| === kinoucho` is now known as kinouchou | ||
| Pendulum | A general question to everyone, I'm putting together the things to do usability testing. Do we have a preference in how I split impairments into groups? | 17:06 |
|---|---|---|
| Pendulum | TheMuso AlanBell joanie ^^ | 17:07 |
| AlanBell | Pendulum: by persona? | 17:09 |
| joanie | persona sounds logical to me | 17:10 |
| Pendulum | That could work. In that case I would probably change deaf-partially sighted to just deaf | 17:11 |
| joanie | btw AlanBell earlier I saw you mention that Orca spoke a password. So lemme tell you how that works: | 17:11 |
| joanie | there is an accessible ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT | 17:11 |
| joanie | if that accessible role is exposed properly, Orca should not speak the password | 17:12 |
| joanie | depending on your settings it might say "star star star" to confirm character entry | 17:12 |
| AlanBell | ok, I have a few bugs for lightdm to raise I think | 17:12 |
| joanie | so without looking at it, my guess is taht lightdm has a widget claiming to be ROLE_ENTRY or ROLE_TEXT or ROLE_SOMETHING_ELSE_NOT_PASSWORD_TEXT | 17:12 |
| * joanie looks for the doc | 17:13 | |
| joanie | http://developer.gnome.org/atk/stable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole | 17:13 |
| AlanBell | wow | 17:13 |
| joanie | AlanBell: include that doc in your bug report | 17:13 |
| joanie | to lightdm | 17:13 |
| AlanBell | will do | 17:14 |
| joanie | and request that all widgets in which the text is masked | 17:14 |
| joanie | has ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT | 17:14 |
| joanie | thanks! | 17:14 |
| AlanBell | thanks joanie | 17:14 |
| joanie | btw, what toolkit does lightdm use? (save me the google) | 17:15 |
| joanie | because ideally, the bug should be fixed at the toolkit level | 17:16 |
| joanie | and applications using the toolkit should be able to just set some toolkit-specific, non-a11y property | 17:16 |
| joanie | like "mask the characters with bullets 'cause it's a password" property | 17:16 |
| joanie | and the toolkit itself would ensure that every widget with that not a11y-specific property set, gets exposed as ATK_ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT | 17:17 |
| joanie | AlanBell: ^ | 17:17 |
| AlanBell | could be gtk or qt or something else I think | 17:20 |
| joanie | :) | 17:20 |
| joanie | Gtk+ should already do that correctly | 17:20 |
| joanie | fregl: see above and tell me about Qt please | 17:21 |
| AlanBell | the unity-greeter package is the lightdm engine that we are using, and that depends on libgtk-3-0 so they are probably abusing the widget in a horrible way | 17:23 |
| joanie | ok | 17:23 |
| joanie | unless something broke in Gtk+ 3, maybe it is indeed an app rather than a toolkit bug | 17:24 |
| AlanBell | Bug #944159 | 17:25 |
| ubot2` | Launchpad bug 944159 in unity-greeter "orca reads the password out loud" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944159 | 17:25 |
| * joanie looks | 17:25 | |
| AlanBell | Bug #944161 | 17:28 |
| ubot2` | Launchpad bug 944161 in unity-greeter "orca does not read user names" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944161 | 17:28 |
| joanie | on the second, I commented, but I will need to set up an environment in which to test that myself | 17:32 |
| AlanBell | joanie: one of my side projects is setting up a desktop that can be controlled completely over IRC, so it would be a bot in a channel that goes orca > speech dispatcher > IRC and you would be able to talk back to it to send keys to the desktop | 17:36 |
| joanie | interesting | 17:37 |
| AlanBell | good for showing people what the desktop actually speaks, and possibly for running test scripts against it | 17:37 |
| joanie | once I get a laptop set up, I see what all needs to be done to simplify your providing the debug output I'd need from Orca | 17:38 |
| joanie | once you have a set user, it's easy | 17:38 |
| AlanBell | skaet: bug 878184 might be one you would be interested in tracking | 18:14 |
| ubot2` | Launchpad bug 878184 in unity-greeter "Onscreen Keyboard cannot be used to input password in unity-greeter" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878184 | 18:14 |
| Pendulum | joanie: I'm fairly certain it uses GTK | 18:17 |
