[01:29] <debfx> micahg: it turns the expired certificate error to a warning
[03:17] <littlegirl> Hey there, does anybody know if there is a list of entities used in the Kubuntu docs, and if so, where it is?
[03:23] <ScottK> Darkwing: ^^^
[03:23]  * littlegirl attempts to conjure Darkwing... (:
[09:06] <bulldog98> Riddell: nice post about arm isos
[09:07] <Riddell> bulldog98: I can't believe there is no mailing list to discuss arm on
[09:07] <Riddell> the precise images don't work for me and I have nowhere to discuss it except hope to find the right people on irc
[09:07] <bulldog98> you could ask for creating one
[09:08] <Riddell> maybe they have an internal canonical one but if so that should go (the team no longer exists in canonical anyway)
[09:09] <Riddell> mm there is an internal one just called "arm"
[09:09] <Riddell> maybe I'll subscribe and see if I get approved :)
[09:32] <Riddell> Tm_Tr: nice approach in #kubuntu :)
[09:33] <Tm_T> yeah
[09:33] <Tm_T> I have little intention to help someone who has that kind of attitude /:
[09:33] <Riddell> well aye, not much else can be done to appease someone grumpy with kmail, it really is a disappointment
[09:34] <Tm_T> well, "find in a message" works just fine here
[09:34] <Tm_T> but I assume he wants to find in messageS which is different thing
[09:35] <Riddell> yeah that'll be a nepomuk thing which is never very reliable
[09:35] <Riddell> although saying that find in file works great for me currently
[09:38] <Riddell> oh my goodness
[09:38] <Riddell> ksecrets works!
[09:38] <Tm_T> all in all, I have little to complain with Kmail in my use
[09:38] <Riddell> ubuntuone-control-panel-qt just works with it!
[09:38] <Tm_T> Riddell: nice
[09:38] <Riddell> oh, no it doesn't :(
[09:39] <Tm_T> Riddell: nice
[09:39]  * Tm_T hides
[09:40] <Riddell> it worked at startup but there's an error on login
[09:40] <Riddell> tsk
[10:46] <Riddell> afiestas: hey did you get sponsorship for UDS?
[10:46] <Riddell> I haven't seen a list yte
[10:46] <afiestas> Riddell: yes !
[10:47] <soee> hi
[10:47] <Riddell> afiestas: do you know anyone else?
[10:48] <afiestas> yes, drf and rbelem at least
[10:53] <shadeslayer> oh, drf is going to UDS? :D
[10:53] <shadeslayer> Riddell: how long does the arm pbuilder take to unpack and everything ?
[10:53] <Riddell> shadeslayer: no idea, I've never used it
[10:53] <shadeslayer> ok
[10:54] <Riddell> shadeslayer: what are you testing on arm?
[10:54] <shadeslayer> Riddell: digikam supposedly supplied a better patch, need to test and report it back upstream
[10:56] <Riddell> shadeslayer: I actually have an arm machine working for one day only if you need to build on precise
[10:57] <shadeslayer> Riddell: ok, for some reason ScottK's machine doesn't go further than : File extracted to: /var/cache/pbuilder/build//8395
[10:57] <shadeslayer> Riddell: digikam just needs to be built from git ...
[10:57] <Riddell> shadeslayer: mine might be useful for building without a pbuilder
[10:57] <shadeslayer> okay
[10:57] <ScottK> Are you sure you where patient enough?
[10:58] <shadeslayer> ScottK: 25 minutes and counting
[10:59] <ScottK> It does seem a bit stopped.
[11:00] <ScottK> What we can't see it file I/O, so I'd wait.
[11:00] <shadeslayer> well, I created it with pbuilder-dist precise create
[11:00] <shadeslayer> ok
[11:00] <ScottK> should work
[11:00] <Riddell> ScottK: what is the actual hardware you have there?
[11:05] <ScottK> It's Efika MX Smarttop.
[11:05] <Riddell> ScottK: netboot style devices?
[11:05] <Riddell> netbook
[11:05] <ScottK> No.
[11:06] <ScottK> This is a little box.
[11:06] <ScottK> It's an end user type device though, not just a bar board.
[11:07] <Riddell> ScottK: http://paulfedora.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/new-arrivals-genesi-efika-mx-smarttop/ ?
[11:07] <ScottK> Yes
[11:07] <Riddell> lovely
[11:08] <ScottK> Unfortunately, Ubuntu never supported them, so I either have to switch them to Debian or Linaro.
[11:08] <Riddell> ScottK: does Linaro support them?
[11:09] <ScottK> Yes
[11:09] <Riddell> surely Linaro works with the same things as ubuntu does?
[11:09] <Riddell> fabo: why are you not working upstream ^^ ? :)
[11:14] <fabo> Riddell: ScottK: for efika, complain to ogra/markos? :)
[11:15] <fabo> btw, Linaro producing hwpack on top of Ubuntu, it's just that Canonical doesn't support it
[11:15] <Riddell> fabo: what is hwpack?
[11:15] <Riddell> fabo: if my pandaboard isn't booting current ubuntu desktop images are there equivalent linaro precise desktop ones I could try?
[11:16] <ScottK> Ubuntu doesn't even carry the subarch (mx5) anymore.
[11:17] <fabo> Riddell: hardware pack, meta tarball that contains bootloader/kernel/blobs if needed
[11:17] <fabo> Riddell: yes, we support panda and have a ubuntu desktop image
[11:18] <fabo> ScottK: dropped recently? I raised concerns for i.MX51 but not i.MX53...
[11:18] <ScottK> Dunno about 53. The boxes I have are 51.
[11:20] <Riddell> fabo: what is the equivalent of BIOS on a pandaboard called?
[11:20] <Riddell> firmware?
