[05:38] I've been testing the Beta disk of Xubuntu Pangolin as a live user. I've noticed improvements in video, especially in full screen. The incremental improvements are quite welcome. [05:40] I have noticed an artifact on the lower right hand corner in of the screen however. Is this just my hardware using the open ati drivers or is it a known issue like the resize handle in the last development series? [05:48] I also see that the notification area applet is greyed out. Is this a design decision or a bug? [06:01] nonau: thanks for doing testing :) unfortunately you caught us while most of the devs are sleeping [06:02] (and I'm almost there myeslf!) [06:02] pleia2: You're quite welcome. It is indeed unfortunate timing then. [06:03] nonau: I'd suggest submitting bugs in both cases, I'm not sure as to the answer to either question [06:06] pleia2: Are there any logs in particular which I should consider attaching then? I've got some free time to do it now. [06:07] nonau: perhaps a screenshot for both to demonstrate what you're talking about? [06:07] I'm not sure beyond that [06:09] Alright, thank you. [06:09] sure, sorry I couldn't be more helpful :) [06:52] bugs reported per request [09:00] meh, where are those bugreports, i can't find them... [09:00] pleia2: feel free to ping me whenever you're up on the audio-stuff :) [09:47] when wife goes to work, i could look at the stuff too (just updated the laptop to most recent stuff yesterday) [09:47] cool [09:47] btw, are you one of those lp-wizards who could find the bugs reported by nonau earlier? [09:47] i also have a popping sound from the speakers (probably something to do with power issues and the soundcard going off/on) [09:47] i think i should look into that too... [09:47] yeah, would be good to get that sorted for the lts [09:48] that's probably about the hardware though [09:48] yeah, could be [09:48] most likely is [09:48] there isn't almost a single hardware piece in that laptop that worked OOTB :P [09:49] pff :) [09:49] yeah. [09:49] i guess then i can call myself lucky, because for my dell everything always worked ootb [09:49] yup [09:49] well, i suppose dell is better than most [09:49] yeah, that cooperation between them and canonical at least bore that fruit [09:50] (even if not financial revenue for canonical) [09:50] ;) [10:18] so i noticed you guys changed the logo on a single person's vote [10:19] here's a discussion about it [10:19] http://boards.4chan.org/g/res/23645521 [10:19] oh and here's a new one [10:19] http://i.imgur.com/madsR.png [10:19] although the old one was definitely best [10:19] well that's all i have to say [10:20] technology_: hi [10:21] hi [10:21] there is quite a lot of trolling noise in that discussion tbh [10:21] anonymity brings honesty [10:22] i think you missed my point [10:22] but anyway, the meetings are open [10:22] so basically if you (or anyone else from that discussion on 4chan) wanted to attend it and vote, there would've been no stopping you [10:22] it's a messed up procedure to vote on important things at an IRC meeting at a certain time and date [10:23] should be a poll somewhere else [10:23] it passed by one vote, that makes no sense [10:23] yeah, we discussed that again after that meeting [10:23] the meeting procedure is one point of the argument, and i agree that should be re-thought [10:24] as should all votes that came from it..even a 12 hour window or 24 hour window for user input is more fair [10:24] imagine if we changed the american flag on the basis of one vote [10:24] tbh there are hardly any design decisions in this distribution that are based on user input [10:25] (i'm speaking mainly about artwork now) [10:25] the main reason for that being that there is hardly any feedback [10:25] there's hardly any feedback due to the convoluted meeting structure [10:25] just finding this channel was a maze [10:26] this channel isn't exactly hidden [10:26] this, of course, can in part be blamed on us because we're probably not providing a good enough way for feedback [10:26] neither is our mailing list [10:26] to be fair, if you are at all connected with the development of xubuntu, you will know both exist [10:26] but the other thing is that there aren't very many people who want to really get involved [10:26] irc discussions are too fleeting in nature, it's a good way for discussions, not feedback or voting [10:27] Tadpole: why is it not a good way of giving feedback? [10:27] technology_: feedback or input can be given at any time. meetings are just