[00:57] <danfish> exit
[00:57] <Azelphur> quit
[00:58] <daftykins> ragequit
[08:25] <MartijnVdS> \o
[08:51] <popey> Morning
[08:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> \o/ popey
[08:51]  * TheOpenSourcerer haz tickets
[08:52] <popey> yay
[08:54] <TheOpenSourcerer> Time for going back to bed now. Was up at 04:20#
[08:56] <MartijnVdS> 3.5 hours..
[08:56] <MartijnVdS> then: http://20vanalphen.nl/web/images/uploads/bestanden/Parcours_overzicht_2011_totaal_Pdf.pdf
[08:59] <AlanBell> wow you are doing parcour?
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: 20km run/race
[09:00] <AlanBell> not the leaping off buildings kind?
[09:01] <MartijnVdS> No, the "We've closed the roads so you can run" kind :)
[09:01] <MartijnVdS> with ~8k people
[09:01] <AlanBell> nice
[09:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> night night all.
[09:01] <MartijnVdS> \o TheOpenSourcerer
[09:06]  * dwatkins wanders in with tea
[10:16] <diplo> Morning all
[10:33] <SuperEngineer> o/
[10:38] <SuperEngineer> Huawei E367 mobile dongle - will it work oh with Ubuntu?
 [can't test it myself until 14-03 - blew my current allowance - complained - they upgraded me to  the E367 with a 15GB allowance - but must not use till 14th...
[10:40]  * MartijnVdS has a laptop with built-in 3G modem, so I have no idea
[10:40] <SuperEngineer> oh dear - just seen bug #776959
[10:41] <SuperEngineer> ....but it *does* claim a fix :)
[10:46] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: can't you rush out & get one now so you can test it for me?  :D
[11:25] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[11:27] <SuperEngineer> o/ brobostigon
[11:28] <brobostigon> o/ SuperEngineer
[11:33]  * SuperEngineer prepares to turn off brain & go shopping.... bfn
[11:33] <brobostigon> similer here, and it is raining.
[12:33] <bittin> i just installed Ubuntu :o
[12:33] <Myrtti> woo
[12:33] <bittin> got a new PC :p
[12:33] <bittin> but need to update it alot only CD i found was 10.10
[12:34] <bittin> this computer seems faster with Ubuntu
[12:34] <bittin> but still want Windows 7 for gayming
[12:38] <AlanBell> hi bittin
[12:39] <bittin> Hi AlanBell
[12:39] <AlanBell> yeah, I heard there are games on windows
[12:39] <bittin> playing with my new Intel Dualcore i got from dad and his wife
[12:39] <AlanBell> only ever found minesweeper and solitaire when I used it though
[12:39] <bittin> they wanted to buy a new laptop instead, and only problem with this was that the SATA drive needed a change :p
[12:40] <bittin> haven't used Ubuntu in forever
[12:40] <bittin> its purple nowdays
[12:40] <AlanBell> I have a new desktop on order for my parents, should arrive this week
[12:40] <bittin> cool
[12:40] <AlanBell> going to put 12.04 on it for them
[12:41] <bittin> cool
[12:41] <bittin> last time i used Ubuntu it was 10.04
[12:41] <bittin> but had a 10.10 CD laying around, but updating this to 11.04 atm
[12:41] <bittin> update-manager -d
[12:41] <bittin> :)
[12:43] <bittin> had some old P3s and P4s running Windows XP and Lubuntu here, now i got this DualCore monster running Windows 7 and Ubuntu 11.04
[12:43] <AlanBell> I would keep going with the upgrades to get it to 11.10
[12:43] <AlanBell> and maybe the beta of 12.04
[12:44] <AlanBell> the earlier versions of Unity are a bit challenging in places
[12:45] <bittin> ah i think i will use gnome3 instead
[12:45] <bittin> not a big fan of Unity
[12:46] <bittin> should try to get a better gfx card then: Radeon HD 3450 also
[12:46] <bittin> and play some BF3
[12:47] <bittin> Ubuntu Natty Narwahls Narwhals Narwhals Swimming in the Ocean
[12:48] <AlanBell> causing a comotion
[13:18] <penguin42> well they would with those long pointy things
[13:21]  * SuperEngineer settles down from shopping... turns brain back on
[13:22] <AlanBell> it is snowing
[13:22] <SuperEngineer> no it's not
[13:22]  * penguin42 agrees with SuperEngineer
[13:23] <SuperEngineer> majority verdict has it - it is *not* snowing - therefore AlanBell  is on drugs?
[13:24] <AlanBell> well sleety rain
[13:24] <SuperEngineer> [pardon the humour - had apint on way back from shopping ;)
[14:01] <PhantomBoo> hi SuperEngineer
[14:01] <SuperEngineer> hi PhantomBoo
[14:02] <PhantomBoo> SuperEngineer: do you think they've guessed?
[14:02] <SuperEngineer> PhantomBoo: nah.. not for at at least 10 secounds yet
[14:03] <PhantomBoo> SuperEngineer: so how's the dual personality going?
[14:03] <AlanBell> thats a nice IP address you have there
[14:03] <SuperEngineer> PhantomBoo: ooo, *very* much the same as yours
[14:04] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[14:04] <AlanBell> got a new device?
[14:04] <SuperEngineer> [just trying out IRC in Pigrin... nah! sticking with this methinks]
[14:05] <SuperEngineer> [....bye PhantomBoo ]
[14:05] <AlanBell> I tried the mono based IRC client a while back, seemed OK if you are not in many channels
[14:05] <SuperEngineer> that meant to say *pidgin btw]
[14:06] <AlanBell> there won't be any mono on the 12.04 CD now I presume
[14:06] <AlanBell> theopensourcerer should do a blog post on how to install mono :)
[14:06] <SuperEngineer> yeh... what was the decision on that?  momo - or no mono?
[14:06] <AlanBell> I think no mono
[14:06] <SuperEngineer> oh well
[14:06] <AlanBell> I will check in a bit
[14:07] <AlanBell> wonder if directhex can help with a command to install every mono based thing in the repos
[14:12] <AlanBell> no mono that I can find
[14:13] <penguin42> AlanBell: apt-cache rdepends maybe?
[14:13] <AlanBell> yeah, I was just thinking that
[14:13] <AlanBell> so what do all mono thingies depend on?
[14:14] <AlanBell> mono-runtime?
