/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/03/04/#ubuntu-uk.txt

danfishexit00:57
Azelphurquit00:57
daftykinsragequit00:58
MartijnVdS\o08:25
popeyMorning08:51
TheOpenSourcerer\o/ popey08:51
* TheOpenSourcerer haz tickets08:51
popeyyay08:52
TheOpenSourcererTime for going back to bed now. Was up at 04:20#08:54
MartijnVdS3.5 hours..08:56
MartijnVdSthen: http://20vanalphen.nl/web/images/uploads/bestanden/Parcours_overzicht_2011_totaal_Pdf.pdf08:56
AlanBellwow you are doing parcour?08:59
MartijnVdSAlanBell: 20km run/race09:00
AlanBellnot the leaping off buildings kind?09:00
MartijnVdSNo, the "We've closed the roads so you can run" kind :)09:01
MartijnVdSwith ~8k people09:01
AlanBellnice09:01
TheOpenSourcerernight night all.09:01
MartijnVdS\o TheOpenSourcerer09:01
* dwatkins wanders in with tea09:06
diploMorning all10:16
SuperEngineero/10:33
SuperEngineerHuawei E367 mobile dongle - will it work oh with Ubuntu?10:38
SuperEngineer<SuperEngineer> [can't test it myself until 14-03 - blew my current allowance - complained - they upgraded me to  the E367 with a 15GB allowance - but must not use till 14th...10:38
* MartijnVdS has a laptop with built-in 3G modem, so I have no idea10:40
SuperEngineeroh dear - just seen bug #77695910:40
lubotu3Launchpad bug 776959 in Baltix "huawei e367 does not work" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/77695910:40
SuperEngineer....but it *does* claim a fix :)10:41
SuperEngineerMartijnVdS: can't you rush out & get one now so you can test it for me?  :D10:46
brobostigongood morning everyone.11:25
SuperEngineero/ brobostigon11:27
brobostigono/ SuperEngineer11:28
* SuperEngineer prepares to turn off brain & go shopping.... bfn11:33
brobostigonsimiler here, and it is raining.11:33
bittini just installed Ubuntu :o12:33
Myrttiwoo12:33
bittingot a new PC :p12:33
bittinbut need to update it alot only CD i found was 10.1012:33
bittinthis computer seems faster with Ubuntu12:34
bittinbut still want Windows 7 for gayming12:34
AlanBellhi bittin12:38
bittinHi AlanBell12:39
AlanBellyeah, I heard there are games on windows12:39
bittinplaying with my new Intel Dualcore i got from dad and his wife12:39
AlanBellonly ever found minesweeper and solitaire when I used it though12:39
bittinthey wanted to buy a new laptop instead, and only problem with this was that the SATA drive needed a change :p12:39
bittinhaven't used Ubuntu in forever12:40
bittinits purple nowdays12:40
AlanBellI have a new desktop on order for my parents, should arrive this week12:40
bittincool12:40
AlanBellgoing to put 12.04 on it for them12:40
bittincool12:41
bittinlast time i used Ubuntu it was 10.0412:41
bittinbut had a 10.10 CD laying around, but updating this to 11.04 atm12:41
bittinupdate-manager -d12:41
bittin:)12:41
bittinhad some old P3s and P4s running Windows XP and Lubuntu here, now i got this DualCore monster running Windows 7 and Ubuntu 11.0412:43
AlanBellI would keep going with the upgrades to get it to 11.1012:43
AlanBelland maybe the beta of 12.0412:43
AlanBellthe earlier versions of Unity are a bit challenging in places12:44
bittinah i think i will use gnome3 instead12:45
bittinnot a big fan of Unity12:45
bittinshould try to get a better gfx card then: Radeon HD 3450 also12:46
bittinand play some BF312:46
bittinUbuntu Natty Narwahls Narwhals Narwhals Swimming in the Ocean12:47
AlanBellcausing a comotion12:48
penguin42well they would with those long pointy things13:18
* SuperEngineer settles down from shopping... turns brain back on13:21
AlanBellit is snowing13:22
SuperEngineerno it's not13:22
* penguin42 agrees with SuperEngineer13:22
SuperEngineermajority verdict has it - it is *not* snowing - therefore AlanBell  is on drugs?13:23
AlanBellwell sleety rain13:24
SuperEngineer[pardon the humour - had apint on way back from shopping ;)13:24
PhantomBoohi SuperEngineer14:01
SuperEngineerhi PhantomBoo14:01
PhantomBooSuperEngineer: do you think they've guessed?14:02
SuperEngineerPhantomBoo: nah.. not for at at least 10 secounds yet14:02
PhantomBooSuperEngineer: so how's the dual personality going?14:03
AlanBellthats a nice IP address you have there14:03
SuperEngineerPhantomBoo: ooo, *very* much the same as yours14:03
SuperEngineer;)14:04
AlanBellgot a new device?14:04
SuperEngineer[just trying out IRC in Pigrin... nah! sticking with this methinks]14:04
SuperEngineer[....bye PhantomBoo ]14:05
AlanBellI tried the mono based IRC client a while back, seemed OK if you are not in many channels14:05
SuperEngineerthat meant to say *pidgin btw]14:05
AlanBellthere won't be any mono on the 12.04 CD now I presume14:06
AlanBelltheopensourcerer should do a blog post on how to install mono :)14:06
SuperEngineeryeh... what was the decision on that?  momo - or no mono?14:06
AlanBellI think no mono14:06
SuperEngineeroh well14:06
AlanBellI will check in a bit14:06
AlanBellwonder if directhex can help with a command to install every mono based thing in the repos14:07
AlanBellno mono that I can find14:12
penguin42AlanBell: apt-cache rdepends maybe?14:13
AlanBellyeah, I was just thinking that14:13
AlanBellso what do all mono thingies depend on?14:13
AlanBellmono-runtime?14:14
SuperEngineerI thought the decision [if mono was not going to be CD},  it would be available in repos [though I haven't checked]14:15
AlanBellit is14:16
AlanBellthere was never any question about removing it from the repos14:16
AlanBellexcept on some really obscure architecture like solaris or aix14:16
AlanBellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/868268/14:17
SuperEngineerstill seems a waste to move "CD" size up to just above Cd & thewrefore DVD required... & not include it?14:17
