=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== bulldog98_ is now known as bulldog98
=== _PaoloRotolo_ is now known as PaoloRotolo
* funkyHat wiggles18:00
* Pici waggles18:00
* h00k straggle18:00
* h00k sighs18:00
* funkyHat signs18:00
AlanBellhi all18:01
* AlanBell is just making a coffee18:01
AlanBellwill start in a sec18:01
h00kjust poured a cup.18:01
* oCean steals that cup18:02
h00koCean: it was a cup of dog food for my dog. but okay.18:02
oCeanit smells18:02
* AlanBell haz coffee18:03
meetingologyMeeting started Sun Feb 26 18:03:05 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.18:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired18:03
AlanBellhi all, who is here for the IRCC/IRC team meeting?18:03
PiciCould someone paste the agenda? I don't have my email handy on this computer.18:03
AlanBellok, thanks for coming, lets get started then18:04
AlanBell#topic Review last meetings action items18:05
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review last meetings action items
AlanBellhmm, sure there were some18:05
AlanBellthere were18:05
AlanBell#progress AlanBell to sort out fridge calendar entries18:06
AlanBellnot done yet, will sort it before the next meeting18:06
AlanBell#progress AlanBell to mail the list asking for help to add ban timeout removal to ubottu18:06
AlanBelldone, I mailed the list proposing a bots hack day for the global jam weekend18:06
AlanBell#topic Open items in the IRCC tracker18:07
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open items in the IRCC tracker
AlanBellwell we didn't raise an item in the tracker, but we are dealing with one issue where a user has made a complaint about a ban18:07
Silverlionany details?18:08
AlanBellit would have been a lot simpler if they had just gone to the -ops channel to get it resolved, it was quite routine18:08
h00kOh. was this the issue raised to me in a /query?18:09
AlanBellno, don't think so h00k18:09
PiciThey went outside the resolution process so we've just been talking to the ops that dealt with the user first.18:10
AlanBellok, lets move on to bugs18:10
AlanBell#topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council18:10
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
AlanBell#subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson18:10
ubottuLaunchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/78850318:10
AlanBellthis is the one with a new draft here: http://notes.kde.org/ubuntuguidelines18:11
AlanBellthey look pretty good to me, I think we need to wikify it and get it published18:11
PiciI think its making good progress myself18:12
* h00k concurs18:12
AlanBellwe might also review it a bit in light of the supporters guidelines that we were working on this week18:12
AlanBellwould be nice to have them as a pair of documents that focus on different audiences18:12
LjLi think maybe we should put some of the more important factoids in the guidelines in addition, to me it seems sometimes the guidelines mention things that aren't an issue often, while those that are are relegated to factoids...18:13
LjLbut that could easily turn into guideline-creep, so not sure18:13
PiciLjL: Do you have an example?18:15
AlanBellwhat would be a good next step on this, I want to do an #action item for it18:15
LjLPici: well, for instance see !etiquette - the fact that we (well, i) felt the need to consolidate a few "good behavior" factoids into one comes close to a set of guidelines18:15
* Silverlion agrees with LjL18:17
LjLPici: maybe we should do it with method, i.e. grep and find which factoids are most often used, and if they're guideline-like factoids, include them18:17
ikoniaa common sense review of the factoids DB in general may be in order18:18
PiciSounds doable18:18
ikoniait's not been done for a while18:18
ikoniadoing things like trying to link to official wiki pages etc18:18
AlanBellhttp://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi?db=ubuntu&search=&order=popularity%20DESC&page=0 popular factoids18:18
h00koh look, how convenient18:19
AlanBellanyhow, next steps? is it ready to go on the wiki?18:19
LjLwell it can't be ready, there are still some "FIXME's" in it18:20
AlanBellthat doesn't mean it can't be edited still, just gets edits at a slower pace and people can subscribe to updates18:20
PiciI think we should send out the whole thing to the list to enourage edits.18:20
AlanBellsounds good18:20
h00kthe whole thing wiki, or as-is in the...multi-user-editor that I can't remember the name of?18:20
AlanBell#action Pici to send mail to the list about the guidelines document to encourage edits and fixes to the FIXMEs18:21
meetingologyACTION: Pici to send mail to the list about the guidelines document to encourage edits and fixes to the FIXMEs18:21
LjLmaybe it should be put on the wiki provisionally and an email sent out, that way it's probably easier to track changes than with the current "editpad"?=18:21
AlanBell#subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi18:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/88467118:21