a way to get to formal decisions/reports about things [10:28] ochosi: the person that you want to reach may not be online [10:28] if things like this matter to you so much, why aren't you more active on the places where development happens? [10:28] when that person comes online, (s)he can't see what was said [10:28] unless there are logs, ofc. [10:28] no, there is logs [10:28] Tadpole: theoretically yes, practically everyone can read logs [10:29] Tadpole: also: most of us are always here and read their backlog when pinged [10:29] seriously, the xubuntu development happens inside such a small group of people that irc is actually pretty fine [10:29] okay then, forget what I said [10:29] for stuff like voting, you'd still be better off with surveymonkey or something similar [10:29] we've been trying to get hold of the community in the past, but we have never got any feedback [10:30] ``What do you mean you didn't know the Earth was scheduled for destruction? The proposal was filed in the planning office at Procyon Centauri barely four light-years away!'' [10:30] things like surveymonkey will allow skewed results [10:30] wutwutwut: fitting [10:30] the thing is, i really appreciate both of you (Tadpole,technology_) speaking up, it's sometimes pretty silent in here. would be nice if you got involved somehow [10:31] technology_, Tadpole: i agree with ochosi. i'd really like to get some feedback, but really, i'd like to get it BEFORE we do some changes [10:31] I have a question...Is xubuntu free? [10:31] metalmatt13, it is free of charge [10:31] uh believe it or not i monitor every meeting with this distribution; usually through the public logs [10:32] that's why i was surprised a big decision like this was made so quickly [10:32] and if not is there any chance of it becoming free [10:32] I mean free as in freedom [10:32] so i asked my friends about it and they were all surprised too, a lot of them actually use xubuntu [10:32] i have to go for a bit [10:33] yo [10:33] while anonymity might bring honesty, it also brings trolling. now, all of you from 4chan, stop trolling or you will find yourself out of this channel [10:33] new logo looks weird === knome changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Bugs List: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs/PrecisePangolin | Daily Testing results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/204/builds [10:37] question: why isn't xubuntu free? [10:37] metalmatt13, please define "freedom" first [10:37] This website has more info on it [10:37] http://www.fsf.org/ [10:38] we do ship packages that are not free as defined by FSF. there is an installation option not to allow these packages to be installed, though, on the installer [10:38] Here is a good link [10:38] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html [10:38] Alright [10:38] is there anything else i can help you with? [10:39] Nope that would be it [10:39] yaknowthatguy, did you get your answer too, or should i try to clarify? [10:39] nah it's cool [10:39] :) [10:40] hi [10:40] hello [10:40] i came here just to say that the new logo is terrible [10:40] please don't change it [10:40] thanks for the feedback [10:40] anyway, just to get this to some constructive point: the new logo has been decided at an open meeting. if you want to be part of future decisions feel free to come here more often and contribute. [10:40] seriously, just keep it the way it is [10:40] the new logo has been uploaded to 12.04 [10:41] oh god [10:41] s/god/good [10:41] i encourage continuous contributing too :) [10:41] you really should reconsider [10:41] thats bad news. [10:42] once it goes public you'll get even more negative feedback [10:42] as ochosi said, it's been decided at an open meeting [10:42] how many voted? [10:42] and what was the margin? [10:42] 5 people vote, with a margin of one, iirc, but that's not weird in the very small community. [10:42] 5 people? That's not much at all. [10:42] 5 people? [10:42] yeah, if you follow the development of xubuntu, this will not surprise you [10:43] yaknowthatguy, metalmatt13: that's like about how many people involve in the xubuntu development [10:43] there aren't many more people doing the work :) [10:43] + a few [10:43] that's the average number of voters, it has always been like that [10:43] Do you think in the future there will be a re vote? [10:43] metalmatt13, most possibly not in the near future. [10:43] ok [10:43] i think the next (sensible) chance to change the logo again is the next lts [10:43] maybe the next time we are choosing a new logo [10:44] ochosi, that's most probably true, it was 2 years (the last LTS) when we changed the last time :) [10:44] guys, LXDE is starting to gain on you. you can't just change things right now [10:44] Should of asked what the public thought, the users ya know. [10:44] please keep the logo as it was before [10:44] you have no idea how many people get mad over this [10:44] Mullins, err, i'm happy if lxde does well, it's not a fight [10:44] I don't beleive the logo is that big of a deal [10:44] yaknowthatguy: that is really difficult, ya know :) [10:45] metalmatt13: +1 [10:45] there's no competition between lubuntu and xubuntu (at least from the developers' pov) [10:45] how? [10:45] and xfce and lxde try two completely different things [10:45] you guys have to treat this like a competition [10:45] Mullins, no, we don't, and we won't [10:45] everybody knows xfce is better [10:45] Mullins: i disagree, i'm doing this in my free time without any financial gain. why should i compete? i'd rather cooperate with them [10:45] Mullins, it is not a competition, it is about providing the best possible OS we can, and lubuntu does the same [10:45] lxde is not enough, period [10:45] Mullins, then don't use lxde [10:46] It's preference, but I personally love xfce way more, lxde is a little more light weight though [10:46] not bay far though [10:46] by* [10:46] im just trying to warn you that this will make people upset when it goes stable [10:46] yaknowthatguy: well for one, the mailinglist and the irc channel are pretty silent. not many people want to get involved [10:46] this is just the beginning [10:46] Mullins: "this"? [10:46] A poll on the site? [10:46] Mullins, we got your point. [10:47] Mullins: I think there are more things to worry about in a distribution than the logo. [10:47] It's just a small cosmetic feature [10:47] the idea of voting in xubuntu is not meant to be anonymous as in 4chan - the idea is to have the USERS of xubuntu vote [10:47] i understand that the logo isnt a huge deal, but you need to understand that geeks freak out over everything [10:47] Which, I'm sure you could change yourself if you really dislike it [10:47] that's why most of the ideas are born dead - if we had 100 votes, i'd be worried about all of them coming from xubuntu users [10:47] Mullins, okay, we get that, can you move on? [10:48] so like if a professional graphic designer that has been in the industry for years and years means less than a guy that used xubuntu for a few minutes? [10:48] no. [10:48] they should have the same weight on voting. [10:48] but if you are not a xubuntu user, then why should you be able to vote? [10:49] yup, that's why there should be restrictions like being on the launchpad xubuntu-users team [10:49] does the public people decide which logo apple will use? [10:49] was there an a message on the homepage announcing this? [10:49] My opinion: the new logo sucks, but if you did a massive community poll for every minor change you'd never get anything done. [10:49] knome: are you feeding trolls? :) [10:49] I'd just like to interject for a moment and say that I agree with Mullins, the new logo hardly resembles a mouse at all. [10:50] wutwutwut: yup [10:50] that's different, apple isn't a community based thing. [10:50] yaknowthatguy, there was a message on the twitter feed and there was the usual call for meeting in the mailing list. [10:50] it looks like a gnome foot [10:50] its not unique at all [10:50] ochosi, you're right :) [10:50] Mullins, thanks for the feedback. is there anything else we can help you with? [10:50] @xubuntu? [10:50] yaknowthatguy: Error: "xubuntu?" is not a valid command. [10:50] nobody can tell the icon is a mouse [10:51] yaknowthatguy, @xubuntulinux [10:51] it looks like a gnome foot [10:51] Mullins, thank you. [10:51] the feedback is appreciated [10:52] you guys should hold a vote for the public if you want real feedback [10:52] this irc room is honest [10:52] Mullins, the meeting was open [10:52] Mullins, the meeting was held in this honest, as you say, irc room. [10:52] A twitter with 250 people following is better than the site which has a much broader view? [10:52] the meeting was open but only 5 people voted [10:52] Mullins: feel free to propose a new voting procedure at the next meeting :) [10:52] you should have the users vote [10:52] (and again, that's the average number of voters) [10:53] not if you put a poll on xubuntu.com [10:53] please try it [10:53] as i've