pbuckleypbuckley@panda:~/thrift$ apt-cache search libtoolize00:55
pbuckleyis this expected?00:55
infinitypbuckley: Yes, there's no such package.00:57
infinitypbuckley: You're looking for libtool.00:57
infinitypbuckley: And possibly also autoconf and automake.00:58
pbuckleythank you00:58
infinitypbuckley: (note that command-not-found would have told you)00:58
infinityadconrad@cthulhu:~$ libtoolize00:58
infinityThe program 'libtoolize' is currently not installed.  You can install it by typing:00:58
infinitysudo apt-get install libtool00:58
pbuckleyill be sure to check there in the future00:58
pbuckleyi rely a little to much on apt i suppose00:59
GrueMasterActually, infinity that doesn't work for me on a fresh netboot install with basic server and ssh server installed.01:14
twbinfinity: you can turn that off per-user if you want01:15
twb # Ignore Ubuntu's attempt to slow exit(126) to a crawl.01:15
twb unset command_not_found_handle01:15
twb...in .shrc or .bashrc, whichever you use01:15
lilstevietwb, but the average user does not01:29
twbSure, which is why I don't simply uninstall that package from shared systems01:30
twbBut I didn't read enough of the scrollback, and misunderstood what infinity was getting at01:30
lilsteviefair enoug01:31
=== zumbi is now known as Guest40451
pbuckleyout of curiosity, why is there no thrift ubuntu package?02:32
GrueMasterpbuckley: Erm, what is it?02:35
pbuckleyThrift is a software framework for scalable cross-language services development. It combines a software stack with a code generation engine to build services that work efficiently and seamlessly between C++, Java, Python, PHP, Ruby, Erlang, Perl, Haskell, C#, Cocoa, JavaScript, Node.js, Smalltalk, and OCaml.02:35
GrueMasterYea, reading the web site now.  Not sure, but it is probably one of those things that slipped under the radar.  We can't always package everything out there.  You can, and propose it for universe.02:37
steev_mmm, rsyslog doesn't actually appear to... log02:37
twbI think you missed a couple of buzzwords02:37
steev_at least, i don't have the usual suspects in /var/log02:37
twbsteev_: is it running?  Do you have an entry like "*.* /var/log/foo" in your rsyslog.conf / .conf.d/*.conf ?02:38
twbWikipedia's definition is: Apache Thrift, a remote procedure call (RPC) framework developed at Facebook for "scalable cross-language services development".02:38
steev_twb: whatever is default in precise, i tend to not mess around with the default ubuntu configs, it always seems to break things02:38
pbuckleyits a requirement for scribe02:38
pbuckleywhich is also awesome02:38
twbsteev_: should work then, although I haven't checked precise it shouldn't be much different from oneiric and lucid02:39
steev_pgrep rsyslog returns 825, and ls /var/log is at http://paste.ubuntu.com/86000002:40
twbsteev_: you have log entries there, so what's the big deal02:41
steev_looking at 50-default.conf it looks like the usual suspects are commented out02:41
steev_twb: no messages, no daemon or cron.log02:41
steev_are they commented out on purpose on arm?02:42
twbAFAIK no, but I'm no expert02:42
infinityYou don't have these two?02:43
infinityauth,authpriv.*                 /var/log/auth.log02:43
infinity*.*;auth,authpriv.none          -/var/log/syslog02:43
infinity(And a few others)02:43
steev_http://paste.ubuntu.com/860004 is the 50-default.conf02:45
steev_messages is deprecated then? and everything should point at syslog?02:45
GrueMastersteev_: Yes.  It has been that way for a while on ubuntu.02:46
GrueMaster(I can't even remember seeing a messages log in Ubuntu).02:46
steev_ah, okay, good to know.  messages is standard on... pretty much every distro, that i knew of.  and it existed around maverick and i'm pretty sure i had it back when i had natty installed on my amd64 box02:47
GrueMasterOops.  I take it back.  My lucid system still spews in /var/log/messages.02:48
GrueMasterI think we switched in either Natty or Oneiric.02:49
GrueMasterI don't have a natty system running atm, but my oneiric box shows no signs of a messages log.02:49
GrueMasterAnd my maverick systems do.02:49
GrueMaster(they're stable to the point I never bother to look at the logs, hence why I missed it).02:50
pbuckley# ls messages02:50
pbuckleyls: cannot access messages: No such file or directory02:50
pbuckleylikewise for precise02:51
infinityThere was no point in duplicating everything across multiple logs.02:52
infinityPeople who want fine-grained control and splitting can, but it disn't make sense as a default, so we stopped.02:53
twb13:50 <pbuckley> ls: cannot access messages: No such file or directory02:53
twbThat's because Ubuntu is not RHEL02:53
twbThe main logs are /var/log/syslog and /var/log/auth.log; by default all logs passing through syslog(3) should land in at least one of those.02:54
steev_infinity: i'm fine, syslog seems to == what i was looking for02:54
twbSorry, I didn't twig that you were expecting RH-flavoured log file names02:55
infinitytwb: Well, to be fair, that used to be pretty standard everywhere. :P02:56
infinityBut yeah, like I said, we came to the conclusion that duplicating everything was just silly in the default setup.02:56
twbinfinity: sorry, I'm too young to remember system 3 and V02:58
steev_oh how i wish i was that young03:20
twbsteev_: still got your copy of Lion's ? :-)03:25
steev_sorry, I don't know what that means.  As someone who grew up in Detroit, any time someone mentions Lions, all I can think is football03:26
twbtextbook from UNSW, first easy access to Unix source code03:26
steev_ahh, i'm not *that* old :)03:28
twbHum.  I didn't think sys3 was much younger...03:32
twbWow, that's listed as 199603:34
twbAh, that's a reprint03:34
twbResearch Unix V6 was 1975; Lions was 1976, ... System III was 1982, SysV was 1983. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_V03:36
steev_surprisingly few crashes06:18
