=== kinoucho` is now known as kinouchou [17:06] A general question to everyone, I'm putting together the things to do usability testing. Do we have a preference in how I split impairments into groups? [17:07] TheMuso AlanBell joanie ^^ [17:09] Pendulum: by persona? [17:10] persona sounds logical to me [17:11] That could work. In that case I would probably change deaf-partially sighted to just deaf [17:11] btw AlanBell earlier I saw you mention that Orca spoke a password. So lemme tell you how that works: [17:11] there is an accessible ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT [17:12] if that accessible role is exposed properly, Orca should not speak the password [17:12] depending on your settings it might say "star star star" to confirm character entry [17:12] ok, I have a few bugs for lightdm to raise I think [17:12] so without looking at it, my guess is taht lightdm has a widget claiming to be ROLE_ENTRY or ROLE_TEXT or ROLE_SOMETHING_ELSE_NOT_PASSWORD_TEXT [17:13] * joanie looks for the doc [17:13] http://developer.gnome.org/atk/stable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole [17:13] wow [17:13] AlanBell: include that doc in your bug report [17:13] to lightdm [17:14] will do [17:14] and request that all widgets in which the text is masked [17:14] has ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT [17:14] thanks! [17:14] thanks joanie [17:15] btw, what toolkit does lightdm use? (save me the google) [17:16] because ideally, the bug should be fixed at the toolkit level [17:16] and applications using the toolkit should be able to just set some toolkit-specific, non-a11y property [17:16] like "mask the characters with bullets 'cause it's a password" property [17:17] and the toolkit itself would ensure that every widget with that not a11y-specific property set, gets exposed as ATK_ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT [17:17] AlanBell: ^ [17:20] could be gtk or qt or something else I think [17:20] :) [17:20] Gtk+ should already do that correctly [17:21] fregl: see above and tell me about Qt please [17:23] the unity-greeter package is the lightdm engine that we are using, and that depends on libgtk-3-0 so they are probably abusing the widget in a horrible way [17:23] ok [17:24] unless something broke in Gtk+ 3, maybe it is indeed an app rather than a toolkit bug [17:25] Bug #944159 [17:25] Launchpad bug 944159 in unity-greeter "orca reads the password out loud" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944159 [17:25] * joanie looks [17:28] Bug #944161 [17:28] Launchpad bug 944161 in unity-greeter "orca does not read user names" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944161 [17:32] on the second, I commented, but I will need to set up an environment in which to test that myself [17:36] joanie: one of my side projects is setting up a desktop that can be controlled completely over IRC, so it would be a bot in a channel that goes orca > speech dispatcher > IRC and you would be able to talk back to it to send keys to the desktop [17:37] interesting [17:37] good for showing people what the desktop actually speaks, and possibly for running test scripts against it [17:38] once I get a laptop set up, I see what all needs to be done to simplify your providing the debug output I'd need from Orca [17:38] once you have a set user, it's easy [18:14] skaet: bug 878184 might be one you would be interested in tracking [18:14] Launchpad bug 878184 in unity-greeter "Onscreen Keyboard cannot be used to input password in unity-greeter" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878184 [18:17] joanie: I'm fairly certain it uses GTK [18:17] oops, was scrolled up and din't notice [18:17] yes [18:18] especially because I was going to test this weekend [18:20] AlanBell, yes indeed. thanks! [18:43] https://bugs.launchpad.net/dbusmenu/+bug/878708 has a branch on it to test [18:43] Launchpad bug 878708 in dbusmenu "indicator menu items reported as tickboxes by orca" [High,In progress] [18:44] funnily enough that is about widget roles too [18:51] not entirely surprising, really. [18:51] We present stuff based on what the stuff is [18:51] and sadly we don't yet have a good means to identify real purpose [18:51] but we do have widget roles [19:30] looks like the global menu is an ugly hack altogether, a bunch of checkboxes arranged in a menulike structure [19:31] I'm just now installing, but which creature is the global menu? [19:36] it is a bit mac like. The menus of applications have been ripped out of the application windows and stuffed into the top panel [19:39] right [19:39] so when you say global menu, is it the first menu in the top panel? [19:40] install is almost done [19:46] is the crash report dialog not keyboard accessible? [19:46] my