpson: no, I'm using it as an example, it's not one case14:27
ikoniatsimpson: how many times in irc meetings did I call for "common sense rather than procedure"14:27
tsimpsonI'm just asking what rule we implemented made it so you can't use common sense?14:28
ikoniait wasn't a rule14:28
ikoniaas I've just said14:28
tsimpsonin the specific case of pre-emptive banning, we made a judgement, but not about every other cultural thing that happens in -ot14:28
ikoniait was one example14:28
ikoniaas I've said there are many more14:29
tsimpsonwell lets get them out in the open, so they can be fixed14:29
ikoniaI called many times in the meetings that we moderated by stupid robotic policy rather than common sense14:29
tsimpsonif the current council don't know the issues, they can't  help14:29
ikoniatsimpson: please !!!! I used to bring example after examples to the meetings14:29
ikoniaI gave up14:29
tsimpsonwell here's your chance ikonia, a new council with different people. if you have problems with how the previous council ran things, speak up and let the new council know how you want them to change things14:30
ikoniaI've expressed how pleased I am with the new council, even stuff I don't agree with them on14:31
ikoniaI think they are quite aware14:31
ikoniaI'm not looking to bring up old issues, but I am stating that part of the reason it's so unfriendly in moderation is because the previous council pushed such process driven moderation14:31
ikoniarather than common sense14:31
tsimpsonI wouldn't be so surprised that the previous council (including me) was resistant to you. you can come across a bit confrontational14:31
ikoniapossibly because it was the only way to get things done14:32
tsimpson that's why I just want a calm, just the facts, conversation about how things can be better14:32
tsimpsonikonia: it's a poor, demotivating, approach14:32
ikoniatsimpson: tell me about it,14:32
ikoniatsimpson: that's why I gave up14:33
tsimpsonthat's why the council gave up on listening to you14:33
ikoniareally, so you are saying the council activly ignored my issues ?14:33
tsimpsonit was not a good state to be in14:33
ikoniajust confirm that14:33
h00khow can we move forward?14:33
ikoniano, I'd like that clarified14:34
tsimpsonwell, after a while of you just screaming "NO YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!11-eleventy-one", yeah, I stopped listening to it14:34
ikoniathat you are stating the previous council ignored the issues I raised14:34
ikoniatsimpson: please show me where I did that - you just wanted a conversation with the facts14:34
ikoniaI'd like to see that14:34
ikoniaI remember sending 25 emails on topics, posting wiki pages with new info, writing documents to help improve things14:34
tsimpsonlook back on the logs of meetings, in here, on the agenda14:35
ikoniaI don't remember screaming that14:35
tsimpsonand the emails, yes14:35
ikoniawhat emails ? there where polite and constructive14:35
ikoniaor they where onces chasing why I'd not had a response in 6 months14:35
ikoniaplease show where I was not constructive or helpful and tried to find a way forward14:35
tsimpsonI'd rather not get into an argument here, I'm just expressing how I felt at the time14:36
tsimpsonand suggesting that there is a better approach14:37
h00kI know you two may have your differences, and with previous councils there were differences, but let's try to work forward :(14:37
* h00k scurries away14:37
ikoniatsimpson: yes, there is a better approach, you could have listened, and reponed to things, rather than ignore them and let people get conrontational after being ignored for 9 months14:37
tsimpsonwe didn't ignore them at first, we tried talking to you. personally, I got the impression you didn't want to listen, unless we were agreeing with you14:39
ikoniareally ?14:39
ikoniathat's why I took all the feedback away, produced documents and "processes" in line with the councils requests14:39
ikoniato try to comply more with what you wanted14:39
ikoniathats why I chased issues that you HAD agreed with for months and months14:39
bazhangwell there's nothing that can be done about that now14:39
ikoniathere is14:40
ikoniaI'm not going to be blamed for the councils non-action14:40
ikonia"we ignored you as you where confrontational"14:40
tsimpsonif you mean the whole core-ops thing, then I've explained that to you too many times for me to try again14:40
h00kwho is the channel owner of #ubuntu-phone ?14:40
bazhangno one blames you14:40
ikoniatsimpson: no, not at all14:40
popeyh00k: I created it14:40
h00kpopey: thanks :)14:40
tsimpsonwe did a lot in our term, inducing getting issues tracked so they aren't lost14:40