| Pendulum | oops, was scrolled up and din't notice | 18:17 |
| Pendulum | yes | 18:17 |
| Pendulum | especially because I was going to test this weekend | 18:18 |
| skaet | AlanBell, yes indeed. thanks! | 18:20 |
| AlanBell | https://bugs.launchpad.net/dbusmenu/+bug/878708 has a branch on it to test | 18:43 |
| ubot2` | Launchpad bug 878708 in dbusmenu "indicator menu items reported as tickboxes by orca" [High,In progress] | 18:43 |
| AlanBell | funnily enough that is about widget roles too | 18:44 |
| joanie | not entirely surprising, really. | 18:51 |
| joanie | We present stuff based on what the stuff is | 18:51 |
| joanie | and sadly we don't yet have a good means to identify real purpose | 18:51 |
| joanie | but we do have widget roles | 18:51 |
| AlanBell | looks like the global menu is an ugly hack altogether, a bunch of checkboxes arranged in a menulike structure | 19:30 |
| joanie | I'm just now installing, but which creature is the global menu? | 19:31 |
| AlanBell | it is a bit mac like. The menus of applications have been ripped out of the application windows and stuffed into the top panel | 19:36 |
| joanie | right | 19:39 |
| joanie | so when you say global menu, is it the first menu in the top panel? | 19:39 |
| joanie | install is almost done | 19:40 |
| joanie | is the crash report dialog not keyboard accessible? | 19:46 |
| joanie | my touchpad is not working at all (though it is detected) | 19:46 |
| joanie | and then gnome-control-center died | 19:46 |
| joanie | and I cannot click on this thing | 19:46 |
| joanie | and I cannot alt+tab to it | 19:46 |
| joanie | aha, crashed again and got focus this time. ;) | 19:48 |
| joanie | damn lost focus. wtf | 19:48 |
| joanie | on a positive note, I can reproduce it | 19:51 |
| AlanBell | joanie: things seem to be a bit more crashy than they were a few weeks ago :( | 20:40 |
| joanie | btw bug 934053 is going to impact keyboard users | 20:42 |
| ubot2` | Launchpad bug 934053 in gnome-control-center "gnome-control-center crashed with SIGSEGV in cc_shell_category_view_get_item_view()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934053 | 20:42 |
| joanie | and btw2, not present in Fedora rawhide | 20:42 |
| joanie | so I don't know if this is an upstream or downstream thing | 20:43 |
| AlanBell | thats a bit rubbish isn't it | 20:44 |
| joanie | ? | 20:44 |
| joanie | I don't mean it in a bad way | 20:44 |
| AlanBell | trying to move between any of the sections in gnome control centre with cursor up or down crashes it | 20:45 |
| joanie | aha | 20:46 |
| joanie | at some point I can set up yet another environment and build the relevant items from master in ubuntu | 20:47 |
| joanie | but right now my goal is to have an environment with shipping/official ubuntu precise + orca from master | 20:47 |
| joanie | so I don't want to "taint" this shiny new install with non-ubuntu shipped stuff that is not orca | 20:48 |
| joanie | anyhoo, I won't change the priority of bugs, but I think this bug is bigger than "medium" | 20:49 |
| * joanie goes back to getting build dependencies | 20:49 | |
| * AlanBell submits a test case for using unity with Orca | 20:57 | |
| TheMuso | AlanBell: The check roles for all menu items in dbusmenu is because dbusmenu uses GtkCheckMenuItem. There is a work-around that can be done in dbusmenu to only set the atk role to ATK_ROLE_CHECK_MENU_ITEM if the menu item is set up as a check menu item, but its just a matter of me getting around to doing it. | 20:59 |
| TheMuso | Its on my list, but I am currently in the middle of bisecting GTK to try and find a commit that broke GtkTreeViewColumn code causing ubiquity's advanced partitioner to die whenever accessibility is loaded, i.e atk-bridge. | 20:59 |
| joanie | wait ... so..... | 20:59 |
| joanie | dbusmenu uses GtkCheckMenuItem for things which are not functionally CheckMenuItem's? | 21:00 |
| TheMuso | joanie: Yes, because the design didn't think of a11y at first, so it was whatever works visually. | 21:00 |
| * joanie nods | 21:00 | |
| AlanBell | indeed, because if they look the same thats good enough | 21:00 |
| TheMuso | And its a bit of a pain to change that now... | 21:00 |
| TheMuso | So easier to aply the work-around I mentioned. | 21:01 |
