[04:53] <bazhang> srp_, hi
[06:54] <pangolin> !crosspost > computer_
[07:34] <Tm_T> ubottu: ping
[07:34] <Tm_T> ...ubottu doesn't answer to me in PM
[07:40] <Unit193> Did you still use !?
[07:41] <Tm_T> Unit193: yes and no, and no it shouldn't matter
[07:41] <Tm_T> or maybe I'm just too old to figure out what am I doing in overall (;
[09:59] <Tm_T> srp_: hi, how can we help you today?
[09:59] <AlanBell> morning srp_
[10:07] <ikonia> he knows what he's doing
[10:08] <ikonia> if he doesn't speak the next time he joins I'm going to change it from a ban to a ban forward
[10:08] <ikonia> oops
[10:08] <ikonia> other way around
[11:17] <Silverlion> hi srp_ how could we help you?
[11:18] <topyli> beyond help, i'm afraid
[11:18] <ikonia> I'll just change it to a straight ban
[13:13] <Pici> These aren't the lists you're looking for.
[13:16] <ikonia> ha
 shaneo, the external injection is behind c++ where as C sharp is usually sharper than a plus sign. Obviously
[15:05] <bazhang> some kind of bot?
[15:06] <ikonia> just an idiot
[15:14] <bazhang> ssh through the terminal? is that not redundant?
[15:15] <ikonia> it's the only way to use ssh....through a terminal
[15:15] <bazhang> no idea what freewayzifi is talking about then
[15:15] <ikonia> no, I don't think he does at this moment
[15:16] <Pici> Well, theres scp, and sftp, and sshfs, which don't necessarily need the terminal.
[15:16] <bazhang> seems to be just talking nonsense
[15:16] <ikonia> Pici: I guess it depends on the context, "putty" isn't a terminal, but it does run within a terminal environment
[15:16] <Pici> aye
[15:57] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[15:57] <bazhang> * RaTTuS|BIG Gives e-bree to ElitestFX
[15:57] <bazhang> was that a response to !beer ?
[15:58] <Myrtti> yeah
[15:58] <Myrtti> I noticed it yesterday
[16:29] <bazhang> is it #ubuntu-411 today ?
[16:30] <pangolin> seems like it
[16:30] <bazhang> centos/asterisk   alabama tz, what next
[16:34] <pangolin> seriously...system admins who can't figure out what city to use for tz :/
[16:35] <bazhang> oy vey
[17:07] <oCean> ppa mess :(
[17:07] <ikonia> you could see that was coming
[17:07] <ikonia> "I don't know what I'm doing how do I add a PPA I don't know if I want"
[17:07] <ikonia> someone helped him add it, he installed stuff
[17:08] <ikonia> "how do I remove a PPA"
[17:08] <ikonia> I could see it coming a mile off
[17:08] <ikonia> we need to do something better with PPA's not the technology but how we actually provide support in #ubuntu
[17:09]  * Myrtti goes to pull cables from freenode servers
[17:09] <Myrtti> shutting down network in 3... 2...
[17:09] <popey> why not tell him how to remove the ppa?
[17:09] <ikonia> that works
[17:09] <oCean> am i still connected?
[17:09] <ikonia> popey: he's being told
[17:09] <Tm_T> oCean: no you're not
[17:09] <ikonia> however if it's already downloaded stuff.....it may be a mess again to clear up
[17:09] <ikonia> depending on what's been downloaded
[17:09] <Tm_T> ikonia: indeed
[17:10] <popey> not really
[17:10] <popey> ppa-purge works very well
[17:10] <popey> reverting back to the previous state
[17:10] <ikonia> sorry, I don't believe it does
[17:10] <ikonia> I'm sure it does in some situations
[17:10] <popey> i believe it does because I use it every day

[17:10] <ikonia> a well maintained repo
[17:10] <ikonia> I watch people use it and it doesn't work, I've tried it as a test with some crappy repos and it's failed
[17:11] <ikonia> popey: I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to look at a way we can perhaps help someone/people in general a little better
[17:11] <Tm_T> popey: hmmm, just the other day a guy had his system in a bad state after doing ppa-purge (:
[17:11] <Tm_T> I wonder what he had done with it to get it like that though
[17:11] <ikonia> try to steer people from pushing the PPA as a first choice, or try to teach people how to evaluate the risks of the PPA they are offering to people
[17:11] <ikonia> that sort of thing
[17:11] <Tm_T> ikonia: sounds good
[17:11] <ikonia> I just don't know how to go about it
[17:12] <ikonia> it's pie in the sky talk at this moment
[17:13] <oCean> Well, we've tried to word it in the SupportersGuide (Do recommend software sources in a logical order) but that part still needs better phrasing I think
[17:13] <ikonia> the supporters guide is pretty soild in my view
[17:13] <ikonia> I just can't think of a method to get people to evalute the real need of the user and if a PPA is the best solution, and if it is is that PPA a "good" one
[17:40] <ikonia> can someone please translate !list into good Italian, I've never seen a non-italian ask for it
[17:41] <Pici> LjL would be the best person for that.