AlanBellon line 45 of that there is |libzeroc-ice3.4-cil. What is the | for?14:18
ubuntuuk-planet[Stuart Langridge] My new phone, 2012 edition - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2012/03/04/my-new-phone-2012-edition14:18
AlanBelldunno, have we bust the CD size?14:18
SuperEngineerI thought that was also the intention [/me looks for relevant info]14:19
SuperEngineer14:20
SuperEngineer6 Key Changes in Next Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin | Tech Drive-in14:20
SuperEngineerNov 12, 2011 ... Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin's ISO size will increase to 750MB and hence it won't fit into CD anymore. It is a rather reasonable move in my ...14:20
AlanBellsure, it was appproved that it wouldn't be a problem if we went to 750, but right now it is 701MB14:21
SuperEngineerooo - now that *is* a pleasant surprise14:21
* TOShrun haz installed 12.04 on my lappy.14:22
TOShrunOne thing I find a tad annoying is if you minimise an app there is no obvious way to find which desktop it is on. If you click the launcher to maximise it again and you are in the wrong workspace then nothing happens.14:23
* SuperEngineer hates that "word" [i.e. "lappy"]14:24
AlanBellwhat you need is my little script to add window quicklists to the launcher icons14:24
TOShrunAh.14:24
AlanBellhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/quicklists.py14:25
AlanBellgrab that, make it executeable and run it14:25
AlanBellthen right click things in the launcher and see lots of happy lists of windows14:26
paul_quit14:28
TOShrunAlanBell:  Still doesn't tell me which wspace an app is on14:31
TOShrunOr do I need to restart unity14:31
AlanBellno, but you can select it and you go to the right workspace and it unminimises14:31
AlanBellwould you like it to show the workspace in the quicklists?14:32
AlanBellor sort by workspace or something?14:32
TOShrunNot for me it doesn't14:32
TOShrunAh sorry my bad left click, not right :-)14:33
AlanBellodd. If I minimise something, then go to a different workspace and select it from the quicklist then I whoosh over to the correct workspace and it opens14:33
TOShrunthanks, that is a big improvement14:33
SuperEngineera thought [ & a question ]... is 12.04 the time to move to 64bit - or stay at 32bit?  Are apps in 12.04/64bit ok for day to say use?14:34
TOShrunI was using the right click popup menu to select it. That doesn't seem to wiz me to the right workspace14:34
AlanBellSuperEngineer: you are still on 32 bit!!14:34
SuperEngineeryep14:34
TOShrunSuperEngineer: I've not used a 32bit desktop since 9.10 IIRC14:35
SuperEngineerfrom habit only14:35
* SuperEngineer downloads 64bit to try14:35
AlanBellyeah, 64 bit is totally and utterly fine14:35
SuperEngineerthanks14:35
AlanBellinstalling skype pulls in a heap of 32bit stuff, then it works14:35
AlanBellflash works fine, everything works fine14:35
TOShrunAnyone using skype-wrapper successfully on 12.04?14:36
AlanBellwhat does that do?14:36
TOShrunPuts skype into the messaging menu14:36
TOShrunApparently14:36
TOShrunBut it was a bag of fail when I tried it yesterday.14:37
TOShrunNOt that I tried very hard. Only started it once then had to go out.14:37
AlanBelloh OK, that might be useful, better than the panel icon that vanishes for no apparent reason14:37
TOShrunYes.14:37
AlanBell!info skype-wrapper14:38
SuperEngineerso I always knew which to pick in 32 bit but which of the many/sevaral in 64 bit ? [desktop].  intel chip - use the amd64 iso?14:38
lubotu3Package skype-wrapper does not exist in oneiric14:38
AlanBellwhat is the package name for it?14:38
TOShrunit's a PPA14:38
TOShrunGoogle it.14:38
AlanBelloh, right14:38
TOShrunYou need his unstable pps for precise.14:38
AlanBellSuperEngineer: amd64 iso14:38
TOShruns\ppa14:39
SuperEngineerthanks AlanBell14:39
ali1234someone needs to hack the n900 skype binaries to run on x86 thru qemu14:50
ali1234that would be the best thing ever14:51
AlanBellarm binaries?14:51
ali1234or even better canonical should licence them from collabora14:52
penguin42what exactly does n900 run?14:52
ali1234debian14:53
ali1234mangled debian, but still debian14:53
penguin42then you should be able to install qemu-user or possibly qemu-user-static and an ARM userland and get it to run - with a bit of a fight14:53
ali1234yes but its not a stand alone exe14:53
ali1234it's a proper telepathy plugin14:54
penguin42that's a bit of a pain; it's probably easier to run the whole thing14:54
ali1234well yeah but i can already do that14:54
ali1234skype UI sucks14:54
AlanBellhttp://eion.robbmob.com/ does that do enough?14:55
ali1234maybe14:57
ali1234i'll try it in a bit14:57
AlanBellit says it will do everything the skype UI will do, but I only see screenshots of text IM chatting14:58
ali1234yeah14:58
AlanBellI think voice and video calling is kind of a core feature of skype14:58
ali1234indeed14:58
SuperEngineerwhile I'm downloading the 64bit beta  - here's a [non-Ubuntu] question that's bugging me...15:00
s-foxHello15:00
SuperEngineerwhat the heck did I put in twitter [#SuprEngr] that made my following jump 80% [from a very low 5 to a low 9]?  I'm only a casual user!15:00
SuperEngineero/ s-fox - glad to see see you here15:01
s-foxHello SuperEngineer15:01
s-foxHow are you doing, been a while15:02
SuperEngineer[assume s- = silver?]15:02
SuperEngineerI've been ok thanks15:02
s-foxGood :)15:02
SuperEngineerI hope all well with your good self15:03
s-foxYes, I am well again thank you :) Watching the 6 nations rugby15:03
SuperEngineer:)15:03
