[11:46] <snap-l> Happy leap day
[11:46] <snap-l> or for those of you who don't observe leap day: Happy Feb 28+1
[11:49] <rick_h_> heh, one more day to the birthday month!
[13:15] <rick_h_> https://hacks.mozilla.org/2012/02/gaia-mozillas-user-interface-for-boot-to-gecko-all-web-technologies/
[13:15]  * rick_h_ gets all excited for mobile dev in a browser !!!!!
[13:17] <brousch> "What makes Gaia extra interesting is that it is all developed in HTML5, CSS and JavaScript, and you can debug and view the code directly on the device or in a web browser!"
[13:18] <brousch> That is awesome
[13:18] <snap-l> "Also, you can have a XSS at the OS level"
[13:18] <rick_h_> :)
[13:18] <brousch> One of my biggest gripe with mobile is that you can't develop an app for your android/iphone on the device itself
[13:19] <brousch> i theoretically have a quad core tablet with 1GB of ram and i can't develop an android app on it. that thing is more powerful than my laptop
[13:19] <brousch> well, less ram, but you get my drift
[13:19] <snap-l> screw this mobile dev. If you want to make a phone call, you should be plugged into the wall the way God intended.
[13:20] <brousch> you give kids an ipad and all they can do is use it, they can't create for it without another computer
[13:22] <rick_h_> bah, I need one more SA answer or something. Can't stand being at 1998 points
[13:23] <snap-l> That's an order of magnatude more than what I have on SO
[13:27] <rick_h_> snap-l: so my vim color thing is strange. If I page around a file, it clears up
[13:27] <rick_h_> but the section that is bad, will still be bad when I page back up to it
[13:28] <snap-l> Yeah,it's the re-draw
[13:29] <snap-l> I think tmux isn't interpreting a background draw command
[13:29] <rick_h_> not sure, it might be urxvt issues tbh
[13:29] <snap-l> likely a combo
[13:29] <rick_h_> right
[13:30] <rick_h_> the levels are deep with the urxvt -> tmux -> vim -> color scheme
[13:30] <snap-l> Have you tried different colorschemes?
[13:30] <rick_h_> yea, they all have various degrees of better/worse
[13:30] <snap-l> Ugh
[13:30] <rick_h_> it really depends on how close the bg color of the scheme is to the native terminal bgcolor theme
[13:52] <snap-l> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9058804/caribou_bogo_20120229.pdf
[13:52] <snap-l> Show on your mobile phone for a discount.
[13:53] <rick_h_> downloaded to my dropbox folder :)
[14:12] <brousch> vimmers https://market.android.com/details?id=net.momodalo.app.vimtouch
[14:13] <rick_h_> OMG /me rushes to install
[14:13] <snap-l> Make sure to clean up afterward
[14:14] <rick_h_> I installed the hacker keyboard just for this day
[14:22] <brousch> rick_h_: don't burst a vessel
[15:07] <rick_h_> hmm, I can't get it to work with a crap
[15:09] <jrwren> snap-l: raspberrypi is the perfect sqeeze node!
[15:09] <brousch> so it is vim!
[15:17] <rick_h_> ok, somewhat got it working, ugh on the fact that you can't change keyboards from within the app
[15:18] <rick_h_> and it not supporting G sucks
[15:18] <rick_h_> but did get it to kind of work I guess
[15:22] <snap-l> jrwren: Yeah, it does look pretty spiffy.
[15:23] <brousch> G?
[15:24] <rick_h_> brousch: end of document
[15:26] <brousch> oh, that is weird
[15:31] <rick_h_> krondor: 7pm CHC fyi
[15:38] <krondor> rick_h_:  thanks for the reminder, just sent the approval request
[15:39] <rick_h_> krondor: :)
[15:39] <rick_h_> file the paperwork properly, I don't want any issues with processing lol
[15:40] <krondor> aye, the paperwork is always my weakpoint
[15:54] <krondor> pvcreate /dev/sda2
[15:54] <krondor> woops wrong window :)
[16:14] <snap-l> All: We need to come up with a different location for the global jam
[16:14] <snap-l> unfortunately SRT isn't going to work out this weekend
[16:17] <krondor> rick_h_:  approval granted cya tonight
[16:18] <brousch> snap-l: your apartment
[16:19] <snap-l> brousch: Sure thing. I charge $1000 per person
[16:19] <brousch> outragous
[16:20] <snap-l> http://ropl.org/index.php/library-services/meeting-rooms <- $125 for 5 hours
[16:20] <brousch> food and drinks allowed?
