tsdgeoswhat's the benefit of recording the whole multiplex? that you can travel back in channels you were not watching?12:23
tsdgeosSaviq: ↑12:23
willcookeYeah, basically we can, for very little cost, record all the programmes on a MUX so that while a recording exists, all the programmes on the same MUX are also available.  (This is DVB-T specially, but its more or less the same on S & C)12:24
Saviqtsdgeos, yes exactly12:24
willcookeThe costs are:  IO12:25
Saviqwillcooke, not DVB-T specially at all12:25
Saviqwillcooke, that's wherever muxes are12:25
willcookesorry - what I meant was "I am talking about DVB-T as an example)12:25
Saviqyeah ok12:25
tsdgeoswillcooke: the cost is explaining the user why he can't go back in some channels and not in some others12:25
tsdgeoswhich is not that easy/obvious12:25
willcooketsdgeos: good point12:25
Saviqtsdgeos, that's why, whenever you're not watching / recording anything12:26
willcooketsdgeos: We could probably fix that with some clever design in the EPG12:26
Saviqtsdgeos, the thing would record, say, the most frequently watched channels12:26
Saviqobviously the power-conscious would have to be able to turn that off12:27
Saviqwillcooke, how many muxes do you have in the UK in DVB-T?12:27
tsdgeosdo we really wasted that much resources?12:27
willcookeerm, off the top of my head 6 DVB-T and 1 DVB-T212:27
Saviqtsdgeos, rephrase please12:28
tsdgeosjust more disk, no?12:28
Saviqtsdgeos, yeah that's mostly it12:28
Saviqtsdgeos, but IO is an issue12:28
Saviqtsdgeos, think of it like that: you recorded / watched programme x / channel y12:28
Saviqwhile doing that, all of the mux was recorded12:28
Saviqbut when you're running out of space12:28
Saviqyou want to get rid of stuff12:29
tsdgeossure, disk space is a concern too12:29
Saviqso the first you should get rid of are those you didn't record purposefully12:29
Saviqtsdgeos, which means that either a) you remux to free space12:29
Saviqor b) demux during recording12:29
Saviqb) sounds less costly12:30
Saviqalso with that your disk would fill up pretty quickly12:30
Saviqnot sure that's an issue, though12:30
Saviqwhat do you need the free space for anyway12:31
Saviqthat's a waste12:31
Saviqtsdgeos, IO is an issue, though, 'cause think of having, I don't know, 4 tuners12:31
Saviqeach of them recording the whole mux12:31
tsdgeosproblem is that usually IO is the slowest thing on the system and putting it to more stress brings the rest of the system down12:32
tsdgeose.g. the moment you start doing "disk" access on my smartphone, everything else stutters12:32
Saviqtsdgeos, but we'd have separate channels to "system" disk and storage12:32
Saviqthat could reduce that impact12:32
Saviqwe would only be saving to external storage12:32
Saviqbut definitely a concern, yes12:33
Saviqlet's do some calc12:33
=== willcooke is now known as willcooke|lunch
Saviq8MHz DVB-T Mux can be up to ~30Mbps12:36
Saviqa DVB-S2 Mux handles things like 62Mbps12:38
Saviqso with 4 tuners we're thinking of IO upwards of 300Mbps12:39
tsdgeoswell, that's a lot :D12:39
SaviqUSB won't cope12:39
tsdgeosbut 4 tuners seems to be on the upside12:39
Saviqtrue, 2 is probably the usual12:40
Saviqfor livetv + recording of different muxes in parallel12:40
mrand2 is common, but in the home DVR/PVR world, 4 is not uncommon, and 8 isn't unheard of.12:40
mrandAlso, be sure to not assume all free space on the disk is yours to fill up.  Best to allow the user to config to leave whatever percent of their disk space open for other uses as they want12:41
Saviqmrand, of course12:41
Saviqmrand, but also when you have 8 tuners you probably take care of the bandwidth to cope with that :)12:42
Saviqtsdgeos, when do you expect your dongle to arrive?12:52
Saviqtsdgeos, can we have the epg dump sqlite3-compatible?13:06
=== willcooke|lunch is now known as willcooke
tsdgeosSaviq: ebay says 21-2713:49
tsdgeosSaviq: sure, let me redo the dump13:50
Saviqwow, they take their time...13:56
Saviqthat's cross-country, though? cross-ocean, even? ;)13:56
tsdgeos2 hour flight14:19
tsdgeosso they are probably sending it via swimmer14:19
tsdgeosi think i've the dump done14:20
tsdgeosimporting it is taking a while though14:20
tsdgeosoh my14:20
tsdgeossqlite is slow14:20
tsdgeosit's on line 2000 of 78000 ...14:22
tsdgeosSaviq: you sure you don't want the mysql dump? :D14:23
Saviqtsdgeos, ;)14:23
Saviqtsdgeos, slow... yes, that seems it is...14:46
tsdgeosstill hasn't finished here...14:46
tsdgeosi think that rules out sqlite :D14:47
tsdgeosfor some reason it seems not to support multiple inserts per insert line14:51
tsdgeosand thus it has to create a transaction for each14:51
tsdgeosand everything goes down14:52
Saviqyeah sqlite isn't great when it comes to "supporting" things...14:53
tsdgeosand still running...15:09
Saviqyup, here, too15:11
Saviqtbh looks locked15:11
Saviqalmost no cpu usage15:12
Saviqno io15:12
Saviqyeah, the data seems to be there15:12
Saviqwell... for schedules, at least15:13
Saviqnot for programmes...15:13
tsdgeosif you tailf the db15:13
tsdgeosit's growing15:13
tsdgeosat least here15:13
willcookeQuestion:  I've been doing some reading about permission to copy programmes you've recorded off of the media on to which you recordeded them.  In the US there is a flag which says you can or can't copy it, and I think there is even a "You can copy this file once" thing as well.  How could we enforce that in an open source software world?17:14
tgm4883willcooke, that is the $1,000 question17:14
willcookedarn, and I've only got 3 cents17:14
willcookegive me the 3 cent answer :D17:15
tgm4883I don't believe you can,17:15
tgm4883it would have to be a closed source blob17:15
willcookefor encryption?17:16
tgm4883According to wikipedia, "According to the rule, hardware must "actively thwart" piracy."17:17
tgm4883I'd guess that means preventing making a copy of the copy. In which case you need some special closed source software that can read the encrypted copy17:18
willcookehmmm. that sucks.17:19
tgm4883although the regulations are no longer in affect apparently, I'm not sure what that means for the ability to recording something marked as "copy once"17:19
* willcooke suspects he needs to do more reading17:19
tgm4883I'd suspect someone from the mythtv project that deals with the recording portion would have a better answer than I17:19
willcookeooo, good idea17:20
tgm4883willcooke, on a ubuntu-tv topic, is there any good documentation on pushing stuff into the EPG and/or episodic view in Ubuntu TV? or does that functionality still not exist yet in code?17:24
willcookeActually, thats something we've been thinking about today.  It doesn't exist yet however.17:26
tgm4883makes it difficult to get anything other than very basic mythtv functionality going17:26
willcookeIt's worth hitting up Saviq and tsdgeos next week.  They are thinking about what the architecture might look like atm17:27
tgm4883will do17:27
tgm4883they are in UK?17:27
willcookePoland & Spain respectively17:27
willcookeSo it's beer o'clock where they are now :)17:28
tgm4883ok, that might complicate things with my schedule, I'll try though17:28
willcookesend en email to the ubuntu-tv mailing list - we still check it :D17:28
willcooke(got to go pick up my kid - bbl)17:29

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