[00:55] pbuckley@panda:~/thrift$ apt-cache search libtoolize [00:55] pbuckley@panda:~/thrift$ [00:55] is this expected? [00:57] pbuckley: Yes, there's no such package. [00:57] pbuckley: You're looking for libtool. [00:58] pbuckley: And possibly also autoconf and automake. [00:58] thank you [00:58] pbuckley: (note that command-not-found would have told you) [00:58] adconrad@cthulhu:~$ libtoolize [00:58] The program 'libtoolize' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: [00:58] sudo apt-get install libtool [00:58] ill be sure to check there in the future [00:59] i rely a little to much on apt i suppose [01:14] Actually, infinity that doesn't work for me on a fresh netboot install with basic server and ssh server installed. [01:15] infinity: you can turn that off per-user if you want [01:15] # Ignore Ubuntu's attempt to slow exit(126) to a crawl. [01:15] unset command_not_found_handle [01:15] ...in .shrc or .bashrc, whichever you use [01:29] twb, but the average user does not [01:30] Sure, which is why I don't simply uninstall that package from shared systems [01:30] But I didn't read enough of the scrollback, and misunderstood what infinity was getting at [01:31] fair enoug [01:31] +h === zumbi is now known as Guest40451 [02:32] out of curiosity, why is there no thrift ubuntu package? [02:35] pbuckley: Erm, what is it? [02:35] http://thrift.apache.org/ [02:35] Thrift is a software framework for scalable cross-language services development. It combines a software stack with a code generation engine to build services that work efficiently and seamlessly between C++, Java, Python, PHP, Ruby, Erlang, Perl, Haskell, C#, Cocoa, JavaScript, Node.js, Smalltalk, and OCaml. [02:37] Yea, reading the web site now. Not sure, but it is probably one of those things that slipped under the radar. We can't always package everything out there. You can, and propose it for universe. [02:37] mmm, rsyslog doesn't actually appear to... log [02:37] I think you missed a couple of buzzwords [02:37] at least, i don't have the usual suspects in /var/log [02:38] steev_: is it running? Do you have an entry like "*.* /var/log/foo" in your rsyslog.conf / .conf.d/*.conf ? [02:38] Wikipedia's definition is: Apache Thrift, a remote procedure call (RPC) framework developed at Facebook for "scalable cross-language services development". [02:38] twb: whatever is default in precise, i tend to not mess around with the default ubuntu configs, it always seems to break things [02:38] its a requirement for scribe [02:38] which is also awesome [02:39] steev_: should work then, although I haven't checked precise it shouldn't be much different from oneiric and lucid [02:40] pgrep rsyslog returns 825, and ls /var/log is at http://paste.ubuntu.com/860000 [02:41] actually [02:41] steev_: you have log entries there, so what's the big deal [02:41] looking at 50-default.conf it looks like the usual suspects are commented out [02:41] twb: no messages, no daemon or cron.log [02:42] are they commented out on purpose on arm? [02:42] No. [02:42] AFAIK no, but I'm no expert [02:43] You don't have these two? [02:43] auth,authpriv.* /var/log/auth.log [02:43] *.*;auth,authpriv.none -/var/log/syslog [02:43] (And a few others) [02:45] http://paste.ubuntu.com/860004 is the 50-default.conf [02:45] messages is deprecated then? and everything should point at syslog? [02:46] steev_: Yes. It has been that way for a while on ubuntu. [02:46] (I can't even remember seeing a messages log in Ubuntu). [02:47] ah, okay, good to know. messages is standard on... pretty much every distro, that i knew of. and it existed around maverick and i'm pretty sure i had it back when i had natty installed on my amd64 box [02:48] Oops. I take it back. My lucid system still spews in /var/log/messages. [02:49] I think we switched in either Natty or Oneiric. [02:49] I don't have a natty system running atm, but my oneiric box shows no signs of a messages log. [02:49] And my maverick systems do. [02:50] (they're stable to the point I never bother to look at the logs, hence why I missed it). [02:50] # ls messages [02:50] ls: cannot access messages: No such file or directory [02:50] oneiric [02:51] likewise for precise [02:52] There was no point in duplicating everything across multiple logs. [02:53] People who want fine-grained control and splitting can, but it disn't make sense as a default, so