steev_twb: ah, so lions was printed the year before i was born.  i didn't get into computers til i was 5 :(06:18
=== doko_ is now known as doko
ogra_janimo`, hmm, seems the camera doesnt work anymore in the latest precise image (led switches on, but it only takes black pics in the installer)12:26
janimo`ogra_, is this with yesterday's kernel upload?12:27
janimo`I know I had gst-properties work with the 1.2 kernel12:27
janimo`not sure I tried with 2.112:27
janimo`I hope webcam is not at odds with the bluetooth headset requirements12:27
ogra_not sure it made it onto the image yet ... i'll try to upgrade once the installer finished12:27
ogra_it shouldnt12:28
janimo`I only uploaded meta this morning12:28
janimo`so may not have made it , no idea12:28
ogra_ah, k, then its likely not in the img12:28
ogra_there is a rebuild running right now though12:28
ogra_that might pick it up12:28
janimo`could be a userland issue. I know at one point the ubiquity part worked but cheese did not12:29
ogra_right, i will test after the install is done12:30
ogra_its already removing packages12:30
ogra_janimo`, hmm, the cam works with gstreamer-properties12:46
ogra_so it must be an ubiquity thing12:46
janimo`ogra_, so ubiquity/oem cfg issue or bad timing12:46
ogra_or even fbdev12:46
janimo`ev or other working on ubiquity would know if anything changed recently in that area12:47
janimo`or maybe the logs even show some ENODEV type errors12:47
janimo`and really, is firefox that good already on arm? I still have chromium installed but do not use the ac100 much12:48
ogra_well, for me on armel FF is faster12:48
ogra_it starts faster and renders faster12:48
ogra_and i can easily open 20 tabs without ram issues12:49
ogra_geeez !12:49
janimo`if chromium did not slow down that is indeed good news12:49
ogra_pulling out the SD while being in initrd made the kernel freak out12:49
ogra_hmm, NM misbehaves12:55
ogra_it worked fine during install, weird12:56
ogra_hmpf, i see firmware errors13:14
* ogra_ installs libO for a test13:42
janimo`ogra_, how's libo? I completely forgot to actually test the deb on armhf14:31
ogra_runs fine14:31
ogra_no probs with it at all :)14:31
* ogra_ found another issue though ... not libO related 14:31
ogra_somehow ac100 ends up with a bunch of kde bits installed ... while all other arm images dont14:32
ogra_the only difference between the images are jasper vs ac100-tarball-installer ... but they have similar deps14:32
RiddellGrueMaster: well if I don't even have a power supply it's not going to work right?16:26
Riddellwhere do I buy a power supply?16:26
GrueMasterDo you have a USB Y cable?16:26
Riddellumm what's one of those?16:26
GrueMasterIt doesn't take 3-4 amps to power on the board and run a desktop image.16:27
GrueMasterThey are the cables that ship with external usb drives.16:27
RiddellGrueMaster: http://htc-linux.org/wiki/images/6/64/Usb-y-power-cable.jpg ?16:28
GrueMasterI've done some power measurements here, and under load running the lamp stack, the highest power load was 1.5A with drive.16:28
GrueMasterThat is the cable.16:29
Riddellumm what plugs in where with that?16:29
GrueMasterThe two large plugs go to a pc or laptop or powered USB hub.  The mini plug goes in the panda.16:30
Riddellthat image shows two USB male plugs and one USB female, all large16:31
GrueMasterYou should be able to get HDMI & USB keyboard/mouse.  What you probably won't get is wifi, bluetooth, video acceleration, and addon board power.16:31
GrueMasterWoa, didn't see the other end.  A USB Mini cable should plug off of that then.  If you have that cable.16:32
RiddellGrueMaster: ok I have a cable which is usb male to usb mini male so that plugs into my laptop and the pandaboard16:34
Riddelland I even get a green LED turning on16:34
GrueMasterIt needs to be a y cable.  Not sure a single USB port will supply enough power.16:35
Riddelloh so it needs two usb male to plug into my laptop and a usb mini to plug into the panda?16:37
RiddellGrueMaster: ok they'll go on the shopping list16:38
Riddellwhat else do I need?16:38
RiddellSD Card?  what size?16:38
RiddellHDMI to VGA?16:38
GrueMasterSD card.  4G or better.  Class 10 preferable.16:39
GrueMasterThere is no HDMI to VGA.  HDMI is digital, VGA is analog.  You can get converters, but monitors are just as cheap.16:39
Riddelloh, so no easy way to get it to work with my vga monitor?16:40
GrueMasterNot that I know of.16:40
Riddellok that puts a stopped in my plan16:41
RiddellI need to ask jason if I can expense an HDMI monitor then16:41
GrueMasterDoes your monitor do DVI?16:43
GrueMasterRiddell: ^^^16:44
RiddellVGA only16:45
GrueMasterTime for a new monitor anyways then.  But you can convert hdmi to dvi.16:45
GrueMasterDVI supports bot analog & digital signals.16:46
GrueMasterBestbuy lists monitors for under $100 that have VGA/DVI that will work.  I'm sure Amazon does too.  Your local shops should also carry them.16:48
prpplaguersalveti: know anyone on the linaro samsung landing team?17:28
rsalvetiprpplague: not from top of my head, would need to check the team17:39
rsalvetiguess nobody is around at irc17:39
prpplagueyea seems so17:40
rsalvetibut you can simply mail linaro-dev@lists.linaro.org if there's something you want the lt to read17:40
GrueMasterinfinity: Can you ping me on #arm?  Not sure if the connection is still up.18:02
infinityGrueMaster: I would if you were there.18:03
GrueMasterHmmm.  Nothing here to indicate a dropped connection, except silence.18:04
GrueMasterReally hate that.18:04
infinityDown with Quassel, up with irssi? :)18:05
prasanaWhat do you guys think are the benefits of running ubuntu's new idea of running ubuntu on android18:58
GrueMasterFor phones that are designed for it, it makes an excellent platform for doing presentations and stuff.19:03
GrueMasterLot more portable than a laptop or tablet.19:03
GrueMasterFor example, I have this keyboard, and if I had that phone, I could go to a trade show (or any other forum) and do a presentation literally out of pocket (if the forum had a screen).19:06