[14:15] <SuperEngineer> I thought the decision [if mono was not going to be CD},  it would be available in repos [though I haven't checked]
[14:16] <AlanBell> it is
[14:16] <AlanBell> there was never any question about removing it from the repos
[14:16] <AlanBell> except on some really obscure architecture like solaris or aix
[14:17] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/868268/
[14:17] <SuperEngineer> still seems a waste to move "CD" size up to just above Cd & thewrefore DVD required... & not include it?
[14:18] <AlanBell> on line 45 of that there is |libzeroc-ice3.4-cil. What is the | for?
[14:18] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Stuart Langridge] My new phone, 2012 edition - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2012/03/04/my-new-phone-2012-edition
[14:18] <AlanBell> dunno, have we bust the CD size?
[14:19] <SuperEngineer> I thought that was also the intention [/me looks for relevant info]
[14:20] <SuperEngineer> 	
[14:20] <SuperEngineer> 6 Key Changes in Next Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin | Tech Drive-in
[14:20] <SuperEngineer> Nov 12, 2011 ... Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin's ISO size will increase to 750MB and hence it won't fit into CD anymore. It is a rather reasonable move in my ...
[14:21] <AlanBell> sure, it was appproved that it wouldn't be a problem if we went to 750, but right now it is 701MB
[14:21] <SuperEngineer> ooo - now that *is* a pleasant surprise
[14:22]  * TOShrun haz installed 12.04 on my lappy.
[14:23] <TOShrun> One thing I find a tad annoying is if you minimise an app there is no obvious way to find which desktop it is on. If you click the launcher to maximise it again and you are in the wrong workspace then nothing happens.
[14:24]  * SuperEngineer hates that "word"  [i.e. "lappy"]
[14:24] <AlanBell> what you need is my little script to add window quicklists to the launcher icons
[14:24] <TOShrun> Ah.
[14:25] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/quicklists.py
[14:25] <AlanBell> grab that, make it executeable and run it
[14:26] <AlanBell> then right click things in the launcher and see lots of happy lists of windows
[14:28] <paul_> quit
[14:31] <TOShrun> AlanBell:  Still doesn't tell me which wspace an app is on
[14:31] <TOShrun> Or do I need to restart unity
[14:31] <AlanBell> no, but you can select it and you go to the right workspace and it unminimises
[14:32] <AlanBell> would you like it to show the workspace in the quicklists?
[14:32] <AlanBell> or sort by workspace or something?
[14:32] <TOShrun> Not for me it doesn't
[14:33] <TOShrun> Ah sorry my bad left click, not right :-)
[14:33] <AlanBell> odd. If I minimise something, then go to a different workspace and select it from the quicklist then I whoosh over to the correct workspace and it opens
[14:33] <TOShrun> thanks, that is a big improvement
[14:34] <SuperEngineer> a thought [ & a question ]... is 12.04 the time to move to 64bit - or stay at 32bit?  Are apps in 12.04/64bit ok for day to say use?
[14:34] <TOShrun> I was using the right click popup menu to select it. That doesn't seem to wiz me to the right workspace
[14:34] <AlanBell> SuperEngineer: you are still on 32 bit!!
[14:34] <SuperEngineer> yep
[14:35] <TOShrun> SuperEngineer: I've not used a 32bit desktop since 9.10 IIRC
[14:35] <SuperEngineer> from habit only
[14:35]  * SuperEngineer downloads 64bit to try
[14:35] <AlanBell> yeah, 64 bit is totally and utterly fine
[14:35] <SuperEngineer> thanks
[14:35] <AlanBell> installing skype pulls in a heap of 32bit stuff, then it works
[14:35] <AlanBell> flash works fine, everything works fine
[14:36] <TOShrun> Anyone using skype-wrapper successfully on 12.04?
[14:36] <AlanBell> what does that do?
[14:36] <TOShrun> Puts skype into the messaging menu
[14:36] <TOShrun> Apparently
[14:37] <TOShrun> But it was a bag of fail when I tried it yesterday.
[14:37] <TOShrun> NOt that I tried very hard. Only started it once then had to go out.
[14:37] <AlanBell> oh OK, that might be useful, better than the panel icon that vanishes for no apparent reason
[14:37] <TOShrun> Yes.
[14:38] <AlanBell> !info skype-wrapper
[14:38] <SuperEngineer> so I always knew which to pick in 32 bit but which of the many/sevaral in 64 bit ? [desktop].  intel chip - use the amd64 iso?
[14:38] <AlanBell> what is the package name for it?
[14:38] <TOShrun> it's a PPA
[14:38] <TOShrun> Google it.
[14:38] <AlanBell> oh, right
[14:38] <TOShrun> You need his unstable pps for precise.
[14:38] <AlanBell> SuperEngineer: amd64 iso
[14:39] <TOShrun> s\ppa
[14:39] <SuperEngineer> thanks AlanBell
[14:50] <ali1234> someone needs to hack the n900 skype binaries to run on x86 thru qemu
[14:51] <ali1234> that would be the best thing ever
[14:51] <AlanBell> arm binaries?
[14:52] <ali1234> or even better canonical should licence them from collabora
[14:52] <penguin42> what exactly does n900 run?
[14:53] <ali1234> debian
[14:53] <ali1234> mangled debian, but still debian
[14:53] <penguin42> then you should be able to install qemu-user or possibly qemu-user-static and an ARM userland and get it to run - with a bit of a fight
[14:53] <ali1234> yes but its not a stand alone exe
[14:54] <ali1234> it's a proper telepathy plugin
[14:54] <penguin42> that's a bit of a pain; it's probably easier to run the whole thing
[14:54] <ali1234> well yeah but i can already do that
[14:54] <ali1234> skype UI sucks
[14:55] <AlanBell> http://eion.robbmob.com/ does that do enough?
[14:57] <ali1234> maybe
[14:57] <ali1234> i'll try it in a bit
[14:58] <AlanBell> it says it will do everything the skype UI will do, but I only see screenshots of text IM chatting
[14:58] <ali1234> yeah
[14:58] <AlanBell> I think voice and video calling is kind of a core feature of skype
[14:58] <ali1234> indeed
[15:00] <SuperEngineer> while I'm downloading the 64bit beta  - here's a [non-Ubuntu] question that's bugging me...
[15:00] <s-fox> Hello
[15:00] <SuperEngineer> what the heck did I put in twitter [#SuprEngr] that made my following jump 80% [from a very low 5 to a low 9]?  I'm only a casual user!