ikoniatsimpson: the many other issues and improvements/changes I raised14:40
popeyand -tablet and -tv14:40
tsimpsonI agree that some of what we tried to do may have been too much at times, but we were on a learning curve too14:41
ikoniatsimpson: and no-one can fault that, I have zero issue with that at all14:41
h00kLjL: I'm with you on the actionable item on being friendly, and to perhaps 'confront' more on people (robineted/Beezow/nicknameoftheweek) who aren't being as such.14:46
h00kwithout "BE FRIENDLY OR I BAN YOU" because that won't do the community any good.14:47
LjLyeah although i don't know how to tackle robinetd because i've already told him a number of time his attitude was bleh, and he hardly seemed to care14:49
ikoniaI go back to the point AlanBell raised, it's a supposed to be a channel for ubuntu contributors14:50
tsimpsonno, to the community14:50
h00kwith varying definitions of 'contribution'14:50
tsimpsonno need to contribute14:50
h00kit could be argued that being a part of the community in -offtopic is contribution to the community14:51
ikoniatsimpson: ok, that's still a fair example, there are ton of people who have no ties to the community at all14:51
h00ktherefore, everyone (not banned)14:51
ikoniatsimpson: the word contributor isn't probably the most current definition of the channel, it's a fair point14:51
tsimpsonthere is no need for people who use -ot to be in any other channel of ours, it's just an open space for people to discuss things they have common interests in14:52
ikoniaok - so why is it #ubuntu-offtopic ?14:52
ikoniawhy not just #offtopic14:52
ikoniathere is nothing "ubuntu" about it ?14:52
h00kIt says Ubuntu in the topic </lame humor>14:52
tsimpsonas long as the CoC is kept in mind, and there is a general adherence to the guidelines, it should be an unrestricted as possible14:52
LjLikonia, common sense kicks in again.14:52
ikoniatsimpson: also I wasn't suggesting they had to be in any other channel, more " a community participant"14:53
LjLpeople from #ubuntu are redirected there, so that's a tie.14:53
LjLdiscussions about Ubuntu will happen (even though you say they get discouraged), so that's a tie14:53
LjLit's in the "spirit of Ubuntu", so that's a tie14:53
tsimpsonit's obviously #ubuntu-offtopic because #ubuntu- is in our namespace14:53
ikoniaLjL: there isn't a bad point on that, if they are in #ubuntu, they are using ubuntu (hence why their client got them there)14:53
tsimpsonwe don't own "#offtopic"14:53
h00kSpirit of Ubuntu as a philosophy, also as a topic of a GNU/Linux distribution?14:53
h00k^ to clarify14:53
LjLh00k: what14:54
h00kLjL: in the spirit of Ubuntu, meaning the philosophy?14:54
h00kor the distro.14:54
h00kor both14:54
tsimpsonit's not required to use Ubuntu to talk in -ot, and the discussion there is not restricted to Ubuntu14:54
tsimpsonit's just a safe/friendly space for people to hang out, basically14:54
bazhanghumanity towards all14:54
LjLh00k: mu14:55
bazhang"don't harsh me, dude"14:55
ikoniatsimpson: so as you see it, it's just one of a multitude of Ubuntu names offtopic channels that has no criteria for usage beyond the ubuntu code of conduct ?14:55
h00kLjL: I donno what that means :(14:55
tsimpsonikonia: pretty much, exactly yes14:55
tsimpsonit's just there for whatever, unlike the other channels which have a specific purpose14:55
ikoniaso why don't we point people to defocus ?14:56
ikonia(just for example - maybe not the best one I grant you ) ?14:56
tsimpsonbecause #defocus is neither safe or friendly, for a start14:56
ikoniaok #offtopic (again just an example, but you get the idea)14:56
tsimpsonthe channel still has the spirit of Ubuntu, it's just not a single-purpose channel14:57
ikoniatsimpson: so would it be fair to summerise to say the COC is the key thing there14:57
tsimpsonwe still keep the CoC at the heart of it, and the guidelines to ensure it's safe and friendly for everyone14:57
bazhangyoiks huge ubottu flood14:57
tsimpsonin Ubuntu in general, the CoC is at the heart of it all14:57
tsimpsonthe IRC Guidelines is really just an IRC-specific extension to the CoC14:58
ubottuThe php_register_variable_ex function in php_variables.c in PHP 5.3.9 allows remote attackers to execute arbitrary code via a request containing a large number of variables, related to improper handling of array variables.  NOTE: this vulnerability exists because of an incorrect fix for CVE-2011-4885. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2012-0830)14:58
ikoniawould it be fair to maybe get an agreed definition of the channels use then before deciding how to improve it ?14:58