[17:42] <oCean> in #debian the answer is "vattene via"
[17:42] <pangolin> I don't think it is a good idea to single out a specific language
[17:42] <pangolin> Would send the wrong message IMO
[17:42] <pangolin> I believe LjL would agree
[17:43] <ikonia> this is it ???
[17:43] <ikonia> it's mental
[17:43] <ikonia> it's ONLY italians who do this
[17:43] <ikonia> yet we can't put it into italian because it's singling people otu
[17:43] <ikonia> it is that nationality that's doing it though ???
[17:43] <ikonia> I have never seen anyone from a non .it ip use !list
[17:44] <pangolin> I don't feel that translating it to Italian will help diminish the amount of !list the channel gets
[17:44] <ikonia> no, but it may make it clear that it's not a warez channel
[17:44] <pangolin> and it sends the message that Ubuntu thinks all Italians are warez hunters.
[17:45] <ikonia> no problem, lets just ignore the reality of who's doing it
[17:45] <pangolin> not ignoring it but why single them out.
[17:45] <ikonia> why not send testicular cancer information to women too....lets not single out the men
[17:45] <pangolin> it won't stop them.
[17:45] <ikonia> no, but it may get the message across, first time clearly that it's not a warez channel
[17:45] <popey> i dont think it would help at all
[17:45] <pangolin> to that single user maybe
[17:46] <ikonia> fine, leave it then
[17:46] <popey> the poeple who come in arrive, do !list and leave
[17:46] <popey> they dont come back, they don't run ubuntu
[17:46] <ikonia> or do it 10 times and end up getting kicked
[17:46] <popey> nobody ever learns from it
[17:46] <ikonia> lets remove the list factoid then
[17:46] <ikonia> it's a large one that floods
[17:46] <pangolin> black or white.
[17:47] <ikonia> not really a suggestion
[17:47] <ikonia> if the !list factoid doesn't provide much use, lets get rid of it
[17:47] <ikonia> if you think it does, leave it alone
[17:47] <pangolin> the factoid is useful but not for stopping the problem
[17:47] <ikonia> in what way is it useful ?
[17:47] <ikonia> !list
[17:47] <ikonia> (let me re-read it)
[17:48] <pangolin> it tells the user that we don't do warez.
[17:48] <pangolin> but it can't tell stop the problem because not every single person looking for warez is there to read it.
[17:48] <ikonia> so telling them clearly in their native language is not of value
[17:48] <popey> we get people doing !list on channels on lots of networks, they just go for which ever channel has most people in it
 i love ubuntu... but i really wish it were compatible with the internet
[17:49] <ikonia> I agree, I don't think you can "stop it"
[17:49] <ikonia> I was just suggesting changing it to italian as it is always italian ip's / speakers doing it
[17:49] <ikonia> get the message across clear
[17:49] <ikonia> if there is no value in it, leave it alone
[17:50] <pangolin> the message is clear, even if they can't read it in English. the trigger gives them a output that is not expected and they get the picture, some are a little slower at getting "it"
[17:50] <Tm_T> ikonia: I'm unsure how it is not getting the message actoss clear now
[17:50] <ikonia> Tm_T: then leave it
[17:51] <ikonia> I didn't think it got the message across as you often see people just doing !list sleep 10 !list, sleep 10
[17:51] <ikonia> but if you're happy it's clear, just leave it be
[17:51] <bazhang> do we need a factoid for the supportersguide?