we stopped. [02:53] 13:50 ls: cannot access messages: No such file or directory [02:53] That's because Ubuntu is not RHEL [02:54] The main logs are /var/log/syslog and /var/log/auth.log; by default all logs passing through syslog(3) should land in at least one of those. [02:54] infinity: i'm fine, syslog seems to == what i was looking for [02:55] Sorry, I didn't twig that you were expecting RH-flavoured log file names [02:56] twb: Well, to be fair, that used to be pretty standard everywhere. :P [02:56] But yeah, like I said, we came to the conclusion that duplicating everything was just silly in the default setup. [02:58] infinity: sorry, I'm too young to remember system 3 and V [02:58] lol [03:20] oh how i wish i was that young [03:25] steev_: still got your copy of Lion's ? :-) [03:26] sorry, I don't know what that means. As someone who grew up in Detroit, any time someone mentions Lions, all I can think is football [03:26] textbook from UNSW, first easy access to Unix source code [03:28] ahh, i'm not *that* old :) [03:32] Hum. I didn't think sys3 was much younger... [03:33] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions%27_Commentary_on_UNIX_6th_Edition,_with_Source_Code [03:34] Wow, that's listed as 1996 [03:34] Ah, that's a reprint [03:36] Research Unix V6 was 1975; Lions was 1976, ... System III was 1982, SysV was 1983. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_V [06:18] surprisingly few crashes [06:18] twb: ah, so lions was printed the year before i was born. i didn't get into computers til i was 5 :( === doko_ is now known as doko [12:26] janimo`, hmm, seems the camera doesnt work anymore in the latest precise image (led switches on, but it only takes black pics in the installer) [12:27] ogra_, is this with yesterday's kernel upload? [12:27] I know I had gst-properties work with the 1.2 kernel [12:27] not sure I tried with 2.1 [12:27] I hope webcam is not at odds with the bluetooth headset requirements [12:27] not sure it made it onto the image yet ... i'll try to upgrade once the installer finished [12:28] it shouldnt [12:28] I only uploaded meta this morning [12:28] so may not have made it , no idea [12:28] ah, k, then its likely not in the img [12:28] there is a rebuild running right now though [12:28] that might pick it up [12:29] could be a userland issue. I know at one point the ubiquity part worked but cheese did not [12:30] right, i will test after the install is done [12:30] its already removing packages [12:46] janimo`, hmm, the cam works with gstreamer-properties [12:46] so it must be an ubiquity thing [12:46] ogra_, so ubiquity/oem cfg issue or bad timing [12:46] or even fbdev [12:47] ev or other working on ubiquity would know if anything changed recently in that area [12:47] or maybe the logs even show some ENODEV type errors [12:48] and really, is firefox that good already on arm? I still have chromium installed but do not use the ac100 much [12:48] well, for me on armel FF is faster [12:48] it starts faster and renders faster [12:49] and i can easily open 20 tabs without ram issues [12:49] geeez ! [12:49] if chromium did not slow down that is indeed good news [12:49] pulling out the SD while being in initrd made the kernel freak out [12:55] hmm, NM misbehaves [12:56] it worked fine during install, weird [13:14] hmpf, i see firmware errors [13:42] * ogra_ installs libO for a test [14:31] ogra_, how's libo? I completely forgot to actually test the deb on armhf [14:31] runs fine [14:31] no probs with it at all :) [14:31] * ogra_ found another issue though ... not libO related [14:32] somehow ac100 ends up with a bunch of kde bits installed ... while all other arm images dont [14:32] the only difference between the images are jasper vs ac100-tarball-installer ... but they have similar deps [16:26] GrueMaster: well if I don't even have a power supply it's not going to work right? [16:26] where do I buy a power supply? [16:26] Do you have a USB Y cable? [16:26] umm what's one of those? [16:27] It doesn't take 3-4 amps to power on the board and run a desktop image. [16:27] They are the cables that ship with external usb drives. [16:28] GrueMaster: http://htc-linux.org/wiki/images/6/64/Usb-y-power-cable.jpg ? [16:28] I've done some power measurements here, and under load running the lamp stack, the highest power load was 1.5A with drive. [16:28] yes. [16:29] That is the