[12:23] <tsdgeos> what's the benefit of recording the whole multiplex? that you can travel back in channels you were not watching?
[12:23] <tsdgeos> Saviq: ↑
[12:24] <willcooke> Yeah, basically we can, for very little cost, record all the programmes on a MUX so that while a recording exists, all the programmes on the same MUX are also available.  (This is DVB-T specially, but its more or less the same on S & C)
[12:24] <Saviq> tsdgeos, yes exactly
[12:25] <willcooke> The costs are:  IO
[12:25] <willcooke> and:
[12:25] <Saviq> willcooke, not DVB-T specially at all
[12:25] <willcooke> ?
[12:25] <Saviq> willcooke, that's wherever muxes are
[12:25] <willcooke> sorry - what I meant was "I am talking about DVB-T as an example)
[12:25] <willcooke> "
[12:25] <Saviq> yeah ok
[12:25] <tsdgeos> willcooke: the cost is explaining the user why he can't go back in some channels and not in some others
[12:25] <tsdgeos> which is not that easy/obvious
[12:25] <willcooke> tsdgeos: good point
[12:26] <Saviq> tsdgeos, that's why, whenever you're not watching / recording anything
[12:26] <willcooke> tsdgeos: We could probably fix that with some clever design in the EPG
[12:26] <Saviq> tsdgeos, the thing would record, say, the most frequently watched channels
[12:27] <Saviq> obviously the power-conscious would have to be able to turn that off
[12:27] <Saviq> willcooke, how many muxes do you have in the UK in DVB-T?
[12:27] <tsdgeos> do we really wasted that much resources?
[12:27] <willcooke> erm, off the top of my head 6 DVB-T and 1 DVB-T2
[12:28] <Saviq> tsdgeos, rephrase please
[12:28] <tsdgeos> just more disk, no?
[12:28] <Saviq> tsdgeos, yeah that's mostly it
[12:28] <Saviq> tsdgeos, but IO is an issue
[12:28] <Saviq> tsdgeos, think of it like that: you recorded / watched programme x / channel y
[12:28] <Saviq> while doing that, all of the mux was recorded
[12:28] <Saviq> but when you're running out of space
[12:29] <Saviq> you want to get rid of stuff
[12:29] <tsdgeos> sure, disk space is a concern too
[12:29] <Saviq> so the first you should get rid of are those you didn't record purposefully
[12:29] <Saviq> tsdgeos, which means that either a) you remux to free space
[12:29] <Saviq> or b) demux during recording
[12:30] <Saviq> b) sounds less costly
[12:30] <Saviq> also with that your disk would fill up pretty quickly
[12:30] <Saviq> not sure that's an issue, though
[12:31] <Saviq> what do you need the free space for anyway
[12:31] <Saviq> that's a waste
[12:31] <tsdgeos> true
[12:31] <Saviq> tsdgeos, IO is an issue, though, 'cause think of having, I don't know, 4 tuners
[12:31] <Saviq> each of them recording the whole mux
[12:32] <tsdgeos> problem is that usually IO is the slowest thing on the system and putting it to more stress brings the rest of the system down
[12:32] <Saviq> yeah
[12:32] <tsdgeos> e.g. the moment you start doing "disk" access on my smartphone, everything else stutters
[12:32] <Saviq> tsdgeos, but we'd have separate channels to "system" disk and storage
[12:32] <Saviq> that could reduce that impact
[12:32] <Saviq> we would only be saving to external storage
[12:33] <Saviq> but definitely a concern, yes
[12:33] <Saviq> let's do some calc
[12:36] <Saviq> 8MHz DVB-T Mux can be up to ~30Mbps
[12:38] <Saviq> a DVB-S2 Mux handles things like 62Mbps
[12:39] <Saviq> so with 4 tuners we're thinking of IO upwards of 300Mbps
[12:39] <tsdgeos> well, that's a lot :D
[12:39] <Saviq> USB won't cope
[12:39] <tsdgeos> but 4 tuners seems to be on the upside
[12:40] <Saviq> true, 2 is probably the usual
[12:40] <Saviq> for livetv + recording of different muxes in parallel
[12:40] <tsdgeos> yeah
[12:40] <mrand> 2 is common, but in the home DVR/PVR world, 4 is not uncommon, and 8 isn't unheard of.
[12:41] <mrand> Also, be sure to not assume all free space on the disk is yours to fill up.  Best to allow the user to config to leave whatever percent of their disk space open for other uses as they want
[12:41] <Saviq> mrand, of course
[12:42] <Saviq> mrand, but also when you have 8 tuners you probably take care of the bandwidth to cope with that :)
[12:42] <mrand> indeed!