said before, we have announced the meeting, and to be fair, anybody at least remotely tied with the xubuntu development will know of the mailing list, which got the email about the meeting along with a link to the agenda [10:53] (so it's fine when you agree with the decisions, but worth a post on 4chan when you disagree...) [10:54] to whomever posting the question about the new logo in small sizes on 4chan; yes, the new logo will work better on small sizes [10:54] Why not? Asking others if they agree with them. [10:55] it works better on small sizes im sure, but it doesnt even look like a mouse/rat anymore [10:55] it looks like a gnome foot [10:55] you have to retain your identity [10:55] keep it looking like a cute mouse/rat [10:55] people like that kind of thing [10:55] Mullins, one more time, thanks for the feedback. if there is nothing new you can bring to the discussion, please stop repeating [10:56] this is the only discussion that is happening [10:56] exactly, and we've heard your opinion [10:56] no-one is even disagreeing it [11:00] I find the statistics at popcon (http://popcon.ubuntu.com/by_inst) very interesting, 111,071 xubuntu installs (going by installs of the meta package xubuntu-default-settings) and yet 5 votes or less on most matters...i think some things should still be discussed here but not everyone can get to a meeting in IRC at a set time...more important issues should be brought to a web poll with one vote per IP, or maybe a vote on launchp [11:01] technology_, as mr_pouit brought out before, 5 votes is about the count we have decided on other things too before, since there hasn't been more active community members [11:02] we welcome people who want to get involved, unfortunately, not so many :( [11:02] Anyway, I'm glad my 4chan thread could allow some members of the communityt to know more about the development process and maybe some of us can get involved...I was not aware that there was much to do in a distro that's mainly art and merging of upstream xfce changes [11:02] i completely agree with the thing that the voting system should be changed - this is why it is on my list for the Q cycle [11:03] i agree with technology. a vote should be put on a website somewhere. [11:04] as long as it can be hooked to launchpad and the xubuntu-users group, it's an option [11:05] i don't think there is a wordpress plugin to do that though, and judging on the contributor quantity, it looks like i had to write that, and i'm not sure if it's reasonable to use that much time for that only [11:05] hehe [11:06] oh, too bad he got uninterested. he could've written the plugin. [11:06] Why do they have to be xubuntu users anyways? [11:06] currently, joining the group is open [11:06] and most probably will be in the future as well [11:06] knome: this is very simple, file a bug report on launchpad each time, have voting in the comments for 24 hours, close the bug report [11:06] only xubuntu-users can vote on it [11:07] there's no need to do anything else, only to extend the amount of time that xubuntu-users and xubuntu-developers can vote [11:07] technology_: why not propose that at the next meeting and discuss it? [11:07] technology_, that's not very efficient [11:07] because i can't be here at the meetings, they're at a bad time for me [11:07] anyway, it's been nice to see some discussions in here, i'm off to do some work [11:07] see you later ochosi [11:08] see you [11:08] technology_, extending the voting time is a good idea [11:09] knome: i don't see how that's not efficient, there's what, one or two vote issues every week [11:09] you can even script it [11:09] imo, the best option would clearly be voting integrated to launchpad [11:09] technology_, who does count the comments? [11:10] technology_, how to make sure there is no irrelevant comments, or flaming? [11:10] well like you said it shouldn't be hard to count five or so comments [11:10] this way it might only get up to 10 [11:11] knome: i can work on a userscript if you'd like to search for the text "Vote for option n" in each comment and not count two votes from the same user...comments without this text will be ignored [11:11] what was the popcon statistics comment about then? i thought you were suggesting we could get 111k votes. [11:11] no, i'm just saying 111k people use xubuntu [11:11] so for a dev team to be this small, it's pretty strange [11:11] that was my comment [11:11] no, that's not the point. afaik there is no way to restrict commenting to single or a few groups only in