[16:20] <snap-l> brousch: And if you saw how big my house is, you wouldn't offer it up. :)
[16:21] <snap-l> rick_h_ can attest to it's modest, yet crackerbox-like size.
[16:21] <brousch> good idea. rick_h_'s house. then he will be able to attend
[16:21] <snap-l> hah
[16:22] <snap-l> No, I'm not putting him through that
[16:23] <brousch> feel free to move it out of ann arbor if you have to
[16:24] <snap-l> I'm going to post it to the list to see if anyone has any ideas
[16:24] <snap-l> Unfortunately, I'm not coming up with anything at the moment.
[16:26] <brousch> i wonder what U-M charges for a room
[16:27] <snap-l> I don't know of any U-M students to ask
[16:31] <Blazeix> you could hit up some ann arbor CHC people, i think they _just_ moved their CHC to a u-m room
[16:33] <rick_h_> yea, @steiza  is the organizer listed on their meetup pages
[16:33] <rick_h_> might ping him to see if he knows the ropes on what they're doing
[16:34] <brousch> wait, don't we have WSU geekers in here?
[16:34] <rick_h_> _stink_: ColonelPanic001 might have access to something?
[16:34] <brousch> U-M Unions room request http://uuis.umich.edu/munionsched/commrequest.cfm
[16:35] <brousch> no prices listed of course
[16:39] <rick_h_> snap-l: call up the CHC room maybe? doubt it's open though :/
[16:41] <brousch> does sourceforge have anything?
[16:46] <brousch> what about the various hackerspaces?
[16:47] <greg-g> the a2 hackerspace is CRAMPED
[16:47] <greg-g> I mean, if only 5 people showed up, and you were ok on folding tables, and being right next to a bunch of nerds playing video games in a dark room
[16:48] <greg-g> (they share a space with Digital Ops, one of those things that you thought died in 2003: computer game rent by the $time places)
[16:49] <brousch> but there's little reason to keep it in ann arbor. greg-g is not there, and jrwren is probably the only other one
[16:49] <greg-g> A2 downtown library has space someone can get, we did the Open Data hackathon thing there
[16:50] <greg-g> brousch: very good point
[16:50]  * greg-g just knows his old 'hood, not many other places
[16:50] <brousch> right
[16:50] <brousch> morpace can host us
[16:56] <snap-l> brousch: Doubtful
[17:26] <snap-l> Well, the Caribou R.O. Meeting room is available on Saturday from 7pm-11pm
[17:27] <snap-l> Unfortunately, not beforehand.
[17:28] <rick_h_> yea, that's rough for the west siders, and not sure if folks like jim would show for that or not
[17:31] <rick_h_> hmm, floss weekly has gone down the tubes? Figured I'd put it on in the background but don't see it scheduled
[17:31] <snap-l> Worst case, if we moved it to Sunday, would that work for people?
[17:31] <snap-l> I'm kinda loathe to do that.
[17:32] <rick_h_> so I can only speak for myself: sat night is cool with me and I could probably make that 90%
[17:32] <greg-g> I would try to kee the same date/time
[17:32] <rick_h_> sunday depends on the time
[18:19] <krondor> a2hackerspacE?  all hands active?
[18:21] <krondor> i3Detroit has lots of room, but probably not great for meetings. Most of the space is in the shop floor, and it can be noisy.
[18:21] <krondor> probably too far sout/east as well for some (reading scrollback)
[18:23] <snap-l> krondor: Not familiar with a2hackerspace or all hands active.
