=== exaem is now known as exaem|zzz === liam_ is now known as Guest84445 === opt1mu5 is now known as opt1mus [08:00] Morning all [08:18] morning diplo [09:18] Hey! :) [09:39] Morning all [09:43] morning [09:43] * AlanBell wonders if Ubuntu will run on a Qualcomm MSM 8260A/8960 Snapdragon S4 Krait Dual-core 1.5Ghz CPU [09:47] good morning alans :) === exaem|zzz is now known as exaem [10:49] ooh our new freepbx thing thinks # is a pound sign [10:49] good morning christel [10:52] + [10:56] http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/vm-instructions.wav that is better [11:01] What the states call the pound sign isn't it [11:03] apparenly it was once an abbreviation for lbs the old weight unit of measure [11:04] that the Americans still use to break satellites with etc [11:04] morning all [11:08] morning mattt [11:14] hash key installed \o/ [11:42] good morning everyone. [11:43] \o [11:43] o/ [11:43] o/ [11:43] o// o// \\o \\o [11:44] eeek, what happened there on bbc news 24, they killed click, half way through, and why has the weather came on. ? [11:45] ohdear, seems some minion pressed the wrong button. [12:17] yo diplo [12:17] well, off to homebase for paint [12:17] * mattt is doing the DIY thing today :-/ [12:17] Tuesday for me :) [12:33] do we have a sane way to install skype on ubuntu 12.04 yet? [12:33] AlanBell / ali1234 ? [12:38] no [12:38] we have two equivalent not-sane ways [12:38] either the 64bit package from natty, or the 32 bit package from oneiric [12:39] each installs the same version, which works, and a heap of :i386 libs, which dpkg sometimes removes and re-adds for no apparent reason [12:41] Anyone know if dotdeb is a safe/ok place to install packages from ? [12:42] diplo: What do you need from them? [12:42] php5-fpm for lucid [12:46] https://launchpad.net/~nginx/+archive/php5.3 [12:46] seems nginx team are doing something for it already [12:47] AlanBell: ugh, ta [12:51] * AlanBell starts a hangout on G+ [12:51] uh oh [12:58] popey: just send them this link: http://archive.canonical.com/pool/partner/s/skype/skype_2.2.0.35-0oneiric2_i386.deb [12:58] the bug with software center is fixed [13:05] eeek, G+ was crawling there. [13:07] it was a bit, but we could see you, it was mostly static images though [13:07] yes, [13:10] aswell as it being on my eeepc, so somewhat resource limited. [13:10] AlanBell: and nice hat, :) [13:10] * MartijnVdS is setting up rrdtool/collectd on an old AP [13:11] which will also get temparature/pressure data from a sensor connected to an arduino :) [13:11] :) [13:46] That's better! [13:46] I managed to lose the channel [13:54] so who's about then? [13:54] * penguin42 yawns [13:54] well said [13:56] o/ [13:59] well, this is exciting isn't it? [13:59] terribly [14:00] i wonder where they've all gone [14:00] lunch time probably [14:01] Sorry guys... [14:02] why? what have you done? [14:05] Nothing... just been browsing... mostly lurking.. [14:05] I'm at work but it's pretty quiet here too so I'm twiddling my thumbs [14:29] I'm not even sure how to tell if I've been disconnected when it's this quiet! [14:36] o/ [14:36] sssssh [14:42] oh look! Life! [14:44] [as Marvin said] life... don't talk to me life. Here I am, brain the size of a planet.... ;) [14:45] !ping [14:45] another contentless ping... sigh... [14:46] [whoops - that should be... "me *about* life"] (sorry Mr. Adams [14:46] !ping Marvin [14:47] [that got the bot!] [14:50] dear lubotu3 - thanks for your [14:50] pm - Sorry, I don't know anything about 'ping Marvin' [14:50] * AlanBell reboots SuperEngineer [14:51] click click [14:51] AlanBell: I think you broke his ZIP drive [14:51] ;) [14:52] if people are bored feel free to join #ubuntu-accessibility where we are doing some work on fictional persona documents, profiles of people who use accessibility tools [14:52] afternoon AlanBell [14:52] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas [14:52] and specifically http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/simon [15:49] AlanBell: did you see that thing i linked the other day [15:50] vinuxproject.org [15:53] i'm just wondering why they have a seperate project [15:55] thats been going for quite a while [15:56] ali1234: reading the accessibility list, I'd say that's because they feel that Ubuntu doesn't put enough emphasis on accessibility [16:06] basically because they can make a different compromise in that project [16:06] in the main Ubuntu the design team dream up some new visual crack and it gets in [16:06] then later on someone tells them how broken it is and we set about fixing it [16:07] stuff like the global menu, *everything* is a checkbox menu item [16:08] visually it all looks like normal menus, but it is rather broken for screen readers (there is a fix landing soon to set the hints so they look like the right type of items to screen readers) [16:09] stuff like the HUD arrives without being readable [16:09] the hold super to get a list of shortcuts is non keyboard focussable so orca users have no hope of getting to it [16:12] thought... include shortcuts as a main document in home folder. A document is readable to screen reader. [16:13] sure, there are ways of doing alternatives and workarounds [16:13] a static document doesn't cut it because the overlay updates if you change the shortcuts [16:14] [include mthe document in Update Manager? [16:14] *the [16:15] yeah, there are any number of places it could have been put, but it is broken by design [16:16] in orca preferences there is a keybindings page with most shortcuts on it [16:16] but that isn't really the point. The shortcuts overlay is a new feature that landed with zero thought whatsoever that it might be totally inaccessible [16:17] that's a whoops then.... will put brain to work for better idea [16:19] AlanBell: I see that sort of problems all the time with web site design; it's actually quite a difficult nut to crack! [16:19] even with guidelines line WCAG, which you don't have in desktop UI design [16:19] sure, it can be hard [16:19] hmmm... what about a long key press in Orca causing playback of a shortcut list audio file? [16:19] maybe that could be something to do? create a UCAG for Ubuntu UI design? [16:19] the thing is the gnome framework does actually work, you have to go out of your way to break it [16:21] which Unity does s [16:21] as it's all under the hood === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [16:22] yeah, stuff like the dash and lenses are not treeview widgets althought they look a bit like one, the launcher isn't standard, the global menu abuses the menu items etc. [16:23] it is kind of fixable mostly, but would be nice if it was designed in from the start [16:25] agreed but finding good developers with accessibility experience is hard [16:27] yeah, which is why I want to get more general awareness of the requirement and how to test things with orca [16:27] you don't need to be blind to find out your application is broken for blind users [16:27] true but having seen how a blind user uses a computer helps a lot with understanding the issues [16:28] or visually impaired users like Simon http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/simon [16:28] I never understood them until I saw Robin Christopherson from AbilityNet do a talk at a conference [16:28] http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/meet-daniela/ our blind persona [16:34] AlanBell: I'm curious about the ubuntu-won't boot without a monitor [16:35] penguin42: that is worth a re-test with a live CD [16:39] wow! what happened while I was gone? [16:49] Is the Compiz Enhanced Zoom enabled by default in 12.04 or do you have to start it via CCSM or System Settings? [16:58] how do you flush DNS in Ubuntu? Every single guide seems to tell me to install a caching deamon first which seems stupid xD [16:58] As far as I'm aware it's enabled but there are no key combinations enabled for it [16:58] ahayzen: just checking now [16:58] Azelphur: on 12.04 there is already a cache installed [16:58] on 11.10? [16:58] AlanBell: thanks was just wondering [16:59] maybe it's my router doing the caching :P [16:59] Azelphur: Not by default; and I don't think there is any DNS caching at all - hmm [17:00] well actually something is weird, because I've edited my hosts file and it's still resolving bad info [17:01] Azelphur: Processes only read /etc/hosts and /etc/resolv.conf