[11:26] <fabo> ScottK: i.MX51 isn't supported by FSL, that's why it was dropped
[11:26] <fabo> Riddell: the bootloader (u-boot or uefi)
[11:30]  * shadeslayer goes off to look at the new L4T release
[11:31] <Riddell> fabo: that's the hardware bit?
[11:31] <Riddell> ScottK: L4T?
[11:37] <Riddell> whoopsie 28918     1  0 08:12 ?        00:00:00 whoopsie  whatever is that?
[11:38] <tsdgeos> whoopsie - Ubuntu crash database submission daemon
[11:39] <shadeslayer> Riddell: linux 4 tegra
[11:39] <shadeslayer> uh
[11:39] <shadeslayer> Riddell: that was probably because of me : Sorry, command-not-found has crashed! Please file a bug report at:
[11:39] <shadeslayer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/command-not-found/+filebug
[11:39] <shadeslayer> Please include the following information with the report:
[11:40] <Riddell> shadeslayer: one of your root kits is it? :)
[11:40] <shadeslayer> :D
[11:41] <shadeslayer> seems like command-not-found doesn't work on armhf :)
[11:42] <ulysses> !find libg2c.so
[11:45] <shadeslayer> ScottK: I think my pbuilder is stuck :)
[11:58] <Riddell> yofel: I packaged ksecrets today and I see you did recently too
[11:58] <Riddell> yofel: I've put it in experimental ppa too, I think it lacks the .dbg package compared to yours but that's all
[11:59] <Riddell> yofel: I'm going to post to the ksecrets list to get some answers
[12:08] <fabo> Riddell: no, it's software bits
[12:12] <Riddell> fabo: so what's the term for the hardware bits?
[12:18] <mischasworld> hello
[12:18] <Riddell> hi mischasworld 
[12:19] <mischasworld> I recently updated to precise kubuntu beta, suspend to ram via settings in kde settings is not working, if i call pm-suspend via sudo its working any iedas to fix this?
[12:20] <Riddell> user questions in #kubuntu
[12:21] <mischasworld> i thoughts ist devel cause its still beta I'll move ;-) thanks
[12:22] <Tm_T> well, +1 versions are supported on #ubuntu+1 usually (:
[12:22] <apol> do you guys know about any apt/sources.list files parser?
[12:25] <apol> or do you know where should I ask?
[12:27] <Riddell> apol: mvo and glatzor know about package managers in ubuntu
[12:27] <Riddell> apol: but I think we all just fork and run software-properties
[12:28] <BluesKaj> hi all
[12:29] <apol> hm
[12:29] <apol> Riddell: can you point me to the softwareproperties source code?
[12:40] <yofel> Riddell: well, I put it in experimental a while ago, but if you made a proper package that's great
[12:41] <yofel> does yours at least work right?
[12:41] <yofel> apol: bzr co lp:software-properties
[12:42] <apol> hm thanks
[12:43] <yofel> apol: or https://code.launchpad.net/software-properties
[12:46] <apol> :)
[12:47] <Riddell> yofel: I think it works as well as I can expect but the only app I know that uses it gives an error 
[12:54] <shadeslayer> Riddell: tp-qt needs rebuilding, they deleted the older farsight package, could you upload it?
[12:55] <shadeslayer> ScottK: I'm killing the pbuilder, unless you want to investigate
[13:07] <shadeslayer> Riddell: do you have special fans or sth cooling your pandaboard? :D
[13:08] <shadeslayer> because it's about to become hot ...
[13:12] <Riddell> shadeslayer: you can see it here http://blogs.kde.org/node/4546
[13:12] <Riddell> shadeslayer: arm chips don't become hot, they just stay slow
[13:13] <shadeslayer> oh sweet, looking
[13:15]  * shadeslayer has like a bazillion things to do on his TODO
[13:24] <Riddell> shadeslayer: only a bazillion?  you're lucky!
[13:24] <shadeslayer> \o/
[13:26] <Riddell> shadeslayer: let me know when that digikam build is done, I've a few tests to run on that machine (it should finish any day now)
[13:26] <shadeslayer> will do
[13:27] <shadeslayer> it's at 4% ... going to take a bit of time
[14:20] <Riddell> how's this? http://blogs.kde.org/node/4547
[14:20] <Riddell> Kubuntu and the state of free consumer software
[14:24] <tazz> Riddell, +1 for the post -1 for the name change.
[14:24] <apachelogger> Riddell: good read, I actually shall poke you later today about that
[14:25] <apachelogger> also sorry for dropping of the intarwebs
[14:25] <tazz> "kubuntu" as a brand has had momentum behind it.
[14:25] <Riddell> apachelogger: I'm glad you climbed back up
[14:25] <Riddell> tazz: yes there are advantages to staying with the current name too, it's mostly down to what canonical will allow to be done with their trademark
[14:25] <apachelogger> yofel: yes, I plan on filing the uifreeze exception request today and hopefully upload tomorrow
[14:26] <tazz> Riddell, ok.
[14:26] <apachelogger> yofel: IMHO we should stuff the wallpaper into workspace
[14:26] <apachelogger> oh actually that doesn't work ^^
[14:26] <yofel> why not?
[14:26] <apachelogger> cuz plymouth needs the image to be in the plymouth image folder
[14:27] <yofel> ah k
[14:27] <apachelogger> so unless we stuff the plymouth artwork into the kdm theme folder which is fuggly we have a problem
[14:27] <yofel> but still, KDM should use the same one
[14:27] <apachelogger> though that might in fact be the best bet here
[14:27] <apachelogger> otherwise we might go oversized
[14:27] <apachelogger> oh
[14:27] <apachelogger> better yet
[14:27] <yofel> or we symlink the plymouth background to the kdm folder?