[15:01] <SuperEngineer> o/ s-fox - glad to see see you here
[15:01] <s-fox> Hello SuperEngineer
[15:02] <s-fox> How are you doing, been a while
[15:02] <SuperEngineer> [assume s- = silver?]
[15:02] <SuperEngineer> I've been ok thanks
[15:02] <s-fox> Good :)
[15:03] <SuperEngineer> I hope all well with your good self
[15:03] <s-fox> Yes, I am well again thank you :) Watching the 6 nations rugby
[15:03] <SuperEngineer> :)
[15:04] <SuperEngineer> [no better sport than that!]
[15:07] <SuperEngineer> for those that are wondering.. s-fox  offered to mentor me in #Ubuntu-Beginners - but I kept getting sent from home and never had a chance to follow it through!
[15:07] <directhex> AlanBell: mono-complete installs all of src:mono. there's no command to install all mono-based apps 'cos that'd be stupid
[15:08] <AlanBell> yeah, it would be stupid, but I am not going to let a little thing like that stop me
[15:08] <AlanBell> the rdepends of mono-runtime looks fairly comprehensive, do you think it misses anything?
[15:11] <directhex> AlanBell: mono-runtime brings in the bare minimum - enough for the mono infrastructure to work (e.g. installing mono libraries uses the "gacutil" command, mono-runtime pulls in enough for gacutil to run)
[15:11] <diplo> Afternoon guys
[15:11] <diplo> Any of you used Nginx before ?
[15:11] <TOShrun> diplo: Briefly. As a reverse proxy
[15:12] <penguin42> directhex: Right but every mono app is going to be an redepend on mono-runtime then ?
[15:12] <diplo> Just failing to get php to work with it, wondering if anyone has any pointers
[15:12] <TOShrun> it's fastcgi iiuc
[15:12] <diplo> yeah installed php5-fpm and it's running and all looks good
[15:13] <diplo> No errors, just get 502 bad gateway after 10 secs or so of trying to load
[15:13] <directhex> penguin42: yes, assuming it wasn't packaged by babboons. anything with a .net .exe file should depend on mono-runtime
[15:13] <AlanBell> directhex: if I install this lot http://paste.ubuntu.com/868268/ have I missed anything?
[15:14] <TOShrun> Ireland got a sneaky try then!
[15:14] <TOShrun> Bad France
[15:14] <directhex> AlanBell: nothing obvious. except for the monodevelop addins
[15:15] <directhex> and various other plugins i guess, e.g. banshee plugins
[15:17] <directhex> not sure why you'd want all that installed though, it's such an ecclectic mix of random apps
[15:18] <directhex> bible study, IDE, graphic calculator, etc
[15:23] <AlanBell> directhex: well theopensourcerer has done various blog articles on the mono stuff on the CD and how to take it all off, I thought as there is no mono stuff on the 12.04 CD then an article about how to put it all on would be nice
[15:23] <directhex> ah, the ol' reddit switch-a-roo
[15:31] <TOShrun> AlanBell: So is there no tomboy in 12.04 then? I thought that was a pretty popular app.
[15:32] <AlanBell> you can install it and if you are upgrading it will still be there
[15:33] <TOShrun> ok
[15:33] <AlanBell> and it still syncs to Ubuntu One I think, just doesn't expose the content on the website there
[15:33] <AlanBell> if I read the articles right, I don't use it myself
[15:35] <TOShrun> me neither.
[15:36] <TOShrun> So if 12.04 is mono free wtf won't it fit on a CD??? What has been added to make it so much bigger?
[15:36] <AlanBell> um, it *does* fit
[15:37] <TOShrun> Oh - I though I saw you saying earlier it was going to be 750Mb or so.
[15:37] <AlanBell> no, I quite specifically said the opposite :)
[15:37] <AlanBell> it is 701MB
[15:37] <TOShrun> ah my bad
[15:38] <AlanBell> it was agreed that it could go to 750, but they didn't need to
[15:38] <AlanBell> largely because of the mono change I guess
[15:38] <TOShrun> So no need for a Chicken Little remix this time round then...
[15:39] <AlanBell> nope, directhex made that
[15:39] <TOShrun> I know
[15:39] <directhex> i blew away the CLR repo a few days ago
[15:52] <TOShrun> Annoying that a number of the Thunderbird dialogues are too long for my (normal size) laptop monitor.
[15:55] <AlanBell> like "Thunderbirds are GO!"
[15:55] <directhex> FIVE!
[15:55] <directhex> FOUR!
[15:55] <AlanBell> FOUR!
[15:56] <directhex> THREE!
[15:56] <AlanBell> TWO!
[15:56] <directhex> ONE!
[16:02] <SuperEngineer> stop shouting - my virtual ears hurt
[16:03] <AlanBell> 0 upgraded, 411 newly installed, 0 to remove and 88 not upgraded.
[16:03] <AlanBell> Need to get 170 MB of archives.
[16:03] <AlanBell> After this operation, 530 MB of additional disk space will be used.
[16:03] <AlanBell> is what is required to install all of mono (less the plugins and fiddly bits)
[16:04] <hamitron> why do something "stupid" like that? ;)
[16:05] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/868423/ to see what it does
[16:07] <directhex> well you're pulling in apache
[16:08] <TOShrun> why doesn't gwibber have it's buttons on the top bar? I thought it was an "integrated" app?
[16:08] <TOShrun> Oh I see, only when it is full screen.
[16:10] <directhex> and i wouldn't bother pulling in debug packages either
[16:13] <directhex> AlanBell:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/868433/ is a list without pointless duplication or highly esoteric interfaces to development tools nobody uses
[16:17] <directhex> hmph, autopano-sift is still in the archve
[16:19] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/868442/ looks good
[16:24] <directhex> AlanBell: bear in mind more than 100 meg of that is model trains.
[16:24] <directhex> http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/bve-route-cross-city-south
[16:29] <AlanBell> excellent
[16:32] <AlanBell> without openBVE it drops from 157MB to 128MB of archives, so only 29MB of compressed train
[16:33] <directhex> AlanBell: space on disk though
[16:34] <AlanBell> yup
[16:35] <directhex> the winforms-and-tao-opengl mix used by openbve is also used by other cross-platform games, even commercial ones
[16:40]  * MartijnVdS listens to some Demoscene Time Machine
[16:40] <MartijnVdS> Bleepy goodness!