[18:25] <brousch> 11pm is pretty late
[18:25] <brousch> but it's a coffee shop, so i could drink a small caffeinated and bounce off the walls all night
[18:26] <krondor> What about other colleges; OCC, OU?
[18:27] <brousch> at this time i don't have any others coming with me
[18:27] <brousch> ubuntu has really fallen out of favor over here
[18:28] <mydogsnameisrudy> likes what linux mint 12 is doing
[18:29] <krondor> I threw mint 12 on a vm, and I have to say I really didn't like the gnome3 activities overview thing
[18:29] <snap-l> Actually, I think I have an OK from JoDee to have it here if need be
[18:29] <krondor> other than that, mint seems nice.  I don't think I'll stay on it though
[18:30] <snap-l> so I think that'll be the fallback
[18:30] <brousch> snap-l: some apartment complexes have a common room you can reserve and rent
[18:30] <snap-l> brousch: I'm no longer at an apartment. :)
[18:31] <snap-l> but I'm right off I-75.
[18:31] <brousch> you have a house?
[18:31] <snap-l> long story.
[18:31] <brousch> i must've missed that one
[18:31] <snap-l> long story.
[18:32] <snap-l> Plus we're w/in walking distance of downtown Royal Oak
[18:32] <brousch> my sister lives out there
[18:33] <brousch> N Wilson Ave
[18:33] <rick_h_> snap-l: did you want me to ask the wife?
[18:33] <snap-l> rick_h_: re: having it at your place?
[18:33] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea
[18:34] <snap-l> Up to you
[18:34] <rick_h_> I mean if we take over upstairs can do dozen+ people w/o issue
[18:34] <snap-l> I think you're a little far for the downriver folks
[18:34] <rick_h_> yea, definitely
[18:35] <snap-l> rick_h_: We're going to clear out the living room, so I think we can manage 10-15 people
[18:35] <rick_h_> ok, know it can get tight there so wasn't sure what you wanted
[18:35] <brousch> hang the conference banner?
[18:36] <snap-l> Yeah, we made it work for Christmas
[18:36] <snap-l> Trust me, I have the power of the squirrel
[18:36] <rick_h_> snap-l: ok, if you've got it then all good
[18:37] <snap-l> rick_h_: ty for the offer, though
[18:37] <rick_h_> snap-l: k
[18:38] <brousch> hey, we can all bring our kids and jodee can watch them!
[18:38] <brousch> snap-l: how hard am i going to kicked for that one?
[18:38] <snap-l> brousch: Only if you want them to learn how to build a nuclear reactor out of smoke detectors
[18:39] <brousch> i'm ok with that
[18:40] <snap-l> brousch: You won't be. :)
[19:10] <nullspace> anyone in here that uses synergy, ever notice that some times you can move between both screens at any horizontal point on the sccreen on one but only the top right on another?
[19:16] <krondor> nullspace:  nope never had that problem
[19:17] <nullspace> it usually is there when I start it up but then goes away, something is up with my X setup on my desktop
[19:39] <rick_h_> nullspace: no, I've got small quirks in where the top/bottom is, but only if I go hitting it
[19:40] <snap-l> Yeah, I remember it being a tad quirky at times, but overall it worked OK
[19:40] <rick_h_> yea, happy with it
[19:49] <rick_h_> <3 vim... "gee I wish I had syntax coloring of this moinmoin wiki crap...oh look, there's a file to do it"
[19:50] <greg-g> oh moin moin
[19:51] <rick_h_> yea, can't get away from it *sigh*
[20:44] <brousch> Any thoughts on this? http://clusterbleep.net/blog/2012/02/29/my-principle/
[20:47] <snap-l> Extremely troubling
[20:48] <snap-l> Also, people who put formatting in machine-read-only excel files need to stop
[20:48] <snap-l> I swear, I'm going to write a program called tufte.py which will critique the formatting
[20:55] <Blazeix> brousch: I agree with what you're saying, but things like the cloud9 ide might fix the issue
[20:56] <snap-l> I <3 it when pep8 runs with no errors / warnings after I get done editing it.