[14:27] <apachelogger> someone please package the artwork from kde svn
[14:27] <apachelogger> make it a seperate package
[14:27] <apachelogger> yofel: yes
[14:28] <apachelogger> oh well
[14:28] <apachelogger> I'll have to muse about it at uni
[14:28] <apachelogger> yofel: problem is that plymouth has one resolution though we should totally support all resolutions of the background (via extra package)
[14:28] <apachelogger> for plymouth I use 800x600
[14:29] <apol> Riddell: do you know if it's very harmful to call apt-add-repository -y from the user interface? what kind of interaction is expected?
[14:29] <apachelogger> since that image ends up in the initramfs and thus directly affects boot time
[14:30] <Riddell> apol: I'm afraid I don't know, best ask mvo
[14:31] <georgelappies___> hi all, where can I get a list comparing the changes in kubuntu 11.10 to kubuntu 12.04?
[14:31] <apol> Riddell: what channel?
[14:32] <apachelogger> #ubuntu-devel
[14:32] <apachelogger> apol: btw, I think that will not work ... e.g. one query would be if there already is a repo with that name, whether it should be replaced
[14:32] <apachelogger> (or so I'd imagine anyway)
[14:32] <apachelogger> apol: I think libqapt can do the same stuff, or at least I requested it like ages ago :)
[14:33] <apol> hmmm...
[14:33] <apachelogger> anyhow ... off to uni
[14:43] <Riddell> jussi: you're grumbling about LibreOffice?  Time to explore Calligra?
[14:47] <fabo> Riddell: well, the hardware bits part is a data storage device. could be flash memory (sdcard), etc...
[14:56] <jussi> Riddell: Ive tried calligra not so long ago, has it changed much? it was missing a big stack of features, including a format painter, proper handling of MS office formats  nad several other things I dont remember
[14:57] <Riddell> jussi: what's a format painter?
[14:58] <Riddell> jussi: MS Office format importing is reputed to be better than LibreOffice (since it's what KO spends makes its money doing) but I've not done any formal testing
[14:58] <jussi> Riddell: click a place where you like the formatting, click format painter, highlight other stuff you want the first places formatting to go
[14:58] <jussi> Riddell: but can calligra export yet?
[14:59] <Riddell> I don't know, I've never had any need or desire to export to MS Office format and lots to not do so
[14:59] <jussi> hehe, I guess you dont send much to people who use ms office.
[15:00] <Riddell> I do I just make a point in using open formats
[15:00] <Riddell> .odt and .rtf work fine, as do pdf html and ascii
[15:01] <bulldog98> jussi: the export works quite good from what I heard, but I haven’t tried it
[15:01] <jussi> Riddell: I guess its pretty simple, I need the option to be there, its not a choice I have
[15:01] <jussi> do we have a ppa for onewiric thats reasonably stable? 
[15:02] <jussi> I dont mind giving it a go again
[15:02] <Riddell> jussi: why?  what can .doc do that the above formats can't?
[15:05] <jussi> Riddell: It is the required format for me to send to certain people. Not much I can change.
[15:05] <Riddell> jussi: life sucks indeed.  I always make a point of saying that I require standard non-vendor-specific formats but I realise that approach often doesn't work
[15:07] <jussi> Riddell: anyway, do we have a PPA that I can grab it from for oneiric? 
[15:09] <Riddell> jussi: Kubuntu Beta Backports 
[15:11] <jussi> Riddell: thanks, installing now
[15:12] <Riddell> jussi: no doubt you will find lots of problems but I'm curious to know what they are from someone who obviously uses office stuff more than me
[15:13] <Riddell> and someone who is finding problems with our current offering :)
[15:13] <jussi> Riddell: :)
[15:14]  * jussi uses libreoffice on a daily basis
[15:22] <apachelogger> bulldog98, jussi: export of ms office formats does not even work reliably in LO
[15:22] <apachelogger> particularly when loads of weird formatting is in the picture
[15:22] <jussi> apachelogger: works for me 
[15:22] <jussi> (most of the time)
[15:22] <apachelogger> well yes, so does calligra from what I have heared ;)
[15:22] <Riddell> yes it's a problematic thing to do for sure, MS Office crashing after opening a file made by LO isn't nice either although less blame on LO :)
[15:23] <bulldog98> apachelogger: sure which is the reason, why I don’t use that format :P
[15:23] <apachelogger> import is the most questionable thing there ... as ms office has a shitload of features and to properly reverse engineer the crap you'd need an appropriate sample base
[15:23] <Riddell> I've had trouble with LO on accounts, .ods spreadsheet files that won't open in LO but do in calligra
[15:23] <apachelogger> so by any value LO should perform better there
[15:24] <apachelogger> Riddell: that's gambling, from what I know neither completely implements the odf standard
[15:24] <apachelogger> (or add own stuff)
[15:24] <Riddell> apachelogger: yeah but LO should at least open its own .ods files!
[15:25] <apachelogger> Riddell: sure, if LO was trivial software :P
[15:25] <jussi> Riddell: I dont even have an rtf save format? 
[15:25] <Riddell> jussi: dunno that seems surprising but maybe not, #calligra will know
[15:27] <apachelogger> my nano is broken
[15:27] <apachelogger> nano--
[15:28] <Riddell> real geeks use emacs
[15:30] <jussi> Riddell: so apart from the export issue and lack of format painter it seems to do everything I need so far, but for me to switch I need at least that export to .doc/.docx
[15:30]  * jussi tries out the presentations tool
[15:31] <apachelogger> Riddell: yah, and real hackers use vim :P
[15:31] <bulldog98> apachelogger: +1
[15:32] <Riddell> jussi: see I really don't get the need to export to a format that limits your user base like .docx
[15:33] <Riddell> and which is very objectionable from an ethical view
[15:33] <Riddell> but I'd have thought the technical limitations were enough reasons not to use it
[15:34] <jussi> Riddell: I see no reason to not provide an optional plugin for those who need it
[15:36] <Riddell> jussi: except that it's very difficult to code!