SuperEngineer[no better sport than that!]15:04
SuperEngineerfor those that are wondering.. s-fox  offered to mentor me in #Ubuntu-Beginners - but I kept getting sent from home and never had a chance to follow it through!15:07
directhexAlanBell: mono-complete installs all of src:mono. there's no command to install all mono-based apps 'cos that'd be stupid15:07
AlanBellyeah, it would be stupid, but I am not going to let a little thing like that stop me15:08
AlanBellthe rdepends of mono-runtime looks fairly comprehensive, do you think it misses anything?15:08
directhexAlanBell: mono-runtime brings in the bare minimum - enough for the mono infrastructure to work (e.g. installing mono libraries uses the "gacutil" command, mono-runtime pulls in enough for gacutil to run)15:11
diploAfternoon guys15:11
diploAny of you used Nginx before ?15:11
TOShrundiplo: Briefly. As a reverse proxy15:11
penguin42directhex: Right but every mono app is going to be an redepend on mono-runtime then ?15:12
diploJust failing to get php to work with it, wondering if anyone has any pointers15:12
TOShrunit's fastcgi iiuc15:12
diployeah installed php5-fpm and it's running and all looks good15:12
diploNo errors, just get 502 bad gateway after 10 secs or so of trying to load15:13
directhexpenguin42: yes, assuming it wasn't packaged by babboons. anything with a .net .exe file should depend on mono-runtime15:13
AlanBelldirecthex: if I install this lot http://paste.ubuntu.com/868268/ have I missed anything?15:13
TOShrunIreland got a sneaky try then!15:14
TOShrunBad France15:14
directhexAlanBell: nothing obvious. except for the monodevelop addins15:14
directhexand various other plugins i guess, e.g. banshee plugins15:15
directhexnot sure why you'd want all that installed though, it's such an ecclectic mix of random apps15:17
directhexbible study, IDE, graphic calculator, etc15:18
AlanBelldirecthex: well theopensourcerer has done various blog articles on the mono stuff on the CD and how to take it all off, I thought as there is no mono stuff on the 12.04 CD then an article about how to put it all on would be nice15:23
directhexah, the ol' reddit switch-a-roo15:23
TOShrunAlanBell: So is there no tomboy in 12.04 then? I thought that was a pretty popular app.15:31
AlanBellyou can install it and if you are upgrading it will still be there15:32
TOShrunok15:33
AlanBelland it still syncs to Ubuntu One I think, just doesn't expose the content on the website there15:33
AlanBellif I read the articles right, I don't use it myself15:33
TOShrunme neither.15:35
TOShrunSo if 12.04 is mono free wtf won't it fit on a CD??? What has been added to make it so much bigger?15:36
AlanBellum, it *does* fit15:36
TOShrunOh - I though I saw you saying earlier it was going to be 750Mb or so.15:37
AlanBellno, I quite specifically said the opposite :)15:37
AlanBellit is 701MB15:37
TOShrunah my bad15:37
AlanBellit was agreed that it could go to 750, but they didn't need to15:38
AlanBelllargely because of the mono change I guess15:38
TOShrunSo no need for a Chicken Little remix this time round then...15:38
AlanBellnope, directhex made that15:39
TOShrunI know15:39
directhexi blew away the CLR repo a few days ago15:39
TOShrunAnnoying that a number of the Thunderbird dialogues are too long for my (normal size) laptop monitor.15:52
AlanBelllike "Thunderbirds are GO!"15:55
directhexFIVE!15:55
directhexFOUR!15:55
AlanBellFOUR!15:55
directhexTHREE!15:56
AlanBellTWO!15:56
directhexONE!15:56
SuperEngineerstop shouting - my virtual ears hurt16:02
AlanBell0 upgraded, 411 newly installed, 0 to remove and 88 not upgraded.16:03
AlanBellNeed to get 170 MB of archives.16:03
AlanBellAfter this operation, 530 MB of additional disk space will be used.16:03
AlanBellis what is required to install all of mono (less the plugins and fiddly bits)16:03
hamitronwhy do something "stupid" like that? ;)16:04
AlanBellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/868423/ to see what it does16:05
directhexwell you're pulling in apache16:07
TOShrunwhy doesn't gwibber have it's buttons on the top bar? I thought it was an "integrated" app?16:08
TOShrunOh I see, only when it is full screen.16:08
directhexand i wouldn't bother pulling in debug packages either16:10
directhexAlanBell:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/868433/ is a list without pointless duplication or highly esoteric interfaces to development tools nobody uses16:13
directhexhmph, autopano-sift is still in the archve16:17
AlanBellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/868442/ looks good16:19
directhexAlanBell: bear in mind more than 100 meg of that is model trains.16:24
directhexhttp://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/bve-route-cross-city-south16:24
AlanBellexcellent16:29
AlanBellwithout openBVE it drops from 157MB to 128MB of archives, so only 29MB of compressed train16:32
directhexAlanBell: space on disk though16:33
AlanBellyup16:34
directhexthe winforms-and-tao-opengl mix used by openbve is also used by other cross-platform games, even commercial ones16:35
* MartijnVdS listens to some Demoscene Time Machine16:40
MartijnVdSBleepy goodness!16:40
pangolinlistening to popey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oG1WkI8h40 talk about some cool stuff16:46
ali1234AlanBell: why do you want to install "everything mono"16:51
kvarleyHow can I give my user account privileges to read and write in folders/files which are owned by www-data?16:52
ali1234gpasswd -a <you> www-data16:52
kvarleyali1234: What does that command do?16:53
ali1234add you to group www-data16:53