[20:56] <snap-l> It's like getting a little hug
[20:57] <snap-l> of course, if I actually had tests for this code, that would be like getting a happy ending, but not getting too carried away.
[20:59] <rick_h_> brousch: kind of interesting, but then again you don't build a car while driving one, you don't build a house inside of one, etc
[21:00] <brousch> but there are logical reasons those don't happen. what reason is there for no ide on android?
[21:00] <rick_h_> brousch: and web apps live on servers, not on mobile devices
[21:00] <brousch> phonegap
[21:00] <rick_h_> brousch: because it's not an experience for large entry
[21:00] <rick_h_> I mean, shoot, my main development is on dual 1920 displays docked with a 7# keyboard and a trackball
[21:00] <rick_h_> and I find that limiting sometimes
[21:02] <brousch> i just use a laptop with a single 15" monitor
[21:02] <Blazeix> is it crazy foggy up north? i'm at the rencen, and can't see the buildings across the street...
[21:02] <rick_h_> brousch: yea, I mean you CAN do anything you want I guess
[21:02] <rick_h_> vim over ssh client to another machine
[21:02] <Blazeix> brousch: wow, you should get a bigger monitor :)
[21:02] <brousch> workspaces
[21:04] <rick_h_> brousch: yea, sure, but anyway. I just don't think it's feasible to say that an editor on an android phone with a paging through 'workspaces' like the home screen is going to make for a way to make great things
[21:05] <brousch> no, i was saying one monitor is enough for me because i use workspaces. on android you only see one program at a time anyways
[21:06] <greg-g> ubuntu on android will solve all your problems, brousch :P
[21:06] <brousch> it's fragile and slow
[21:06] <greg-g> but, I agree. it reminds me of Cory Doctorow's recent talk at CCC.
[21:06] <brousch> right
[21:07] <greg-g> now, there is also the "but not everything is even capable, form factor wise, of doing that" and I agree with that too. but I think we are limiting our kids if we only give them an ipad
[21:08] <greg-g> (not that I'll give rowan an ipad, of course)
[21:08] <brousch> well george has a chromebook, but it has the same limitations
[21:08] <krondor> well I guess you can say there's vim and ports of gcc for android and keyboard/monitor support (hdmi out)
[21:09] <krondor> ubuntu when it gets less fragile (and beefier hardware)
[21:09] <rick_h_> when was exposing your children to one way of doing/using things ever good?
[21:09] <brousch> yeah, actual linux on mobiles would fix the problem
[21:09] <rick_h_> great, tablets are cheaper, easier to use...help them grow out of them
[21:10] <rick_h_> this "think of the children" argument is bonkers
[21:10] <brousch> you and i can help our kids, but what about the other 90% who can barely run windows?
[21:10] <rick_h_> then how are they worse off?
[21:10] <rick_h_> I didn't get a computer until college
[21:11] <snap-l> People get tablets because they aren't computers
[21:11] <brousch> we had programmable computers to learn on, they will have non-programmable tablets
[21:11] <rick_h_> I program in linux for a living...it's not like if a 10yr old only uses a tablet they're stuck in life
[21:11] <snap-l> My microwave has a computer, but I'm not inclined to disassemble it
[21:12] <brousch> snap-l: shame on you
[21:12] <snap-l> But, I do think people think of their computers as black boxes
[21:12] <snap-l> and that sacares me
[21:12] <snap-l> that's mainframe thinking
[21:12] <rick_h_> and cars are black boxes
[21:12] <rick_h_> and furnaces are black boxes
[21:12] <snap-l> rick_h_: Cares are black magic. :)
[21:12] <snap-l> cars, rather
[21:12] <rick_h_> just because you're inside of the field doesn't mean everyone else is going to be, or should be
[21:13] <rick_h_> I'm a cli loving hard core geek, I'm not over there teaching my wife how to use top
[21:13] <brousch> why do you have to be in the field to write a program?
[21:13] <rick_h_> why do you have to be a dr to write a prescription?