[15:36] <jussi> Riddell: but Libreoffice has it.... ?
[15:37] <Riddell> jussi: and they had the large resources of Sun behind them
[15:37] <Riddell> will be interesting to see if they can maintain it without that
[15:37] <jussi> Riddell: its open source, can we not borrow it? 
[15:38] <Riddell> jussi: ha ha no
[15:38] <Riddell> ever tried looking at the libreoffice codebase?  it's not pretty 
[15:39] <Riddell> when openoffice was first made public the koffice response was "great we can just take all the good bits of code" which was nonsense at the time and has proved to be so
[15:39] <jjesse> but Riddell didn't you just argue on your blog for wider adoption, need to support MS Office .docx/.doc for wider addoption
[15:39] <jussi> jjesse: ++
[15:40] <jjesse> its hard to ask for wider adoption and not support what more people use
[15:40] <Riddell> jjesse: I'm an idealist, I take the view that the world should start using standards and stop using crappy vendor-specific formats that maintain a monopoly
[15:40] <jjesse> almost called them wider people :)
[15:40] <CIA-42> [kubuntu-default-settings] Harald Sitter <apachelogger@ubuntu.com> * apachelogger@ubuntu.com-20120321153952-8mxaa91os4hxwfq0 * lib/plymouth/themes/kubuntu-logo/kubuntu-logo.grub make grub background reall really dark
[15:40] <jjesse> that might be fine but more people won't adopt if they can't use what they use for work, etc
[15:40] <Riddell> and as we've been discussing, LO and Calligra do support MS Office formats and have done for years
[15:41] <jussi> does this go both ways? http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/
[15:41] <Riddell> likewise MS Office support OpenDocument format, this debate should not be relevant any time this decade
[15:44] <CIA-42> [kubuntu-dev-tools] Harald Sitter <apachelogger@ubuntu.com> * apachelogger@ubuntu.com-20120321154426-zg51xal2un1mz44a * (bin/plymouth-rgb-normalizer debian/changelog) Add plymouth-rgb-normalizer to normalize 0-255 to plymouth 0.0-1.0 ranges
[15:45] <CIA-42> [kubuntu-dev-tools] Harald Sitter <apachelogger@ubuntu.com> * apachelogger@ubuntu.com-20120321154552-qaxm0sunj556js00 * (10 files in 4 dirs) Added klearppa to clear out the packages in a PPA
[15:46] <jussi> Riddell: small annoyance, lack of borders on the slide in stage's document sidebar
[15:46] <CIA-42> [kubuntu-default-settings] Harald Sitter <apachelogger@ubuntu.com> * apachelogger@ubuntu.com-20120321154614-wjehieun8ya7pdz1 * lib/plymouth/themes/kubuntu-logo/plymouth-rgb-normalizer.rb moved rgb normalizer to kubuntu-dev-tools
[15:49] <apachelogger> can someone please run du -h /lib/plymouth/themes/kubuntu-logo
[15:49] <bulldog98> apachelogger: 840K
[15:50] <jussi> jussi@squirrel:~$ du -h /lib/plymouth/themes/kubuntu-logo
[15:50] <jussi> 84K     /lib/plymouth/themes/kubuntu-logo
[15:50] <apachelogger> jussi: thx
[15:50] <apachelogger> so with the new stuff it is 10 times bigger ^^
[15:50] <jussi> apachelogger: thats oneiric
[15:50] <apachelogger> ^ the art of deduction
[15:56] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: 844K for me
[15:57] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: stop bloating my install!
[15:58] <apachelogger> go sip a cuppa
[15:58] <shadeslayer> did that an hour ago
[15:58] <apachelogger> clearly didn't help
[15:58] <shadeslayer> no more tea for me or I get supercharged and don't sleep properly
[15:59] <apachelogger> sleep is for children
[16:00] <shadeslayer> no, sleep is for when you have to go to uni the next day
[16:01] <tsdgeos> shadeslayer: sleep is what you do at uni ;-)
[16:01] <shadeslayer> that's what I thought as well, apparently the professors don't like that and refuse to give you attendance
[16:01] <apachelogger> oh, that is also a very well made point
[16:01]  * apachelogger feels sleepy actually
[16:01] <apachelogger> we are talking about copyright
[16:02] <apachelogger> friends! what's with the udd branches alread?
[16:02] <apachelogger> Riddell: I do not get the plymouth branch at all
[16:02] <apachelogger> it has debian/patches *and* in-source changes
[16:02] <apachelogger> who does the educated uddd work with that?
[16:03] <Riddell> apachelogger: that sounds like a mess up by someone
[16:03] <apachelogger> slangasek is to blame
[16:03] <apachelogger> anywho, I don't need the patches anyway
[16:03] <apachelogger> was just wondering, never seen that
[16:04] <apachelogger> Oo
[16:04] <apachelogger> not even bzr-buildpackage can handle that
[16:04] <Riddell> it does suggest that udd branches might not be a great way to work
[16:05] <Riddell> but my idea of changing udd to be debian/ branch only imports does not have much traction
[16:05] <apachelogger> too bad
[16:22] <ScottK> shadeslayer: OK.  I'd try it again.  Maybe it was a heisenbug.
[16:23]  * shadeslayer didn't know that term 
[16:23] <apachelogger> u fail
[16:23] <shadeslayer> ...