Picih00k: whichever is more up-to-date.  I'd prefer to keep things on the wiki though, I like seeing edits as the come in.18:22
AlanBellyes, lets put it on the wiki then. Etherpad is good for fast uncontrolled edits and drafting things, the wiki is good for more controlled edits18:22
h00ketherpad. that's it.18:23
AlanBellok, IRC recruitment, I did some scripty things to look at the queues18:23
AlanBellbother, can't find the pastebin link I did, will have to run it again later18:26
* Silverlion pays attention now as a recruit18:26
AlanBellunless anyone can find it in -ops-team from last week18:26
* h00k checks18:26
AlanBellanyhow, I listed everyone in the queues, and highligted those who are existing operators18:26
AlanBellmost of the existing ops who are in a queue are lined up for #ubuntu-server18:27
AlanBellI think we should just process all existing core ops applications for additional channels18:27
PiciI thought we processed that queue already?18:27
h00kAlanBell: http://paste.ubuntu.com/847836/18:27
h00kd'aw. funkyHat wins.18:28
* funkyHat does a dance18:28
AlanBellthats the one I was looking for, thanks18:28
Myrttihold on, how do I read that18:28
h00k My method not so efficient. cat, grep > alan, cat grep paste, review.18:28
AlanBellso **** Team **** channel name marks a new channel, those under it are in the pending queue18:29
PiciMyrtti: If theres a !! in front of your nick then you're already an op somewhere.18:29
AlanBell!! marks someone already a member of an ops team somewhere18:29
ubottuAlanBell: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)18:29
AlanBellsilly ubottu18:29
Myrttiah alright18:29
PiciI don't have any issues approving people who are already an op somewhere.18:30
PiciThey're already vetted imo.18:30
Myrttigot me worried there for a few minutes, there's some nicks on those lists that I'd be worried about18:30
Myrttinice way to raise my heartrate :-P18:30
AlanBellMyrtti: yeah, I am just proposing we do the !! ones without further delay18:31
AlanBellthe rest I think we should do in batches to line up with training18:32
PiciShall we vote on it?18:32
AlanBellyeah, lets18:32
AlanBell#voters AlanBell Pici funkyHat18:32
meetingologyCurrent voters: AlanBell Pici funkyHat18:32
AlanBell#vote channel op applications from existing operators should be processed as and when they are received and the existing applications should be processed without further delay18:33
meetingologyPlease vote on: channel op applications from existing operators should be processed as and when they are received and the existing applications should be processed without further delay18:33
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)18:33
meetingology+1 received from AlanBell18:33
meetingology+1 received from funkyHat18:33
meetingology+1 received from Pici18:33
AlanBellyou are just too fast today funkyHat18:33
meetingologyVoting ended on: channel op applications from existing operators should be processed as and when they are received and the existing applications should be processed without further delay18:33
meetingologyVotes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:018:33
meetingologyMotion carried18:33
h00kthat was a close one.18:33
AlanBell#subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia18:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/89250018:34
* Myrtti rubs her hands18:34
AlanBellyeah, we will be addressing that on the bot-jam day18:34
AlanBell#subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell18:34
Picimmm... robot jam18:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/91354118:34
AlanBellI have not done any more on this18:34
PiciI think some launchpad scripting could show us this quickly.18:34
AlanBellPici: funkyHat: got some time to work on this?18:35
PiciActually, I think someone might already have a script.18:35
AlanBellPici: yes, we have the list18:35
PiciAlanBell: I'll take it.18:35
AlanBell#action Pici to work on the list of expired members18:35
meetingologyACTION: Pici to work on the list of expired members18:35
PiciWe just need someone to go throug it with a staffer?18:35
LjLPici: too late, you've got it now18:35
AlanBellyeah, I did a few, you have to try to contact them, then get an unaffiliated cloak, or do a membership renewal as appropriate18:36
AlanBell#subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell18:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/91624718:36
AlanBellthis was despammed and locked down, we were going to transfer some of the content and close the wiki, just keeping the bug open whilst that happens, but it isn't a high priority18:37
AlanBellok, that is the end of the bugs18:37
AlanBell#topic Why would we allow recommending PPA's in a support channel? Background - oCean18:38
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Why would we allow recommending PPA's in a support channel? Background - oCean
AlanBellok, oCean, you have the floor18:38