once [17:01] ahayzen: yes, cliftonts is right, the plugin is turned on but there are no bindings set which is a bit useless [17:01] MartijnVdS: yea, I'm running dig and getting the old results [17:01] Azelphur: so you might need to restart the process that's doing the lookup [17:01] Azelphur: ah, caching NS? :) [17:01] dig is a run once thing, it doesn't stay open [17:01] *shrug* [17:02] Hm, cool. Channel tunnel gets GSM by July. [17:02] AlanBell: weird, in oneiric I had to add my on key combo... I usually go for Super+Button 4 [17:02] ahayzen: yeah, me too, super+button4/button5 to zoom out [17:02] I will see if that can be set up by default if you turn on zoom in the accessibility settings thing [17:03] MartijnVdS: *shrug* if I've edited hosts though there's no cache that should override that? [17:03] Azelphur: dig doesn't look at /etc/hosts, only at DNS [17:03] MartijnVdS: derp :D [17:04] ¯\(°_o)/¯ [17:04] AlanBell: In 11.10 i get 'No shortcut set' from the Universal Access... so how is the user supposed to enable this? [17:05] ahayzen: with ccsm right now [17:05] thats not the best solution really is it? ... As CCSM comes up with that warning at startup in 12.04? [17:06] no it is a pathetic solution [17:06] * AlanBell bzr branches gnome-control-centre [17:06] all compiz bindings are messed up on 12.04 right now [17:06] i can't even switch workspaces from the keyboard [17:09] ali1234: Have you tried windows-ctrl-arrow (rather than alt?) [17:09] ali1234: ctrl+alt+cursor [17:09] AlanBell: I thought 12.04 had changed away from ctrl? [17:09] I think they might have had problems with things taking control of super from the nux layer [17:10] unity is rather greedy when it comes to grabbing keys [17:13] * ahayzen wishes Gnome-control-centre was in python [17:14] yeah none of that stuff works [17:14] e-zoom doesn't work either [17:15] ali1234: I thought this was supposed to be an LTS release with everything being stable and fixed? [17:16] i think the idea of stable releases was abandoned about a year ago === IdleOne is now known as pangolin [17:16] what when Unity was released for the Desktop? [17:16] ahayzen: Stable isn't quite the same as all fixed [17:17] ahayzen: it is not released yet [17:17] the last LTS did not have unity in it [17:17] hence why we are here [17:17] there is still a bug in natty that effectively crashes the machine and forces a reset, and it can't be fixed because unity has no same development history [17:17] But its in Beta ... i guess there is a month and a bit [17:18] only the latest version on unity ever gets any work done on it, and none of that work can be backported to the supposed "stable" release [17:18] ali1234: If it crashes the machine that's not unity's fault - that's the graphics driver [17:18] (or kernel) [17:18] penguin42: it crashes the machine because unity gets confused and stops accepting input [17:19] it is absolutely 100% unity's fault, and nobody knows how it got fixed, and the change that fixes it can't be applied to the version on natty because it's so different [17:19] ^^ all nonsense [17:19] gosh that whole chunk of universal access settings is all about gnome-magnifier which we don't ship [17:19] you can of course go and read the bug report if you want to [17:20] AlanBell: Thats not good right? [17:21] ahayzen: not great, and indeed this is .c files :~/ [17:21] I should really learn C aswell as Python ... but coursework comes first :( [17:21] the .ui files are xml things, probably should be edited with some version of glade, but I never seem to have the same version of glade that has been used to create the UI files [17:22] AlanBell: well, like most of GNOME TBH [17:23] wonder if it all works if you have gnome-mag installed [17:24] bug 826059 [17:24] Launchpad bug 826059 in unity (Ubuntu) "unity gets stuck in 'expose' mode when you drag an icon over a launcher icon and hold it there" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/826059 [17:24] ^ apparently this bug is all nonsense [17:24] "it never happened" [18:11] How do I move the Unity dock to the right of the screen? It's not obvious... [18:12] (I'm not sure if I mean 'dock' or 'launcher' or something else) [18:13] Oh, you