[16:31] <Riddell> hi mgraesslin 
[16:31] <mgraesslin> hi Riddell
[16:31] <Riddell> mgraesslin: that kmenueditor branch you have seems to be missing some .ui files
[16:32] <shadeslayer> ScottK: heh, still gets stuck
[16:32] <mgraesslin> Riddell: possible
[16:32] <ScottK> No idea.  Try to build something smaller and see if it's your pbuilder setup somehow.
[16:32] <shadeslayer> uh, I just try to login to it
[16:32] <ScottK> That's how I built digikam on that same box the other day.
[16:32] <mgraesslin> Riddell: I will work on it tomorrow and on Friday, so best ignore it till then
[16:32] <ScottK> OK.
[16:33] <shadeslayer> ScottK: http://paste.kde.org/444134/
[16:33] <shadeslayer> and then nothing, just gets stuck
[16:33] <mgraesslin> Riddell: and concerning your blog post: yes kubuntu needs a better name :-)
[16:33] <Riddell> mgraesslin: I'd use kwin but I hear that's taken :)
[16:34] <shadeslayer> I'll make a new one, maybe somethig went wrong
[16:34] <mgraesslin> Riddell: just find a better name for kwin then :-)
[16:34] <tsdgeos> kde-window-manager
[16:34] <tsdgeos> :D
[16:34] <mgraesslin> no, that's quite bad
[16:35] <shadeslayer> kooboon2 :D
[16:35] <yofel> kwinman
[16:37] <ScottK> shadeslayer: You're logged in, but have no shell.
[16:37] <shadeslayer> whut
[16:37] <shadeslayer> I don't understand how is that even possible :S
[16:38] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Look at /home/hooks/C10shell
[16:38] <ScottK> Log in with that hook.
[16:38] <shadeslayer> okie
[16:41] <Peace-> but Riddell i was reading your post ... you want release only kde software
[16:41] <Peace-> this is utopia
[16:42] <Peace-> and the result is : kubuntu can't compete with ubuntu
[16:42] <Peace-> ubuntu uses qt and gtk 
[16:42] <Riddell> yes, I'm an idealist like that
[16:42] <Riddell> fortunately qt is all we need :)
[16:43] <Peace-> nope
[16:43] <Peace-> ying yang
[16:43] <Peace-> middle is the true path
[16:43] <Riddell> that's why we need to be part of the ubuntu project
[16:43] <Riddell> lots of gtk in the archives if that's what does it for you
[16:44] <Peace-> i am not a normal user Riddell
[16:44] <tsimpson> I think even Canonical realise that Qt just has the superior API
[16:44] <Peace-> the normal user wants somethign that works
[16:44] <shadeslayer> Peace-: that's implying that power users want something that's broken
[16:45] <Peace-> just only changin rekonq with chromium would be fine
[16:45] <Peace-> shadeslayer: nope
[16:45] <Peace-> shadeslayer: for example i am using beta software because i know  it has bugs
[16:45] <Peace-> and i am ok with that 
[16:46] <Peace-> and i know where i can fidn a solution
[16:46] <Peace-> so it not broken 
[16:46] <Peace-> it's just fun 
[16:47] <tsimpson> bugs _are_ things that are broken
[16:47] <tsimpson> things that don't work properly, things that don't do what they're expected to do, things that don't do things well
[16:47] <Peace-> well krita crashes when you does ctl z 3 time 
[16:48] <tsdgeos> that's a bug
[16:48] <tsdgeos> all software has bugs
[16:48] <tsdgeos> Peace-: if you report it i'm even guessing it's a fairly easy one to fix
[16:48] <tsimpson> not all software
[16:48] <tsdgeos> tsimpson: all software
[16:48] <Peace-> tsimpson: i am often on krita channel
[16:49] <Peace-> well even firefox has bugs 
[16:49] <Peace-> but less than rekonq
[16:49] <tsimpson> not every single program ever developed has bugs
[16:49] <yofel> Peace-: I believe we still ship the firefox installer?
[16:49] <tsimpson> the larger the code-base, and more complex the program, then yes. you're more likely to have bugs. but not _all_ software
[16:49] <Peace-> yofel: it's always a pain
[16:49] <tsdgeos> tsimpson: are you a developer?
[16:50] <Peace-> the point is releasing what works better
[16:50] <tsimpson> I develop lots of things, so yeah
[16:50] <apachelogger> what's the topic?
[16:50] <Peace-> browser is the most important stuff 
[16:50] <tsdgeos> tsimpson: i can't believe you are defending that there is software out there without bugs :D
[16:50] <yofel> apachelogger: whether software has bugs
[16:51] <Peace-> failing on browser = failing distro
[16:51] <apachelogger> Peace-: kubuntu does not compete with ubuntu, we do not target OEM deployments
[16:51] <tsimpson> tsdgeos: no, I'm saying that not every single piece of software in the universe has bugs
[16:51] <tsimpson> int main() { return 0; } // no bugs there
[16:51] <tsimpson> there, I'm a genius
[16:51] <apachelogger> ehm
[16:51] <apachelogger> that is wrong
[16:51] <tsdgeos> see
[16:51] <apachelogger> it implies that the software that uses the software has no bugs
[16:51] <yofel> tsimpson: I believe that depends on the compiler you're using :D
[16:51] <tsdgeos> you missed two parameters in main
[16:51] <apachelogger> or the implementation of the C standard for that matter
[16:52] <apachelogger> in our case the eglibc
[16:52] <yofel> tsdgeos: well, gcc would compile that fine though
[16:52] <tsimpson> well, I can write an application in assembly that doesn't have a main(), and just exits with 0
[16:52] <apachelogger> the simplest of all programs still can have bugs as even that software would depend on the hardware doing what it is supposed to
[16:52] <tsimpson> (assuming the kernel is not broken ;)
[16:53] <yofel> if the hardware isn't defined to be correct, we don't even have to discuss this...