oCeanRight, I already started at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal18:38
oCeanIn addition: I would prefer we would stop recommending PPA's altogether, instead of saying "recommend software sources in a logical order" as seen in the recent Supporters Guide18:39
AlanBellI like the idea of a ratings system for PPAs18:39
oCeanOr we would still have these ambivalent situation where factoids and guides claim PPA's are not officially supported, but one can still go ahead, use any PPA, wreck their system, and use good time from helpers in the channels to get the PPA issues sorted18:39
PiciMe too18:39
LjLI really don't think we should put a blanket ban on PPAs. They are an important part of the ecosystem, and additionally, just like it's always been ok to suggest, say, compiling something from source - BUT ONLY AFTER pointing out its availability in repositories, if any, and ONLY WHILE giving appropriate disclaimers - I think it should be ok to suggest a PPA. It's bad to just "randomly recommend" a PPA, but that's another story. I don't think we should18:40
LjLbe conflating the two.18:40
tsimpsonsome PPAs are supported, and #kubuntu will definitely still recommend some PPAs18:40
popeyI find it disappointing that PPAs are rejected en-masse and words like "wrecked" are being used about them18:40
PiciLjL: +118:40
oCeanpopey: are you in #ubuntu a lot?18:41
popeyLjL: +118:41
Silverlionafk for short18:41
popeyoCean: what bearing does that have on the question?18:41
oCeanpopey: then you would notice that a large number of PPA's do wreck people's systems18:41
oCeanit's not something I just came up with18:41
PiciLets not make the mistake of saying that "since there are some bad PPAs that all PPAs are bad"18:42
popeythere are many PPAs that are not problematic18:42
oCeanPici, there are >10,000 active PPA's18:42
h00kIt's true, PPAs can be very bad(tm), but there are some good PPAs that aren't problematic18:42
popeymany PPAs which are in fact maintained by the upstream developers, like unity for example18:42
bazhangincluding the link to the PPA for gnome3 with the fact that a reinstall is the only way to fix was not a good idea18:42
MyrttiI very rarely use PPA's and it is impossible for me to know which PPA's are problematic and which are not. Even if upstream developers maintain them, they may not be well versed with packaging for Ubuntu...18:43
popeyalan@deep-thought:/etc/apt/sources.list.d$ ls -l *.list | wc -l18:43
MyrttiI just really, really hope that the rating system suggested by popeys bug is implemented soon18:43
LjLoCean, it's always possible for a helper to refuse helping someone if they feel they're wasting their time while doing that. I rather think we've been too strict with the "not supported" lately; even if a user "wrecked" their system by doing something unsupported, does that really entitle us to actively stop people from helping with that?18:43
popeysome of us use PPAs a lot and they dont break at all18:43
Picipopey: Those present are hardly a representative group of Ubuntu users.18:44
Myrttipopey: you know yourself WFM isn't a valid answer...18:44
popeyi was merely pointing out a counter position18:44
popeybased on some evidence of a long time ubuntu user18:44
oCeanLjL: I know, sure I want to help them too, but I'd rather have them not install the PPA's at all18:44
oCeanPlease realize that PPA's are suggested _all the time_18:45
oCeanlittle under 1000 mentions of PPA's in the last 3 months for #u alone18:45
bazhangand webupd8 is the top o the list18:45
oCeanthat's without ubottu's explaining what ppa is18:45
PiciI think we need to remind folks that PPAs don't receive the same amount of testing that packages in the repositories do.18:45
h00koh, that place :(18:45
LjLoCean: the root of the problem is that the official repositories contain 30000 packages. That's a lot, but it's hardly enough for a lot of users. Some users simply need/want packages that aren't there. Are we going to instantly mark a system as "not supported" as soon as something not from the official repositories is installed? Isn't that a very "app store" mentality?18:45
LjLPici: we need to do that, and we need to point it out to helpers who neglect to mention that.18:46
LjLPici: but that's a long shot from *banning* them.18:46
LjL(the PPAs, not the users)18:46
PiciLjL: Agreed. A blanket ban on PPAs isn't going to a) work, or b) be followed18:46
bazhangPPA have effectively turned Ubuntu into a rolling release distro18:46
oCeanLjL: I realize that, and of course I use PPA's myself. But there is a difference, because I know how to use them, judge them etc18:46
AlanBelllets review a few factoids18:47
ubottuA Personal Package Archive (PPA) can provide alternate software not normally available in the offical Ubuntu repositories - Looking for a PPA? See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas - WARNING: PPAs are unsupported third-party packages, and you use them at your own risk. See also !addppa18:47
