[17:06] <Pendulum> A general question to everyone, I'm putting together the things to do usability testing. Do we have a preference in how I split impairments into groups?
[17:07] <Pendulum> TheMuso AlanBell joanie ^^
[17:09] <AlanBell> Pendulum: by persona?
[17:10] <joanie> persona sounds logical to me
[17:11] <Pendulum> That could work. In that case I would probably change deaf-partially sighted to just deaf
[17:11] <joanie> btw AlanBell earlier I saw you mention that Orca spoke a password. So lemme tell you how that works:
[17:11] <joanie> there is an accessible ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT
[17:12] <joanie> if that accessible role is exposed properly, Orca should not speak the password
[17:12] <joanie> depending on your settings it might say "star star star" to confirm character entry
[17:12] <AlanBell> ok, I have a few bugs for lightdm to raise I think
[17:12] <joanie> so without looking at it, my guess is taht lightdm has a widget claiming to be ROLE_ENTRY or ROLE_TEXT or ROLE_SOMETHING_ELSE_NOT_PASSWORD_TEXT
[17:13]  * joanie looks for the doc
[17:13] <joanie> http://developer.gnome.org/atk/stable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole
[17:13] <AlanBell> wow
[17:13] <joanie> AlanBell: include that doc in your bug report
[17:13] <joanie> to lightdm
[17:14] <AlanBell> will do
[17:14] <joanie> and request that all widgets in which the text is masked
[17:14] <joanie> has ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT
[17:14] <joanie> thanks!
[17:14] <AlanBell> thanks joanie 
[17:15] <joanie> btw, what toolkit does lightdm use? (save me the google)
[17:16] <joanie> because ideally, the bug should be fixed at the toolkit level
[17:16] <joanie> and applications using the toolkit should be able to just set some toolkit-specific, non-a11y property
[17:16] <joanie> like "mask the characters with bullets 'cause it's a password" property
[17:17] <joanie> and the toolkit itself would ensure that every widget with that not a11y-specific property set, gets exposed as ATK_ROLE_PASSWORD_TEXT
[17:17] <joanie> AlanBell: ^
[17:20] <AlanBell> could be gtk or qt or something else I think
[17:20] <joanie> :)
[17:20] <joanie> Gtk+ should already do that correctly
[17:21] <joanie> fregl: see above and tell me about Qt please
[17:23] <AlanBell> the unity-greeter package is the lightdm engine that we are using, and that depends on libgtk-3-0 so they are probably abusing the widget in a horrible way
[17:23] <joanie> ok
[17:24] <joanie> unless something broke in Gtk+ 3, maybe it is indeed an app rather than a toolkit bug
[17:25] <AlanBell> Bug #944159 
[17:25] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 944159 in unity-greeter "orca reads the password out loud" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944159
[17:25]  * joanie looks
[17:28] <AlanBell> Bug #944161
[17:28] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 944161 in unity-greeter "orca does not read user names" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944161
[17:32] <joanie> on the second, I commented, but I will need to set up an environment in which to test that myself
[17:36] <AlanBell> joanie: one of my side projects is setting up a desktop that can be controlled completely over IRC, so it would be a bot in a channel that goes orca > speech dispatcher > IRC  and you would be able to talk back to it to send keys to the desktop
[17:37] <joanie> interesting
[17:37] <AlanBell> good for showing people what the desktop actually speaks, and possibly for running test scripts against it
[17:38] <joanie> once I get a laptop set up, I see what all needs to be done to simplify your providing the debug output I'd need from Orca
[17:38] <joanie> once you have a set user, it's easy
[18:14] <AlanBell> skaet: bug 878184 might be one you would be interested in tracking
[18:14] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 878184 in unity-greeter "Onscreen Keyboard cannot be used to input password in unity-greeter" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878184
[18:17] <Pendulum> joanie: I'm fairly certain it uses GTK
[18:17] <Pendulum> oops, was scrolled up and din't notice
[18:17] <Pendulum> yes
[18:18] <Pendulum> especially because I was going to test this weekend
[18:20] <skaet> AlanBell,  yes indeed.  thanks!