[16:53] <tsimpson> my point is that "bugs" are not something that you should just expect are a fact of life
[16:53] <apachelogger> that is to say, the more aggregated code is used in a program the more likely it has more bugs
[16:54] <apachelogger> tsimpson: well, it is for us as we build highly complicated systems
[16:55] <tsimpson> apachelogger: I mean more from an ideological point of view, not necessarily a practical point of view
[16:55] <apachelogger> well, the target of any developer is to have 0 bugs
[16:56] <apachelogger> that is however not very practical for anything ^^
[16:58] <apachelogger> Riddell: new plymouth packages moving towards kubuntu-experimental for precise
[16:58] <apachelogger> everyone please be testing
[16:59] <yofel> \o/
[16:59] <apachelogger> also kubuntu-text this time
[16:59] <Riddell> apachelogger: beta 2 freeze tomorrow afternoon, do you expect to make that?
[17:00] <shadeslayer> ahhhh
[17:00] <apachelogger> Riddell: probably not
[17:00] <shadeslayer> ScottK: ok figured it out
[17:00] <apachelogger> Riddell: that way we can also keep it fresh for release ;)
[17:00] <Riddell> apachelogger: still things to fix?
[17:00] <shadeslayer> it wasn't stuck, it just doesn't show the shebang and the host
[17:00] <apachelogger> Riddell: not really, but I'd rather have it tested
[17:00] <apachelogger> codewise everything should be fine
[17:01] <apachelogger> plus we need to figure out how to push the proper wallpaper into kdm and we need to get ksplash-qml on the CD
[17:01] <apachelogger> or someone converts the splash from qml to the ksplashx thing ^^
[17:02] <yofel> ksplashqml is already in kde-workspace-bin, so on CD
[17:02] <apachelogger> groovy
[17:03] <yofel> only the example QML theme isn't
[17:03] <apachelogger> ah, perfect
[17:05] <Riddell> apachelogger: so what do we need to test?  k-d-s and plymouth once they're compiled?
[17:05] <apachelogger> aye
[17:05] <apachelogger> grub should be readable now
[17:05] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: yay
[17:06] <apachelogger> also that stuff needs major refactoring, I have no idea where the grub frontend colors are from, but they seem to be pulled from somewhere implicitly
[17:06] <yofel> the wallpaper setting is a one line thing in the theme which sets the wallpaper used.
[17:06] <apachelogger> or my system is silly
[17:06] <shadeslayer> ScottK: https://launchpad.net/~rohangarg/+archive/experimental/+files/kile_2.1.0-1ubuntu2~ppa1.dsc << Kile now recommends texlive-latex-extra
[17:06] <apachelogger> yofel: that implies the wallpaper is a kde wallpaper package :P
[17:06] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Ask me tomorrow on #ubuntu-motu.
[17:06] <apachelogger> with desktop file and all that
[17:06] <shadeslayer> sure
[17:06] <yofel> apachelogger: right
[17:07] <yofel> now the question is whether we switch out the whole default theme with the one from svn, or add it besides ariya
[17:08] <yofel> I doubt we have enough space for both though
[17:10] <apachelogger> why? we only have one file
[17:10] <apachelogger> of 700k
[17:10] <yofel> oh, right
[17:20] <Peace-> apachelogger: if kubuntu can't compete with ubuntu or other distro what is the purpuse of this distro fun?
[17:20] <Riddell> we do compete with ubuntu desktop (and cooperate too)
[17:20] <Riddell> ScottK: you get a name drop by jono in the ubuntu-uk podcast!
[17:21] <Riddell> apachelogger: his point was we don't compete with canonical's needs because they do OEM
[17:21] <ScottK> Ruh. Roh.
[17:23] <ScottK> shadeslayer: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/soqt/1.5.0-2 might be worthwhile to work on now that you have access to arm box.
[17:23] <shadeslayer> awesome
[17:24] <shadeslayer> ScottK: I'm done for stuff this week, I'll fit it in for next week
[17:24] <ScottK> OK
[17:24]  * shadeslayer has to finish writing tests
[17:24] <Peace-> Riddell: btw kde media center can be replaced by unity 2d tv 
[17:24] <Peace-> it's always qt no?
[17:24] <shadeslayer> ^ I'm looking to try p-m-c once I get my raspberry pi :D
[17:25] <Riddell> Peace-: it's not KDE
[17:27] <Riddell> shadeslayer: this is what you've been using? http://www.stgraber.org/2012/02/03/ever-wanted-an-armel-or-armhf-container-on-an-x86-machine-its-now-possible-with-lxc-in-ubuntu-precise/
[17:27] <shadeslayer> nope
[17:28] <shadeslayer> Riddell: pbuilder-dist precise armel create : Works only on sid
[17:28] <Riddell> shadeslayer: ah hah.  this one of stgraber's seems worth looking into
[17:28] <shadeslayer> why not just fix pbuilder-dist ?
[17:28] <shadeslayer> isnt' that easier
[17:28] <Riddell> three copy and paste commands is easier than "fix" :)
[17:28] <shadeslayer> or rather, why not fix a familiar tool rather than introduce a new one ? :D
[17:29] <Riddell> don't ask me that's not my blog
[17:29] <shadeslayer> :P
[17:29] <shadeslayer> well ... pbuilder-dist doesn't do armhf yet
[17:33] <shadeslayer> left a comment :D
[17:35] <delight> I got kmix crashing a lot in 12.04  ... i think it came with the upgrades to kde 4.8.1 .. as with the beta1 of precise i didn't experience those frequently crashes ...
[17:35] <delight> do others have the same problem ?