LP [11:11] and bugs are not really the right way to go for voting, bugs are for bugs [11:12] I'm all for a public vote on http://xubuntu.org/ [11:13] it could work if limited to one vote/IP range [11:13] Mullins, as i said, once it's possible to hook that with LP, it's an option [11:13] technology_, no, LP doesn't have that technology [11:13] Repeating my comment. Why do they have to be xubuntu users anyways? [11:13] yaknowthatguy, that's what reads in the strategy document, written by a previous project lead [11:13] and i agree with that [11:13] because that makes the most sense [11:14] uh knome if i could just direct your attention to something [11:14] https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-users [11:14] there's a polls thing right to the right of the page [11:14] does this not work? [11:14] https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-users/+poll/xubuntu-panel-layout [11:14] look there even was a poll once in 2008 [11:14] looks like the votes were purged [11:15] technology_, i suppose it does; tbh, we haven't looked much into this public voting, since there hasn't been any feedback [11:15] the lp team disabled team polls in 2011, but apparently they reenabled them... [11:15] it's an option [11:15] do you mind if i write about it to the mailing list? [11:15] yes, it definitely is an option once we get to discuss the voting [11:16] technology_, please do [11:16] (http://blog.launchpad.net/general/team-polls-restored-but-future-is-unclear) [11:16] mmh [11:16] alright, i'll research it more [11:16] we'd have to check if polling is suddenly going to disappear again... [11:16] for now i have to go to work [11:16] if a large team was using it they wouldn't remove it [11:16] Warning: incoming /b/tard. [11:16] as in really using it [11:16] i don't think anyone's using it currently [11:16] "It is also not possible to contact every member of team in Launchpad. How do team members ever know when a team admin creates a poll?" [11:16] ^ doesn't sound good [11:17] if they're active in development [11:17] then they know [11:17] doesn't sound any different than sending an email to ML [11:17] (but if you post the link to the poll on the mailing list, might work) [11:17] if they are, they already know [11:17] it just opens up a time [11:17] since it's posted to the development mailing list [11:17] but they can't vote at the time [11:17] anyway, ill write more on the ml [11:17] Development mailing list? [11:17] for now i need to leave [11:17] yaknowthatguy, yes [11:18] Wasn't this for the general xubuntu user? [11:18] yaknowthatguy, yes, but the developer mailing list is for development issues [11:18] yaknowthatguy, -users list is for support [11:18] Well yea. [11:18] yaknowthatguy, and everybody is free to join the -devel list [11:18] I know. [11:19] so those who are interested in development, should be subscribed anyway to -devel [11:20] http://images.4chan.org/g/src/1332155280443.png [11:21] hmm, interesting artistic impression. i thought one cheek only had one eye [11:22] I think it's meant to be a bunny, facing the opposite direction from the mouse. [11:23] http://images.4chan.org/g/src/1332150994403.jpg <- THAT looks like a bunny [11:42] hey [11:42] hello [13:20] hey GridCube [13:35] knome, sorry, did you said something? my internets are failing on me [13:36] GridCube: you didn't miss anything since "hey GridCube" :) [13:36] oh ok :) thanks ochosi [13:36] np [13:47] Hiya GridC ... (Read Error: Connection reset by peer) [13:47] lol [14:18] GridCube, hai [14:19] hai :P [14:19] im figthing against my proxy [14:24] That's one abstract fight indeed. [14:27] knome: re: bugs, and especially bugmail, being a member of Xubuntu Team makes me automatically subscribed to the majority of it, right? [14:27] should [14:28] ~xubuntu-bugs is better I think [14:28] https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-bugs [14:28] hmm, three members [14:29] hey leo-unglaub [14:29] Yeah, maybe ~xubuntu-team should be a subteam of it? [14:30] Or would that be too much? [14:30] no, most people don't want all the bugmail [14:30] ... I think [14:30] astraljava, looks like xubuntu team WAS a member [14:30] (that was the reason for the separate team) [14:30] yeah, what i'm getting from xubuntu-team and ubuntustudio-devel is enough :P [14:30] Well, I joined it now. [14:43] * Myrtti waves hand to knome [14:43] tara [15:06] Hi, I have a question about lightdm-gtk-greeter in Xubuntu 12.04 [15:06] As some of you may know, I'm a translator of the