kvarleyali1234: Ok, thanks =]16:53
ali1234of course it's debatable whether this is a good idea or not16:53
kvarleyWhy would it be a bad idea? I guess in terms of security. But the alternative is a lot of chowning16:54
kvarleyali1234: Trying to "rm index.html" from /var/www gives me permission denied after adding myself to the group via the command you gave me. Any ideas?16:57
ali1234you have to log out and log in again16:57
ali1234and you have to check group permissions too16:57
kvarleyali1234: Doh. /var/www is by default owned by root, not www-data17:00
MartijnVdSso you can't change the web site when you h4x0r it17:15
AlanBellali1234: well I wanted to find out what everything mono is17:18
ali1234AlanBell: but why?17:25
penguin42to see what's left to replace?17:41
Myrttioh good. aq doesn't mention me in the blog post.17:44
MartijnVdSMyrtti: you wanted a mention?17:44
Myrttino I didn't17:44
MyrttiIf I had, I'd said "oh boo."17:45
MartijnVdSmaybe you were being ironic/sarcastic17:45
MartijnVdShard to tell from this side of the internet ;)17:45
Myrttioh dear17:49
MyrttiSO just found cooking.stackexchange.com17:49
=== AndrewGe1 is now known as AndrewGee
gordthinking about getting myself one of those little robot hoovers, the amazon reviews are a great read: so far it has resisted chucking itself down the stairs "which was nice"18:59
Azelphurhahaha18:59
hamitronI bet 99% of people "test" the stairs on the first day ;)19:00
hamitronjust too tempting19:00
gordthey still don't seem to have invented a little robot hoover than can do the stairs too though, once they do that, we'll know its the future19:00
hamitronbe nice if it made coffee too19:01
gordi think your looking for a maid or something19:01
gordrobot maid19:01
gordtry japan19:01
hamitronwhy not just a maid? ;/19:01
gordrobot maid is the future, regular maid is the past19:02
hamitronI personally doubt all these robots will happen19:02
hamitronsome huge man made problem will come about before we get that far19:03
gordwell it already is happening, more menial jobs get replaced with robots every day - not what you might envisage from the jetsons, but still, mechanical-computerized devices19:04
hamitronyeh19:04
hamitronI'm thinking totally automated stuff19:04
hamitron:)19:05
gordbank robot gives me my money so i can go to the asda robot to get my noms so i can come home and have my robot hoover take away all the crumbs from said noms19:05
hamitronhaven't these robots made you redundant when it comes to the transfer of money, with your cash cards? ;)19:06
gordi still have to get cash out occasionally :) the wonderful fantastic local chinese two streets over doesn't accept cards19:07
hamitronhaha19:07
gordi would eat there every night if i didn't think it would make me grow two sizes too big19:07
bigcalmWho needs a robot maid when you can have a RoboGeisha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgrKLjoWcbs19:08
dwatkinswait, what?19:38
dwatkinsthere's someone inside her, though... I'm confused19:38
dwatkinsthe tank is awesome19:38
dwatkinsBrian Blessed is going into space.19:51
bigcalmFly my bird men19:52
dwatkinsbigcalm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcDN409ZBv4 ;)19:52
popeyevening19:52
dwatkins(I know that's a Flash Gordon reference, but I'd just seen this video)19:52
dwatkinshiya popey19:52
czajkowskievening folks19:53
dwatkinshi czajkowski also19:56
czajkowskigood weekend folks ?19:57
dwatkinsToday I learned that people clone their pets. It's been an amusing weekend in general.19:58
dwatkinsHow's czajkowski?19:58
czajkowskigood thanks my folks were over20:04
czajkowskiso ate lots of yummy foods, and caught a play and did some sight seeing20:04
czajkowskianyone know how a person gets to torquay if they don't have access to a car, train seems very long20:04
AlanBellhelicopter20:05
dwatkinsthumb a lift?20:05
popeytrain is quite short, the track is very long though20:06
czajkowskipopey: looking at 5 hrs and 2 changes20:06
czajkowskijust wondered was there an airport in the region or something20:07
dwatkinsczajkowski: whereabouts from?20:07
czajkowskilondon20:07
popeysounds about right20:07
popey4 hours from farnborough20:07
dwatkinsyeah, google maps says 6 hours via public transport in general20:07
AlanBellit is a proper long way by car20:07
popeyits 3-3.5 hours by car from farnborough20:07
popeyso yeah, long20:07
dwatkinsthe trains are pretty good west out of London as I imagine you're aware, looks like they aren't so good south from Weston20:07
czajkowskiso brighton, torquay and beckenham  are 3 plays I want to see but have yet to do so after being here 16 months :/20:08
popeytorquay isnt much to see20:08
popeyplenty better places20:08
czajkowskiI know but I've just had it in my head and watched a funny show20:08
popeyah20:08
czajkowskiwont be till the weather picks up20:08
dwatkinscould do them in sequence, I guess20:08
popeybrighton is nice and easy20:09
popeyi used to go there quite a bit20:09
czajkowskiam open to suggestions to see places in the UK20:09
czajkowskispecificaly the england and wales bit20:09
popeydepends what you want to see and do ☺20:09
czajkowski:)20:09
AlanBellfaulty towers isn't a real hotel in torquay20:09
hamitronvisit Hull first, and everywhere will be great20:09
czajkowskiAlanBell: thats every day in this apartment :)20:10
dwatkinsOxford's nice, czajkowski.20:10
AlanBellFarnham is great :)20:10
czajkowskiwell given this is where I go when I go homem http://url.ie/e79n20:10
czajkowskiaye Oxford and cambridge are on my to see list20:10
dwatkins:)20:10