cable. [16:29] umm what plugs in where with that? [16:30] The two large plugs go to a pc or laptop or powered USB hub. The mini plug goes in the panda. [16:31] that image shows two USB male plugs and one USB female, all large [16:31] You should be able to get HDMI & USB keyboard/mouse. What you probably won't get is wifi, bluetooth, video acceleration, and addon board power. [16:32] Woa, didn't see the other end. A USB Mini cable should plug off of that then. If you have that cable. [16:34] GrueMaster: ok I have a cable which is usb male to usb mini male so that plugs into my laptop and the pandaboard [16:34] and I even get a green LED turning on [16:35] It needs to be a y cable. Not sure a single USB port will supply enough power. [16:37] oh so it needs two usb male to plug into my laptop and a usb mini to plug into the panda? [16:38] yes. [16:38] GrueMaster: ok they'll go on the shopping list [16:38] what else do I need? [16:38] SD Card? what size? [16:38] HDMI to VGA? [16:39] SD card. 4G or better. Class 10 preferable. [16:39] There is no HDMI to VGA. HDMI is digital, VGA is analog. You can get converters, but monitors are just as cheap. [16:40] oh, so no easy way to get it to work with my vga monitor? [16:40] Not that I know of. [16:41] ok that puts a stopped in my plan [16:41] I need to ask jason if I can expense an HDMI monitor then [16:43] Does your monitor do DVI? [16:44] Riddell: ^^^ [16:45] no [16:45] VGA only [16:45] Time for a new monitor anyways then. But you can convert hdmi to dvi. [16:46] DVI supports bot analog & digital signals. [16:46] *both [16:48] Bestbuy lists monitors for under $100 that have VGA/DVI that will work. I'm sure Amazon does too. Your local shops should also carry them. [17:28] rsalveti: know anyone on the linaro samsung landing team? [17:39] prpplague: not from top of my head, would need to check the team [17:39] guess nobody is around at irc [17:40] yea seems so [17:40] but you can simply mail linaro-dev@lists.linaro.org if there's something you want the lt to read [18:02] infinity: Can you ping me on #arm? Not sure if the connection is still up. [18:03] GrueMaster: I would if you were there. [18:04] Hmmm. Nothing here to indicate a dropped connection, except silence. [18:04] Really hate that. [18:05] Down with Quassel, up with irssi? :) [18:58] What do you guys think are the benefits of running ubuntu's new idea of running ubuntu on android [19:03] For phones that are designed for it, it makes an excellent platform for doing presentations and stuff. [19:03] Lot more portable than a laptop or tablet. [19:06] For example, I have this keyboard, and if I had that phone, I could go to a trade show (or any other forum) and do a presentation literally out of pocket (if the forum had a screen). [19:06] http://benchmarkreviews.com/images/reviews/input_devices/VT2012/VisionTek-CandyBoard-Bluetooth-Keyboard.jpg [19:11] it's a shame it's only for systems like that Motorola thing where it docks into the back of a laptop shell [19:11] and that already happened, it's a product shipping already.. [19:12] The demo I saw had a simple dock that had usb & HDMI out (plus charging capabilities). The doc was smaller than the phone. [19:13] http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Consumer-Product-and-Services/Mobile+Phone+Accessories/Docking-Stations/Atrix-Laptop-Dock-US-EN [19:13] it's a fucking lovely idea, shame basically nobody cares [19:13] The laptop dock is just one example. [19:14] http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Consumer-Product-and-Services/Mobile+Phone+Accessories/Docking-Stations/HD-Station-for-ATRIX2-US-EN [19:14] This is what I'm talking about. [19:16] again, I doubt anybody really cares about this kind of functionality.. part of the problem is having "full firefox" doesn't make much sense at that level, presentation software is going to suck somewhat, while you can do what they're doing (run something in a chroot in Android), it means you're going to lack all the integration from Android to phone except for "the sd card is linked in to the chroot so I can read the presentation on Ope [19:16] nOffice as well as in the Android document reader".. if you wanted to do a presentation out of pocket a better idea would be to have proper presentation software for Android, unless your goal was to edit it at the last minute between puling it out of pocket