ubottuTo disable a PPA from your sources and revert your packages back to default Ubuntu packages, install ppa-purge and use the command: « sudo ppa-purge ppa:<repository-name>/<subdirectory> » – For more information, see http://www.webupd8.org/2009/12/remove-ppa-repositories-via-command.html18:47
h00kfor reference,18:47
popeyoCean: so teach people who to use them and judge them, rather than use them yourself and reject the use for others18:47
popeythats a very elitest attitude to have18:47
h00koh, never mind, AlanBell beat me.18:47
PiciI heartily agree with popey and LjL here.18:48
MyrttiI just wish 11.04 would go EOL quicker18:48
h00k^ this18:48
AlanBellwhy 11.04?18:48
oCeanPici: that would still leave us with the ambivalence of saying "is not supported", but you can do what you like and ask for help again18:48
funkyHatBuggy unity?18:48
h00kUnity there is  :(18:49
Myrttibecause either people install it to use Gnome2, or then they use a PPA to install Gnome3 on it, and it breaks.18:49
LjLoCean: well, there are various levels of "not supported", and just making it black and white is simply impossible18:49
LjLoCean: Backports is an official thing, yet it's less supported than the main repos, for instance.18:49
Myrttieither way it's the fall-between-cracks version that is infinite source of pain18:49
PicioCean: And? For the majority of people who use PPAs, the PPA that they've used isn't the issue that they've come to #ubuntu to have solved.18:50
oCeanLjL: ok, I understand not everything is black and white, so we have to be more explicit in what the levels of support mean18:50
AlanBellwell this is what I mean about pointing to upgrades in a sensible order, if you are running 11.04 then upgrading through the release numbers is better than a mass of hybrid backports from PPAs18:50
bazhangPPA are an important issue, and agreeing to help fix issues with / related to them18:50
bazhangget it on webupd8, and it's part of the Ubuntu rolling release18:51
MyrttiI don't have problems helping people who have PPA's. But if problems are caused by PPA stuff or there's explicit problem with stuff from PPA, then it gets hairy18:51
bazhangso what if Mintmenu is part of the PPA18:52
popeyFrom a personal perspective some of the work my team does at Canonical is put into PPAs. I'd be kinda annoyed if #ubuntu refuses to allow users to discover that work, by banning the primary method my team has to deliver it.18:52
LjLoCean: you have to rely on people's common sense a little. People can and will start recommending to do thing the "reasonable" way if we actively point out the issues when we encounter them in the channel. Ops are not just there to ban people, they're also there to give the channel a direction, and that not only by means of guidelines and meetings, but also by means of what they say in the channel day-to-day.18:52
tsimpsonPPAs are not the only thing that cause those problems, any non-Canonical repository could. should be ban anything that isn't 100% official (as defined by Canonical)?18:52
tsimpsonI don't see a solution, other than simply educating users18:52
PiciEducating our helpers will go a long way in getting people to understand the risks of PPAs and benefits of PPAs.18:53
tsimpsonmaybe someone messes things up, and they need to reinstall. we help them backup their data and get a working system again. they gain experience18:53
bazhangrelying on common sense when some users will not even read the channel topic18:53
oCeanbazhang: +118:54
LjLbazhang, oCean: if users are all idiots, then we might as well give up.18:54
LjLI thought the idea why we're still here is that we think they aren't.18:54
oCeanLjL: no, but we might try our best to limit them in the possiblities to ruin their systems18:54
AlanBellI kind of favour providing more information for people to make decisions about what they do with their systems18:54
bazhangI have no problem with Ubuntu being a rolling release distro, buts let be honest, thats what the floodgate of PPA is doing18:54
oCeanThat's why the rmrf command is an alias, right?18:54
PiciAgain, its not the users we need to convince, its our helpers.  The people who are there every day are the best people to educate about this sort of thing.  They'll do all the legwork when it comes to telling the users who can't manage to read our channel topic.18:55
popeyi disagree with bazhangs assertion18:55
bazhangthat did not highlight me18:55
oCeanPici: yes, but there are many "drive-by" helpers18:55
popeythere's a chasm between ubuntu plus a bunch of PPAs, and a rolling distro18:55
LjLoCean: but that command being an alias doesn't really stop them from doing on their systems what they need. Likewise, "sudo" instead of root doesn't, because they can do everything with "sudo". They simply CAN'T do everything by ONLY using the official repositories.18:55
tsimpsonit's not our place to decide what "users" should and should not be able to do with their system. we can warn, inform, and educate. but we can't tie their hand and stop them from doing what they choose to do18:55