NekoXPit's a shame it's only for systems like that Motorola thing where it docks into the back of a laptop shell19:11
NekoXPand that already happened, it's a product shipping already..19:11
GrueMasterThe demo I saw had a simple dock that had usb & HDMI out (plus charging capabilities).  The doc was smaller than the phone.19:12
NekoXPit's a fucking lovely idea, shame basically nobody cares19:13
GrueMasterThe laptop dock is just one example.19:13
GrueMasterThis is what I'm talking about.19:14
NekoXPagain, I doubt anybody really cares about this kind of functionality.. part of the problem is having "full firefox" doesn't make much sense at that level, presentation software is going to suck somewhat, while you can do what they're doing (run something in a chroot in Android), it means you're going to lack all the integration from Android to phone except for "the sd card is linked in to the chroot so I can read the presentation on Ope19:16
NekoXPnOffice as well as in the Android document reader".. if you wanted to do a presentation out of pocket a better idea would be to have proper presentation software for Android, unless your goal was to edit it at the last minute between puling it out of pocket and doing the presentation19:16
NekoXPat which point you probably had your laptop with you anyway and you can tether it to your phone19:17
NekoXPconvergence only works if people don't have the things you're trying to converge already and rely on them19:17
NekoXPplus: Apple doesn't need a "full Firefox, Linux OS" on their iPad or iPhone, and all told, Atrix stuff isn't any cheaper than either Apple product :)19:18
GrueMasterOh really?  Then what's the point of having a smart phone in the first place?19:18
NekoXPcertainly not to do work.19:19
GrueMasterEspecially if you already have your laptop?19:19
NekoXPI use it to browse email, occasionally check facebook, play WWF or Angry Birds, and it's very very handy for Skype19:19
NekoXPit also has a camera19:20
NekoXPand is an mp3 player19:20
GrueMasterAll things you can just do on your laptop.19:20
NekoXPwhat, take a family photo on my VAIO?19:20
NekoXPor go running with it strapped to my back? it's 12lbs...19:20
GrueMasterBut, can your laptop fit in your pocket for when you need to travel for a presentation?19:20
NekoXPno but I tend to travel with a little more than a pair of underwear stuffed in my jacket pocket just in case. I have a bag for all this stuff19:21
GrueMasterThe point is, not everyone will want this.  hell, a lot of people don't even have cell phones, let alone smart phones.19:21
NekoXPthe sales of the lapdock and even the atrix dock have been slow at best...19:22
GrueMasterI do know of several people where this would make more sense than lugging a laptop, even a small netbook.19:22
NekoXPI don't care what verizon says, having a tablet doesn't mean your 7 year old kid can open a lemonade business19:22
GrueMasterAgain, early market, and not for everyone.19:23
NekoXPtablet market has basically bottomed out already because it's not about having a tablet, but about having an iPad or a Kindle. If you're not one of those people don't look at you in the store.19:23
NekoXPwhat makes people want those is iTunes or Amazon, it isn't running presentations at work.19:24
GrueMasterI remember an excellent quote from the guys that created the ascii art driver for quake 2 that applies here:  If you have to ask why, this isn't for you.19:24
NekoXPI know why, I also know why the number of people who want it doesn't make a market19:25
GrueMasterI wonder if Steve Jobs had this argument before coming out with the ipod or the iphone?19:25
GrueMasterYou are essentially arguing chicken/egg theory.19:26
NekoXPno, because Steve Jobs said "it has iTunes, it could be a sheet of glass with a smiley face painted in dog turd on it, but people would still buy it, so make it"19:26
NekoXPand he was right.. that sheet of glass smeared in dog turd eclipses every other tablet on the market despite almost identical features, because they don't sell tablets, they sell iPads19:27
NekoXPto people who already have a MacBook and an iPod.19:27
NekoXPputting Ubuntu on it doesn't make it replace your laptop, it's just not the same thing.19:28
GrueMasterThat's one point of view.19:29
GrueMasterBut the same argument could be made about other products, like this:http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika19:29
NekoXPit's even not the same thing if they come out with Windows Phone 8 and put Windows 8 ARM on it so you can dock it and use it like a real computer. It's just not what people want out of a phone, that level of convergence doesn't appeal to anyone.19:29
NekoXPGrueMaster, yeah, we know19:29
NekoXPnetbooks are a fucking abysmal idea, it turns out.19:30
NekoXPwe got there fairly early and found nobody else could even make it work19:30
GrueMasterOnly because Microsoft killed the market.19:30
NekoXPnot even Canonical19:30
NekoXPwith what?19:30
NekoXPpeople don't buy Atom netbooks either, or they wouldn't be being refurbed and sold at half price everywhere. the number of returns is staggering.19:30
GrueMasterThey killed the x86 netbook market.19:31
GrueMasterThe hardware costs have such little return that manufacturers couldn't make money off of them.  Then MS told them their specs were not adequate and made a set of requirements to run Windows.19:32
GrueMaster(which really sucks on these btw.  I have one).19:32
NekoXPI think Intel did more than Microsoft for that by making a chipset which had too high expectations of power consumption with very little in the way of performance19:32
NekoXPI have 3 of the damn things.19:32
NekoXPone of them bought specifically because it had *TWO* SD card slots, I use it for copying them and imaging19:33
GrueMasterNot sure on that.  My Acer Aspire One has 4.5 hours of battery life under Ubuntu.19:33