and doing the presentation [19:17] at which point you probably had your laptop with you anyway and you can tether it to your phone [19:17] convergence only works if people don't have the things you're trying to converge already and rely on them [19:18] plus: Apple doesn't need a "full Firefox, Linux OS" on their iPad or iPhone, and all told, Atrix stuff isn't any cheaper than either Apple product :) [19:18] Oh really? Then what's the point of having a smart phone in the first place? [19:19] certainly not to do work. [19:19] Especially if you already have your laptop? [19:19] I use it to browse email, occasionally check facebook, play WWF or Angry Birds, and it's very very handy for Skype [19:20] it also has a camera [19:20] and is an mp3 player [19:20] All things you can just do on your laptop. [19:20] what, take a family photo on my VAIO? [19:20] or go running with it strapped to my back? it's 12lbs... [19:20] But, can your laptop fit in your pocket for when you need to travel for a presentation? [19:21] no but I tend to travel with a little more than a pair of underwear stuffed in my jacket pocket just in case. I have a bag for all this stuff [19:21] The point is, not everyone will want this. hell, a lot of people don't even have cell phones, let alone smart phones. [19:22] the sales of the lapdock and even the atrix dock have been slow at best... [19:22] I do know of several people where this would make more sense than lugging a laptop, even a small netbook. [19:22] I don't care what verizon says, having a tablet doesn't mean your 7 year old kid can open a lemonade business [19:23] Again, early market, and not for everyone. [19:23] tablet market has basically bottomed out already because it's not about having a tablet, but about having an iPad or a Kindle. If you're not one of those people don't look at you in the store. [19:24] what makes people want those is iTunes or Amazon, it isn't running presentations at work. [19:24] I remember an excellent quote from the guys that created the ascii art driver for quake 2 that applies here: If you have to ask why, this isn't for you. [19:25] I know why, I also know why the number of people who want it doesn't make a market [19:25] I wonder if Steve Jobs had this argument before coming out with the ipod or the iphone? [19:26] You are essentially arguing chicken/egg theory. [19:26] no, because Steve Jobs said "it has iTunes, it could be a sheet of glass with a smiley face painted in dog turd on it, but people would still buy it, so make it" [19:27] and he was right.. that sheet of glass smeared in dog turd eclipses every other tablet on the market despite almost identical features, because they don't sell tablets, they sell iPads [19:27] to people who already have a MacBook and an iPod. [19:28] putting Ubuntu on it doesn't make it replace your laptop, it's just not the same thing. [19:29] That's one point of view. [19:29] But the same argument could be made about other products, like this:http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika [19:29] it's even not the same thing if they come out with Windows Phone 8 and put Windows 8 ARM on it so you can dock it and use it like a real computer. It's just not what people want out of a phone, that level of convergence doesn't appeal to anyone. [19:29] GrueMaster, yeah, we know [19:30] netbooks are a fucking abysmal idea, it turns out. [19:30] we got there fairly early and found nobody else could even make it work [19:30] Only because Microsoft killed the market. [19:30] not even Canonical [19:30] with what? [19:30] people don't buy Atom netbooks either, or they wouldn't be being refurbed and sold at half price everywhere. the number of returns is staggering. [19:31] They killed the x86 netbook market. [19:32] The hardware costs have such little return that manufacturers couldn't make money off of them. Then MS told them their specs were not adequate and made a set of requirements to run Windows. [19:32] (which really sucks on these btw. I have one). [19:32] I think Intel did more than Microsoft for that by making a chipset which had too high expectations of power consumption with very little in the way of performance [19:32] I have 3 of the damn things. [19:33] one of them bought specifically because it had *TWO* SD card slots, I use it for copying them and imaging [19:33] Not sure on that. My Acer Aspire One