can't. Brilliant. [18:16] Anyone found a way of including G+ in Gwibber yet? [18:18] http://iloveubuntu.net/gwibber-receive-google-plugin-probably-ubuntu-1204 looks like its not ready yet [18:22] I though the G+ API was read-only at the moment? [18:23] according to bug #805452 - it is still reads only [18:23] Launchpad bug 805452 in Gwibber "Add Google+ Service to Gwibber" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/805452 [18:26] [my opinion is that G+ thinks revenue is endangered if other apps have access] [18:31] AlanBell: Have you seen the last email to the list? [18:32] yes [18:32] I did wonder if that was part of your testing [18:32] to see what responses it got [18:33] there are a few reports of it starting muted, I have had it happen to me, I will go find the bugs in a bit [18:55] * brunogirin rearranged gmail folders, now thunderbird is synchronising 10k messages: oops! === ed_ is now known as ed4 === ed4 is now known as ed3678654 === ed_ is now known as ed3456765 [19:50] * AlanBell slaps unity and the HUD [19:50] if you turn off the key to show the HUD so alt doesn't get pinched by unity when you are using virtual machines it breaks alt+prtscr [19:51] did it also break your workspace switching? [19:53] no [19:53] ali1234: no that's the remapping of Ctrl+Alt+arrows to Super+Shift+arrows [19:53] automagically [19:53] for some weird reason [19:54] ah [19:54] yeah that works [19:55] * MartijnVdS mapped them back [19:55] it was super+shift+arrows for me yesterday [19:57] apt-get install xfce ;-) [19:57] why? [19:57] anything to get away from unity .... [19:57] if i wanted to use a barely supported and out of date desktop... i'd use gnome fallback [19:58] each to his own ... [19:58] how do i configure this new dnsmasq stuff? [19:58] dpkg --purge dnsmasq [19:58] i don't think that will help [19:59] My system works fine without it [19:59] i want to configure a dns server for specific domain [19:59] I don't see what it adds [19:59] it breaks bits of ipv6 [19:59] i don't use ipv6 [19:59] dnsmasq is a dhcp server.. why are they installing dhcp servers on all machines? [20:00] wrong [20:00] clue is in name [20:00] "Dnsmasq is a lightweight, easy to configure, DNS forwarder and DHCP server." [20:00] from apt-cache show [20:00] Description-en: Small caching DNS proxy and DHCP/TFTP server [20:00] DNS forwarder [20:00] No, also a server. [20:00] so how do i configure it? [20:00] by editing a file in /etc? [20:01] which one? [20:01] dnsmasq.conf? [20:01] does not exist [20:01] maybe in one of the pre/post up/down-scripts in /etc/network/ [20:01] uhr s/scripts/dirs [20:01] --conf-file=/var/run/nm-dns-dnsmasq.conf [20:02] so i need to patch network manager probably [20:02] http://www.stgraber.org/2012/02/24/dns-in-ubuntu-12-04/ [20:02] that should be easy enough [20:02] yeah that page doesn't answer any of my questions at all [20:03] ok so ask stgraber [20:04] where can i find him? ;) [20:04] Canada. [20:04] stgraber is here [20:04] will it obey extra configs in /etc/dnsmasq.d? [20:05] one way to find out i guess === boudicca is now known as Boudicca99 [20:10] looks like it doesn't [20:10] ali1234: http://www.stgraber.org/2012/02/24/dns-in-ubuntu-12-04/ [20:10] ali1234: configure the interface in /etc/network/interfaces so n-m doesn't pick it up [20:10] no [20:10] then you can use whatever you want [20:10] i don't want to configure an interface [20:10] i don't want to configure my stuff manually [20:10] this is not 1997 [20:11] i just want to add an extra DNS server for a specific domain [20:11] i just need to get two extra lines into the dnsmasq configuration somehow [20:11] But.. configuring things is for POWER USERS and Ubuntu is not for them! [20:11] haha [20:12] yes, configuring interfaces manually is for power users [20:12] doing it from the command line is old skool [20:12] dwatkins: No, we have nm-tool for doing that. [20:12] ah ok, jpds [20:15] you lot are worse than me [20:25] so i can patch this into networ-manager [20:28] nm-cli lets you bring stuff up and down from the command line; not sure what else you can do from the command line; you could tweek /etc/NetworkManager - but I'm not sure how much is changeable from