[18:43] <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/dbusmenu/+bug/878708 has a branch on it to test
[18:43] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 878708 in dbusmenu "indicator menu items reported as tickboxes by orca" [High,In progress]
[18:44] <AlanBell> funnily enough that is about widget roles too
[18:51] <joanie> not entirely surprising, really.
[18:51] <joanie> We present stuff based on what the stuff is
[18:51] <joanie> and sadly we don't yet have a good means to identify real purpose
[18:51] <joanie> but we do have widget roles
[19:30] <AlanBell> looks like the global menu is an ugly hack altogether, a bunch of checkboxes arranged in a menulike structure
[19:31] <joanie> I'm just now installing, but which creature is the global menu?
[19:36] <AlanBell> it is a bit mac like. The menus of applications have been ripped out of the application windows and stuffed into the top panel
[19:39] <joanie> right
[19:39] <joanie> so when you say global menu, is it the first menu in the top panel?
[19:40] <joanie> install is almost done
[19:46] <joanie> is the crash report dialog not keyboard accessible? 
[19:46] <joanie> my touchpad is not working at all (though it is detected)
[19:46] <joanie> and then gnome-control-center died
[19:46] <joanie> and I cannot click on this thing
[19:46] <joanie> and I cannot alt+tab to it
[19:48] <joanie> aha, crashed again and got focus this time. ;)
[19:48] <joanie> damn lost focus. wtf
[19:51] <joanie> on a positive note, I can reproduce it
[20:40] <AlanBell> joanie: things seem to be a bit more crashy than they were a few weeks ago :(
[20:42] <joanie> btw bug 934053 is going to impact keyboard users
[20:42] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 934053 in gnome-control-center "gnome-control-center crashed with SIGSEGV in cc_shell_category_view_get_item_view()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/934053
[20:42] <joanie> and btw2, not present in Fedora rawhide
[20:43] <joanie> so I don't know if this is an upstream or downstream thing
[20:44] <AlanBell> thats a bit rubbish isn't it
[20:44] <joanie> ?
[20:44] <joanie> I don't mean it in a bad way
[20:45] <AlanBell> trying to move between any of the sections in gnome control centre with cursor up or down crashes it 
[20:46] <joanie> aha
[20:47] <joanie> at some point I can set up yet another environment and build the relevant items from master in ubuntu
[20:47] <joanie> but right now my goal is to have an environment with shipping/official ubuntu precise + orca from master
[20:48] <joanie> so I don't want to "taint" this shiny new install with non-ubuntu shipped stuff that is not orca
[20:49] <joanie> anyhoo, I won't change the priority of bugs, but I think this bug is bigger than "medium"
[20:49]  * joanie goes back to getting build dependencies
[20:57]  * AlanBell submits a test case for using unity with Orca
[20:59] <TheMuso> AlanBell: The check roles for all menu items in dbusmenu is because dbusmenu uses GtkCheckMenuItem. There is a work-around that can be done in dbusmenu to only set the atk role to ATK_ROLE_CHECK_MENU_ITEM if the menu item is set up as a check menu item, but its just a matter of me getting around to doing it.
[20:59] <TheMuso> Its on my list, but I am currently in the middle of bisecting GTK to try and find a commit that broke GtkTreeViewColumn code causing ubiquity's advanced partitioner to die whenever accessibility is loaded, i.e atk-bridge.
[20:59] <joanie> wait ... so.....
[21:00] <joanie> dbusmenu uses GtkCheckMenuItem for things which are not functionally CheckMenuItem's?
[21:00] <TheMuso> joanie: Yes, because the design didn't think of a11y at first, so it was whatever works visually.
[21:00]  * joanie nods
[21:00] <AlanBell> indeed, because if they look the same thats good enough
[21:00] <TheMuso> And its a bit of a pain to change that now...
[21:01] <TheMuso> So easier to aply the work-around I mentioned.
[21:01] <joanie> we need to write a best practices guide (seriously and it's on my list)
[21:01] <joanie> oh sure re the work-around
[21:01] <joanie> but this is a perfect example: EITHER the developer doesn't do that OR here's how you work around it (i.e. change the role in the app-level)
[21:02] <TheMuso> Yeah, we shouldn't really be dealing with roles, unless we are wrapping a toolkit ourselves.