has 4.5 hours of battery life under Ubuntu. [19:33] (the Intel reference). [19:34] mine too but it does have a 6-cell battery and weighs 4lbs [19:34] they're not light enough, not fast enough, and at full price you may as well get a 15" Dell Inspiron [19:35] Granted, it isn't as good as my AC100 in weight or battery life, but out of the box it performs better. [19:35] I keep it because the size is right for me. I could have bought a new laptop this year, but for me, I didn't see the benefit. [19:36] I tested that and basically figured it's down to really awesome graphics drivers on the Atom, and the actual hard disk instead of the SSD which is frankly not as good as it sounded [19:36] I have a powerful desktop with easy remote access for heavy lifting, and I don't play games enough to justify anything else. [19:36] yeah I have an xbox [19:36] and I use my VAIO for compiling, on Ubuntu, in VMware (on Windows 7) [19:37] and all the other things like writing docs, generating decent PDFs, Photoshop, managing the servers at work (exporting a VM is really cpu intensive apparently) [19:37] I use windows in a VM to test win32-imagewriter and taxes. Nothing else. [19:39] as far as I'm concerned any netbook that doesn't perform like a Core i3 and look like a MacBook Air 11" isn't going to go anywhere. [19:40] end of the year that product may actually be something someone can actually make, but convincing them to use Linux or Android is a hard sell, I'm glad for Windows 8 since it might actually give us a viable market to hit [19:41] Again, usage model. [19:41] there's always been and always will be a market for nettops, which is great [19:41] even if they're not on the desktop and just being used to back digital signage or some university project [19:41] And cracking Microsofts monopoly is extremely difficult when thy don't play fair. [19:42] MS don't so much have a monopoly so much as have the best tool for the job [19:43] Erm, sure. [19:43] I would agree that in certain respects they are a glistening, glittery poop in a field of less glittery, far stinkier poops. But if you are forced to buy a poop at least get the gold plated one. [19:44] did anyone use ubuntu on lenovo k1? [19:44] the gold might be worth something :) [19:44] I used to own a computer business (before I even knew Linux). They are very manipulative of the market. [19:45] eh.. it's not just Microsoft who do that, I can name a certain astronaut millionaire who doesn't play fair either [19:45] NekoXP: They may or may not have the best tool for the job, but when you can't buy 99% of the PC hardware on the market without an OS, I call that a forced monopoly. [19:45] not forced by Microsoft, though - forced by the market [19:45] NekoXP: I'm not even saying I want Ubuntu preinstalled (I don't care), but I *must* buy a copy of Windows just to get the hardware I want. [19:46] if you ship a laptop with no Windows on it, people send it back [19:46] NekoXP: Not forced by MS is pretty much a lie. Vendors get lots of incentives to do it this way. [19:46] given that the cost of Windows basically doesn't even factor in to the cost of your laptop given the licensing deals OEMs do on their hardware, you're not actually getting a bad deal, although they will "refund" you if you ask [19:46] I think http://www.system76.com/ would argue that. [19:46] that's called volume licensing, and it's not an unfair model [19:46] "forced" is a strong word, perhaps, but nothing in financial markets is "forced" so much as "coerced". [19:47] NekoXP: "volume licensing" shouldn't define what you do with all your hardware. [19:47] no, what customers WANT is what defines what they do with it [19:47] NekoXP: And "they will refund if you ask" is also a whole lot more effort than people claim it is (and often just plain not true). [19:48] Microsoft use the fact that everyone WANTS windows, whether they know it or not (usually by the disappointment when it boots Fedora Core instead), will not buy a laptop that doesn't come with Windows or MacOS [19:48] Customers want working systems. When given no options, they go with the only choice. [19:49] Dell do ship Ubuntu, but those people who are gullible enough to be pulled into the fallacy of choice of operating system don't make up anything approaching a significant market [19:49] NekoXP: So, your contention is that when purchasing from someone who