the config files [20:28] nothing, all the dnsmasq config is hardcoded or comes from an autogenerated config file which is also hard coded [20:29] oh hang on whats this "any other random configs" sounds like what i need [20:30] but where does tjhat come from? [20:31] (this is why I removed dnsmasq) [20:31] wah wah wah [20:31] you removed dnsmasq because you are too afraid to read source code? [20:32] ali1234: My /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf has a line dns=dnsmasq I guess taking that out might do it? [20:32] might do what? [20:32] i dont want to disable dnsmasq [20:32] oh, someone did [20:32] oh, you wanted to add some stuff didn't you - hmm [20:32] i want to actually, you know, use it [20:34] ali1234: I'd try and stop nm starting it's own [20:34] then i will have to start it manually myself [20:34] nod [20:34] and make sure it is always running [20:34] otherwise no internet [20:35] I'd assume it can be made to start at boot [20:36] looks like i need to make a plugin. sounds easy enough [20:37] is the Ubuntu dnsmasq thing hacked in or done as a plugin? [20:48] Evening all. [20:48] \o mr Pope [20:49] ooh! you! [20:49] i have a friend moving to .nl soon [20:49] Good choice :) [20:49] can I give him your email addy for help if he has any localisation issues? [20:49] ☺ [20:50] Assuming he's done his basic homework, sure :) [20:50] like which broadband provider, that kind of local issues [20:50] he was looking it up but it was all in hurdy gurdy language [20:51] Broadband depends a lot on location. And whether he also wants TV, phone, etc. [20:51] yeah, details I am unaware of [20:51] he's got a week to find a place [20:51] anyway, sure :) [20:51] and its his first week at work [20:51] he has a relocation company who should do everything for him [20:51] but always nice to have a 2nd opinion from a local ☺ [20:52] popey: funda.nl + Google translate ;) [20:52] (if only.. :)) [21:24] IK WIL EEN OPBLAASSCHAAP [21:24] * christel communicates with MartijnVdS [21:24] google translates that as "I want an inflatable sheep" XD [21:25] \o/ [21:25] that is indeed what i said :D [21:25] rofl, I agree with your motives and wish to join your cause. [21:25] wooo [21:25] * DJones offers a pin [21:28] * Azelphur wears pin with pride [21:28] hehe [21:42] that pin won't mix well with inflatable sheep [21:44] wt [21:44] f [21:44] that was a hell of a moment to reattach irssi [21:45] :D [21:45] as was it for i [21:52] haha [22:45] aloha [22:46] yo [22:46] will the raspberry pi really make a difference ? will kids be enthused to learn programming or will they simply go back to their xbox, playstation or wii? [22:50] imo all kids have laptops these days so i doubt it'll change anything [22:54] evening [22:54] hi [22:55] perhaps instead of introducing another gadget, perhaps we should ban all game consoles.... if you want to play games fine ... but you will have to write them first.... [22:56] *shudder* [22:56] can you just do that after GTA V is out please? [22:56] i think the rpi has a certain niche possibility [22:57] but its very doubtful that it will actually achieve its primary purpose of introducing more kids to programming. [22:58] i am optimistic [22:59] * andypiper jumps up and down saying "me too" [22:59] it definitely needs a nice curriculum and tools behind it [22:59] (evening all) [22:59] we need course ware, teachers and national curriculum that promotes and enthuses programming rather than office "productivity" tools. [22:59] indeed - and we are working on the course ware [23:02] but the pi and its software will not provide that silver bullet it cannot work on its own it needs a co-ordinated strategy. At my school (in the 80's) we had plenty of BBC Micros but no teachers ... it worked for me because when it came to learning about computers I was self motivated, but these are much different times. [23:03] there are things afoot which cannot yet be spoken of [23:05] ? [23:35] * penguin42 wonders if andypiper is really slardybartfarst [23:38] I don't really see how the PI will help teach programming TBH [23:58] on its own - it won't. But it is affordable -> greater accessibility. The rest requires curriculum and support