LjLoCean: and there are many regular helpers and ops who will correct them.18:56
bazhangthere's a new kernel, I'm on Lucid, I want it18:56
AlanBellok, I wonder if we are going round in circles at this point, perhaps we should draw this topic to a close18:56
oCeanLjL: yes, sure. But would an explicit statement, more then just "not supported" be valuable?18:56
bazhanget voila there is a PPA for it18:56
funkyHatoCean: how is drive by helpers suggesting bad PPAs going to be stopped by banning suggesting PPAs?18:57
oCeanSo, if we're not about to say "don't use PPA's" we definitely need to be more explicit with that18:57
Picibazhang: And I'm sure that we'll all tell you that you're probably going to have issues with it, but you're going to install it anyway.18:57
LjLoCean: no, as it would completely destroy the possibility for experienced helpers to suggest reasonable PPAs when appropriate.18:57
oCeanfunkyHat: because then we would have means to tell them "please don't suggest ppa's"18:57
bazhangLjL, please explain where the reasonable PPA are18:57
phillwthere are some times when adding a PPA for a specific problem is warranted18:58
oCeanLjL: yes, that's true, that's what happens when one uses Ubuntu. Not everything is in the repositories18:58
LjLoCean: you can still tell them "please don't suggest PPAs without first having informed them about the software availability in the repositories, and without giving the due disclaimers about PPAs not being part of Ubuntu"18:58
bazhangthey all look good to me. and some are very very tempting to install to be honest18:58
LjLyou could always do that, it's always been done, with all things, even before PPAs existed18:58
oCeanRoot cause might be that the ubuntu distribution does not provide everything a users wishes. Too bad18:58
AlanBell#vote set a new policy to ask helpers to not recommend PPAs in #ubuntu18:58
meetingologyPlease vote on: set a new policy to ask helpers to not recommend PPAs in #ubuntu18:58
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)18:58
meetingology-1 received from AlanBell18:58
meetingology-1 received from funkyHat18:59
meetingology-1 received from Pici18:59
meetingologyVoting ended on: set a new policy to ask helpers to not recommend PPAs in #ubuntu18:59
meetingologyVotes for:0 Votes against:3 Abstentions:018:59
meetingologyMotion denied18:59
PiciPPAs are more accountable than random source packages out there as well.18:59
AlanBellok, I think we should focus on providing more information about the types of PPA out there18:59
Myrttiyou could have just vetoed on Snowball18:59
bazhangthat would be great. how to rate them19:00
popeyDo we have any stats for which PPAs are "bad" from #u experience?19:00
oCeanAll 11.000 of 'em :(19:00
bazhang10999 (handbrake is ok)19:00
AlanBell#topic Support in -offtopic? Background - oCean19:01
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Support in -offtopic? Background - oCean
oCeanAlso on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal19:01
funkyHatI seem to recall discussions about ppa ratings at least a year ago either on -devel@ or one of the launchpad lists... I wonder if there is progress19:01
oCeanThis is an other matter we discussed in -ops or -team, but I don't think there was consensus19:01
AlanBellyeah, and I have a mail from Mark that relates to this a little19:01
AlanBellso yesterday we discussed a separate topic of canonical sending people to #ubuntu to discuss the android hybrid thing19:02
AlanBellthat is going to be addressed, but one of the things from sabdfl's response was . . .19:02
AlanBell * if there is a better IRC channel for general "hello, I'm interested in X with Ubuntu, where should I go?", then let me know and I'll update the team to use that for the cases where they do judge the audience to be developer or at least highly technical in nature.19:03
AlanBellis #ubuntu-offtopic that place?19:03
PiciOr at least not in -offtopic's current state.19:03
bazhang#ubuntu-phone ?19:03
AlanBellI didn't think so either, is there a place for it?19:03
Myrttibazhang: not really19:03
Tm_Tbazhang: that's not general channel (:19:03
Tm_TAlanBell: -irc?19:04
AlanBellbazhang: it is plausibly a reasonable place for it in this specific instance, but Mark was asking in general terms19:04
Tm_Tshortly put, we currently don't have such place19:04
bazhangAlanBell, ok19:04
PiciI don't think we currently have a place, and if we want to, we need the participation of our developers to make it work.19:05
ikoniasorry - but what is the point of sending people to a channel with no info ?19:05
Tm_Tikonia: a very good point19:05
LjLPici: yes, sabdfl can't just expect us to come up with places to discuss things nobody knows about out of a hat19:05
ikonia"hi I'm interested" - ok "sit there in this dead channel...."19:05
ikoniawhy not ask people to subscibe to an announce mail list so they get news when there is news19:05
Myrttiikonia: zombie channel is more to the point19:05