lets you tailor a system online, offering a "No Operating System preinstalled" option would be against customers' wishes, because they might accidentally click that instead of the (presumably default) "Windows 7 64-bit Preinstalled"? [19:49] Best Buy even has agreements with Microsoft to only sell Windows based systems. Microsoft allowed them to carry Apple only to not monopolize the market. [19:50] infinity, no, I would say offering it by default with "No OS installed" would be against their wishes [19:50] Don't preinstalled crapware companies also subsidize desktop computer prices? No OS == no crapware == no subsidy == more expensive desktop. [19:50] NekoXP: I wasn't talking defaults, just options. You tell me that I don't actually want options. [19:50] offering it with "Ubuntu Linux 12.04" by default would also not be the default option most people would pick when shopping for a laptop [19:50] I'm all for options [19:51] For someone that sells linux based systems, you don't make a very good convincing argument. [19:51] you check the sales figures and see a hundred million Windows devices sold and 100,000 Ubuntu devices sold for the same product and you think.. that's 0.1% of the market, the default should be Windows [19:51] rbasak: And yet, I'd still pay a tiny premium to know that none of my purchase price is going to a product (Windows) that I won't be using. [19:51] we don't HAVE a choice [19:52] Windows doesn't exist for the systems we make, but if it did, we'd sell the shit out of it [19:52] NekoXP: Erm. Those numbers are meaningless, given that people don't have the choice to purchase most hardware without Windows. [19:53] everyone has the choice, GrueMaster just showed a link for it, there was a court precedent allowing users to get a "refund" for the cost of Windows on their device if they didn't actually want it... [19:53] infinity: yeah - I hate that the figures get skewed by Windows being mandatory in the purchase price. [19:53] NekoXP: Have you ever tried to reclaim your Windows license cost? [19:53] that doesn't change that the actual cost to the user for a "Windows license", that sticker on the back of the laptop, and the preinstallation of a partition taking up 10% of your disk space, actually costs the user absolutely nothing [19:54] NekoXP: yes, but you also forget that Microsoft also manipulates the hardware market to only support Windows. [19:54] infinity, yeah I did it twice [19:54] NekoXP: I know people who've been in mail-and-phone back-and-forth for well over a year trying to get their silly 50 bucks back. [19:54] Look at the nVidia Ompimus technology in the latest laptops. [19:54] I got my $50 back twice [19:54] NekoXP: Well, lucky you. [19:54] *Optimus [19:55] of course I used the money to update my Technet subscription so I can put Windows on anything I damn well like [19:55] Look at the real history behind the x86-64 technology. Look at the history behind the NX bit. Tell me Microsoft doesn't manipulate the HW market. [19:55] rbasak: I frankly, just dislike someone getting paid for a product they had nothing to do with (my PC running Linux), full stop. It's why I don't buy HTC phones either. [19:56] infinity: i guess i know how you feel about software/hardware patents ;) [19:56] fyi: I was in Intel processor validation for both of the above technologies. [19:57] infinity: I have Motorola phones and a Nook color, largely because they are standing up to Microsoft's bullying. [19:57] the way OEM licensing works is MS set a price per device for each copy of whatever MS software is sold with a device. OEM reports back to MS quarterly and says "we sold X devices" and OEM pays MS. What they don't do is tack a microsoft license to the BOM of every device, otherwise that division would be losing out on every device due to the cost of licensing. It gets handled elsewhere and in a different account. [19:57] well it helps that google bought motorola mobile ;) [19:58] (also because they are just very good products). [19:58] it costs the people making Dells and selling Dells in Dell nothing to ship Windows, or ship nothing [19:58] the same way you can go to a university and show your student ID and get a copy of Windows for free "as long as you use it for schoolwork". This didn't come as a $50 addition to your tuition fee. [19:59] NekoXP: That same argument holds true to Ubuntu preinstalled