[04:06] <jo-erlend> is anyone working on fixing developer.ubuntu.com? It's currently recommending software that we're no longer using. For instance, in 12.04, it will not be possible to use PyGTK with Quickly. So those pages and tutorials should be removed.
[04:06] <jo-erlend> it is better to have too little information than to provide wrong information.
[04:15] <ajmitch> jo-erlend: I'd say to file a bug against ubuntu-developer-portal, I think that's the right part for documentation
[04:15] <ajmitch> though there are some bugs on there that I thought would have been fixed awhile ago
[04:16] <jo-erlend> I don't really understand the difference between ubuntu-app-developer and developer.ubuntu.com.
[04:17] <ajmitch> from what I know, ubuntu-developer-portal is for the normal, visible parts of the site
[04:17] <ajmitch> developerportal is for bugs about app submission & review
[04:17] <jo-erlend> heh, that's coherent.
[04:17] <ajmitch> yeah I know :)
[04:18] <jo-erlend> stuff like this annoys me to no end.
[04:18] <ajmitch> and sorry, it's ubuntudeveloperportal, no dashes
[04:18] <ajmitch> it's developer-portal that has the - ;)
[04:18] <jo-erlend> it's much more difficult to learn how to find out how to learn than it is to actually learn.
[04:19] <ajmitch> right, made worse by links to outdated libraries or just broken links
[04:21] <jalcine> wait what?
[04:21] <jo-erlend> right. And a mix of completely different tools. On the first page, you read that you should use Quickly and PyGTK. Then on the next page, there are links to Qt Creator and MonoDevelop.
[04:21] <jalcine> learn how to find out how to learn than .... *brain pops*
[04:22] <jo-erlend> jalcine, right. By the time you've figured out what to read, you're so exhausted and confused that you're ready to give up. :)
[04:22] <jalcine> lol I was close.
[04:22] <jalcine> If you really want something, you'd find it.
[04:22] <ajmitch> you shouldn't have to struggle to find the right thing
[04:22] <jalcine> I was looking for introspection of Unity over D-Bus.
[04:22] <ajmitch> jalcine: oh that's easy ;)
[04:23] <jalcine> Couldn't find in XML so I fired up qdbusviewer, and just pulled it from there.
[04:23] <ajmitch> though I knew the right person to ask
[04:23] <jalcine> see? lol, I didn't ask first.
[04:23] <jalcine> I combed the net.
[04:23] <jalcine> and I can't view SSL sites on this network connection
[04:24] <jalcine> b/c my phone's tethering app blocks it.
[04:24] <jalcine> so I was stumped.
[04:24] <jalcine> and the worst part: I'm a Kubuntu User.
[04:24] <jo-erlend> «I want to try to create my first program using Quickly and PyGTK, that I read about on developer.ubuntu.com. Which of these should I use?  I'm a little confused by which of these tools are best for me. The site says: "C++ or QML, an innovative CSS & JavaScript-like language. With QT Creator, UI designers and developers can share code easily."»
[04:24] <ajmitch> jo-erlend: and then the link to quickly on the site is broken
[04:25] <jo-erlend> heh
[04:25] <jo-erlend> yes, and if you join #Quickly and ask, we'll tell you not to use PyGTK. :)
[04:25] <jalcine> Lol wow.
[04:26] <jalcine> So QML's the future? or Vala?
[04:26]  * ajmitch needs to find who to talk to in order to get some of these problems sorted
[04:26] <jo-erlend> Python with GTK3 is good.
[04:26] <ajmitch> when introspection works :)
[04:26] <jo-erlend> though, of course, there's lots of bugs with the Python/GTK combo, so you can't do everything. :)
[04:26] <jo-erlend> ajmitch, right. :)
[04:27]  * jalcine is tempted to say "Go Qt" :P
[04:27] <ajmitch> pyside
[04:28] <jo-erlend> why not WinForms?
[04:28] <jo-erlend> :)
[04:28] <ajmitch> because I don't like putting my face through a shredder
[04:28] <jo-erlend> :)
[04:28] <jo-erlend> but I wish we could do something properly for once.
[04:31] <jalcine> Lol
[04:31] <jalcine> Properly like select a unified development scheme?
[04:32] <jalcine> It's hard since there isn't a real "Ubuntu" API per se.
[04:32] <jalcine> I think something like that could lock in a certain development flow and then an accepted language (or at least most preferred)
[04:32] <jalcine> The closest to that is perhaps Unity and U1 integration.
[04:33] <jalcine> Throw in Zeitgeist if you want to get fancy.