ikoniaas the scroll in here suggests many people have different views of what it is and what it was and what it should be14:58
* h00k blinks14:58
tsimpsonikonia: that's my point though, it doesn't have _a_ use14:58
tsimpsonit's just for general talk/chat14:59
LjLtbh ikonia, i think you're the only one really disagreeing about its use :P14:59
h00kit has a uses.14:59
ikoniaLjL: fair enough, I was actually under the impression as AlanBell said that it was supposed to be for the community, not be it's own community14:59
tsimpsonh00k: I meant, doesn't have only one use, not that it's useless ;)14:59
ikoniaI'd just not heard that for a while, so thought it worth asking14:59
h00ktsimpson: :D14:59
LjLikonia: i'm pretty sure AlanBell, by saying "for contributors", didn't mean people who're not Ubuntu contributors shouldn't be allowed in... but maybe he can elaborate.15:00
ikoniaLjL: I wasn't saying that either15:00
ikoniaand as I said contributors was the wrong word, tsimpson had it better with community15:00
tsimpsonusing Ubuntu does not mean you're in the Ubuntu community. and not using Ubuntu doesn't mean you're not in the community15:00
tsimpsonif you're involvement in Ubuntu is that you talk to people in -ot, then that's you're involvement15:01
ikoniatsimpson: no not at all, but you still are in the community in some way, if it's a community channel, I'd like to know what that community is ?15:01
tsimpsonmaybe it will lead to them trying Ubuntu, maybe not. it's not really the point15:01
ikoniatsimpson: I don't see the point in trying to lead them to use ubuntu, I don't care if people use it or not15:01
h00kworld domination, etc15:02
tsimpsonthat's what I said, it's not the point15:02
ikoniatsimpson: no, I know that.15:03
ikoniait was simply a comment that I didn't think it was important to use ubuntu or push them to use uubntu in offtopic15:03
ikoniadidn't mean to suggest you implied it as a requirement or recruiting post15:03
tsimpsonok :)15:04
AlanBellLjL: I don't think it is about being allowed in or not, but I think the point of it (fairly sure it is documented somewhere) is that it is for contributors, so the opinions of contributors matter more than those who are not contributors15:04
AlanBellthough I might have been thinking about the original purpose of the sounder list :)15:07
LjLAlanBell: opinions on what matters?15:07
AlanBellwell if we should make any changes to the way -offtopic operates then I would be in favour of things that contributors want over things that non-contributors want15:08
bazhangthere are people who only hang out there, yet still got ubuntu member cloaks, and even ircc posts15:09
Flannel(sorry, I haven't read 99% of the scrollback, but)15:09
AlanBellI don't really have any proposals to make on the matter15:09
LjLAlanBell: hmm, well, i'd personally say i'd be in favor of what the offtopic regulars want, regardless of their other contributions, but i guess yours is also a valid point of view.15:10
FlannelIf people are having /conversations/ in -ot, that's fine.  If someone is essentially monologuing, we have asked them to stop in the past.15:10
LjLyeah and i found that without too much basis15:11
LjLif someone's monologuing, fix it by making a dialogue15:11
LjLand if no one has anything worth saying, might as well keep it a monologue15:11
* AlanBell wonders if "trialogue" is a word15:12
h00kit is now. quick, patent it.15:12
LjLseriously, if people can be asked to stop "monologuing", then i don't see how people who are *trolling* shouldn't be asked to stop15:12
h00ker, (C) it.15:12
FlannelLjL: Some people refuse to engage, or won't take the hint when you start up a conversation on a different topic.15:12
h00kI have to pack, traveling for work. Peace, all.15:13
FlannelIf you want an example (not that I'm picking on said user, but it comes to mind easily): someone has a fixation with flashlights, and works the conversation towards it at every chance (I don't think this has happened in a while, not trying to call people out, just giving an example).15:14
FlannelOr another example (different user, etc): Someone is reading slashdot/youtube/one-of-those-image-sites/whatever, and feels the need to post every second link to the channel.15:16
* AlanBell likes to talk about chickens15:17
popey\o/ marmite15:19
popeyoh, nobody said marmite15:19
popeyhey, I love marmite!15:20
MyrttiI like pink15:44
HFSPLUSMy penis is stuck in my 40oz budweiser (don't ask) how can i get it out?19:50
HFSPLUSalright ljl ban me19:50
ubottuFloodBot1 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (mass join (1531 users, 1 overflows, 1532 limit))23:54

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