[16:46] <pangolin> listening to popey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oG1WkI8h40 talk about some cool stuff
[16:51] <ali1234> AlanBell: why do you want to install "everything mono"
[16:52] <kvarley> How can I give my user account privileges to read and write in folders/files which are owned by www-data?
[16:52] <ali1234> gpasswd -a <you> www-data
[16:53] <kvarley> ali1234: What does that command do?
[16:53] <ali1234> add you to group www-data
[16:53] <kvarley> ali1234: Ok, thanks =]
[16:53] <ali1234> of course it's debatable whether this is a good idea or not
[16:54] <kvarley> Why would it be a bad idea? I guess in terms of security. But the alternative is a lot of chowning
[16:57] <kvarley> ali1234: Trying to "rm index.html" from /var/www gives me permission denied after adding myself to the group via the command you gave me. Any ideas?
[16:57] <ali1234> you have to log out and log in again
[16:57] <ali1234> and you have to check group permissions too
[17:00] <kvarley> ali1234: Doh. /var/www is by default owned by root, not www-data
[17:15] <MartijnVdS> so you can't change the web site when you h4x0r it
[17:18] <AlanBell> ali1234: well I wanted to find out what everything mono is
[17:25] <ali1234> AlanBell: but why?
[17:41] <penguin42> to see what's left to replace?
[17:44] <Myrtti> oh good. aq doesn't mention me in the blog post.
[17:44] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: you wanted a mention?
[17:44] <Myrtti> no I didn't
[17:45] <Myrtti> If I had, I'd said "oh boo."
[17:45] <MartijnVdS> maybe you were being ironic/sarcastic
[17:45] <MartijnVdS> hard to tell from this side of the internet ;)
[17:49] <Myrtti> oh dear
[17:49] <Myrtti> SO just found cooking.stackexchange.com
[18:59] <gord> thinking about getting myself one of those little robot hoovers, the amazon reviews are a great read: so far it has resisted chucking itself down the stairs "which was nice"
[18:59] <Azelphur> hahaha
[19:00] <hamitron> I bet 99% of people "test" the stairs on the first day ;)
[19:00] <hamitron> just too tempting
[19:00] <gord> they still don't seem to have invented a little robot hoover than can do the stairs too though, once they do that, we'll know its the future
[19:01] <hamitron> be nice if it made coffee too
[19:01] <gord> i think your looking for a maid or something
[19:01] <gord> robot maid
[19:01] <gord> try japan
[19:01] <hamitron> why not just a maid? ;/
[19:02] <gord> robot maid is the future, regular maid is the past
[19:02] <hamitron> I personally doubt all these robots will happen
[19:03] <hamitron> some huge man made problem will come about before we get that far
[19:04] <gord> well it already is happening, more menial jobs get replaced with robots every day - not what you might envisage from the jetsons, but still, mechanical-computerized devices
[19:04] <hamitron> yeh
[19:04] <hamitron> I'm thinking totally automated stuff
[19:05] <hamitron> :)
[19:05] <gord> bank robot gives me my money so i can go to the asda robot to get my noms so i can come home and have my robot hoover take away all the crumbs from said noms
[19:06] <hamitron> haven't these robots made you redundant when it comes to the transfer of money, with your cash cards? ;)
[19:07] <gord> i still have to get cash out occasionally :) the wonderful fantastic local chinese two streets over doesn't accept cards
[19:07] <hamitron> haha
[19:07] <gord> i would eat there every night if i didn't think it would make me grow two sizes too big
[19:08] <bigcalm> Who needs a robot maid when you can have a RoboGeisha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgrKLjoWcbs
[19:38] <dwatkins> wait, what?
[19:38] <dwatkins> there's someone inside her, though... I'm confused
[19:38] <dwatkins> the tank is awesome
[19:51] <dwatkins> Brian Blessed is going into space.
[19:52] <bigcalm> Fly my bird men
[19:52] <dwatkins> bigcalm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcDN409ZBv4 ;)
[19:52] <popey> evening
[19:52] <dwatkins> (I know that's a Flash Gordon reference, but I'd just seen this video)
[19:52] <dwatkins> hiya popey
[19:53] <czajkowski> evening folks
[19:56] <dwatkins> hi czajkowski also
[19:57] <czajkowski> good weekend folks ?
[19:58] <dwatkins> Today I learned that people clone their pets. It's been an amusing weekend in general.
[19:58] <dwatkins> How's czajkowski?
[20:04] <czajkowski> good thanks my folks were over
[20:04] <czajkowski> so ate lots of yummy foods, and caught a play and did some sight seeing
[20:04] <czajkowski> anyone know how a person gets to torquay if they don't have access to a car, train seems very long
[20:05] <AlanBell> helicopter
[20:05] <dwatkins> thumb a lift?
[20:06] <popey> train is quite short, the track is very long though
[20:06] <czajkowski> popey: looking at 5 hrs and 2 changes
[20:07] <czajkowski> just wondered was there an airport in the region or something
[20:07] <dwatkins> czajkowski: whereabouts from?
[20:07] <czajkowski> london
[20:07] <popey> sounds about right
[20:07] <popey> 4 hours from farnborough
[20:07] <dwatkins> yeah, google maps says 6 hours via public transport in general
[20:07] <AlanBell> it is a proper long way by car
[20:07] <popey> its 3-3.5 hours by car from farnborough
[20:07] <popey> so yeah, long
[20:07] <dwatkins> the trains are pretty good west out of London as I imagine you're aware, looks like they aren't so good south from Weston
[20:08] <czajkowski> so brighton, torquay and beckenham  are 3 plays I want to see but have yet to do so after being here 16 months :/
[20:08] <popey> torquay isnt much to see
[20:08] <popey> plenty better places
[20:08] <czajkowski> I know but I've just had it in my head and watched a funny show
[20:08] <popey> ah
[20:08] <czajkowski> wont be till the weather picks up
[20:08] <dwatkins> could do them in sequence, I guess
[20:09] <popey> brighton is nice and easy
[20:09] <popey> i used to go there quite a bit
[20:09] <czajkowski> am open to suggestions to see places in the UK
[20:09] <czajkowski> specificaly the england and wales bit
[20:09] <popey> depends what you want to see and do ☺
[20:09] <czajkowski> :)
[20:09] <AlanBell> faulty towers isn't a real hotel in torquay
[20:09] <hamitron> visit Hull first, and everywhere will be great
[20:10] <czajkowski> AlanBell: thats every day in this apartment :)
[20:10] <dwatkins> Oxford's nice, czajkowski.