SuperEngineersuggest - if visiting Torquay - hope on  quick bus to Paignton, or better still Dartmouth -  so much better20:11
SuperEngineer*hop20:11
czajkowskihmm can see a lot of people were active at UGJ over the weekend, good few questions tagged against launchpad instead of ubuntu20:13
daubers\o/ bletchley park20:15
daubersczajkowski: Also, a trip to the Gower would be awesome20:16
daubersBest Ice Cream in the world at Verdis in the mumbles20:16
popeyBeer is nice. (the place)20:19
popeyThere's a neat train place there20:19
czajkowskishall make a list and do some sight seeing this summer20:20
czajkowskicheers20:20
popeywe should do a beer train run again sometime20:20
popeyhttp://www.watercressonline.co.uk/section.php?xSec=19120:20
daubersczajkowski: Geeknics!20:20
daubersGeeknic in the Gower be aces20:20
czajkowskidaubers: I as thinking more summer holidays but yeah :)20:20
daubersStill aiming to do a Geeknic at Bletchley20:22
czajkowskipopey: if you organise one let me know so I can tell J more his kinda thing than mine I'd die from all the beer20:22
AlanBellthere is cider too20:22
czajkowski:)20:22
popeythe beer is not compulsory to drink20:23
popeywe mostly go for the chatter / social20:23
czajkowskiahh ok20:23
brobostigonintellectualism.*20:24
popeybut the beer is of course an added bonus at 2 quid a pint20:24
brobostigon\o/20:24
czajkowskipopey: wow20:27
czajkowskipopey: so when we going20:27
* AlanBell gets out credit card20:27
AlanBellwhich one do you want?20:27
AlanBelllets try and make sure I am not on holiday this time20:27
AlanBellI seem to recall I was having an unutterably ghastly time in the Gower last time there was a RAT outing20:28
ollyclarkczajkowski: sorry bit behind in the conversation, there is an airport at Exeter, not sure if you can fly from London though?20:29
czajkowskiollyclark: thanks20:29
czajkowskiah yes but I've one stop via AMS or Jersey20:31
czajkowskitrain it shall be20:31
czajkowskiAlanBell: popey july ?20:31
popeyjuly sounds good20:33
andresinmphi all, I am trying to burn an lubuntu CD.  brasero says that my empty cd is not adaquate media20:49
andresinmpI then try to run it again (from CLI) and it says that brasero is already open.20:49
jacobwuse the `killall` command to kill brasero, `killall brasero`20:50
andresinmpthanks, letś see if that worked.20:51
andresinmpsimulating the burn.20:52
andresinmphumm, simulation finished OK, it ejects it and says: error while burning media closed or not recordable.20:57
AlanBellSaturday 7th July 2012? for the RAT20:59
jacobwRAT?20:59
=== fadd_ is now known as fadd^
jacobwandresinmp: which version of ubuntu are you using?20:59
andresinmpCLI says brasero:6184: gtk-critical **: gtktree_model_get_iter_first:  assertion `GTK_IS_TREE_MODEL (tree_model)' failed20:59
AlanBellhttp://www.watercressline.co.uk/Our-Services/RAT21:00
andresinmp11.1021:00
ali1234don't do a simulation21:00
jacobwandresinmp: that's normal, its a GTK warning21:00
ali1234just write it21:00
ali1234maybe the image is too big?21:01
andresinmpthat was my next step. hope it works. ... wait. its gone. CLI says segmentation fault.21:01
AlanBellick21:01
andresinmpok running it again.21:02
jacobwandresinmp: enable apport and report a bug21:02
ali1234i wish they'd fix that tree_model warning21:02
ali1234i like to run gedit from the terminal and it always spams that21:02
gordonjcpI wish they'd make a raw disk image, to write to a USB stick without dicking around with unetbootin21:03
ali1234gordonjcp: well you're in luck cos they alreadydid that like 6 months ago21:03
andresinmpenable aport is something I run in comand line? seems to be burning now.21:03
jacobw+1 gordonjcp21:03
gordonjcpali1234: really?21:03
gordonjcpit's not massively obvious on the download pages21:03
ali1234http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-11-10-Will-Be-Distributed-As-Hybrid-CD-USB-images-206765.shtml21:03
jacobw`sudo service apport start force_start=1`21:04
gordonjcpsweet21:04
jacobwreproduce the crash and use the diaglogue to report the bug21:04
andresinmpthanks jacobw21:05
andresinmpits burning but giving me the (brasero:6289): Gtk-CRITICAL **: gtk_tree_model_get_iter_first: assertion `GTK_IS_TREE_MODEL (tree_model)' failed21:06
jacobwandresinmp: GTK warning usually aren't fatal21:06
andresinmpok, good to know.21:06
andresinmpwhen it says eject manualy it means to actually press the button i guess? brasero now could not eject it.21:08
ali1234that was suspiciously fast21:08
andresinmp16x21:08
ali1234even so, closing the session normally takes like 3 minutes21:08
andresinmpgive me a cute bing! notification saying it was succesfully burnt.21:09
andresinmpcute chime.21:09
ali1234i can't remember the last time i burnt a cd21:09
andresinmpOK, seems it burnt fine, lubuntu beta here I go.21:10
jacobwyou may want to md5sum21:11
jacobw!md5sum21:11
lubotu3To verify your Ubuntu ISO image (or other files for which an MD5 checksum is provided), see http://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToMD5SUM or http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/LQ_ISO/Checking_the_md5sum_in_Windows21:11
andresinmpgot that one just in time before I afk21:12
andresinmpok... did not find it in the hash page. it is an lubuntu alfa would that be an exception?21:16
gordonjcpis there a way to unmount USB disks in Ubuntu, without it thinking that the disk is completely disconnected?21:16
andresinmplubuntu beta not listed.21:17
AlanBellandresinmp: where did you get the iso from exactly? is it the daily image or something?21:18
andresinmpfrom the email we got today on getting old pcs...21:19
andresinmphttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/TechnicalOverview/Beta1#Download_the_Beta_121:19
AlanBellhttp://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/releases/precise/beta-1/MD5SUMS21:20
andresinmpmatch!21:21
andresinmpthanks!21:21
virungaHi, i'd like to share files in my lan network but Personal File Sharing Preferences says "This feature cannot be enabled because the required packages are not installed on your system". I already installed samba, what dependencies does it need? Help please :)21:26
andresinmpjacobw so I reproduced it. how do I get to report it?21:30
andresinmpi get no dialog21:31
gordonjcpis there any documentation anywhere on what happens *in Ubuntu specifically* when you unmount something/21:31
gordonjcpbecause it's pretty much broken21:31
jacobwandresinmp: have you rebooted since running the command to start apport?21:31
virungagordonjcp, i think what happen is the same in debian, you could search in that ambient21:33
gordonjcpvirunga: no, it's not the same21:33
gordonjcpvirunga: in Ubuntu *specifically*, when I unmount the drive it disappears from the available drives completely, almost as though the USB port has been shut down21:34
* jacobw has also noticed this21:34
gordonjcpactually, it's weirder than that since the major device (in this case /dev/sdb) is still hanging around but with no visible partitions21:34
gordonjcpand with an apparent size of 0 blocks21:34
gordonjcpit's *extremely* annoying21:35
gordonjcpit's just about the one thing stopping me from using Ubuntu exclusively21:35
virungagordonjcp,uh21:35
AlanBellI think this is aggressive power management on USB ports still21:36
gordonjcppfff21:37
gordonjcptotally pointless on a Pentium 4 machine!21:37
* AlanBell is tempted to rearrange those words into a different order21:37
AlanBellso I know power management can shut down a USB port21:38
andresinmpjacobw no i have not. is it compulery?21:38
andresinmp*compulsery? heck mandatory?21:38
andresinmpdo not know word.21:39
jacobwandresinmp: the command manually starts apport, if you'd rebooted apport would not have started again after the reboot21:39
andresinmpsorry did not get that.21:40
andresinmpmeanwhile in the lubuntu 12.04 live cd https://twitter.com/#!/Andresinmp/status/176421071677964289/photo/121:41
virungaEnglish there's noal gallager on absolute radio, do you like it?21:41
virunga*he21:41
AlanBellandresinmp: not compulsory at all, it just helps you report bugs21:41
virungai'm sorry, i was wrong...21:41
AlanBellandresinmp: that picture doesn't look so good!21:42
andresinmpyes yes. Alanbell.21:42
jacobwi was of the opinion that apport would detect the crash and launch the report dialogue21:42
andresinmpi am trying to report. i reproduced the bug.21:42
andresinmpno report dialogue.21:43
andresinmp will try again.21:43
AlanBellyou can still do ubuntu-bug <packagename> and it should do the same sort of stuff21:43
jacobwah, mono21:44
jacobwno, brasero is not a mono app21:46
andresinmpalanbell thing sent me to launchpad. I will copy and paste stuff there...21:47
jacobw:)21:47
AlanBellyup, that is where it should send you :)21:47
AzelphurMy friends generating a rather interesting graphy thing live in #ubuntu, http://82.31.244.205/pyspy/ o.O21:48
* AlanBell installs openbve to get some screenshots of mono21:48
AlanBellAzelphur: yeah, popey was running that for a bit21:48
* jacobw remember popey using pyspy21:48
Azelphurhehe21:48
andresinmpokay reported.21:49
asherkinyou're probably thinking of piespy, I wrote that from scratch based off of it's research :P fairly sure no one's done dynamic rendering with it before21:50
jacobwI seem to remembers popey's instance being dynamic21:52
andresinmpnow lubuntu : sooo i guess I need to do more bug reporting https://twitter.com/#!/Andresinmp/status/176424675147128833/photo/121:52
AlanBelljacobw: no, it wasn't dynamic, but was time based, so it would do a rendering over time from the logs I think21:53
jacobwI see :)21:53
gordonjcpis there possibly a more technical channel I can ask about my USB problems in?21:53
jacobwgordonjcp: possibly #ubuntu-server?21:54
gordonjcpjacobw: hm, it's more of a desktop issue, but it could be worth a shot21:54
andresinmpIĺl go to lubuntu chanel see you guys thank you for your help21:54
jacobwthey'll probably be interested in power management21:54
gordonjcpI don't think it is power management21:55
gordonjcpafter the card is ejected, the bus is still powered21:55
AlanBellasherkin: so that is new stuff you wrote?21:55
AlanBellis it open source?21:56
jacobwit sounds if the major device file is being trunc'd21:56
asherkinAlanBell: yeah, one of the issues I ran into was that storing the old png images was massively space consuming (it rendered one every time the graph changed, 3 months of a relatively quiet channel took over 3 GB), all the data for that is saved as JSON, hopefully it'll be easier to store (yay text compression) and do some nice visulizations over time21:56
asherkinit will be, it's not really "ready" to be used yet21:57
AlanBellso it is HTML5 and lots of javascript in the browser?21:57
asherkinI'm sure Azelphur can drop a link in when it is, I'm not normally active on freenode :P21:57
Azelphurindeed :)21:58
asherkinJS and SVG, uses http://mbostock.github.com/d3/21:58
Azelphurasherkin: all the cool people are on freenode21:58
popeygordonjcp: #ubuntu-kernel during UK daytime21:58
AlanBellit does seem rather CPU hungry asherkin21:58
gordonjcppopey: oh well21:59
gordonjcppopey: that's not going to be possible for me any time soon21:59
gordonjcpArch Linux it is, then21:59
popeywell, you can try outside work hours21:59