GrueMaster(the Intel reference).19:33
NekoXPmine too but it does have a 6-cell battery and weighs 4lbs19:34
NekoXPthey're not light enough, not fast enough, and at full price you may as well get a 15" Dell Inspiron19:34
GrueMasterGranted, it isn't as good as my AC100 in weight or battery life, but out of the box it performs better.19:35
GrueMasterI keep it because the size is right for me.  I could have bought a new laptop this year, but for me, I didn't see the benefit.19:35
NekoXPI tested that and basically figured it's down to really awesome graphics drivers on the Atom, and the actual hard disk instead of the SSD which is frankly not as good as it sounded19:36
GrueMasterI have a powerful desktop with easy remote access for heavy lifting, and I don't play games enough to justify anything else.19:36
NekoXPyeah I have an xbox19:36
NekoXPand I use my VAIO for compiling, on Ubuntu, in VMware (on Windows 7)19:36
NekoXPand all the other things like writing docs, generating decent PDFs, Photoshop, managing the servers at work (exporting a VM is really cpu intensive apparently)19:37
GrueMasterI use windows in a VM to test win32-imagewriter and taxes.  Nothing else.19:37
NekoXPas far as I'm concerned any netbook that doesn't perform like a Core i3 and look like a MacBook Air 11" isn't going to go anywhere.19:39
NekoXPend of the year that product may actually be something someone can actually make, but convincing them to use Linux or Android is a hard sell, I'm glad for Windows 8 since it might actually give us a viable market to hit19:40
GrueMasterAgain, usage model.19:41
NekoXPthere's always been and always will be a market for nettops, which is great19:41
NekoXPeven if they're not on the desktop and just being used to back digital signage or some university project19:41
GrueMasterAnd cracking Microsofts monopoly is extremely difficult when thy don't play fair.19:41
NekoXPMS don't so much have a monopoly so much as have the best tool for the job19:42
GrueMasterErm, sure.19:43
NekoXPI would agree that in certain respects they are a glistening, glittery poop in a field of less glittery, far stinkier poops. But if you are forced to buy a poop at least get the gold plated one.19:43
navalny_mudakdid anyone use ubuntu on lenovo k1?19:44
NekoXPthe gold might be worth something :)19:44
GrueMasterI used to own a computer business (before I even knew Linux).  They are very manipulative of the market.19:44
NekoXPeh.. it's not just Microsoft who do that, I can name a certain astronaut millionaire who doesn't play fair either19:45
infinityNekoXP: They may or may not have the best tool for the job, but when you can't buy 99% of the PC hardware on the market without an OS, I call that a forced monopoly.19:45
NekoXPnot forced by Microsoft, though - forced by the market19:45
infinityNekoXP: I'm not even saying I want Ubuntu preinstalled (I don't care), but I *must* buy a copy of Windows just to get the hardware I want.19:45
NekoXPif you ship a laptop with no Windows on it, people send it back19:46
infinityNekoXP: Not forced by MS is pretty much a lie.  Vendors get lots of incentives to do it this way.19:46
NekoXPgiven that the cost of Windows basically doesn't even factor in to the cost of your laptop given the licensing deals OEMs do on their hardware, you're not actually getting a bad deal, although they will "refund" you if you ask19:46
GrueMasterI think http://www.system76.com/ would argue that.19:46
NekoXPthat's called volume licensing, and it's not an unfair model19:46
infinity"forced" is a strong word, perhaps, but nothing in financial markets is "forced" so much as "coerced".19:46
infinityNekoXP: "volume licensing" shouldn't define what you do with all your hardware.19:47
NekoXPno, what customers WANT is what defines what they do with it19:47
infinityNekoXP: And "they will refund if you ask" is also a whole lot more effort than people claim it is (and often just plain not true).19:47
NekoXPMicrosoft use the fact that everyone WANTS windows, whether they know it or not (usually by the disappointment when it boots Fedora Core instead), will not buy a laptop that doesn't come with Windows or MacOS19:48
GrueMasterCustomers want working systems.  When given no options, they go with the only choice.19:48
NekoXPDell do ship Ubuntu, but those people who are gullible enough to be pulled into the fallacy of choice of operating system don't make up anything approaching a significant market19:49
infinityNekoXP: So, your contention is that when purchasing from someone who lets you tailor a system online, offering a "No Operating System preinstalled" option would be against customers' wishes, because they might accidentally click that instead of the (presumably default) "Windows 7 64-bit Preinstalled"?19:49
GrueMasterBest Buy even has agreements with Microsoft to only sell Windows based systems.  Microsoft allowed them to carry Apple only to not monopolize the market.19:49
NekoXPinfinity, no, I would say offering it by default with "No OS installed" would be against their wishes19:50
rbasakDon't preinstalled crapware companies also subsidize desktop computer prices? No OS == no crapware == no subsidy == more expensive desktop.19:50
infinityNekoXP: I wasn't talking defaults, just options.  You tell me that I don't actually want options.19:50
NekoXPoffering it with "Ubuntu Linux 12.04" by default would also not be the default option most people would pick when shopping for a laptop19:50
NekoXPI'm all for options19:50
GrueMasterFor someone that sells linux based systems, you don't make a very good convincing argument.19:51
NekoXPyou check the sales figures and see a hundred million Windows devices sold and 100,000 Ubuntu devices sold for the same product and you think.. that's 0.1% of the market, the default should be Windows19:51
infinityrbasak: And yet, I'd still pay a tiny premium to know that none of my purchase price is going to a product (Windows) that I won't be using.19:51