| joanie | we need to write a best practices guide (seriously and it's on my list) | 21:01 |
| joanie | oh sure re the work-around | 21:01 |
| joanie | but this is a perfect example: EITHER the developer doesn't do that OR here's how you work around it (i.e. change the role in the app-level) | 21:01 |
| TheMuso | Yeah, we shouldn't really be dealing with roles, unless we are wrapping a toolkit ourselves. | 21:02 |
| TheMuso | Speaking of which... | 21:02 |
| TheMuso | I am starting to regret not pushing the DX team harder to wrap Nux with atk rather than unity itself, and I am surprised Alejandro didn't push harder as well... | 21:03 |
| joanie | ya know, there's a reason why he didn't | 21:03 |
| joanie | but I don't recall what it is | 21:03 |
| joanie | but he gave it to me | 21:03 |
| joanie | so when he's back... ask him | 21:03 |
| joanie | (he's on holiday until monday) | 21:03 |
| TheMuso | I say this because we have the hud, which is not accessible. Why, because its a new window in unity that needs to be wrapped in atk. Its using the same widgets as the unity dash, but because its a different object in unity's code, it has no unity atk equivalent. | 21:03 |
| TheMuso | joanie: Fair enough, but I feel its causing us more grief than its worth. | 21:04 |
| AlanBell | I poked gord about that within seconds of it being announced | 21:04 |
| joanie | yeah, I don't understand it, but like I said, I've asked and he did have a reason | 21:04 |
| AlanBell | trouble is the first we know about stuff like that is seconds after it is announced | 21:04 |
| joanie | and it seemed good at the time, I just forget what it is | 21:04 |
| * joanie nods | 21:04 | |
| TheMuso | So for that reason I am pushing Unity 2D as the most accessible of unity environments atm, we just need to get quicklists working. | 21:04 |
| TheMuso | joanie: Fair enough./ | 21:04 |
| joanie | and what exactly is "the hud"? | 21:05 |
| TheMuso | And unfortunately my QML knowledge is next to none. | 21:05 |
| joanie | you have more than I do then :) | 21:05 |
| TheMuso | The Hud is basically a menu search system. You can search through all your menu items to find what you are looking for, this includes indicators as well. | 21:06 |
| joanie | how do you invoke it | 21:10 |
| joanie | as an aside, this is awesome: there is a command 'huh' from a package 'orville-write' | 21:11 |
| joanie | I wish I were clever with package names like that | 21:11 |
| TheMuso | Press the alt key I think. | 21:11 |
| maco | HUD = Heads Up Display, like all the bits around the edges in video games giving you stats about the character you're about to shoot | 21:11 |
| joanie | ah | 21:11 |
| AlanBell | maco: now it makes sense to me! I had no idea it was a game thing | 21:12 |
| * joanie feels smarter now | 21:12 | |
| maco | i think there are real ones in the military too | 21:12 |
| AlanBell | well apart from flight sim games | 21:12 |
| maco | but that could just be movies ;) | 21:13 |
| AlanBell | they are real, it is an upwards facing display with an angled glass as a partial mirror or the glass of the cockpit window | 21:13 |
| AlanBell | we have a customer that makes the displays for them | 21:14 |
| maco | fancy | 21:16 |
| joanie | silly question: are items supposed to disappear from the search when you type their full name? | 21:24 |
| joanie | sometimes I type too fast and then poof! it's gone | 21:24 |
| TheMuso | Not sure. | 21:24 |
| TheMuso | I avoid the hud, for obvious reasons. | 21:24 |
| joanie | this is alt+f2 | 21:25 |
| joanie | old habit of mine | 21:25 |
| TheMuso | Oh ok. | 21:25 |
| TheMuso | Do you mean full name as in the full command? Or the actual long name of the app? | 21:25 |
| joanie | and something I cannot explain but is true is that my brain to finger connection is much faster than my brain-to-eye connection | 21:25 |
| joanie | actual long name | 21:26 |
| joanie | like 'gnome-terminal' | 21:26 |
| joanie | mind you, whatever gnome-terminal.wrapper is still is there, but with the cog icon | 21:26 |
| TheMuso | Right. | 21:26 |
| joanie | so it's easy enough to say "just don't type so much" :) | 21:26 |
| joanie | but I find it odd that it disappears as soon as I type its name | 21:26 |
| TheMuso | eems to work ok here. | 21:27 |
| TheMuso | seems | 21:27 |