[12:52] <Saviq> tsdgeos, when do you expect your dongle to arrive?
[13:06] <Saviq> tsdgeos, can we have the epg dump sqlite3-compatible?
[13:49] <tsdgeos> Saviq: ebay says 21-27
[13:50] <tsdgeos> Saviq: sure, let me redo the dump
[13:56] <Saviq> wow, they take their time...
[13:56] <Saviq> that's cross-country, though? cross-ocean, even? ;)
[14:19] <tsdgeos> nope
[14:19] <tsdgeos> manchester→barcelona
[14:19] <tsdgeos> 2 hour flight
[14:19] <tsdgeos> so they are probably sending it via swimmer
[14:20] <tsdgeos> i think i've the dump done
[14:20] <tsdgeos> importing it is taking a while though
[14:20] <tsdgeos> oh my
[14:20] <tsdgeos> sqlite is slow
[14:22] <tsdgeos> it's on line 2000 of 78000 ...
[14:23] <tsdgeos> Saviq: you sure you don't want the mysql dump? :D
[14:23] <Saviq> tsdgeos, ;)
[14:46] <Saviq> tsdgeos, slow... yes, that seems it is...
[14:46] <tsdgeos> yeah
[14:46] <tsdgeos> still hasn't finished here...
[14:47] <tsdgeos> i think that rules out sqlite :D
[14:48] <Saviq> possibly
[14:51] <tsdgeos> for some reason it seems not to support multiple inserts per insert line
[14:51] <tsdgeos> and thus it has to create a transaction for each
[14:52] <tsdgeos> and everything goes down
[14:53] <Saviq> yeah sqlite isn't great when it comes to "supporting" things...
[15:09] <tsdgeos> and still running...
[15:10] <tsdgeos> :D
[15:11] <Saviq> yup, here, too
[15:11] <Saviq> tbh looks locked
[15:12] <Saviq> almost no cpu usage
[15:12] <Saviq> no io
[15:12] <Saviq> yeah, the data seems to be there
[15:13] <Saviq> well... for schedules, at least
[15:13] <Saviq> not for programmes...
[15:13] <tsdgeos> well
[15:13] <tsdgeos> if you tailf the db
[15:13] <tsdgeos> it's growing
[15:13] <tsdgeos> slowing
[15:13] <tsdgeos> at least here
[17:14] <willcooke> Question:  I've been doing some reading about permission to copy programmes you've recorded off of the media on to which you recordeded them.  In the US there is a flag which says you can or can't copy it, and I think there is even a "You can copy this file once" thing as well.  How could we enforce that in an open source software world?
[17:14] <tgm4883> willcooke, that is the $1,000 question
[17:14] <willcooke> darn, and I've only got 3 cents
[17:15] <willcooke> give me the 3 cent answer :D
[17:15] <tgm4883> I don't believe you can,
[17:15] <tgm4883> it would have to be a closed source blob
[17:16] <willcooke> for encryption?
[17:17] <tgm4883> According to wikipedia, "According to the rule, hardware must "actively thwart" piracy."
[17:18] <tgm4883> I'd guess that means preventing making a copy of the copy. In which case you need some special closed source software that can read the encrypted copy
[17:19] <willcooke> hmmm. that sucks.
[17:19] <tgm4883> although the regulations are no longer in affect apparently, I'm not sure what that means for the ability to recording something marked as "copy once"
[17:19]  * willcooke suspects he needs to do more reading
[17:19] <tgm4883> I'd suspect someone from the mythtv project that deals with the recording portion would have a better answer than I
[17:20] <willcooke> ooo, good idea
[17:24] <tgm4883> willcooke, on a ubuntu-tv topic, is there any good documentation on pushing stuff into the EPG and/or episodic view in Ubuntu TV? or does that functionality still not exist yet in code?
[17:26] <willcooke> Actually, thats something we've been thinking about today.  It doesn't exist yet however.
[17:26] <tgm4883> ok
[17:26] <tgm4883> makes it difficult to get anything other than very basic mythtv functionality going
[17:27] <willcooke> It's worth hitting up Saviq and tsdgeos next week.  They are thinking about what the architecture might look like atm
[17:27] <tgm4883> will do
[17:27] <tgm4883> they are in UK?
[17:27] <willcooke> Poland & Spain respectively
[17:28] <willcooke> So it's beer o'clock where they are now :)
[17:28] <tgm4883> ok, that might complicate things with my schedule, I'll try though
[17:28] <willcooke> send en email to the ubuntu-tv mailing list - we still check it :D
[17:29] <willcooke> (got to go pick up my kid - bbl)