NekoXPwe don't HAVE a choice19:51
NekoXPWindows doesn't exist for the systems we make, but if it did, we'd sell the shit out of it19:52
infinityNekoXP: Erm.  Those numbers are meaningless, given that people don't have the choice to purchase most hardware without Windows.19:52
NekoXPeveryone has the choice, GrueMaster just showed a link for it, there was a court precedent allowing users to get a "refund" for the cost of Windows on their device if they didn't actually want it...19:53
rbasakinfinity: yeah - I hate that the figures get skewed by Windows being mandatory in the purchase price.19:53
infinityNekoXP: Have you ever tried to reclaim your Windows license cost?19:53
NekoXPthat doesn't change that the actual cost to the user for a "Windows license", that sticker on the back of the laptop, and the preinstallation of a partition taking up 10% of your disk space, actually costs the user absolutely nothing19:53
GrueMasterNekoXP: yes, but you also forget that Microsoft also manipulates the hardware market to only support Windows.19:54
NekoXPinfinity, yeah I did it twice19:54
infinityNekoXP: I know people who've been in mail-and-phone back-and-forth for well over a year trying to get their silly 50 bucks back.19:54
GrueMasterLook at the nVidia Ompimus technology in the latest laptops.19:54
NekoXPI got my $50 back twice19:54
infinityNekoXP: Well, lucky you.19:54
NekoXPof course I used the money to update my Technet subscription so I can put Windows on anything I damn well like19:55
GrueMasterLook at the real history behind the x86-64 technology.  Look at the history behind the NX bit.  Tell me Microsoft doesn't manipulate the HW market.19:55
infinityrbasak: I frankly, just dislike someone getting paid for a product they had nothing to do with (my PC running Linux), full stop.  It's why I don't buy HTC phones either.19:55
pbuckleyinfinity: i guess i know how you feel about software/hardware patents ;)19:56
GrueMasterfyi:  I was in Intel processor validation for both of the above technologies.19:56
GrueMasterinfinity: I have Motorola phones and a Nook color, largely because they are standing up to Microsoft's bullying.19:57
NekoXPthe way OEM licensing works is MS set a price per device for each copy of whatever MS software is sold with a device. OEM reports back to MS quarterly and says "we sold X devices" and OEM pays MS. What they don't do is tack a microsoft license to the BOM of every device, otherwise that division would be losing out on every device due to the cost of licensing. It gets handled elsewhere and in a different account.19:57
pbuckleywell it helps that google bought motorola mobile ;)19:57
GrueMaster(also because they are just very good products).19:58
NekoXPit costs the people making Dells and selling Dells in Dell nothing to ship Windows, or ship nothing19:58
NekoXPthe same way you can go to a university and show your student ID and get a copy of Windows for free "as long as you use it for schoolwork". This didn't come as a $50 addition to your tuition fee.19:58
GrueMasterNekoXP: That same argument holds true to Ubuntu preinstalled Dells, but they are harder to find.19:59
infinityNekoXP: It may cost "nothing" on the small scale of a few machines per million, it obviously costs something overall.19:59
NekoXPimpossible right now, I just tried it :D19:59
NekoXPinfinity, yes but it's not part of the price you pay for the hardware, they recoup that cost on sales of the hardware with the OS anyway with whatever margins they set to do so.19:59
infinityNekoXP: Explaining away volume licensing in a way that makes it seem free is obviously not true.19:59
pbuckleymmm koolaid20:00
infinityNekoXP: Of course it's part of what I pay.  They don't just manufacture the money out of thin air to pay the license.20:00
NekoXPthe objection to getting a refund for Windows on a Windows preinstalled laptop from OEMs was that it's basically free, you shouldn't be able to get $50 for something that didn't come in the BOM20:00
GrueMasterNekoXP: Did you know that at one point last decade, you couldn't even buy a hard drive without a Windows License attached to it?20:00
NekoXPyou mean the other way around right20:00
NekoXPI remember buying several hard disks to get a copy of Windows20:01
infinityNekoXP: It's factored into overall cost of all machines, like an insurance policy.  That doesn't make the cost go away, it just makes it harder to break out without an applied maths degree.20:01
NekoXPbut I've never bought a hard drive and gotten a sticker with a windows key on it20:01
pbuckleyGrueMaster: now thats not true.. you could buy white box hard drives20:01
GrueMasterMy local shop was told my their MS rep that for them to have an OEM license, they couldn't just sell blank drives.20:01
NekoXPthat's the MS sales rep talking out of his arse20:01
GrueMasterThis was back in 2004-2005.20:01
GrueMasterWell, that is the kind of tactics they pull.20:02
NekoXPand your local shop believed him and added a mysterious $20 to the cost of his drives right?20:02
NekoXPhe paid his $2 to MS for every drive and bumped the price.. he would have done it to make more money and given you that bullshit excuse :D20:02
pbuckleybetter then apple imo.. at least microsoft trys to work in the ecosystem20:02
GrueMasterNo, they fought back, but lost their oem status in the process.20:02
GrueMasterAnd the company went bust.20:02
pbuckley(Then again i worked at ms, so im still a little brainwashed)20:03
GrueMasterThe guy that owned that store now only sells cabling.  One of his tech's now owns a shop of his own, but doesn't deal with MS directly.20:04
GrueMasterI only speak from personal experience or very direct knowledge of close friends.  This is nothing I read or heard rumors about.20:05