popeyi was just setting expectations21:59
asherkinthats polling every 5 seconds and recalculating constantly, and with no caching, I pretty much disabled all the optimization for testing21:59
ali1234those guys don't talk at any time21:59
popeythey do if you ask them questions22:00
gordonjcpit's annoying because I've actually got to quite like Unity, but it's not packaged in any workable way for Arch22:00
jacobwthings are packaged in a workable for arch? :|22:00
popeyi wonder if that will change once 12.04 goes out22:00
popeygiven there will be a relatively stable codebase to port22:01
AzelphurI have 12.04 running on my phone :322:01
AlanBellarch does have a package manager, I understand it is simple and effective, but not sophisticated22:01
jacobwyes, i was aluding to 'not sophisticated' :)22:02
AlanBellI can see merit in a simple package manager, I have stuff I would like to package for Ubuntu but it is so hard22:03
ali1234my question must have been too hard for them22:06
mattti like arch packaging22:08
mattti've never gotten my head around debian packaging22:08
gordonjcpmattt: yeah22:08
gordonjcpyou have to be some sort of insane genius to understand the arcane closed world of Debian packaging22:08
jacobwclosed is the operative word22:09
matttgordonjcp: phew, thought it was just me22:09
gordonjcpI tried to package lysdr for Ubuntu22:09
gordonjcpnot a chance22:09
mattti don't even know where to start w/ debian packaging22:10
mattteven rpm seems 100x more straight-forward :D22:10
AlanBellthere are loads of places to start22:10
mattttoo many22:10
gordonjcpdebian packaging is basically a closed proprietary system22:10
matttthat's maybe the problem22:10
matttall sorts of tools and ways of packaging debian packages22:10
jacobwi would disagree22:10
gordonjcpthere's no documentation and no way to get started with it unless you're one of the Debian elite inner circle22:10
AlanBellyou kind of need to know what all the deprecated packaging methods are to know what you are supposed to use22:10
jacobwit's just that there's much outdated documentation floating around22:11
ali1234nah, rpm is no better in that respect22:11
jacobwer, what AlanBell said :)22:11
ali1234rpm is layers within layers22:11
ali1234instead of debian/control you have a .spec file22:11
ali1234except you're not supposed to write that yourself, you are supposed to generate it from a .yaml22:11
ali1234but wait, you're not supposed to write the .yaml yourself either22:12
ali1234there's a tool that makes that22:12
matttyaml?22:12
ali1234i can't remember what file it takes as input22:12
matttwow, i guess i haven't played w/ RPM for ages :)22:12
gordonjcpin Arch, you get a sample PKGBUILD file, fill in the blanks, and type "makepkg"22:12
ali1234all the files are virtually identical22:12
ali1234in the end they all contain the lines "configure; make; make install"22:12
gordonjcpif you're being a total smartarse you do it in a chroot to ensure your deps are fulfilled correctly22:12
ali1234plus extra hackery to make it work22:13
ali1234yes, well, rpm and debian are identical22:14
matttperhaps22:14
ali1234you get a blank file. you fill in the blanks22:14
matttbut i can at least see the logic in making an RPM package, or at least was able to prior to yaml22:14
ali1234you run rpmbuild or dkpg-buildpackage22:14
ali1234simple right?22:14
jpdsgordonjcp: Actually, it's not a closed system.22:15
matttwe should get a uk debian/ubuntu packager to go through the steps with us in person some time :)22:15
mattti can provide the location22:15
ali1234yeah i've seen enough packaging demos to know that is a waste of time22:16
ali1234they always demonstrate using "hello world"22:16
ali1234anyone can package that22:16
AlanBellI can't22:16
mattthahaha22:16
AlanBellI have a hello world I want to package, it is here http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/quicklists.py22:17
jpdsali1234: And it's the same under-lying principles for any other package.22:17
AlanBellone python file that should run when you start a unity session22:17
matttgosh, packing python script is probably even more complicated22:17
ali1234AlanBell: that's already much more complicated than packaging hello world22:18
AlanBellI haven't got the faintest idea how to package that, apart from using quickly, which brings in all kinds of other stuff22:18
ali1234you say it should "run when unity session"22:18
ali1234how does that work? that's not a packaging issue22:18
ali1234all the package manager can do is dump the file somewhere of your choosing, and maybe edit a file22:18
AlanBellit should probably put it in startup applications or something22:19
ali1234well packages can't do that directly22:19
ali1234that is, they can't edit per-user configuration, at least not easily22:20
ali1234so you need to find out how to add something to the default startup applications22:20
ali1234note - that has nothing to do with packaging22:20
AlanBelldropbox manages it22:20
jpdsAlanBell: apt-get source dropbox; look at the postinst file.22:20
gordonjcpjpds: it's *effectively* a closed system, since it is entirely undocumented22:21
AlanBellgordonjcp: it is overdocumented22:21
gordonjcpjpds: or rather, extremely badly documented which is if anything slightly worse22:21
jpdsgordonjcp: Er, it is; you probably just don't want to read all the comprehensive docs.22:21
gordonjcpit's also hideously overdesigned22:22
AlanBellthe debian packaging manual is huge22:22
jacobwthe debian project is huge :|22:24
AlanBellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/869042/ one dropbox postinst script22:24