[20:10] <AlanBell> Farnham is great :)
[20:10] <czajkowski> well given this is where I go when I go homem http://url.ie/e79n
[20:10] <czajkowski> aye Oxford and cambridge are on my to see list
[20:10] <dwatkins> :)
[20:11] <SuperEngineer> suggest - if visiting Torquay - hope on  quick bus to Paignton, or better still Dartmouth -  so much better
[20:11] <SuperEngineer> *hop
[20:13] <czajkowski> hmm can see a lot of people were active at UGJ over the weekend, good few questions tagged against launchpad instead of ubuntu
[20:15] <daubers> \o/ bletchley park
[20:16] <daubers> czajkowski: Also, a trip to the Gower would be awesome
[20:16] <daubers> Best Ice Cream in the world at Verdis in the mumbles
[20:19] <popey> Beer is nice. (the place)
[20:19] <popey> There's a neat train place there
[20:20] <czajkowski> shall make a list and do some sight seeing this summer
[20:20] <czajkowski> cheers
[20:20] <popey> we should do a beer train run again sometime
[20:20] <popey> http://www.watercressonline.co.uk/section.php?xSec=191
[20:20] <daubers> czajkowski: Geeknics!
[20:20] <daubers> Geeknic in the Gower be aces
[20:20] <czajkowski> daubers: I as thinking more summer holidays but yeah :)
[20:22] <daubers> Still aiming to do a Geeknic at Bletchley
[20:22] <czajkowski> popey: if you organise one let me know so I can tell J more his kinda thing than mine I'd die from all the beer
[20:22] <AlanBell> there is cider too
[20:22] <czajkowski> :)
[20:23] <popey> the beer is not compulsory to drink
[20:23] <popey> we mostly go for the chatter / social
[20:23] <czajkowski> ahh ok
[20:24] <brobostigon> intellectualism.*
[20:24] <popey> but the beer is of course an added bonus at 2 quid a pint
[20:24] <brobostigon> \o/
[20:27] <czajkowski> popey: wow
[20:27] <czajkowski> popey: so when we going
[20:27]  * AlanBell gets out credit card
[20:27] <AlanBell> which one do you want?
[20:27] <AlanBell> lets try and make sure I am not on holiday this time
[20:28] <AlanBell> I seem to recall I was having an unutterably ghastly time in the Gower last time there was a RAT outing
[20:29] <ollyclark> czajkowski: sorry bit behind in the conversation, there is an airport at Exeter, not sure if you can fly from London though?
[20:29] <czajkowski> ollyclark: thanks
[20:31] <czajkowski> ah yes but I've one stop via AMS or Jersey
[20:31] <czajkowski> train it shall be
[20:31] <czajkowski> AlanBell: popey july ?
[20:33] <popey> july sounds good
[20:49] <andresinmp> hi all, I am trying to burn an lubuntu CD.  brasero says that my empty cd is not adaquate media
[20:49] <andresinmp> I then try to run it again (from CLI) and it says that brasero is already open.
[20:50] <jacobw> use the `killall` command to kill brasero, `killall brasero`
[20:51] <andresinmp> thanks, letś see if that worked.
[20:52] <andresinmp> simulating the burn.
[20:57] <andresinmp> humm, simulation finished OK, it ejects it and says: error while burning media closed or not recordable.
[20:59] <AlanBell> Saturday 7th July 2012? for the RAT
[20:59] <jacobw> RAT?
[20:59] <jacobw> andresinmp: which version of ubuntu are you using?
[20:59] <andresinmp> CLI says brasero:6184: gtk-critical **: gtktree_model_get_iter_first:  assertion `GTK_IS_TREE_MODEL (tree_model)' failed
[21:00] <AlanBell> http://www.watercressline.co.uk/Our-Services/RAT
[21:00] <andresinmp> 11.10
[21:00] <ali1234> don't do a simulation
[21:00] <jacobw> andresinmp: that's normal, its a GTK warning
[21:00] <ali1234> just write it
[21:01] <ali1234> maybe the image is too big?
[21:01] <andresinmp> that was my next step. hope it works. ... wait. its gone. CLI says segmentation fault.
[21:01] <AlanBell> ick
[21:02] <andresinmp> ok running it again.
[21:02] <jacobw> andresinmp: enable apport and report a bug
[21:02] <ali1234> i wish they'd fix that tree_model warning
[21:02] <ali1234> i like to run gedit from the terminal and it always spams that
[21:03] <gordonjcp> I wish they'd make a raw disk image, to write to a USB stick without dicking around with unetbootin
[21:03] <ali1234> gordonjcp: well you're in luck cos they alreadydid that like 6 months ago
[21:03] <andresinmp> enable aport is something I run in comand line? seems to be burning now.
[21:03] <jacobw> +1 gordonjcp
[21:03] <gordonjcp> ali1234: really?
[21:03] <gordonjcp> it's not massively obvious on the download pages
[21:03] <ali1234> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-11-10-Will-Be-Distributed-As-Hybrid-CD-USB-images-206765.shtml
[21:04] <jacobw> `sudo service apport start force_start=1`
[21:04] <gordonjcp> sweet
[21:04] <jacobw> reproduce the crash and use the diaglogue to report the bug
[21:05] <andresinmp> thanks jacobw
[21:06] <andresinmp> its burning but giving me the (brasero:6289): Gtk-CRITICAL **: gtk_tree_model_get_iter_first: assertion `GTK_IS_TREE_MODEL (tree_model)' failed
[21:06] <jacobw> andresinmp: GTK warning usually aren't fatal
[21:06] <andresinmp> ok, good to know.
[21:08] <andresinmp> when it says eject manualy it means to actually press the button i guess? brasero now could not eject it.
[21:08] <ali1234> that was suspiciously fast
[21:08] <andresinmp> 16x
[21:08] <ali1234> even so, closing the session normally takes like 3 minutes
[21:09] <andresinmp> give me a cute bing! notification saying it was succesfully burnt.
[21:09] <andresinmp> cute chime.
[21:09] <ali1234> i can't remember the last time i burnt a cd
[21:10] <andresinmp> OK, seems it burnt fine, lubuntu beta here I go.