[04:33] <jo-erlend> «Five Reasons to care about PyGtk: ... Multiple language support – if you would prefer to code in something other than Python, you can use PyGtk with C, Java and other languages.» <-- Yes, that's not confusing at all.
[04:34] <ajmitch> uh what?
[04:34] <jalcine> That's redundant, isn't it?
[04:34] <jalcine> C -> PyGtk  -> C ?
[04:34] <jalcine> You know what they need?
[04:34] <jo-erlend> jalcine, yes, properly, like selectinv a unified development scheme. At least get people to the point where they're able to know how to get information before you expose them to lots of different choices, toolkits, etc.
[04:34] <jalcine> Code examples.
[04:35] <jalcine> Like examples of the same "Ubuntu"-esque action done in C, Mono/C#, Python, C++, Java, etc.
[04:35] <jo-erlend> but this is just another forgotten chat. Until we get some bug tracker and ways to actually work on things, we're not getting anywhere.
[04:36] <jalcine> Where would we stick it?
[04:36] <jo-erlend> I seem to remember having an almost exact copy of this discussion when I was using Fedora Core. That's a few years ago now.
[04:36]  * jalcine would write a blog post about it.
[04:36] <jalcine> Maybe it's a Linux thing, then?
[04:36] <jo-erlend> it's a free software thing. It sucks. :)
[04:36] <ajmitch> jo-erlend: the templates for developer.ubuntu.com are in LP, but the rest of the content doesn't appear to be
[04:37] <ajmitch> documentation is hard
[04:37] <jalcine> Really hard :$
[04:37] <jo-erlend> yes, and it's very hard when there's no documentation to improve.
[04:37] <jalcine> This sounds like a weekend hack-up.
[04:38] <jalcine> I think I could smack together something.
[04:38] <jo-erlend> hehe
[04:38] <jalcine> Just need a Ubuntu-esque page template.
[04:38] <jo-erlend> that's the big problem.
[04:38] <ajmitch> jalcine: bzr branch lp:ubuntudeveloperportal
[04:38] <jo-erlend> the world is full of "weekend hackups".
[04:38] <jalcine> hehe
[04:38] <ajmitch> jo-erlend: you don't want another place which has 80% of what you need? :)
[04:39] <jo-erlend> right
[04:39] <jo-erlend> "Looks good, but it doesn't work" :)
[04:40] <jo-erlend> actually.. It's not a problem if something is missing. It's a bigger problem when there are unrelated stuff mixed in, such as the Qt Creator and MonoDevelop in the Python/Quickly context.
[04:40] <jalcine> Indeed.
[04:40] <jalcine> and isn't Mono like phased out of support? :$
[04:40] <jo-erlend> I have no idea.
[04:41] <ajmitch> jo-erlend: you think the alternatives are too prominent?
[04:41] <jalcine> After that takeover with Attachmate, I think Ximerian has only focused on mobile development.
[04:41] <jalcine> MonoDroid and what no.
[04:41] <jalcine> *not
[04:41] <ajmitch> jalcine: mono itself it still going strong
[04:42]  * jalcine looks for Banshee as the default media player app :P
[04:42] <jo-erlend> hehe... Ah! I found "Get help" on developer.u-c. It leads to this page: http://developer.ubuntu.com/community/
[04:42] <jalcine> I'd contribute to Mono if I had the know-how.
[04:42] <ajmitch> canonical's interest in mono-based apps is another story :P
[04:42] <jalcine> Lol, of course.
[04:43] <jo-erlend> "I'm stuck. Please help! What do I do?" Response? "Submit a tutorial" :)
[04:43] <ajmitch> jo-erlend: heh
[04:43] <jalcine> It'd make bug reporting a LOT affective though, with JIT.
[04:43] <ajmitch> or contribute by becoming a member of the ARB? that's not really an option for many
[04:44] <jalcine> it's one or the other.
[04:45] <jalcine> Hmm. I can't remember, U1 allows syncing of app configurations?
[04:45] <jalcine> Or is that CouchDB?
[04:45] <jo-erlend> http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/ <-- heh, they even forgot to color the logo! :)
[04:46] <jo-erlend> jalcine, CouchDB is not supported anymore.
[04:46] <jalcine> http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/tools/revision-control/ <-- what happened to Git or SVN?
[04:46] <jalcine> I mean, yeah, Bazaar's the gem, but the other ones should be mentioned..
[04:47] <jo-erlend> no, not at all!
[04:47] <jo-erlend> at least, not in the main pages.