Myrttior undead19:05
Piciikonia: People want to interact and ask questions.19:06
Myrttiit's worse than dead, it's just users pingponging questions and rumours around, possibly making things worse than if there were no such discussion at all19:06
ikoniabut there is no answer19:06
ikoniaHi, tell me more about this product"19:06
ikoniaThere is nothing to tell19:06
ikoniawhy can't we say "there is nothing to tell at this time, subscribe to the accounce mailing list"19:06
ikoniawhy point people to a channel full of nothing19:06
PiciAgain, we would need the people in-the-know to be present before we could tell users to go there.19:07
AlanBellwell they are going to stop doing that19:07
PiciUnless the tech board (or whatever) wants us to start funneling into -devel to ask questions, I don't see another way of fixing this.19:07
Tm_T"if there is a better IRC channel for general "hello, I'm interested in X with Ubuntu, where should I go?", then let me know"19:07
Piciand I dont want to point people to -devel19:08
AlanBellin fact, this wasn't really a private email, you might as well see all of it19:08
Tm_Tthat is question we can figure out an answer19:08
AlanBell-devel don't know about it either19:08
ikoniajust feed back to canonical "IRC is useless without information, I suggest setting up a mailing list for people to subscrive to so you can make an annoucment when you have something to announce"19:08
AlanBellikonia: I did, basically19:08
Tm_Tso let's keep "discussion of nonexistant products" issue separate from general place-to-go channel issue19:08
LjLI have to go now. I just wanted to say about #ubuntu-offtopic that I don't think we should have a "no support" policy because EVEN WITHOUT having such a policy yet, I've already seen people going to extremes by shutting discussions down as they were remotely support-like. #ubuntu-offtopic shouldn't discourage talking about Ubuntu. Instead, let the people there NICELY suggest "have you tried asking in #ubuntu?", let's enforce a stricter "no repeating"19:09
LjLrule than in #ubuntu, and let's not allow banned people to obtain support in #ubuntu-offtopic.19:09
h00k^ I concur with this19:09
AlanBellyeah, I agree with not supporting banned people, certainly19:09
ikoniaAlanBell and the response i better than I understood when you mentioned it, so thank you19:09
PiciI don't think I understand what you just said ikonia, but okay ;)19:10
AlanBellI think #ubuntu-offtopic should be the place for discussion about ubuntu that isn't support, or we should have #ubuntu-discuss or #ubuntu-chat or something for that19:10
ikoniaPici: it was in relation to the android email19:10
ikoniaAlanBell: I've aksed for this many times and it's just a non-starter19:10
MyrttiI've grown to dislike -offtopic as a channel name19:12
ikoniaAlanBell: people want -offtopic to be random stuff19:12
ikoniato do what ever you feel like saying inside the !o4o and !coc guidelines19:12
Tm_Tthat's what "offtopic" means?19:13
ikoniaI wanted to bring the offtopic channels together and have a bit of community discussion around ubuntu as a project19:13
ikoniatechnical/non-technical, just "stuff"19:13
PiciAs much as the channel sometimes annoys me, I think that -offtopic is fine and another Ubuntu-centric discussion channel would be better.19:13
Silverlionfolks: wouldn't it be better to have just ONE Offtopic chan?19:13
ikoniarather than having 4 - 5 offtopic channels of people just saying words19:13
Silverlionlike the community cafe on the forums?19:13
PiciSilverlion: IRC can't be separated into threads like forums can.19:13
PiciNot without creating separate channels19:14
h00k#ubuntu-ubuntu-discussion, #ubuntu-what-you-had-for-lunch, #ubuntu-break-from-support,19:14
funkyHatPeople like their spaces, and having more than one offtopic channel doesn't seem to be hurting19:14
Tm_TSilverlion: one?19:14
bazhangh00k, heh19:14
Myrttior going to the other direction - #x-ot, #k-ot, #u-ot, #l-ot19:14
Myrttishould there be ONE CHAN TO RULE THEM ALL?19:14
tsimpsonthe point of offtopic is that it's not one topic, it's the exception to the "an IRC channel has a specific topic" rule19:14
SilverlionTm_T: i wanted to "melt" the -offtopic chans together and name it "community cafe"19:15
Picitsimpson: good point.19:15
ikoniafunkyHat: it's also not building anything, there are people spread out in each channel that are "quality" yet there have little to say mixed in with people just saying radonom stuff19:15
ikoniatsimpson: there should be tons of topics, fully agree19:15
AlanBellok, some interesting suggestions there, but I think we are not going to make any decisions on this today19:16
h00kIt's nice to have a place to talk about $stuff, and not $ubuntu-stuff all the time,19:16
Silverlionthat way we do have a better overview and can create some community feeling19:16
Picih00k: +1019:16
h00kwhich is nice to take a break from #ubuntu in there, but also included are people who don't help19:16