[21:11] <jacobw> you may want to md5sum
[21:11] <jacobw> !md5sum
[21:12] <andresinmp> got that one just in time before I afk
[21:16] <andresinmp> ok... did not find it in the hash page. it is an lubuntu alfa would that be an exception?
[21:16] <gordonjcp> is there a way to unmount USB disks in Ubuntu, without it thinking that the disk is completely disconnected?
[21:17] <andresinmp> lubuntu beta not listed.
[21:18] <AlanBell> andresinmp: where did you get the iso from exactly? is it the daily image or something?
[21:19] <andresinmp> from the email we got today on getting old pcs...
[21:19] <andresinmp> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/TechnicalOverview/Beta1#Download_the_Beta_1
[21:20] <AlanBell> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/releases/precise/beta-1/MD5SUMS
[21:21] <andresinmp> match!
[21:21] <andresinmp> thanks!
[21:26] <virunga> Hi, i'd like to share files in my lan network but Personal File Sharing Preferences says "This feature cannot be enabled because the required packages are not installed on your system". I already installed samba, what dependencies does it need? Help please :)
[21:30] <andresinmp> jacobw so I reproduced it. how do I get to report it?
[21:31] <andresinmp> i get no dialog
[21:31] <gordonjcp> is there any documentation anywhere on what happens *in Ubuntu specifically* when you unmount something/
[21:31] <gordonjcp> because it's pretty much broken
[21:31] <jacobw> andresinmp: have you rebooted since running the command to start apport?
[21:33] <virunga> gordonjcp, i think what happen is the same in debian, you could search in that ambient
[21:33] <gordonjcp> virunga: no, it's not the same
[21:34] <gordonjcp> virunga: in Ubuntu *specifically*, when I unmount the drive it disappears from the available drives completely, almost as though the USB port has been shut down
[21:34]  * jacobw has also noticed this
[21:34] <gordonjcp> actually, it's weirder than that since the major device (in this case /dev/sdb) is still hanging around but with no visible partitions
[21:34] <gordonjcp> and with an apparent size of 0 blocks
[21:35] <gordonjcp> it's *extremely* annoying
[21:35] <gordonjcp> it's just about the one thing stopping me from using Ubuntu exclusively
[21:35] <virunga> gordonjcp,uh
[21:36] <AlanBell> I think this is aggressive power management on USB ports still
[21:37] <gordonjcp> pfff
[21:37] <gordonjcp> totally pointless on a Pentium 4 machine!
[21:37]  * AlanBell is tempted to rearrange those words into a different order
[21:38] <AlanBell> so I know power management can shut down a USB port
[21:38] <andresinmp> jacobw no i have not. is it compulery?
[21:38] <andresinmp> *compulsery? heck mandatory?
[21:39] <andresinmp> do not know word.
[21:39] <jacobw> andresinmp: the command manually starts apport, if you'd rebooted apport would not have started again after the reboot
[21:40] <andresinmp> sorry did not get that.
[21:41] <andresinmp> meanwhile in the lubuntu 12.04 live cd https://twitter.com/#!/Andresinmp/status/176421071677964289/photo/1
[21:41] <virunga> English there's noal gallager on absolute radio, do you like it?
[21:41] <virunga> *he
[21:41] <AlanBell> andresinmp: not compulsory at all, it just helps you report bugs
[21:41] <virunga> i'm sorry, i was wrong...
[21:42] <AlanBell> andresinmp: that picture doesn't look so good!
[21:42] <andresinmp> yes yes. Alanbell.
[21:42] <jacobw> i was of the opinion that apport would detect the crash and launch the report dialogue
[21:42] <andresinmp> i am trying to report. i reproduced the bug.
[21:43] <andresinmp> no report dialogue.
[21:43] <andresinmp>  will try again.
[21:43] <AlanBell> you can still do ubuntu-bug <packagename> and it should do the same sort of stuff
[21:44] <jacobw> ah, mono
[21:46] <jacobw> no, brasero is not a mono app
[21:47] <andresinmp> alanbell thing sent me to launchpad. I will copy and paste stuff there...
[21:47] <jacobw> :)
[21:47] <AlanBell> yup, that is where it should send you :)
[21:48] <Azelphur> My friends generating a rather interesting graphy thing live in #ubuntu, http://82.31.244.205/pyspy/ o.O
[21:48]  * AlanBell installs openbve to get some screenshots of mono
[21:48] <AlanBell> Azelphur: yeah, popey was running that for a bit
[21:48]  * jacobw remember popey using pyspy
[21:48] <Azelphur> hehe
[21:49] <andresinmp> okay reported.
[21:50] <asherkin> you're probably thinking of piespy, I wrote that from scratch based off of it's research :P fairly sure no one's done dynamic rendering with it before
[21:52] <jacobw> I seem to remembers popey's instance being dynamic
[21:52] <andresinmp> now lubuntu : sooo i guess I need to do more bug reporting https://twitter.com/#!/Andresinmp/status/176424675147128833/photo/1
[21:53] <AlanBell> jacobw: no, it wasn't dynamic, but was time based, so it would do a rendering over time from the logs I think
[21:53] <jacobw> I see :)
[21:53] <gordonjcp> is there possibly a more technical channel I can ask about my USB problems in?
[21:54] <jacobw> gordonjcp: possibly #ubuntu-server?
[21:54] <gordonjcp> jacobw: hm, it's more of a desktop issue, but it could be worth a shot
[21:54] <andresinmp> Iĺl go to lubuntu chanel see you guys thank you for your help
[21:54] <jacobw> they'll probably be interested in power management
[21:55] <gordonjcp> I don't think it is power management
[21:55] <gordonjcp> after the card is ejected, the bus is still powered
[21:55] <AlanBell> asherkin: so that is new stuff you wrote?
[21:56] <AlanBell> is it open source?
[21:56] <jacobw> it sounds if the major device file is being trunc'd
[21:56] <asherkin> AlanBell: yeah, one of the issues I ran into was that storing the old png images was massively space consuming (it rendered one every time the graph changed, 3 months of a relatively quiet channel took over 3 GB), all the data for that is saved as JSON, hopefully it'll be easier to store (yay text compression) and do some nice visulizations over time
[21:57] <asherkin> it will be, it's not really "ready" to be used yet
[21:57] <AlanBell> so it is HTML5 and lots of javascript in the browser?