touchpad is not working at all (though it is detected) [19:46] and then gnome-control-center died [19:46] and I cannot click on this thing [19:46] and I cannot alt+tab to it [19:48] aha, crashed again and got focus this time. ;) [19:48] damn lost focus. wtf [19:51] on a positive note, I can reproduce it [20:40] joanie: things seem to be a bit more crashy than they were a few weeks ago :( [20:42] btw bug 934053 is going to impact keyboard users [20:42] Launchpad bug 934053 in gnome-control-center "gnome-control-center crashed with SIGSEGV in cc_shell_category_view_get_item_view()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934053 [20:42] and btw2, not present in Fedora rawhide [20:43] so I don't know if this is an upstream or downstream thing [20:44] thats a bit rubbish isn't it [20:44] ? [20:44] I don't mean it in a bad way [20:45] trying to move between any of the sections in gnome control centre with cursor up or down crashes it [20:46] aha [20:47] at some point I can set up yet another environment and build the relevant items from master in ubuntu [20:47] but right now my goal is to have an environment with shipping/official ubuntu precise + orca from master [20:48] so I don't want to "taint" this shiny new install with non-ubuntu shipped stuff that is not orca [20:49] anyhoo, I won't change the priority of bugs, but I think this bug is bigger than "medium" [20:49] * joanie goes back to getting build dependencies [20:57] * AlanBell submits a test case for using unity with Orca [20:59] AlanBell: The check roles for all menu items in dbusmenu is because dbusmenu uses GtkCheckMenuItem. There is a work-around that can be done in dbusmenu to only set the atk role to ATK_ROLE_CHECK_MENU_ITEM if the menu item is set up as a check menu item, but its just a matter of me getting around to doing it. [20:59] Its on my list, but I am currently in the middle of bisecting GTK to try and find a commit that broke GtkTreeViewColumn code causing ubiquity's advanced partitioner to die whenever accessibility is loaded, i.e atk-bridge. [20:59] wait ... so..... [21:00] dbusmenu uses GtkCheckMenuItem for things which are not functionally CheckMenuItem's? [21:00] joanie: Yes, because the design didn't think of a11y at first, so it was whatever works visually. [21:00] * joanie nods [21:00] indeed, because if they look the same thats good enough [21:00] And its a bit of a pain to change that now... [21:01] So easier to aply the work-around I mentioned. [21:01] we need to write a best practices guide (seriously and it's on my list) [21:01] oh sure re the work-around [21:01] but this is a perfect example: EITHER the developer doesn't do that OR here's how you work around it (i.e. change the role in the app-level) [21:02] Yeah, we shouldn't really be dealing with roles, unless we are wrapping a toolkit ourselves. [21:02] Speaking of which... [21:03] I am starting to regret not pushing the DX team harder to wrap Nux with atk rather than unity itself, and I am surprised Alejandro didn't push harder as well... [21:03] ya know, there's a reason why he didn't [21:03] but I don't recall what it is [21:03] but he gave it to me [21:03] so when he's back... ask him [21:03] (he's on holiday until monday) [21:03] I say this because we have the hud, which is not accessible. Why, because its a new window in unity that needs to be wrapped in atk. Its using the same widgets as the unity dash, but because its a different object in unity's code, it has no unity atk equivalent. [21:04] joanie: Fair enough, but I feel its causing us more grief than its worth. [21:04] I poked gord about that within seconds of it being announced [21:04] yeah, I don't understand it, but like I said, I've asked and he did have a reason [21:04] trouble is the first we know about stuff like that is seconds after it is announced [21:04] and it seemed good at the time, I just forget what it is [21:04] * joanie nods [21:04] So for that reason I am pushing Unity 2D as the most accessible of unity environments atm, we just need to get quicklists working. [21:04] joanie: Fair enough./ [21:05] and what exactly is "the hud"? [21:05] And unfortunately my QML knowledge is next to none. [21:05] you have more than I do then :) [21:06] The Hud is basically a menu search system. You can search through all your menu items to find what you are looking for, this includes indicators as well. [21:10] how do you invoke it [21:11] as an aside, this is awesome: there is a command 'huh' from a package 'orville-write' [21:11] I wish I were clever with package names like that [21:11] Press the alt key I think. [21:11] HUD = Heads Up Display, like all the bits around the edges in video games giving you stats about the character you're about to shoot [21:11] ah [21:12] maco: now it makes sense to me! I had no idea it was a game thing [21:12] * joanie feels smarter now [21:12] i think there are real ones in the military too [21:12] well apart from flight sim games [21:13] but that could just be movies ;) [21:13] they are real, it is an upwards facing display with an angled glass as a partial mirror or the glass of the cockpit window [21:14] we have a customer that makes the displays for them [21:16] fancy [21:24] silly question: are items supposed to disappear from the search when you type their full name? [21:24] sometimes I type too fast and then poof! it's gone [21:24] Not sure. [21:24] I avoid the hud, for obvious reasons. [21:25] this is alt+f2 [21:25] old habit of mine [21:25] Oh ok. [21:25] Do you mean full name as in the full command? Or the actual long name of the app? [21:25] and something I cannot explain but is true is that my brain to finger connection is much faster than my brain-to-eye connection [21:26] actual long name [21:26] like 'gnome-terminal' [21:26] mind you, whatever gnome-terminal.wrapper is still is there, but with the cog icon [21:26] Right. [21:26] so it's easy enough to say "just don't type so much" :) [21:26] but I find it odd that it disappears as soon as I type its name [21:27] eems to work ok here. [21:27] seems [21:27] even if you type the full name? [21:27] As in, I type movie player, and movie player shows and stays visible. [21:27] * joanie tries [21:27] i don't have that app I guess [21:27] * joanie tries another name [21:28] yeah, if I type rhythbox, it goes away with the x [21:28] i think gnome-terminal is the full command [21:28] but 'rhythmbox-client' stays visible [21:28] yeah, it is [21:28] whereas that thing is searching the name, so it'd want gnome terminal, with a space? [21:28] oh hrmph @ rhythmbox [21:29] oh well [21:29] I think maybe it's looking one character beyond the search string [21:29] once the stuff I need is in my dash I will be fine [21:30] Your launcher is even better. [21:30] is that what it's called [21:31] Unless you find it quicker to just search... [21:31] the thing on the left [21:31] Which I do actually. [21:31] Right, thats the launcher. [21:31] ah [21:31] in gnome-shell [21:31] the launcher like thing on the left in overview is called the dash [21:33] Right. [21:37] joanie: yes, the HUD does currently penalise people who can type [21:37] it is getting better, but still if you type a correct word and press space it takes the right answer away from you! [21:52] AlanBell: Seems Ted beat me to it, he has a proposed fix for the checkmenu item role issue. [21:53] TheMuso: yes, installing it now [21:54] Cool. [21:55] AlanBell: Note that you may not hear Orca speak any menu items, with the exception of network name menu items in network-manager, due to a change I made to dbusmenu to respect atk docs, and finding out that gtk does not yet respect sed docs. :) [21:56] I have a proposed fix in th emerge queue for it. [21:56] Which involves violating atk docs, at least for now till GTK is fixed. [22:10] joanie: why does orca have a splashscreen? [22:27] AlanBell: TO work around focus issues. [22:27] hmm [22:28] when lightdm starts orca says hello, I start typing my password and the first few letters go to the splashscreen before I can type in the password field [22:28] and it occurred to me that the splashscreen is an odd thing for a screenreader to have [22:34] Urm, the splash screen should not be showing in unity-greeter. [22:38] ok, is that a unity-greeter bug then? [22:38] TheMuso: we had to change the desktop autostart file [22:39] for the new cli flag parser [22:39] if you are keeping your old autostart file [22:39] you might see the splash screen [22:40] TheMuso: http://git.gnome.org/browse/orca/commit/?id=1d162c35b1dff4c9b03cbf8a1707d15949ae56dd [22:47] joanie: Yeah I am aware of that, and updated my patch accordingly, but I think the unity-greeter code needs tweaking. I'll take care of that. [22:47] AlanBell: I'll take care of it. [22:48] Sometimes these things are solved more quickly just by working on the code yourself, and I know the code well enough to know exactly what needs changing, and where. [22:51] great, thanks TheMuso [22:54] lp:~themuso/unity-greeter/fix-orca-cmdline-syntax - Merge proposed. [22:59] Damn I love vala! [23:02] * AlanBell shudders [23:02] all those crazy little c files that turn up [23:02] Yeah but writing vala is not as bad as having to write gobject C at times. [23:03] yeah, just wish it was a real compiler for vala rather than going via c [23:03] took me ages to work out that I shouldn't edit the c files to fix the error messages [23:06] heh right. [23:06] Well if you work in the vcs directly, like unity-greeter, you will note the .c files are not kept around there.