Tm_TSilverlion: not going to happen, it's been considered for years, and see where we are (:19:16
phillwthe -ot channels are already the cafe for each group?19:16
PiciSilverlion: I've suggested that before, it didn't go over well. (although that was a lonjg time ago)19:16
* popey returns to see #ubuntu-phone stuff19:17
pangolinI don't see why -offtopic can't have multiple topics going on at the same time. Just like in #ubuntu where you don't answer every questions asked.19:17
* popey would like to help fix the issues there. Suggestions welcome.19:17
AlanBellpopey: get the people who know what they are talking about to engage with the channel19:17
AlanBellyeah, I know that might not be possible19:18
popeythe problem there is that #ubuntu-phone was never supposed to be for the current announced convergence device19:19
tsimpsonwe do have a (dead) #ubuntu-mobile going unused19:19
popeyit was meant for discussion of a phone running ubuntu19:19
AlanBellyes, we do appreciate that19:19
popeynot the converged device that you've been talking about19:19
Silverliondo we need to channels to discuss topics that should be discussed here?19:19
popeyso directing people there means they dont actually get to talk to the 'right people'19:19
AlanBellpopey: did you see the email that is going out to people who register an interest in the hybrid thing?19:19
popeyi only saw your pastebin above19:20
Myrttipopey: but it was the best channel for example I could think out quickly when people started asking about "where can I discuss"19:20
popeyMyrtti: sure, i appreciate that19:20
h00kso, before I forget, where are we with -offtopic?19:20
AlanBellpopey: http://paste.ubuntu.com/858223/19:20
popeyok, and mark has said that will be fixed?19:21
AlanBellpopey: yes, I brought it up here because mark was asking about a general channel to send people to for discussions19:21
Picipopey: Since you're more on the developer side of things for this, would you prefer users/power users/non-ubuntu developers dropping in on a team channel (like -devel, -kernel -x, whathaveyou) or a separate technically focussed discussion channel?19:21
PiciPurely for asking questions about new ubuntu tech, not tech support.19:22
popeywell, i setup -phone, -tablet and -tv for exactly that kind of thing19:22
oCeanh00k: :) Yeah, I raised two points: 1) don't shut down support questions, just suggest a regular support chan might be more appropriate 2) don't support banned users in -ot19:23
popeyI'm happy for people to ping me in those channels if there are questions that have not been answered19:23
popeyand would like to help create a FAQ for each to help direct people to the 'right' answers19:23
popeywould that help?19:23
AlanBellit would, yes19:23
Picipopey: And if those channels already have developers who are willing to answer user questions present, then I think we just need to work out a way to publicize those channels.19:24
popeythey do19:24
h00kalso, operators there?19:24
popey-tv has had lots of discussion with the guys who actually wrote it19:24
PiciI think we sorted out some of the op stuff the other day.19:24
AlanBellok, lets deal with the specific points oCean raised in this topic19:26
AlanBell1) don't shut down support questions, just suggest a regular support chan might be more appropriate19:26
oCean just suggest *that*19:27
AlanBell2) don't support banned users in -ot (which is a sensible exception/enhancement to #1)19:27
bazhangincluding crossposting?19:27
oCeanbazhang: crossposting should be avoided19:27
bazhangI post in #ubuntu , wait 2 mins, then to -ot19:28
PiciI think the only time where it is reasonable for support to be answered in -ot is when a user casually mentions some annoyance and someone has an idea to fix it.19:28
bazhangthere are often jokey answers when support is asked in -ot19:29
tsimpsonwell "support" is such a wide subject that it's difficult to simply say "no support questions"19:29
AlanBellI am struggling to figure out what change is being requested here, it seems like a request for a common sense approach19:29
Tm_TAlanBell: that, there's currently no common sense applied consistently as far as I can see19:30
Tm_T"no support" is slapped hardhandedly occasionally19:30
oCeanthere is actually support in -ot, for example on subjects which are offtopic for #u, but as soon as someone asks an ubuntu question, we jump on him saying "don't ask support here"19:30
Tm_ToCean: yeah, soft redirect is better approach when its reasonable in the first place19:31
oCeanI'll say after LjL "let the people there NICELY suggest "have you tried asking in #ubuntu?", let's enforce a stricter "no repeating"19:31
AlanBellmaybe this should be something added to the supporters guide, what to do if someone asks a question in the wrong channel19:31
ikoniaoCean but there also has to be common sense the other way19:32
ikoniaoCean: users like bullgard who just don't want to play by the rules use -offtopic as #ubuntu19:32
ikoniaI have no issue with support discussion in #ubuntu-offtopic, it would be a welcome uplift from random stuff19:33