[21:57] <asherkin> I'm sure Azelphur can drop a link in when it is, I'm not normally active on freenode :P
[21:58] <Azelphur> indeed :)
[21:58] <asherkin> JS and SVG, uses http://mbostock.github.com/d3/
[21:58] <Azelphur> asherkin: all the cool people are on freenode
[21:58] <popey> gordonjcp: #ubuntu-kernel during UK daytime
[21:58] <AlanBell> it does seem rather CPU hungry asherkin
[21:59] <gordonjcp> popey: oh well
[21:59] <gordonjcp> popey: that's not going to be possible for me any time soon
[21:59] <gordonjcp> Arch Linux it is, then
[21:59] <popey> well, you can try outside work hours
[21:59] <popey> i was just setting expectations
[21:59] <asherkin> thats polling every 5 seconds and recalculating constantly, and with no caching, I pretty much disabled all the optimization for testing
[21:59] <ali1234> those guys don't talk at any time
[22:00] <popey> they do if you ask them questions
[22:00] <gordonjcp> it's annoying because I've actually got to quite like Unity, but it's not packaged in any workable way for Arch
[22:00] <jacobw> things are packaged in a workable for arch? :|
[22:00] <popey> i wonder if that will change once 12.04 goes out
[22:01] <popey> given there will be a relatively stable codebase to port
[22:01] <Azelphur> I have 12.04 running on my phone :3
[22:01] <AlanBell> arch does have a package manager, I understand it is simple and effective, but not sophisticated
[22:02] <jacobw> yes, i was aluding to 'not sophisticated' :)
[22:03] <AlanBell> I can see merit in a simple package manager, I have stuff I would like to package for Ubuntu but it is so hard
[22:06] <ali1234> my question must have been too hard for them
[22:08] <mattt> i like arch packaging
[22:08] <mattt> i've never gotten my head around debian packaging
[22:08] <gordonjcp> mattt: yeah
[22:08] <gordonjcp> you have to be some sort of insane genius to understand the arcane closed world of Debian packaging
[22:09] <jacobw> closed is the operative word
[22:09] <mattt> gordonjcp: phew, thought it was just me
[22:09] <gordonjcp> I tried to package lysdr for Ubuntu
[22:09] <gordonjcp> not a chance
[22:10] <mattt> i don't even know where to start w/ debian packaging
[22:10] <mattt> even rpm seems 100x more straight-forward :D
[22:10] <AlanBell> there are loads of places to start
[22:10] <mattt> too many
[22:10] <gordonjcp> debian packaging is basically a closed proprietary system
[22:10] <mattt> that's maybe the problem
[22:10] <mattt> all sorts of tools and ways of packaging debian packages
[22:10] <jacobw> i would disagree
[22:10] <gordonjcp> there's no documentation and no way to get started with it unless you're one of the Debian elite inner circle
[22:10] <AlanBell> you kind of need to know what all the deprecated packaging methods are to know what you are supposed to use
[22:11] <jacobw> it's just that there's much outdated documentation floating around
[22:11] <ali1234> nah, rpm is no better in that respect
[22:11] <jacobw> er, what AlanBell said :)
[22:11] <ali1234> rpm is layers within layers
[22:11] <ali1234> instead of debian/control you have a .spec file
[22:11] <ali1234> except you're not supposed to write that yourself, you are supposed to generate it from a .yaml
[22:12] <ali1234> but wait, you're not supposed to write the .yaml yourself either
[22:12] <ali1234> there's a tool that makes that
[22:12] <mattt> yaml?
[22:12] <ali1234> i can't remember what file it takes as input
[22:12] <mattt> wow, i guess i haven't played w/ RPM for ages :)
[22:12] <gordonjcp> in Arch, you get a sample PKGBUILD file, fill in the blanks, and type "makepkg"
[22:12] <ali1234> all the files are virtually identical
[22:12] <ali1234> in the end they all contain the lines "configure; make; make install"
[22:12] <gordonjcp> if you're being a total smartarse you do it in a chroot to ensure your deps are fulfilled correctly
[22:13] <ali1234> plus extra hackery to make it work
[22:14] <ali1234> yes, well, rpm and debian are identical
[22:14] <mattt> perhaps
[22:14] <ali1234> you get a blank file. you fill in the blanks
[22:14] <mattt> but i can at least see the logic in making an RPM package, or at least was able to prior to yaml
[22:14] <ali1234> you run rpmbuild or dkpg-buildpackage
[22:14] <ali1234> simple right?
[22:15] <jpds> gordonjcp: Actually, it's not a closed system.
[22:15] <mattt> we should get a uk debian/ubuntu packager to go through the steps with us in person some time :)
[22:15] <mattt> i can provide the location
[22:16] <ali1234> yeah i've seen enough packaging demos to know that is a waste of time
[22:16] <ali1234> they always demonstrate using "hello world"
[22:16] <ali1234> anyone can package that
[22:16] <AlanBell> I can't
[22:16] <mattt> hahaha
[22:17] <AlanBell> I have a hello world I want to package, it is here http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/quicklists.py
[22:17] <jpds> ali1234: And it's the same under-lying principles for any other package.
[22:17] <AlanBell> one python file that should run when you start a unity session
[22:17] <mattt> gosh, packing python script is probably even more complicated
[22:18] <ali1234> AlanBell: that's already much more complicated than packaging hello world
[22:18] <AlanBell> I haven't got the faintest idea how to package that, apart from using quickly, which brings in all kinds of other stuff
[22:18] <ali1234> you say it should "run when unity session"
[22:18] <ali1234> how does that work? that's not a packaging issue
[22:18] <ali1234> all the package manager can do is dump the file somewhere of your choosing, and maybe edit a file
[22:19] <AlanBell> it should probably put it in startup applications or something
[22:19] <ali1234> well packages can't do that directly
[22:20] <ali1234> that is, they can't edit per-user configuration, at least not easily
[22:20] <ali1234> so you need to find out how to add something to the default startup applications
[22:20] <ali1234> note - that has nothing to do with packaging
[22:20] <AlanBell> dropbox manages it
[22:20] <jpds> AlanBell: apt-get source dropbox; look at the postinst file.
[22:21] <gordonjcp> jpds: it's *effectively* a closed system, since it is entirely undocumented
[22:21] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: it is overdocumented
[22:21] <gordonjcp> jpds: or rather, extremely badly documented which is if anything slightly worse
[22:21] <jpds> gordonjcp: Er, it is; you probably just don't want to read all the comprehensive docs.