pbuckleyimo ultimately the problem with microsoft is the nepitism. You get people with big ideas, without much cultural exposure to the industry they are trying to engage in. The typical engineer at ms isn't thinking how can I fuck the average joe. It's more like how can I change the world today. Sometimes it backfires.20:06
GrueMasterTrue.  My best friend from school worked for MS for ~15 years before quiting.  He was so burned out from the experience, he spent a year traveling remote areas of India & Tibet communing with nature.20:08
pbuckleysounds about right20:08
GrueMasterAnd, yes, he is still a very close friend.20:08
NekoXPyou can't blame Windows the OS for racketeering on the part of the sales reps20:09
NekoXPor the need for people to actually HAVE Windows "by default".20:10
pbuckleyyou can because its a single organizational unit.. however the sales guys are assholes20:10
GrueMasterI don't blame the OS for anything.  I blame the company behind it for strong arming the market.20:10
NekoXPI know a lot of sales people, most of them are by profession slimy fuckers20:10
NekoXPthe company doesn't teach them to be like that.. they're like that because they're in sales20:10
NekoXPand sales people, the aggressive ones who make all the commission, are the worst examples of humanity. because they can't code, don't have ideas, and have no other productive use in a technology company20:11
GrueMasterSure.  What ever you want to believe.20:11
GrueMasterSo I have to ask, are you now a MS fan troll?20:11
NekoXPI use Windows because it does the best job so far on the stuff I need to do, day to day. I have 3 windows boxes in the house and about 19 Linux boxes (and one FreeBSD :)20:12
NekoXPnot including VMs20:12
NekoXPvarious architectures, distros..20:13
GrueMasterThe only Windows dedicated box I have does the one thing I need it to do.  Keep my wife happy with her Big Fish games.20:13
NekoXPtwo beagles, a panda, quickstart, mx6 sabrelite, more efikas than I can count, a ppc efika.. MPC8641D and MPC861020:13
GrueMasterAnd I don't touch it.20:13
NekoXPpegasos I G3 and Pegasos II G420:13
NekoXPthey all do stuff.20:13
GrueMasterI think I out number you in running systems.20:15
GrueMasterAt home.20:15
NekoXPbut my preferred text editor is Notepad++, I like WinSCP and PuTTY (actually I use KiTTY), AOL Instant Messenger for Google Talk, I use IE9 now and then, VPN access, Photoshop, Distiller, Fireworks, VMWare, XenCenter, .iTunes...20:15
GrueMasterEvery single thing you list there I can do on my Linux systems (except iTunes, I don't have any i* hw and don't want any).20:16
NekoXPI think if I had access to a decent text editor and a GUI SCP client worth a damn I might use Windows less, but I've yet to actually find them20:16
infinitySo, you personally prefer a bunch of proprietary software.  I'm not seeing how that makes Windows the best tool for everyone's job.20:16
infinity(Also, a GUI SCP?  Ick)20:17
infinityBut plenty of GUI FTP clients do SFTP, which is sane and reasonable.20:17
NekoXPbecause a lot of people prefer a bunch of proprietary software. I don't know any print or layout guys who would love to use Linux because Photoshop and Quark don't run on Linux20:17
GrueMasterYea, what's the point in that?20:17
NekoXPGrueMaster, I don't spend my life in the commandline20:17
infinityNekoXP: Yes, and they are how much of the market?20:17
NekoXPI dunno, one for every editor and layout at every newspaper, 50 per department in every university with a digital print course...20:18
infinity(Photoshop was my last holdout too, and then I got out of graphic arts and stopped caring)20:18
GrueMasterApparently, we seem to have comparable tools in Linux.  Piers Anthony is a highly known author that only uses Linux.20:18
NekoXPmagazines, independent publishers, little print shops like VistaPrint or so, independent print shops who do leaflets for the churchh and posters for gay club parties20:18
infinityAnd, frankly, UNIX systems work better for almost everything ELSE I do.  My Windows machine used to just be Photoshop, a web browser, and a stupid number of terminals to UNIX and Linux systems.20:19
infinitySo, goodbye middle man.20:19
pbuckleyphotoshop worked fine under wine last time i checked20:19
GrueMasterIt really boils down to use cases.  Most of the functionality in Photoshop that people use on a regular basis have equivalent tools in Linux now.20:20
infinitypbuckley: I gave up trying or caring when I just gave it up entirely and moved on to other projects.  But yes, I hear it works well enough these days.20:20
NekoXPyou're kidding me. there is no equivalent to photoshop on Linux20:20
infinityGrueMaster: If you're a heavy Photoshop user, it's hard to make that argument.20:20
pbuckleyNekoXP: yeh there is.. its called photoshop :P20:21
GrueMasterI never said equivalent on a feature basis.20:21
NekoXPit needs to be equivalent on a feature basis. what you do in photoshop and could do in GIMP is not what most people buy Photoshop for.20:21
infinityGrueMaster: I can make that argument for Illustrator versus Inkscape (Inkscape isn't nearly as feature-rich, but it works well, and gets the job done), but taking the GIMP over Photoshop is like punching yourself in the testicles to see if it will motivate you to not punch yourself in the testicles.20:21
pbuckleythis is a bit funny to me.. i remember the argument for mac os was BUT IT RUNS photoshop20:21
pbuckleythis is how i know linux is winning20:21
pbuckleythe same arguments are now being applied to windows20:21
NekoXPI seem to remember Adobe almost.. maybe they even did.. make Photoshop run on Linux, but it was a kind of Caldega-like shim20:22
pbuckleythere you go NekoXP photoshop in linux20:23
pbuckleygo delete your windows boxes20:23
NekoXPyeah it means installing wine though and wah.. too much hassle20:23
pbuckleyapt-get install wine20:23
GrueMasterBut, as infinity pointed out, photoshop fans will probably remain loyal.20:23
pbuckleynow you can cut and paste20:23