[17:36] <yofel> the only way I got kmix to crash recently (yesterday) was by killing pulseaudio. Otherwise it works fine
[17:37] <delight> yofel: thnx for the feedback 
[17:38] <delight> I'll have to invest some more into it
[17:38] <yofel> delight: if you get a crash please file a bug with drkonqi
[17:38] <delight> investigate
[17:39] <delight> drkonqi is not coming up after kmix crash ... do i need to install some additional package ?
[17:41] <yofel> delight: how do you know that it crashed then?
[17:41] <delight> yofel: ok ... got it ... that dialog with the option to restart kmix is drkonqi ... my bad :-D
[17:42] <delight> never looked at whats its called :-D
[17:42] <yofel> ah, ok :)
[17:49] <Riddell> hi littlegirl 
[17:52] <littlegirl> Riddell: Hey there. (:
[17:53] <Riddell> littlegirl: welcome to the Kubuntu contributor community :)
[17:54] <littlegirl> Riddell: Thanks - I wish I hadn't arrived at such a hectic time with that deadline looming. (:
[17:54] <Riddell> we always have deadlines
[17:54] <Riddell> if we didn't we'd be debian :)
[17:55] <littlegirl> Riddell: I know I'm doing something wrong with Bazaar because my pushes seem to be trying to push every commit I've ever made rather than just the latest one. Can I past my steps into Pastebin and have you look at them and tell me which one could be causing that and how to fix it?
[17:55] <littlegirl> LOL
[17:55] <yofel> well, bzr push will push all differences between the original branch and yours - meaning all commits
[17:55] <yofel> do you want something else?
[17:56] <yofel> *all your commits
[17:56] <littlegirl> I think so. I would like to push just my most current commit since each time I push I propose the push for merging, and once they're accepted, they shouldn't be pushed again, right?
[17:56]  * littlegirl is not a Bazaar user, but an SVN user. (:
[17:57] <Riddell> that's fine
[17:57] <Riddell> if they're accepted elsewhere they're all good
[17:57] <littlegirl> Okay. (:
[17:57] <Riddell> you can also merge from the main branch to get things more up to date
[17:58] <littlegirl> I have no idea what that means. (:
[17:58] <Riddell> littlegirl: pastebin   bzr info
[18:00] <littlegirl> http://paste.ubuntu.com/893971/
[18:01] <littlegirl> I should probably have numbered them. (:
[18:01] <Riddell> littlegirl: that's not bzr info
[18:01] <littlegirl> Oh, you want me to do bzr info and paste the result into pastebin?
[18:01] <Riddell> yep
[18:02] <Riddell> also paste.kde.org >> paste.ubuntu.com
[18:03] <littlegirl> http://paste.ubuntu.com/893977/
[18:03] <littlegirl> What does that do?
[18:04] <littlegirl> paste.kde.org: command not found
[18:04] <Riddell> tell me where your repository thinks it is in relation to the others
[18:05] <Riddell> it's a website not a command :)
[18:05] <littlegirl> That's the second paste above: http://paste.ubuntu.com/893977/ 
[18:05] <Riddell> yep
[18:05] <Riddell> so now, what do you want to do?
[18:05] <Riddell> bzr diff  does that show committed stuff?
[18:06] <Riddell> bzr push  will send it all to lp:~littlergirl/kubuntu-docs/basics
[18:06] <Riddell> all the commits so far
[18:06] <littlegirl> I'm not sure. I make all the changes to a document and then do one commit to my local working copy that covers all those changes to the one document. Next I push to the server and propose the push for merging. Is that how it ought to be done?
[18:07] <Riddell> there is no ought, whatever makes it easieest for you and the reviewer
[18:07] <Riddell> but that seems a sensible way yes
[18:07] <Riddell> so what's the problem?
[18:08] <littlegirl> All of that seems to go smoothly at my end, but the email I get back from Launchpad seems to contain every commit I ever did rather than just the most recent one, and the person who reviews my proposals for merging is becoming confused because of duplicates.
[18:08] <Riddell> yes it will contain all the commits since you did your initial bzr branch
[18:08] <littlegirl> I'm brand new to Bazaar and DocBook, so I'm just following the steps I was given. I was hoping someone could look them over and tell me which of them are wrong and what changes I should make to them. (:
[18:09] <littlegirl> Riddell: Is that expected?
[18:09] <Riddell> if you want to isolate some changes you can do a new bzr branch lp:kubuntu-docs  and do separate changes there
[18:09] <Riddell> you could also do a new  bzr branch lp:~littlergirl/kubuntu-docs/basics  that'll give you a new branch starting on the state of your basics branch  
[18:09] <littlegirl> Riddell: Is that how pushes are usually done? Doing a new bzr branch before doing a push?
[18:10] <Riddell> when you commit to that and ask for a merge request you can ask for it relative to the basics branch
[18:10] <Riddell> bzr is infinitely flexible, you can do whatever you like
[18:10] <Riddell> you can also do it svn style with just  bzr co lp:~littlergirl/kubuntu-docs/basics
[18:10] <littlegirl> This is the command I was given, and the one I used: bzr branch lp:kubuntu-docs
[18:10] <Riddell> then bzr commit sends it back to lp:~littlergirl/kubuntu-docs/basics
[18:10] <littlegirl> Do I just do that one each time to start with a fresh branch?
[18:11] <Riddell> littlegirl: yes that's keep everything nice and separate
[18:11] <littlegirl> Riddell: Oh, thank you! That should make life easier for whoever has to review what I submit. (:
[18:12] <Riddell> littlegirl: who has been reviewing your stuff?
[18:12] <jjesse> me
[18:12] <littlegirl> Riddell: jjesse
[18:12]  * littlegirl waves at jjesse
[18:12] <jjesse> sorry been away
[18:13] <littlegirl> That's okay. I just hope I'm not causing extra work at a time where you guys must be frantic.