[22:22] <gordonjcp> it's also hideously overdesigned
[22:22] <AlanBell> the debian packaging manual is huge
[22:24] <jacobw> the debian project is huge :|
[22:24] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/869042/ one dropbox postinst script
[22:25] <Laney> for I in /home/*/.dropbox-dist; do
[22:25] <Laney> no
[22:25] <AlanBell> that doesn't look friendly
[22:25] <ali1234> EW
[22:25] <ali1234> ok, blueman adds itself to the list of startup apps when you install it, please use that as an example instead :)
[22:26] <ali1234> but note that all it does in postinst is reload dbus
[22:26] <Laney> /etc/xdg/autostart
[22:26] <ali1234> so it must be possible to do it by dropping the right file in the right place
[22:27] <AlanBell> Laney: ok, so the package should put a desktop file in there then?
[22:27] <jpds> gordonjcp: Or rather it's the result of 19 years of engineering.
[22:28] <ali1234> AlanBell: looks about right
[22:28] <AlanBell> and it could put a different .desktop file in /usr/share/applications presumably
[22:29] <AlanBell> there is actually a lot less scary stuff in the dropbox .deb file than I expected, just 4 files in the /debian directory
[22:31] <Laney> right, and it's not a packaging issue, rather managed by a cross-desktop (fdo) draft specification
[22:31] <AlanBell> so I make a filestructure in a folder with everything where I want it to go, make a /debian folder with those files in it (mostly empty) and zip it up and name it .deb
[22:31] <jpds> As I said, the same under-lying principles; it's very easy.
[22:32] <ali1234> AlanBell: no, not at all
[22:33] <ali1234> well, the first part, sort of
[22:34] <AlanBell> so do I have to figure out if I want to use debhelper dh cdbs dh_make  or something else?
[22:34] <ali1234> you don't want to use any of that stuff
[22:34] <Laney> you should go to #ubuntu-motu or #ubuntu-packaging fyi
[22:34] <Laney> the latter for PPA stuff
[22:35] <jpds> AlanBell: That's up to personal choice.
[22:35]  * popey hugs debuild
[22:35] <AlanBell> oh, I missed one
[22:36] <AlanBell> pbuilder too probably
[22:36] <Laney> some of those are tools for different tasks :-)
[22:36] <ali1234> for a package that doesn't need to build anything, and which you are both maintainer and developer, you won't need any of that
[22:37] <AlanBell> so I just write the control file in gedit directly?
[22:40] <ali1234> sure. use a template
[22:43] <ali1234> http://www.nerdliness.com/article/2007/08/27/creating-simple-ubuntu-debian-packages
[22:44] <ali1234> that should be enough for getting 2 files into the fs
[22:45] <AlanBell> giving it a go
[22:47] <ali1234> now the problem with this method is you won't get a source package
[22:47] <AlanBell> so that means no PPA
[22:47] <ali1234> perhaps
[22:48] <Laney> more importantly it means you get the wrong mental model of packaging
[22:50] <Laney> nn
[22:50] <AlanBell> so source packages are an orig.tar.bz2, plus a .dsc plus a debian.tar.gz
[22:51] <AlanBell> nn Laney
[22:59] <ali1234> AlanBell: i think the point is that your source should be "installable"
[22:59] <ali1234> for a python script that generally means making a setup.py
[23:01] <ali1234> http://savetheions.com/2010/01/20/packaging-python-applicationsmodules-for-debian/
[23:08] <AlanBell> well my hacked together binary package doesn't work, I will try that guide sometime over the next few days
[23:17] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: that's because it's a Debian "package"
[23:17] <gordonjcp> they never entirely work, unless they're specially blessed by the packaging Inner Circle
[23:18] <AlanBell> then again . . .
[23:18] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Gareth France] Tottenham Court Road  3rd March 2012 - http://cliftonts.co.uk/cubuntu/?p=125
[23:18] <AlanBell> I think I just need a dependency on python-wnck
[23:19] <popey> hmm, my mums computer is on, but i suspect it has a different IP so the router port forwarding isnt working so I cant ssh to it
[23:19] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: the package worked fundamentally
[23:20] <AlanBell> popey: can she ssh to you?
[23:20] <popey> she is in bed and has left it on
[23:20] <popey> I know it's up, prey is checking in with my server
[23:21] <popey> ah, i see
[23:21] <popey> i just used landscape to remotely run ifconfig on it
[23:21] <popey> the ethernet cable looks like it's fallen out
[23:21] <popey> it has a wifi address but not a wired address, which is the one I port forwarded to
[23:22]  * popey ponders sending wget the trublr deb
[23:25] <jpds> gordonjcp: So, missing dependency == inner circle, I see.
[23:25] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unity-window-quicklists.deb
[23:26] <AlanBell> never install random deb files etc etc
[23:26] <AlanBell> but I think that kind of works, it should probably start quicklists.py in the postinst, at the moment you have to log out and back in to get it to start
[23:27] <gordonjcp> jpds: if it wasn't a closed proprietary system, it would be easier for normal developers to create Debian packages
[23:27] <AlanBell> it isn't closed or proprietary
[23:27] <AlanBell> it is just difficult
[23:28] <popey> i have made packages in the past
[23:28] <gordonjcp> it's not meaningfully documented, and it's only used by Debianish distros
[23:29] <popey> not very good ones mind ☺
[23:29] <gordonjcp> and if you want to use it, you have to deal with the frankly rather hostile Debian "community"
[23:30] <jpds> gordonjcp: So you're discounting the Ubuntu community?
[23:31] <gordonjcp> jpds: apart from this channel, yes
[23:31] <gordonjcp> jpds: this is about the only outpost of sanity in the #ubuntu channels
[23:32] <jpds> gordonjcp: #ubuntu-motu maybe?
[23:32] <popey> I've found the -motu people very helpful when I've needed to package stuff
[23:32] <AlanBell> right, well that kind of works. I am done for now, might learn how to do it properly next week some time.
[23:46] <ali1234> i thinkt he problem isn't that packaging is hard, it's that development got a lot easier
[23:46] <ali1234> while packaging is still the same as it was 10 years ago
[23:47] <ali1234> if you develop your software using autotools, packaging is easy
[23:48] <ali1234> unfortunately only about 3 people understand how to use autotools