Ubuntu Dutch Translators team. In Xubuntu 11.10, we have fully translated lightdm-gtk-greeter into Dutch. [15:07] But in Xubuntu 12.04, everything in the greeter is in English again. And I can't find out where to translate it... Does anybody know? [15:07] https://launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter [15:08] you need to bug the maintainer until he sets up things correctly in launchpad... [15:08] good luck, he's very hard to reach :] [15:09] mr_pouit: Would that be Robert Ancell? [15:10] yes [15:10] * knome is waiting "i'm his neighbour!" [15:10] but that's not going to happen.. [15:11] mr_pouit: Maybe you know in which IRC channel Robert Ancell usually hangs out? [15:11] Pjotr, none :| [15:12] Pjotr: i tried to contact him ~2weeks back, no answer until now (via email) [15:12] maybe you have more luck via a bugreport... [15:13] OK.... I'll file a bug report and let you know, so that you can support it [15:13] good plan [15:14] Pjotr: if you still have no answer after the beta 2 release, ping me about that [15:15] There are other team members in the LightDM Development Team, besides Robert Ancell. Has anybody tried contacting one of those: https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-team [15:15] mr_pouit: thanks, will do that. :-) [15:16] most of them are working on ubuntu-desktop/unity, so not on the gtk-greeter (only unity-greeter) [15:24] I'm working on that with didrocks [15:27] OK, here's the bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/959397 [15:27] Launchpad bug 959397 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "In Precise, lightdm-gtk-greeter is entirely untranslatable" [Undecided,New] [15:27] Support is welcome. :-) [15:27] Pjotr: ok, bumped status to "confirmed" ;) [15:31] Another matter: Xubuntu 12.04 has a great new addition: a menu editor. Thanks, guys! :-) [15:31] I would like to improve the Dutch translation of this menu editor. But I can't find it in Launchpad... Does anybody know? [15:31] it's alacarte [15:32] hop, I created a team for the gtk greeter, and didrocks gave admin rights to it [15:32] (it's mostly alacarte working again with the xfce menu) [15:32] ochosi: thanks. :-) [15:32] yw [15:37] I'll set up translations this evening [15:38] mr_pouit: Great! Thank you. [15:38] mr_pouit: Wouldn't hurt if someone from US team joined it, no? [15:39] One last issue: I'm also an upstream translator for Xfce. Upstream at Xfce, I tried to convince Nick to do a new release of xfce4-power-manager, solely for getting the new Dutch translation downstream (which has been waiting for almost a year now). [15:39] Apparently he's not enthusiastic about it, because he doesn't want to release old goodies without new application code. [15:39] Is there still a way of getting the drastically improved Dutch translation into xfce4-power-manager in Xubuntu 12.04? [16:03] I set up translatations [16:03] erf, too late [16:32] knome: did the 32-bit images stop building the same day we switched to non-pae? [16:33] ochosi: my laptop doesn't have a mute button :( but if there are other tests I can do... [16:33] I'm working right now, but can squeeze things in as needed [16:33] pleia2: hey! [16:34] well if xfce4-mixer still works and we still get notifications from that, that's already one good thing to know [16:34] yep, that worked fine [16:34] i'll try to set up an install today or tomorrow [16:34] to test the mute-button thingy [16:34] oh in fact there might be something else you could test [16:35] after following these instructions, does xfce4-mixer still work as expected: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xfce4-volumed/+bug/883485/comments/3 [16:35] Launchpad bug 883485 in xfce4-volumed "Pulse Audio don't get unmuted when XF86AudioMute is used" [Undecided,Won't fix] [16:35] and does the sound-indicator stillwork [16:36] is /active-card a placeholder or an actual thing? [16:36] it's the name of the xfconf-property you're setting with the command [16:37] you can do the same thing by going to menu>settings>settings editor and then select xfce4-mixer on the left and change the value of the property active-card on the right [16:38] this is what it looks like by default: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-03192012-053800pm.php [16:39] and this is what it should look like: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-03192012-053923pm.php [16:39] probably you have to restart your session though [16:44] ok [16:44] ty! [16:49] http://paste.ubuntu.com/890909/ [16:50]