NekoXPI swear all they need to do is actually give it a native port and MS could do no wrong by putting a real MS Office on there and use the rest in wine if need be, and the world would be a happier place20:23
GrueMasterAnd if you want shiny gui for wine, get PlaysonLinux.20:23
pbuckleyms office runs under wine as well20:24
pbuckleythough libre office is better then ms office imo20:24
NekoXPI have trouble with libreoffice, as good as it is, and it is quite excellent, it has some trouble doing the stuff I do20:24
pbuckleyNekoXP: then go submit some patches20:24
NekoXPevery now and then it really mangles a document20:24
pbuckleyor file a bug report20:24
NekoXPor I could use MS Office since I own it20:25
pbuckleyyou could20:25
pbuckleythough technically with a technet subscription you dont20:25
NekoXPI do go back every 6 months to see what changed, I do have LibreOffice installed on Windows..20:25
pbuckleythe license agreement only covers development use of the product20:25
pbuckleyproduction usage of the product is explicitly forbidden under the eula agreement20:25
NekoXPno, I do actually have a retail copy of MS Office Home & Student edition20:25
pbuckleyi didnt say you didnt20:25
pbuckleyi was just referring to your technet argument earlier20:25
NekoXPthe technet subscription really is just for putting windows on something to make sure it's not the hw that's broken, or trying something out I saw online like a new graphics driver that did this or that, or benchmarking citrix clients, or whatever20:26
pbuckleyyou should read the eula you are agreeing to before giving anyone money20:26
pbuckleyit clearly defines the situations and methods the software can be applied20:27
NekoXPI use technet for what technet is for :)20:27
pbuckleyand based on the conversation we have had i question how legitimate your use of the license is20:27
pbuckleywhats your technet id? ;) i need to send an email to a friend20:27
NekoXPas I've used it for the past 14 years since I was part of the world's first rollout of Windows 2000 on a campus-wide scale outside of Microsoft.. it's for testing stuff out20:27
GrueMasterFanboys always like giving their money to corporate charities.20:27
NekoXPfor the work I do every day I have real retail licenses for everything20:28
pbuckleyNekoXP: good for you, want a cookie? I was a developer on windows 7 and windows ce20:28
NekoXPexcept Photoshop, actually that is a student edition, but it does say I can use it when I quit university for stuff I do after university20:28
GrueMasterSame here.  Its called the GPL (and other open source licenses).20:28
NekoXPI would love a cookie20:29
NekoXPI think Tiffy left a bunch in my cupboard, she's so forgetful.. *goes to look*20:29
mythosso... you use wine within a qemu chroot to run photoshop on a arm-device? :o20:30
pbuckleywait that works?20:30
* pbuckley goes and looks20:30
GrueMastermythos: +120:30
NekoXPit might20:30
pbuckleynever heard of qemu before20:31
NekoXPqemu x86 emulation on arm really isn't what I'd call "photoshop capable" though20:31
GrueMasterNot on an efika at least.20:31
NekoXPI was thinking on an omap5 or an MX620:31
NekoXPis qemu threaded? can I run an smp qemu?20:32
pbuckleybridge utils20:32
pbuckleyso it treats it like a vm?20:32
pbuckleyi thought virtual machines werent running on armv7's yet20:32
GrueMasterNot sure if qemu is threaded, but if the underlying system is UP only, any multitasking os will be slower.20:32
NekoXPpbuckley, there are two ways to run it, one like a vm (VirtualBox uses a lot of QEMU code) and one where it emulates the other processor and passes syscalls to the native kernel20:33
NekoXPyou just register the binary format with binfmt_misc and let the interpreter/vm do the work, like installing java20:33
infinityNekoXP: "uses a lot of qemu code"?  You realise VBox is just a friendly GUI wrapper around qemu, right?20:34
NekoXPinfinity, yes, I was trying to be nice about it :D20:34
infinity(For some value of the word "friendly"... VBox just seems to get in the way when I try to use it)20:35
NekoXPbut anyway, in the same way emulating an arm processor on a 3.2GHz 8-core Xeon with 32MB of L2 gives you the equivalent of a beagleboard with cpufreq on "conservative", just with a fast disk and networking worth a damn, x86 on ARM is... like being in back at school in the very early 90's20:35
NekoXPI mean having what amounts to a Pentium 75 is awesome for some things, but I'm fairly sure Photoshop would not be a fun experience. That said, MS Office might actually be fairly usable!20:36
NekoXPjust stick to Office 20020:36
pbuckleyi used to run photoshop on a pentium 10020:37
pbuckleysheesh kids these days are so impatient20:37
NekoXPif you can find a copy of Photoshop 5 lying around I'm sure it'd be perfectly usable20:37
* pbuckley is now convinced nekoxp has been trolling us20:37
NekoXPonly a tiny bit20:38
mythoshmm... little offtopic... i tried a qemu-arm-vm and the framebuffer has only 1 mb max. videomemory. so the resolution is very limited. is there a workaround for that?20:39
NekoXPbtw as far as "virtualization" on ARM, you're right, nobody really did proper hypervisor stuff on ARM as the arch doesn't support it in the best way possible, not like you could do on x86 or even m68k.. but it's definitely possible to pull some tricks20:39
NekoXPthe new A15s have extensions to specifically solve that though and get better performance and security out of it20:39
NekoXPI do remember running MacOS on my Amiga though that was some serious, serious fun20:39
NekoXPplaying with displaylink reminds me of how the graphics driver worked by trapping MMU accesses from the Mac side and using them to sparingly update the screen on the Amiga side. technology really hasn't moved on in the last 20 years.20:41
pbuckleyanyone have suggestions for extra logging that i can turn on to help trouble shoot why my pandaboards lock up after a couple hours of inactivity?21:04