[21:13] <brousch> laws
[21:13] <rick_h_> ok, then call it natural selection :)
[21:13] <krondor> brousch:  app inventor runs in a browser, maybe it works on stock android and the experience is good for kids to learn on (like mindstorms)
[21:13] <rick_h_> seriously, those that are interested will do things
[21:13] <brousch> krondor: i thought they killed that
[21:14] <rick_h_> tablets aren't replacing all computers in the house, they're replacing #2, #3
[21:14] <krondor> they passed it to MIT, and MIT looks to be maintaining it to some extent.
[21:14] <krondor> you're right that the industry is moving towards black boxes though.. app stores/canned configs/etc..
[21:15] <rick_h_> but someone is still writing the crap that goes intot he black boxes
[21:15] <brousch> rick_h_: so let's ignore the kids argument. _I_ want to program for android on my tablet. what are my options?
[21:15] <greg-g> brousch: I see the parallels with what you are saying and my experience dealing with the legal community
[21:15] <rick_h_> I don't know about you, but I never downloaded winzip back when I was on windows and changed the source code
[21:15] <krondor> even datacenters are doing it (vblock, hp sql consolidation appliance, etc...)
[21:16] <rick_h_> brousch: and I want to build a fuel injector for my subaru with my woodworking tools in the garage
[21:16] <rick_h_> oh wait...not going to work. Right tools for the job
[21:16] <brousch> that is a lame argument
[21:16] <rick_h_> so is saying that you want to write an app on a tablet.
[21:16] <greg-g> I think it is missing the point, or at least tlaking around it, rick_h_
[21:16] <brousch> this is a thing has a frickin linux kernel
[21:16] <rick_h_> I want to use my tv remote to build a webpage
[21:16] <krondor> brousch:  honestly you're looking at vim w/ scripting layer for android or remote desktop to a real computer for gcc and android SDK
[21:17] <snap-l> my biggest concern is what happens when there's no more checkbook writers out there?
[21:17] <krondor> with optional monitor / keyboard hookup to your android
[21:17] <rick_h_> brousch: then use your ssh client to ssh to a machine with the sdk and enjoy building your app
[21:17] <snap-l> checkbook writing being the people who tinkered with their computer to write a program to balance their checkbook
[21:17] <rick_h_> or brousch, write tools that allow you to output the code via a tablet driven gui
[21:17] <krondor> the gcc port for android is what I would call alpha
[21:17] <snap-l> The itch scratching happens with a credit card, not with a reference card.
[21:17] <rick_h_> right, but the ecosystem is what I'd call alpha
[21:17] <brousch> ok, now lets make that easy enough so lesser programmers can do it
[21:18] <rick_h_> how old is your computer you write programs on? how old is android?
[21:18] <rick_h_> brousch: ok, have fun with that
[21:18] <brousch> i will :P
[21:18] <rick_h_> but seriously, the development ecosystem on computers is decades old
[21:18] <rick_h_> this idea of apps on mobile devices is years old
[21:19] <brousch> come on. it's a java app on an arm processor
[21:19] <krondor> brousch:  People are trying to make it more approachable, but focusing on PCs as the coding device http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1415661
[21:19] <snap-l> I think we lost our way with Java. :)
[21:20] <rick_h_> I just don't think it's an issue
[21:20] <krondor> lots of efforts around automating the dev environment setup for PC since that is what confuses most noobies
[21:20] <rick_h_> most devices you don't dev for them on them
[21:21] <brousch> desktop/laptop
[21:21] <snap-l> Yeah, the PC brought that about
[21:21] <rick_h_> krondor: it's "dev" that confuses most people
[21:21] <rick_h_> not that it's on a pc
[21:21] <snap-l> you used to have to do cross-compilation for the Atari 2600
[21:21] <rick_h_> ask them to write a web app and you get the same thing
[21:21] <krondor> I'm actually really excited to see what young kids are doing with aurdino and raspberrypi will be great too!
[21:22] <brousch> rick_h_'s nay-saying actually has me more fired up to do this
[21:22] <rick_h_> :) my mission is complete
[21:23] <snap-l> pissed off into action
[21:23] <brousch> hah