[21:02] <TheMuso> Speaking of which...
[21:03] <TheMuso> I am starting to regret not pushing the DX team harder to wrap Nux with atk rather than unity itself, and I am surprised Alejandro didn't push harder as well...
[21:03] <joanie> ya know, there's a reason why he didn't
[21:03] <joanie> but I don't recall what it is
[21:03] <joanie> but he gave it to me
[21:03] <joanie> so when he's back... ask him
[21:03] <joanie> (he's on holiday until monday)
[21:03] <TheMuso> I say this because we have the hud, which is not accessible. Why, because its a new window in unity that needs to be wrapped in atk. Its using the same widgets as the unity dash, but because its a different object in unity's code, it has no unity atk equivalent.
[21:04] <TheMuso> joanie: Fair enough, but I feel its causing us more grief than its worth.
[21:04] <AlanBell> I poked gord about that within seconds of it being announced
[21:04] <joanie> yeah, I don't understand it, but like I said, I've asked and he did have a reason
[21:04] <AlanBell> trouble is the first we know about stuff like that is seconds after it is announced
[21:04] <joanie> and it seemed good at the time, I just forget what it is
[21:04]  * joanie nods
[21:04] <TheMuso> So for that reason I am pushing Unity 2D as the most accessible of unity environments atm, we just need to get quicklists working.
[21:04] <TheMuso> joanie: Fair enough./
[21:05] <joanie> and what exactly is "the hud"?
[21:05] <TheMuso> And unfortunately my QML knowledge is next to none.
[21:05] <joanie> you have more than I do then :)
[21:06] <TheMuso> The Hud is basically a menu search system. You can search through all your menu items to find what you are looking for, this includes indicators as well.
[21:10] <joanie> how do you invoke it
[21:11] <joanie> as an aside, this is awesome: there is a command 'huh' from a package 'orville-write'
[21:11] <joanie> I wish I were clever with package names like that
[21:11] <TheMuso> Press the alt key I think.
[21:11] <maco> HUD = Heads Up Display, like all the bits around the edges in video games giving you stats about the character you're about to shoot
[21:11] <joanie> ah
[21:12] <AlanBell> maco: now it makes sense to me! I had no idea it was a game thing
[21:12]  * joanie feels smarter now
[21:12] <maco> i think there are real ones in the military too
[21:12] <AlanBell> well apart from flight sim games
[21:13] <maco> but that could just be movies ;)
[21:13] <AlanBell> they are real, it is an upwards facing display with an angled glass as a partial mirror or the glass of the cockpit window
[21:14] <AlanBell> we have a customer that makes the displays for them
[21:16] <maco> fancy
[21:24] <joanie> silly question: are items supposed to disappear from the search when you type their full name?
[21:24] <joanie> sometimes I type too fast and then poof! it's gone
[21:24] <TheMuso> Not sure.
[21:24] <TheMuso> I avoid the hud, for obvious reasons.
[21:25] <joanie> this is alt+f2
[21:25] <joanie> old habit of mine
[21:25] <TheMuso> Oh ok.
[21:25] <TheMuso> Do you mean full name as in the full command? Or the actual long name of the app?
[21:25] <joanie> and something I cannot explain but is true is that my brain to finger connection is much faster than my brain-to-eye connection
[21:26] <joanie> actual long name
[21:26] <joanie> like 'gnome-terminal'
[21:26] <joanie> mind you, whatever gnome-terminal.wrapper is still is there, but with the cog icon
[21:26] <TheMuso> Right.
[21:26] <joanie> so it's easy enough to say "just don't type so much" :)
[21:26] <joanie> but I find it odd that it disappears as soon as I type its name
[21:27] <TheMuso> eems to work ok here.
[21:27] <TheMuso> seems
[21:27] <joanie> even if you type the full name?
[21:27] <TheMuso> As in, I type movie player, and movie player shows and stays visible.