Dells, but they are harder to find. [19:59] NekoXP: It may cost "nothing" on the small scale of a few machines per million, it obviously costs something overall. [19:59] impossible right now, I just tried it :D [19:59] infinity, yes but it's not part of the price you pay for the hardware, they recoup that cost on sales of the hardware with the OS anyway with whatever margins they set to do so. [19:59] NekoXP: Explaining away volume licensing in a way that makes it seem free is obviously not true. [20:00] mmm koolaid [20:00] NekoXP: Of course it's part of what I pay. They don't just manufacture the money out of thin air to pay the license. [20:00] the objection to getting a refund for Windows on a Windows preinstalled laptop from OEMs was that it's basically free, you shouldn't be able to get $50 for something that didn't come in the BOM [20:00] NekoXP: Did you know that at one point last decade, you couldn't even buy a hard drive without a Windows License attached to it? [20:00] you mean the other way around right [20:01] I remember buying several hard disks to get a copy of Windows [20:01] NekoXP: It's factored into overall cost of all machines, like an insurance policy. That doesn't make the cost go away, it just makes it harder to break out without an applied maths degree. [20:01] No. [20:01] but I've never bought a hard drive and gotten a sticker with a windows key on it [20:01] GrueMaster: now thats not true.. you could buy white box hard drives [20:01] My local shop was told my their MS rep that for them to have an OEM license, they couldn't just sell blank drives. [20:01] that's the MS sales rep talking out of his arse [20:01] ^^ [20:01] This was back in 2004-2005. [20:02] Well, that is the kind of tactics they pull. [20:02] and your local shop believed him and added a mysterious $20 to the cost of his drives right? [20:02] he paid his $2 to MS for every drive and bumped the price.. he would have done it to make more money and given you that bullshit excuse :D [20:02] better then apple imo.. at least microsoft trys to work in the ecosystem [20:02] No, they fought back, but lost their oem status in the process. [20:02] And the company went bust. [20:03] (Then again i worked at ms, so im still a little brainwashed) [20:04] The guy that owned that store now only sells cabling. One of his tech's now owns a shop of his own, but doesn't deal with MS directly. [20:05] I only speak from personal experience or very direct knowledge of close friends. This is nothing I read or heard rumors about. [20:06] imo ultimately the problem with microsoft is the nepitism. You get people with big ideas, without much cultural exposure to the industry they are trying to engage in. The typical engineer at ms isn't thinking how can I fuck the average joe. It's more like how can I change the world today. Sometimes it backfires. [20:08] True. My best friend from school worked for MS for ~15 years before quiting. He was so burned out from the experience, he spent a year traveling remote areas of India & Tibet communing with nature. [20:08] sounds about right [20:08] And, yes, he is still a very close friend. [20:09] you can't blame Windows the OS for racketeering on the part of the sales reps [20:10] or the need for people to actually HAVE Windows "by default". [20:10] you can because its a single organizational unit.. however the sales guys are assholes [20:10] I don't blame the OS for anything. I blame the company behind it for strong arming the market. [20:10] I know a lot of sales people, most of them are by profession slimy fuckers [20:10] the company doesn't teach them to be like that.. they're like that because they're in sales [20:11] and sales people, the aggressive ones who make all the commission, are the worst examples of humanity. because they can't code, don't have ideas, and have no other productive use in a technology company [20:11] Sure. What ever you want to believe. [20:11] So I have to ask, are you now a MS fan troll? [20:11] lol [20:12] I use Windows because it does the best job so far on the stuff I need to do, day to day. I have 3 windows boxes in the house and about 19 Linux boxes (and one FreeBSD :) [20:12] not including VMs [20:13] various architectures, distros.. [20:13] The only Windows dedicated box I have does the one thing I need it to do. Keep my wife happy with her Big Fish games. [20:13] two beagles, a