[04:47] <jalcine> Well, the logo's probably not colored in to emphasize the blue-print nature of it?
[04:48] <jo-erlend> yes, that was just a joke. :)
[04:48] <jalcine> Lol, sorry
[04:48] <jalcine> IRC needs a /joke /endjoke command
[04:48] <jalcine> lol
[04:50] <jo-erlend> but I'm serious about the other things. Let's provide _one_ starting point that leads to something concrete. That should be Python with Quickly, Glade, Bazaar and Launchpad.
[04:53] <jalcine> "Building With Ubuntu: A Tutorial"
[04:54] <jo-erlend> jalcine?
[04:54]  * jalcine was thinking of a title.
[04:54] <jo-erlend> ah
[04:54] <jalcine> Something like that would take quite some time.
[04:56] <jo-erlend> right. They come to learn Ubuntu development. Python is the easiest language to learn, and in the process, you learn VCS, GUI design, and collaboration with Launchpad. Once you have that, moving onto another language will be much easier, since you can focus on the language itself.
[04:56] <jalcine> Indeed.
[04:58] <jalcine> This is going to be something I'd think heavily about.
[04:58] <jalcine> G'night all.
[04:58] <jo-erlend> 1) Python basics. OOP is unnecessary. 2) GTK basics. Only signals and packing. 3) VCS basics. 4) GUI design basics.
[04:58] <jalcine> it's ticking an hour past midnight and my oil's all burnt out.
[04:58] <jo-erlend> :)
[04:58] <jo-erlend> sleep well then. :)
[04:59] <jalcine> Heh, yeah, last thing you need to do is confuse them with polymorphism and class inheritance.
[05:00] <jo-erlend> OOP is not at all needed in order to build a simple GTK application.
[05:02] <jo-erlend> I seem to remember someone mentioning a Ubuntu Developer Manual once upon a time. Does anyone know what happened to that?
[05:03] <ajmitch> it could have been for people developing ubuntu, rather than developing with ubuntu
[05:04] <ajmitch> there's been this confusion between the terms :)
[05:15] <jo-erlend> right
[06:34] <jo-erlend> hey rickspencer3 :)
[06:34] <rickspencer3> hello jo-erlend!
[06:34] <jo-erlend> good morning. :)
[06:34] <jo-erlend> you're still in France, right?
[06:34] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend,  I think a lot of your quickly widgets code is in Ubuntu today
[06:34] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend, yes, I'm in France for at least until this summer
[06:35] <jo-erlend> oh. That's cool. I wrote an email to quickly-talk. There's no GSettings schemas being created for new apps. Do you know why?
[06:36] <rickspencer3> jo-erlend, sorry, I don't :(
[06:36] <jo-erlend> I'm not entirely sure how that stuff is supposed to work, so I'm a little bit stuck. But right now, Quickly doesn't work at all.
[06:36] <ajmitch> hi rickspencer3
[06:38] <rickspencer3> hi ajmitch
[06:57] <jo-erlend> rickspencer3, perhaps I've forgotten how it works. I thought running quickly from trunk was simply a matter of adding it to the PYTHONPATH, but that doesn't work?
[06:58] <jo-erlend> I would like to test that it isn't fixed before I add another bug report about it.
[07:04] <jo-erlend> no, it does... I don't know why it didn't before. And the problem is fixed in trunk.
[07:07] <jo-erlend> it'd still be nice to have a PPA though. Particularly now that it's broken in Ubuntu.
[11:48] <mhall119> jo-erlend: where was that "Get help" link?
[11:51] <jo-erlend> mhall119, http://developer.ubuntu.com
[11:51] <jo-erlend> mhall119, Resources > Get help.
[11:52] <jo-erlend> there is one link "on this page", which is the "Community Page". It asks you to contribute. It doesn't do much helping though.
[11:53] <jo-erlend> however, it does have a link back to where you came from. I don't know if that's meant as a hint :)
[12:03] <mhall119> jo-erlend: thanks, I'll make a note of this and try and make it point somewhere more helpful :)
[12:03] <jo-erlend> I just came across one of the nastiest four-letter words... In the middle of an interesting tutorial! You do know which one I'm talking about? That's right! "TODO". :)
[12:04] <mhall119> lol
[12:04] <mhall119> where?
[12:04] <jo-erlend> not related. http://www.tortall.net/mu/wiki/CairoTutorial :)
[12:05] <mhall119> not related == not my problem, I like those
[12:06] <jo-erlend> :)
[22:31]  * JackyAlcine waves at everyone.