| joanie | even if you type the full name? | 21:27 |
| TheMuso | As in, I type movie player, and movie player shows and stays visible. | 21:27 |
| * joanie tries | 21:27 | |
| joanie | i don't have that app I guess | 21:27 |
| * joanie tries another name | 21:27 | |
| joanie | yeah, if I type rhythbox, it goes away with the x | 21:28 |
| maco | i think gnome-terminal is the full command | 21:28 |
| joanie | but 'rhythmbox-client' stays visible | 21:28 |
| joanie | yeah, it is | 21:28 |
| maco | whereas that thing is searching the name, so it'd want gnome terminal, with a space? | 21:28 |
| maco | oh hrmph @ rhythmbox | 21:28 |
| joanie | oh well | 21:29 |
| joanie | I think maybe it's looking one character beyond the search string | 21:29 |
| joanie | once the stuff I need is in my dash I will be fine | 21:29 |
| TheMuso | Your launcher is even better. | 21:30 |
| joanie | is that what it's called | 21:30 |
| TheMuso | Unless you find it quicker to just search... | 21:31 |
| joanie | the thing on the left | 21:31 |
| TheMuso | Which I do actually. | 21:31 |
| TheMuso | Right, thats the launcher. | 21:31 |
| joanie | ah | 21:31 |
| joanie | in gnome-shell | 21:31 |
| joanie | the launcher like thing on the left in overview is called the dash | 21:31 |
| TheMuso | Right. | 21:33 |
| AlanBell | joanie: yes, the HUD does currently penalise people who can type | 21:37 |
| AlanBell | it is getting better, but still if you type a correct word and press space it takes the right answer away from you! | 21:37 |
| TheMuso | AlanBell: Seems Ted beat me to it, he has a proposed fix for the checkmenu item role issue. | 21:52 |
| AlanBell | TheMuso: yes, installing it now | 21:53 |
| TheMuso | Cool. | 21:54 |
| TheMuso | AlanBell: Note that you may not hear Orca speak any menu items, with the exception of network name menu items in network-manager, due to a change I made to dbusmenu to respect atk docs, and finding out that gtk does not yet respect sed docs. :) | 21:55 |
| TheMuso | I have a proposed fix in th emerge queue for it. | 21:56 |
| TheMuso | Which involves violating atk docs, at least for now till GTK is fixed. | 21:56 |
| AlanBell | joanie: why does orca have a splashscreen? | 22:10 |
| TheMuso | AlanBell: TO work around focus issues. | 22:27 |
| AlanBell | hmm | 22:27 |
| AlanBell | when lightdm starts orca says hello, I start typing my password and the first few letters go to the splashscreen before I can type in the password field | 22:28 |
| AlanBell | and it occurred to me that the splashscreen is an odd thing for a screenreader to have | 22:28 |
| TheMuso | Urm, the splash screen should not be showing in unity-greeter. | 22:34 |
| AlanBell | ok, is that a unity-greeter bug then? | 22:38 |
| joanie | TheMuso: we had to change the desktop autostart file | 22:38 |
| joanie | for the new cli flag parser | 22:39 |
| joanie | if you are keeping your old autostart file | 22:39 |
| joanie | you might see the splash screen | 22:39 |
| joanie | TheMuso: http://git.gnome.org/browse/orca/commit/?id=1d162c35b1dff4c9b03cbf8a1707d15949ae56dd | 22:40 |
| TheMuso | joanie: Yeah I am aware of that, and updated my patch accordingly, but I think the unity-greeter code needs tweaking. I'll take care of that. | 22:47 |
| TheMuso | AlanBell: I'll take care of it. | 22:47 |
| TheMuso | Sometimes these things are solved more quickly just by working on the code yourself, and I know the code well enough to know exactly what needs changing, and where. | 22:48 |
| AlanBell | great, thanks TheMuso | 22:51 |
| TheMuso | lp:~themuso/unity-greeter/fix-orca-cmdline-syntax - Merge proposed. | 22:54 |
| TheMuso | Damn I love vala! | 22:59 |
| * AlanBell shudders | 23:02 | |
| AlanBell | all those crazy little c files that turn up | 23:02 |
| TheMuso | Yeah but writing vala is not as bad as having to write gobject C at times. | 23:02 |
| AlanBell | yeah, just wish it was a real compiler for vala rather than going via c | 23:03 |
| AlanBell | took me ages to work out that I shouldn't edit the c files to fix the error messages | 23:03 |
| TheMuso | heh right. | 23:06 |
| TheMuso | Well if you work in the vcs directly, like unity-greeter, you will note the .c files are not kept around there. | 23:06 |
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