[17:52] <Tm_T> ikonia: if we remove the factoid, people ask "what is the command to get the file list" (yes, seen it happening before we had this factoid)
[17:52] <ikonia> Tm_T: I'm sure
[17:52] <Tm_T> ikonia: but what I do think, the factoid is not only for those who do call !list, but also others who see it, so they know what it's about and don't try fishing it
[17:52] <oCean> bazhang: I think so
[17:53] <ikonia> great, so leave it
[17:54] <Tm_T> ikonia: I do believe we can improve it yet (:
[17:55] <ikonia> if it's fine, leave it, I only said get rid of it, because it was said no-one reads it
[17:55] <ikonia> I didn't see the point of having it hit a long worded factoid if no-one read it
[17:55] <Tm_T> heh, I think it's bit too lenghty
[17:55] <bazhang> oCean, okay
[17:55] <oCean> bazhang: try to reason with him in pm
[17:56] <oCean> I will*
[17:56] <ikonia> he's been spoken to a few times before
[17:56] <ikonia> hence why I'm tried of it
[17:56] <bazhang> so when  people are suggesting some 3rd party stuff, we can !guide
[17:57] <bazhang> oCean, ah whoops I've got a PM open with him as well
[17:57] <ikonia> ughghh
[17:57] <Tm_T> bazhang: no, that would be abusing supportguidelines if you ask me
[17:57] <ikonia> I don't think we should hit people with !read a guide if they suggest 3rd party stuff
[17:57] <Tm_T> ^
[17:57] <ikonia> it's just going to be !guide !guide !guide !guide
[17:57] <bazhang> then in the topic?
[17:57] <Pici> !guide is the server guide.
[17:57] <LjL> ikonia, pangolin, Pici: i've talked to italian ops about this before, they wouldn't be pleased with it being in italian, just as they're not pleased with people redirecting !list'ers to -it (which is what prompted me to talk to them about it). and i agree with them. "No warez" is perfectly understandable for an italian anyway.
[17:57] <Pici> yes, I just said that ubottu.
[17:58] <pangolin> in the topic and we can actively link it to the helpers we know will benefit from it
[17:58] <Tm_T> LjL: I agree
[17:59] <ikonia> LjL: fair enough (never seen anyone push them to -it before)
[20:21] <oCean> I think !list should say "Please tell us why you thought this channel has downloads, and receive a FREE download @ ubuntu.com!"
[20:22] <LjL> sometimes i want to message them and ask, but then i'm scared they'll just go all ASL
[20:22] <knome> LjL, ask what? a/s/l ? :P
[20:22] <oCean> I don't even expect an answer at all
[20:23] <LjL> knome: ask why they think the channel features downloading warez
[21:48] <mneptok>  /join #elpaso
[21:48] <mneptok> oops, wanted #juarez
[21:55] <trevor69420> can i please be -q in ubuntu
[21:55] <trevor69420> #ubuntu*
[22:00] <mneptok> @login
[22:00] <mneptok> trevor69420: stand by, please.
[22:01] <trevor69420> standing by
[22:03] <mneptok> trevor69420: twice in as many days you have been removed from #ubuntu for being offtopic.
[22:03] <trevor69420> really? today was the first time that i am aware of
[22:04] <trevor69420> unless i am missing something
[22:04] <mneptok> trevor69420: yesterday you were kicked from the channel by ikonia for discussing a troll that said they would hack people using their Windows computer.
[22:04] <mneptok> troll. do not respond.
[22:05] <trevor69420> oh i guess i remember that...
[22:05] <mneptok> !guidelines
[22:05] <trevor69420> then i wrote +b to have him banned
[22:05] <mneptok> read those. takes 3m or so if English is your first language.
[22:06] <trevor69420> i'm familiar with the guidelines i've been in ubuntu for nearly a little over 5 years (granted under a few nicks)
[22:06] <trevor69420> but i wil l refresh myself
[22:06] <mneptok> trevor69420: you know that door down the hall to #ubuntu-offtopic i'm sure.