[18:13] <Riddell> he's a nice guy is that jjesse 
[18:13] <jjesse> no it isn't
[18:13] <littlegirl> LOL
[18:13] <jjesse> not extra delay :)
[18:13] <littlegirl> I have a few other questions. (:
[18:13] <jjesse> keep asking
[18:13] <littlegirl> Which of these ways of doing a plain link is correct: http://paste.ubuntu.com/894004/
[18:14] <littlegirl> The text link is correct, because I see that one used all over the place in the docs. (:
[18:14] <Riddell> why don't you just use that then?
[18:15] <littlegirl> Riddell: To save a few bytes in a large document, like the development.xml doc that I recently did, for instance. (:
[18:15] <Riddell> a few bytes don't matter
[18:16] <littlegirl> Also, is there a list of entities used in Kubuntu docs, and if so, where is it?
[18:16] <jjesse> yes there 
[18:16] <jjesse> there is a list of entities
[18:16] <jjesse> sorry i'm slow to respond its work hours for me
[18:16] <jjesse> look in /libs i think
[18:16] <littlegirl> Oh! Sorry to disturb you while at work!
[18:16] <jjesse> i think its kde- something in that file
[18:17] <jjesse> kde-menus-c.ent
[18:17] <Riddell> littlegirl: if you don't get an answer to a technical question like that in here I think there is #ubuntu-doc as well
[18:17] <jjesse> yes #ubuntu-docs is a great place
[18:17] <jjesse> but Riddell  is a BZR expert compared to me :)
[18:17] <jjesse> and also global.ent
[18:17] <jjesse> both in /libs/
[18:18] <littlegirl> Perfect - thanks!
[18:19] <littlegirl> jjesse, would it be easier for you if I do  bzr branch lp:kubuntu-docs each time I do a push so that you only get offered one document to look over?
[18:19] <jjesse> umm not i know of
[18:19] <Riddell> littlegirl: that would seem easist to me
[18:20] <littlegirl> Riddell: I'll do it. It sounds like the least amount of work over all. (:
[18:22] <littlegirl> Next question: There are work items for documents that don't exist here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs/+spec/desktop-p-kubuntu-docs-precise like tips, for instance. Will someone be creating those?
[18:22] <jjesse> well hopefully
[18:23] <jjesse> unless you want to :)
[18:23] <littlegirl> jjessee: Heh, I don't even know what you would want in them. (:
[18:23] <jjesse> unfortunately there hasn't been much doc work this cycle
[18:23] <Riddell> littlegirl: I guess those are what Darkwing was thinking when he wrote those work items
[18:23] <jjesse> as so far it has only been me doing work as i haven't seen Darkwing around much
[18:24] <Riddell> littlegirl: if you can get hold of him to find what he was planning in a tips document you can decide if it's a good idea of no and start it (or not)
[18:24] <littlegirl> jjesse: No, and it's very sad. The docs are really out of date for the release, and it doesn't look like there is time to get them fixed up, which I assume means they will be added in their current condition.
[18:24] <Riddell> littlegirl: we can do updates after release
[18:24] <jjesse> littlegirl, almost correct
[18:24] <Riddell> littlegirl: and I'd really like them to be available on the web somewhere
[18:24] <jjesse> littlegirl, we would love to have people work on them but like I said I haven't seen Darkwing around who was going to head things up
[18:24] <littlegirl> Riddell: I'll ask him when I hear back from him. So far my email may have gotten snagged up in his spam filter. (:
[18:25] <littlegirl> Oh, thank goodness updates can be done. What a relief!
[18:25] <littlegirl> What is the chain of command for Kubuntu documentation?
[18:25]  * littlegirl doesn't want to step on any toes.
[18:25] <jjesse> there is no real chain of command
[18:26] <jjesse> all community
[18:26] <jjesse> and most of the time it is just Darkwing and myself
[18:26] <jjesse> i think those are the only 2 people who have committed recently
[18:26] <littlegirl> Ah, okay. (:
[18:26] <littlegirl> Can I make some suggestions?
[18:26] <jjesse> nixternal used to help w/ docs but he has stepped away from ubuntu/kubuntu development work
[18:26] <jjesse> yeah can we continue this over email or something, heading back to work ;0
[18:27] <jjesse> jjesse@gmail.com
[18:27] <littlegirl> Ah, I had been given his name initially, but had never bumped into him online. (:
[18:27] <littlegirl> jjesse: Okay, thanks for taking time out to chat in here! (:
[18:27] <jjesse> np
[18:27] <Riddell> littlegirl: plunge in, as we say :)
[18:28] <littlegirl> Riddell: I've been, but tentatively, because I'm unsure of a few things. (:
[18:29] <littlegirl> Riddell: I know the deadline is the 22nd, but since there can be updates, can commits and pushes still be done on or after the 22nd as before, and changes made to the https://blueprints.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs/+spec/desktop-p-kubuntu-docs-precise page, or should I wait until a certain date to begin more work on the docs after the freeze?
[18:30] <Peace-> Riddell: changin name to the distro will not lead somewhere , what users want it's software that works without to do manually 
[18:30] <Peace-> or why kubuntu users should use kubuntu 
[18:30] <Peace-> they could use arch for example
[18:30] <Peace-> for me it's a pain in the ass btw
[18:31] <Peace-> xD
[18:31] <Riddell> littlegirl: no need to wait
[18:31] <Riddell> Peace-: we're in #kubuntu-offtopic for random chat
[18:31] <littlegirl> Riddell: Okay, thanks. (:
[18:37] <shadeslayer> Riddell: my build finished just fine thanks!
[18:37] <shadeslayer> took about 5-6 hours @_@
[18:41] <Riddell> yay!
[18:50]  * Riddell out
[18:56]  * koolhead17 finds Riddell still in :P