Laneyfor I in /home/*/.dropbox-dist; do22:25
Laneyno22:25
AlanBellthat doesn't look friendly22:25
ali1234EW22:25
ali1234ok, blueman adds itself to the list of startup apps when you install it, please use that as an example instead :)22:25
ali1234but note that all it does in postinst is reload dbus22:26
Laney/etc/xdg/autostart22:26
ali1234so it must be possible to do it by dropping the right file in the right place22:26
AlanBellLaney: ok, so the package should put a desktop file in there then?22:27
jpdsgordonjcp: Or rather it's the result of 19 years of engineering.22:27
ali1234AlanBell: looks about right22:28
AlanBelland it could put a different .desktop file in /usr/share/applications presumably22:28
AlanBellthere is actually a lot less scary stuff in the dropbox .deb file than I expected, just 4 files in the /debian directory22:29
Laneyright, and it's not a packaging issue, rather managed by a cross-desktop (fdo) draft specification22:31
AlanBellso I make a filestructure in a folder with everything where I want it to go, make a /debian folder with those files in it (mostly empty) and zip it up and name it .deb22:31
jpdsAs I said, the same under-lying principles; it's very easy.22:31
ali1234AlanBell: no, not at all22:32
ali1234well, the first part, sort of22:33
AlanBellso do I have to figure out if I want to use debhelper dh cdbs dh_make  or something else?22:34
ali1234you don't want to use any of that stuff22:34
Laneyyou should go to #ubuntu-motu or #ubuntu-packaging fyi22:34
Laneythe latter for PPA stuff22:34
jpdsAlanBell: That's up to personal choice.22:35
* popey hugs debuild22:35
AlanBelloh, I missed one22:35
AlanBellpbuilder too probably22:36
Laneysome of those are tools for different tasks :-)22:36
ali1234for a package that doesn't need to build anything, and which you are both maintainer and developer, you won't need any of that22:36
AlanBellso I just write the control file in gedit directly?22:37
ali1234sure. use a template22:40
ali1234http://www.nerdliness.com/article/2007/08/27/creating-simple-ubuntu-debian-packages22:43
ali1234that should be enough for getting 2 files into the fs22:44
AlanBellgiving it a go22:45
ali1234now the problem with this method is you won't get a source package22:47
AlanBellso that means no PPA22:47
ali1234perhaps22:47
Laneymore importantly it means you get the wrong mental model of packaging22:48
Laneynn22:50
AlanBellso source packages are an orig.tar.bz2, plus a .dsc plus a debian.tar.gz22:50
AlanBellnn Laney22:51
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
ali1234AlanBell: i think the point is that your source should be "installable"22:59
ali1234for a python script that generally means making a setup.py22:59
ali1234http://savetheions.com/2010/01/20/packaging-python-applicationsmodules-for-debian/23:01
AlanBellwell my hacked together binary package doesn't work, I will try that guide sometime over the next few days23:08
gordonjcpAlanBell: that's because it's a Debian "package"23:17
gordonjcpthey never entirely work, unless they're specially blessed by the packaging Inner Circle23:17
AlanBellthen again . . .23:18
ubuntuuk-planet[Gareth France] Tottenham Court Road  3rd March 2012 - http://cliftonts.co.uk/cubuntu/?p=12523:18
AlanBellI think I just need a dependency on python-wnck23:18
popeyhmm, my mums computer is on, but i suspect it has a different IP so the router port forwarding isnt working so I cant ssh to it23:19
AlanBellgordonjcp: the package worked fundamentally23:19
AlanBellpopey: can she ssh to you?23:20
popeyshe is in bed and has left it on23:20
popeyI know it's up, prey is checking in with my server23:20
popeyah, i see23:21
popeyi just used landscape to remotely run ifconfig on it23:21
popeythe ethernet cable looks like it's fallen out23:21
popeyit has a wifi address but not a wired address, which is the one I port forwarded to23:21
* popey ponders sending wget the trublr deb23:22
jpdsgordonjcp: So, missing dependency == inner circle, I see.23:25
AlanBellhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unity-window-quicklists.deb23:25
AlanBellnever install random deb files etc etc23:26
AlanBellbut I think that kind of works, it should probably start quicklists.py in the postinst, at the moment you have to log out and back in to get it to start23:26
gordonjcpjpds: if it wasn't a closed proprietary system, it would be easier for normal developers to create Debian packages23:27
AlanBellit isn't closed or proprietary23:27
AlanBellit is just difficult23:27
popeyi have made packages in the past23:28
gordonjcpit's not meaningfully documented, and it's only used by Debianish distros23:28
popeynot very good ones mind ☺23:29
gordonjcpand if you want to use it, you have to deal with the frankly rather hostile Debian "community"23:29
jpdsgordonjcp: So you're discounting the Ubuntu community?23:30
gordonjcpjpds: apart from this channel, yes23:31
gordonjcpjpds: this is about the only outpost of sanity in the #ubuntu channels23:31
jpdsgordonjcp: #ubuntu-motu maybe?23:32
popeyI've found the -motu people very helpful when I've needed to package stuff23:32
AlanBellright, well that kind of works. I am done for now, might learn how to do it properly next week some time.23:32
ali1234i thinkt he problem isn't that packaging is hard, it's that development got a lot easier23:46
ali1234while packaging is still the same as it was 10 years ago23:46
ali1234if you develop your software using autotools, packaging is easy23:47
ali1234unfortunately only about 3 people understand how to use autotools23:48

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