[22:07] <mneptok> trevor69420: give or receieve support is the only time to focus IRC on #ubuntu. put something else on auto-join to socialize. WFM.
[22:08] <mneptok> you can also "receive" support. hopefully from a typist.
[22:08] <trevor69420> yes i do..... and always in there... i guess my main concern is that the reason why i was kicked this time was they said i was off topic when someone else replied the exact same thing to someone's question and he didnt get warned or kicked or anything, but whatever i guess the ops can pick and choose
[22:09] <trevor69420> well not the exact same thing but along the lines
[22:09]  * mneptok summons bazhang 
[22:09] <pangolin> the reason for your kick was because you had already been warned earlier.
[22:09] <trevor69420> and i was in the middle of typing the answer to his question when i was removed
[22:10] <mneptok> trevor69420: try the same approach in a 3-car drag race that's pursued by a single police officer.
[22:11] <mneptok> trevor69420: "they did it, too!" is not the place you want to go in that situation. or this.
[22:12] <trevor69420> ok from now on i will just remain a robot and just spit out answers to problems instead of lightening the  mood my fault to think that would be acceptable
[22:13] <trevor69420> drag racing isnt a good analogy since drag racing is dangerous but i see your point you want to keep everything strictly business
[22:13] <mneptok> trevor69420: i think the bigger problem you had was a distinct lack of contrition. and i don;t think that problem has been resolved.
[22:14] <pangolin> trevor69420: imagine if 400 people are all trying to lighten the mood, how do you think that would affect the support being given/received in the channel
[22:18] <trevor69420> nvm... i'll get in another way i got 7 Class A IP ranges to work with so it doesnt really matter but i'm not gonna be remorseful over saying what i said considering it seemed to be acceptable for other users to say it, and i feel i do offer alot of support to the channel and that should count towards something...  you guys cna pick and choose who you want to enforce with your rules all you want...
[22:18] <trevor69420> good day
[22:19] <mneptok> ban evasion is against Freenode policy.
[22:19] <trevor69420> ok...
[22:19] <mneptok> The More You Know ....
[22:19] <trevor69420> good luck finding me
[22:19]  * mneptok is not Freenode staff
[22:20] <mneptok> so good luck maintaining my interest.
[22:20] <pangolin> trevor69420: a moment
[22:20] <pangolin> trevor69420: We are not asking you to apologize. just want you to agree to follow the channel guidelines to help keep the channel helpful.
[22:21] <pangolin> If you are willing to agree to that I am willing to let you back in #ubuntu
[22:27] <pangolin> I guess not.
[22:29] <trevor69420> i'll agree if you guys agree to equally enforce the rules to all people... but when there are a number of people all talking off topic and i make one remark that is, respectifully,  in my opinion a gray area (seeing as it was in response to a ubuntu question, whereas others where answering questions that had nothing to do with ubuntu ehem... android amongst a debian question or two, and they werent warned or anything).  I have no issues providing
[22:29] <trevor69420> support but if you want to micromanage the channel micomanage it for everyone equally...
[22:30] <ikonia> trevor69420: nah - it's not a I'll agree if you agree type of deal
[22:30] <ikonia> here are the rules - if you don't like them - don't use the channel
[22:30] <ikonia> tried of trying to negotiate with you
[22:30] <trevor69420> but it doesnt matter what you guys decide... i'll let you know when I see one that is off topic that doesnt get enforced and i'll message you
[22:31] <ikonia> trevor69420: you can ask someone your self
[22:31] <ikonia> "hi, any chance you can move the offtopic stuff to #ubuntu-offtopic"
[22:31] <ikonia> really easy
[22:34] <Jordan_U> trevor69420: We do try to enforce rules reasonably and equally, but we're not always watching the channel, we may miss things, and we may disagree with you (and sometimes among each other) about what warrants a kick/ban. (and not all actions by ops need to be kicks/bans, most times we start with a comment like you can make as ikonia gave an example of).
[22:34] <pangolin> trevor69420: it appears we disagree. I'm afraid the ban will remain.
[22:36] <trevor69420> ok...
[22:37] <pangolin> Please part the channel if there is nothing else.
[22:37] <pangolin> trevor69420: you are welcome to return and try to resolve this later.