panda, quickstart, mx6 sabrelite, more efikas than I can count, a ppc efika.. MPC8641D and MPC8610 [20:13] And I don't touch it. [20:13] pegasos I G3 and Pegasos II G4 [20:13] they all do stuff. [20:15] I think I out number you in running systems. [20:15] At home. [20:15] but my preferred text editor is Notepad++, I like WinSCP and PuTTY (actually I use KiTTY), AOL Instant Messenger for Google Talk, I use IE9 now and then, VPN access, Photoshop, Distiller, Fireworks, VMWare, XenCenter, .iTunes... [20:15] maybe [20:16] Every single thing you list there I can do on my Linux systems (except iTunes, I don't have any i* hw and don't want any). [20:16] I think if I had access to a decent text editor and a GUI SCP client worth a damn I might use Windows less, but I've yet to actually find them [20:16] So, you personally prefer a bunch of proprietary software. I'm not seeing how that makes Windows the best tool for everyone's job. [20:17] (Also, a GUI SCP? Ick) [20:17] But plenty of GUI FTP clients do SFTP, which is sane and reasonable. [20:17] because a lot of people prefer a bunch of proprietary software. I don't know any print or layout guys who would love to use Linux because Photoshop and Quark don't run on Linux [20:17] Yea, what's the point in that? [20:17] GrueMaster, I don't spend my life in the commandline [20:17] NekoXP: Yes, and they are how much of the market? [20:18] I dunno, one for every editor and layout at every newspaper, 50 per department in every university with a digital print course... [20:18] (Photoshop was my last holdout too, and then I got out of graphic arts and stopped caring) [20:18] Apparently, we seem to have comparable tools in Linux. Piers Anthony is a highly known author that only uses Linux. [20:18] magazines, independent publishers, little print shops like VistaPrint or so, independent print shops who do leaflets for the churchh and posters for gay club parties [20:19] And, frankly, UNIX systems work better for almost everything ELSE I do. My Windows machine used to just be Photoshop, a web browser, and a stupid number of terminals to UNIX and Linux systems. [20:19] So, goodbye middle man. [20:19] photoshop worked fine under wine last time i checked [20:20] It really boils down to use cases. Most of the functionality in Photoshop that people use on a regular basis have equivalent tools in Linux now. [20:20] pbuckley: I gave up trying or caring when I just gave it up entirely and moved on to other projects. But yes, I hear it works well enough these days. [20:20] you're kidding me. there is no equivalent to photoshop on Linux [20:20] lol [20:20] GrueMaster: If you're a heavy Photoshop user, it's hard to make that argument. [20:21] NekoXP: yeh there is.. its called photoshop :P [20:21] I never said equivalent on a feature basis. [20:21] it needs to be equivalent on a feature basis. what you do in photoshop and could do in GIMP is not what most people buy Photoshop for. [20:21] GrueMaster: I can make that argument for Illustrator versus Inkscape (Inkscape isn't nearly as feature-rich, but it works well, and gets the job done), but taking the GIMP over Photoshop is like punching yourself in the testicles to see if it will motivate you to not punch yourself in the testicles. [20:21] this is a bit funny to me.. i remember the argument for mac os was BUT IT RUNS photoshop [20:21] this is how i know linux is winning [20:21] the same arguments are now being applied to windows [20:22] I seem to remember Adobe almost.. maybe they even did.. make Photoshop run on Linux, but it was a kind of Caldega-like shim [20:22] http://sixrevisions.com/graphics-design/10-excellent-open-source-and-free-alternatives-to-photoshop/ [20:22] http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=17 [20:23] there you go NekoXP photoshop in linux [20:23] go delete your windows boxes [20:23] yeah it means installing wine though and wah.. too much hassle [20:23] apt-get install wine [20:23] But, as infinity pointed out, photoshop fans will probably remain loyal. [20:23] now you can cut and paste [20:23] I swear all they need to do is actually give it a native port and MS could do no wrong by putting a real MS Office on there and use the rest in wine if need be, and the world would be a happier place [20:23] And if you want shiny gui for wine, get PlaysonLinux. [20:24] ms office runs under wine as well [20:24]