pbuckleyits a hard lock.. no kernel panic no log details21:04
pbuckleyits happening on both of my boards21:04
GrueMasterOdd.  I don't see that here on any of my 8 systems.21:04
GrueMasterI have an 8G Kingston Class 4 in another test system, and the other two are on a shelf so harder to see.21:19
GrueMasterAh, one is a 4G Sandisk, the other is a 2G (it is running as a buildd with a USB drive for root).21:19
pbuckleywell ill try the transcends anyways since i dont really have much else to go on21:20
GrueMasterAnd I have several SD cards not currently in use.21:20
pbuckleyplus it gives me an excuse to goto frys21:20
GrueMasterI got all of my Transcend cards from Amazon.  The two "Class 10" cards I got from Fry's are my worst performers.21:21
pbuckleyi guess if i order now i can get them by tomorrow morning21:22
* pbuckley goes and looks21:22
pbuckleyspeaking of amazon.com there has been a protest outside my office in sf for the last month21:23
pbuckleybunch of people wearing pig masks21:23
pbuckleya bit creepy21:23
pbuckleyGet it by Wednesday, Feb 29 if you order in the next 6 minutes and choose one-day shipping.21:24
pbuckley6 minutes?!21:24
ynezzhurry up21:24
pbuckleywow these transcend cards are cheap21:24
pbuckley$10 bucks for an 8gb21:25
GrueMasterWow.  I think I paid $30.21:25
GrueMasterA year ago.21:25
pbuckleythe 32gb are $3621:25
pbuckleydo you have a model number21:25
pbuckleyi see a couple different 8gb models21:25
pbuckley(all are sdhc 10)21:26
GrueMasterGive me a sec.  Systems are running so I can't just yank one out.21:27
pbuckleyTS8GSDHC10E TS8GSDHC1021:27
pbuckleynm i see two21:27
pbuckleythe other was a class 6 card21:27
GrueMasterAh, there it is.  I ordered TS8GSDHC10E .21:30
GrueMasterHmm.  According to Amazon, I also have 2 of TS8GSDHC10.21:34
GrueMasterNice that I can go back and look at these invoices online.  The other hardware purchases I made over the last few years are hard copy only.21:35
pbuckleyGrueMaster: cool.. thank you22:30
pbuckleyordered myself a pair22:30
GrueMasterNo problem.22:30
pbuckleyhopefully its just faulty sd cards22:30
pbuckleygets kind of annoying to lose my state so often22:30
pbuckleyif this doesnt fix it ill have to go back to a x86 desktop :(22:31
GrueMasterYea, that does seem odd.  Although if you really want to do serious work, I recommend using a USB Sata drive for rootfs.22:32
pbuckleyi am on my desktop22:32
GrueMasterYou will see much improved speed.22:32
pbuckleyonly thing the sd card is boot22:32
GrueMasterAnd that system still fails?22:33
pbuckleythought not as frequently as the pure sd one22:33
GrueMasterHmm.  i wonder if it is powering off the usb bus or something.  Might be a glitch in the sleep settings.22:33
GrueMasterStill, I think I would have seen that here.22:34
pbuckleyit only happens when im not using the box22:34
pbuckleyits never happened while i was logged in22:34
pbuckleyi mean logged in doing stuff22:34
pbuckleybut ill come back to it and its completely dead22:34
GrueMasterWell, my ES was up all weekend and I never set foot in my office.  It sat idle the whole time.22:34
pbuckleykeyboard locked/nothing on screen22:35
pbuckleyno network22:35
pbuckleyit oculd be the power supply22:35
GrueMasterVery odd.  It may be a glitchy board.22:35
pbuckleyim using a 5v 3.6a supply from radio shack22:35
pbuckleyboth of them?22:35
GrueMasterI don't trust RS.22:35
pbuckleysuppose ill replace that too22:36
pbuckleyhave a model number i can order?22:36
GrueMasterMy 4-board tower is running off and old 230 watt AT power supply through a relay (to control individual power).22:36
pbuckleyooh fancy22:36
pbuckleyunfortunately a bit of my time alotment for this project22:37
pbuckleythis will be my frys excuse22:37
pbuckleyill see what 5v 4a type things they have22:37
GrueMasterHere is the power supply I have on the rest of the boards:  http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?KeyWords=993-1019-ND&site=us&lang=en&WT.z_slp_buy=TI_PandaBoard22:38
pbuckleynice thank you22:38
GrueMasterThe harness for the AT power supply is fairly easy to assemble if you can get the barrel connectors.  Fry's may be hit or miss, but they at least have the HD power cables I used as a sacrificial starting point.22:40
GrueMasterI had to do some serious customization as I needed to power the usb drives as well as the pandas, but I also needed one USB port open for the kvm switch and I didn't want to mod my pandas in any way.22:41
pbuckleyyeh ive been contemplating adding a usb hub22:46
pbuckleytwo ports is a bit rough22:46
GrueMasterIt is fairy easy to add 2 more ports if you can solder.  One of the expansion connectors can be used to add a 10 pin header, then you can use a standard PC internal USB cable to add ports 3 & 4.22:48
pbuckleythere is an a&b22:49
pbuckleydoes that mean i can do 6 usb ports?22:49
GrueMasterI'm looking for the info.  It is fairly simple, I just chose to not mod mine in any way.22:50
GrueMasterNo, only 4.22:50
pbuckleycool thank you22:50
GrueMasterThere it is.  http://elinux.org/Panda_How_to_add_2_USBs22:51
pbuckleythat is easy22:52
GrueMasterYep.  But 4 ports is the max for the built in USB controller.22:52
pbuckleyand i assume it enumerates just like the other usb ports?22:52
GrueMasterI believe they will show up as ports 1.3 & 1.4 respectively.22:53
pbuckleyill add that to list of things to do once i get these boards stable22:53
pbuckleythe more i think about it.. its far more likely the power supply22:54
pbuckleythen the sd card22:54
GrueMasterI would agree.  If the power supply isn't ramping fast enough on demand, that can be an issue.22:54
GrueMasterIf you have a USB Y cable (usually for external drives) try running using that on a pc to power one of your pandas.22:55
GrueMasterIt won't give you a lot of power, so no fs video playback, wifi, etc.  But for booting and sitting at the desktop, it should be fine.22:56

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