phillwwhilst we are the new kids on the block, maybe some thing like Welcome to the general chat area | Please use #lubuntu for support | ?19:33
ikoniabut I think if we have a support channel, guiding users to it for support is the better option for proper "I need help" issues19:33
oCeanikonia: true. We should be stricter, especially with such users19:33
AlanBelloCean: perhaps you could add some bits to the guide advising helpers how to deal with support requests in offtopic channels19:33
ikoniaoCean: a better balance to actually help support discussion, while "questions" or specific issues can be guided to the support channel19:33
oCeanAlanBell: fine with me19:34
AlanBellare there any factoids that might need changing?19:34
Myrtti90 minutes mark btw19:34
Tm_TMyrtti: halfway then (:19:34
ikoniawhat's the point of having a support channel to use offtopic and an offtopic channel to not do support, to be asked support questions19:34
AlanBell#action oCean to edit the guide to add advice on support questions in -offtopic19:34
meetingologyACTION: oCean to edit the guide to add advice on support questions in -offtopic19:34
AlanBellMyrtti: yes, I am aware, the last bits won't take long at all19:34
MyrttiAlanBell: I know you are aware, just reminding others ;-)19:34
AlanBellok, next item we have already addressed19:35
tsimpsonhmm, actually there probably should be a "Support questions in #ubuntu" in the -ot topic19:35
AlanBell#topic Ops applications from existing ops - Alan Bell19:35
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ops applications from existing ops - Alan Bell
tsimpsonI though it was there, but apparently not19:35
AlanBellwe are going to deal with that, moving straight on19:35
AlanBell#topic Supporters Guide document - Alan Bell19:35
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Supporters Guide document - Alan Bell
ikoniatsimpson: I'll fix now19:35
AlanBellwe put this together this week, still accepting edits and improvements, an email went to the list about it19:36
phillwan excellent resource. thanks for making it.19:36
oCeanikonia, tsimpson we might consider the wording, since "support in #u" does shut down the possibility for a question in -ot19:36
AlanBellI think a factoid pointing at it would be a good idea, we can try and come up with one later (not right now)19:36
LjLthe #ubuntu-offtopic topic already had "non-support" in it19:36
LjLwhy the need for this stronger wording19:37
ikoniaoCean: check topic now19:37
LjLwhen many are saying here we should have all BUT a stronger thing against support there19:37
AlanBelland we should probably blog about the supporters guide so planet readers see it (yes jussi, I know)19:37
oCeanikonia: I saw it, fine with me now19:37
AlanBellthanks ikonia :)19:37
ikoniaLjL: hopefully nothing too harsh in there now, just a little more clarify ?19:37
AlanBellok, thats all I want to say on the supporters guide for now19:37
ikoniaclarity even19:38
AlanBell#topic Any Other Business19:38
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
AlanBelldoes anyone have any other burning topics (I know we are over time)19:38
MyrttiI'm still writing the ops guide...19:38
Myrttibrain turns into mush.19:38
Tm_TI had something in mind, but as usual, have forgotten it already /:19:38
PiciI think we'll need to go back and discuss some of these other issues at a later time, but that was rather obvious anyway.19:38
AlanBellMyrtti: can we decide a date (I don't want you spending too much time on it)19:38
LjLikonia: so now let's expect some people to say "NO GO AWAY SUPPORT IN #ubuntu" even louder than before.19:38
ikoniaLjL: hopefully not19:38
PiciWe'll face that when we see it.19:39
Tm_TLjL: "support questions might be better served in #u" ...lenghty one but softer tone /:19:39
MyrttiAlanBell: you're allowed to kick me about it on Wednesday, if I'm not done by then, I give up and let someone else continue on writing it.19:39
Myrttiit's in Etherpad and I'll toss the link around for a selected few then19:39
Myrttieither way19:40
AlanBellcan't possibly kick you, but will tickle you on wednesday :)19:40
Tm_TMyrtti: let me know if you need any help19:40
AlanBellok, any more . . .19:40
MyrttiTm_T: you I might poke with the URL in the next half hour19:40
AlanBellnext meeting will be on a week day evening in a couple of weeks19:41
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Sun Feb 26 19:41:15 2012 UTC.19:41
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-26-18.03.moin.txt19:41
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-26-18.03.html19:41
AlanBellthanks all, sorry it was a bit long :)19:41
phillwThanks for chairing AlanBell19:41
ikoniaI'd rather it was long for an actual discussion that cutting things off19:41
phillwikonia: +119:42
funkyHatThanks everyone19:42
Silverlionthx Alan19:44
=== Ursinha_ is now known as Guest39454
=== Tonio__ is now known as Tonio_

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!