[21:27]  * joanie tries
[21:27] <joanie> i don't have that app I guess
[21:27]  * joanie tries another name
[21:28] <joanie> yeah, if I type rhythbox, it goes away with the x
[21:28] <maco> i think gnome-terminal is the full command
[21:28] <joanie> but 'rhythmbox-client' stays visible
[21:28] <joanie> yeah, it is
[21:28] <maco> whereas that thing is searching the name, so it'd want gnome terminal, with a space?
[21:28] <maco> oh hrmph @ rhythmbox
[21:29] <joanie> oh well
[21:29] <joanie> I think maybe it's looking one character beyond the search string
[21:29] <joanie> once the stuff I need is in my dash I will be fine
[21:30] <TheMuso> Your launcher is even better.
[21:30] <joanie> is that what it's called
[21:31] <TheMuso> Unless you find it quicker to just search...
[21:31] <joanie> the thing on the left
[21:31] <TheMuso> Which I do actually.
[21:31] <TheMuso> Right, thats the launcher.
[21:31] <joanie> ah
[21:31] <joanie> in gnome-shell
[21:31] <joanie> the launcher like thing on the left in overview is called the dash
[21:33] <TheMuso> Right.
[21:37] <AlanBell> joanie: yes, the HUD does currently penalise people who can type
[21:37] <AlanBell> it is getting better, but still if you type a correct word and press space it takes the right answer away from you!
[21:52] <TheMuso> AlanBell: Seems Ted beat me to it, he has a proposed fix for the checkmenu item role issue.
[21:53] <AlanBell> TheMuso: yes, installing it now
[21:54] <TheMuso> Cool.
[21:55] <TheMuso> AlanBell: Note that you may not hear Orca speak any menu items, with the exception of network name menu items in network-manager, due to a change I made to dbusmenu to respect atk docs, and finding out that gtk does not yet respect sed docs. :)
[21:56] <TheMuso> I have a proposed fix in th emerge queue for it.
[21:56] <TheMuso> Which involves violating atk docs, at least for now till GTK is fixed.
[22:10] <AlanBell> joanie: why does orca have a splashscreen?
[22:27] <TheMuso> AlanBell: TO work around focus issues.
[22:27] <AlanBell> hmm
[22:28] <AlanBell> when lightdm starts orca says hello, I start typing my password and the first few letters go to the splashscreen before I can type in the password field
[22:28] <AlanBell> and it occurred to me that the splashscreen is an odd thing for a screenreader to have
[22:34] <TheMuso> Urm, the splash screen should not be showing in unity-greeter.
[22:38] <AlanBell> ok, is that a unity-greeter bug then?
[22:38] <joanie> TheMuso: we had to change the desktop autostart file
[22:39] <joanie> for the new cli flag parser
[22:39] <joanie> if you are keeping your old autostart file
[22:39] <joanie> you might see the splash screen
[22:40] <joanie> TheMuso: http://git.gnome.org/browse/orca/commit/?id=1d162c35b1dff4c9b03cbf8a1707d15949ae56dd
[22:47] <TheMuso> joanie: Yeah I am aware of that, and updated my patch accordingly, but I think the unity-greeter code needs tweaking. I'll take care of that.
[22:47] <TheMuso> AlanBell: I'll take care of it.
[22:48] <TheMuso> Sometimes these things are solved more quickly just by working on the code yourself, and I know the code well enough to know exactly what needs changing, and where.
[22:51] <AlanBell> great, thanks TheMuso 
[22:54] <TheMuso> lp:~themuso/unity-greeter/fix-orca-cmdline-syntax - Merge proposed.
[22:59] <TheMuso> Damn I love vala!
[23:02]  * AlanBell shudders
[23:02] <AlanBell> all those crazy little c files that turn up
[23:02] <TheMuso> Yeah but writing vala is not as bad as having to write gobject C at times.
[23:03] <AlanBell> yeah, just wish it was a real compiler for vala rather than going via c
[23:03] <AlanBell> took me ages to work out that I shouldn't edit the c files to fix the error messages
[23:06] <TheMuso> heh right.
[23:06] <TheMuso> Well if you work in the vcs directly, like unity-greeter, you will note the .c files are not kept around there.