[00:02] <len_> knome, 520 pix ends up too much. The slideshow test is not valid for what really happens... nother bug.
[00:03] <knome> len_, fsst.
[00:03] <knome> i'm not sure if i'm willing to file another UIFe for that
[00:03] <len_> At least with 520, it was obvious that there was something going on below as I could see the top half of the text.
[00:03] <knome> okay
[00:03] <knome> that worksforme for P
[00:03] <knome> it's so much easier to fix this for Q
[00:04] <len_> The scroll bars where not there for all the slides.
[00:04] <knome> okay, weird
[00:04] <knome> well, not really
[00:05] <knome> but that shouldn't happen at all
[00:05] <len_> Yeah, my Yf needed some time with me and then the install was over so I didn't look at it real well.
[00:05] <len_> I have just dropped ubuntudesktop on a stick and will see what that does
[00:05] <astraljava> Yf? You have a Yeti-friend?
[00:06] <len_> Says the Y sound the f Yf = wife
[00:06] <knome> omg
[00:06] <knome> nerdspeadk
[00:06] <knome> -d
[00:06] <len_> Old ham speak I think
[00:06] <knome> at least i didn't typo that as nerdspeakd, a deamon for that would be scary
[00:08] <knome> hmph.
[00:08] <len_> I will try to get some screen shots during install this time... and do a second US install as well.
[00:08] <knome> let's say i'll think of fixing that after beta2.
[00:09] <knome> it's not critical, so i might just leave it
[00:09] <len_> It is probably ok for the bootmenu install because I don't think there is a top panel getting in the way.
[00:10] <knome> bootmenu? :)
[00:10] <knome> right, you mean the *actual* installation?
[00:10] <len_> Yeah do thingy that says test without installing or install.
[00:11] <knome> right
[00:11] <len_> I have been installing from live session... as I would think most people would do that... otherwise why have live DVD?
[00:11] <knome> len_, i don't think that's either-or
[00:12] <knome> somebody might use the live dvd to actually work on things
[00:12] <knome> but that works for the person just wanting to install too
[00:12] <knome> and with live, you can check if your hardware works
[00:13] <len_> Yup once you up live and go "ok I like this" it makes sense to just install rather than reboot to install. is what I meant... I think
[00:14] <knome> yeah.
[00:14] <knome> but since ubuntu studio only provides one method, there's no alternative. so those just wanting to install will use the same build too
[00:15] <knome> no good reason to provide something else for that, it would just mean more work :)
[00:15] <astraljava> Sure, but that'd be the first-time trial use-case only. I wouldn't think anyone wanting to boot to a live session just to install on possibly another machine, or re-install, or whatever.
[00:16] <knome> yup
[00:16] <astraljava> ...which is why I'm testing the straight-to-install use-case, mostly.
[00:16] <knome> otoh, the first-time trial is probably the time you want to look at the slideshow, too
[00:19] <astraljava> len_: Looks like it's getting past all ubiquity hangs, now. Do we have a winner on our hands?
[00:19] <astraljava> knome: Sure.
[00:21] <knome> i will rest a few nights well before filing any more Fe's :)
[00:22] <knome> bleh.
[00:22]  * knome will take backups
[00:23] <astraljava> I won't give any.
[00:23] <astraljava> *blink* *blink*
[00:23] <knome> awwhm :P
[00:23] <astraljava> Yeah, it boots! But it looks weird.
[00:23] <knome> astraljava, you looking at a mirror?
[00:24] <astraljava> len_: You have battled the UI with ScottL, right? Can you move on those issues?
[00:24] <astraljava> knome: I don't have boots.
[00:24] <knome> but you probably can boot
[00:24] <knome> and, you just agreed you look weird. gotcha.
[00:24] <astraljava> ...yo 4$$, for sure.
[00:24] <knome> well that's not too hard
[00:25] <knome> there's plenty of area to land the kick
[00:25]  * astraljava tiptoes around the subject, but decides to leave it untouched.
[00:26] <astraljava> Take that as you wish.
[00:26] <knome> probably best
[00:26] <astraljava> Ok, I think that'll do for this session. I'm heading for some zzz's. Catch ya later.
[00:26] <ScottL> astraljava, i'm not sure i understand what you are asking?
[00:26] <knome> good night!
[00:27] <knome> going to file one more RT ticket today...
[00:27] <ScottL> i'm burning an image now that i've zsync'd
[00:27] <ScottL> then i'm going down my checklist of things that were supposed to be "fixed"
[00:28] <astraljava> ScottL: For instance, the app menu icon: http://astraljava.kapsi.fi/us_20120321.png
[00:29] <knome> that's awesome
[00:29] <knome> the ubuntu studio has got some great momentum behind that logo change
[00:29] <knome> (:
[00:29] <astraljava> knome: Remember, I know where you live.
[00:29] <knome> hah
[00:30] <astraljava> ScottL: Oh, some other issues seem to have disappeared by the time of taking that screen shot, nevermind, that icon thingie is the only one I spot, now.
[00:30] <astraljava> But yeah, the zzz's.
[00:30] <knome> nighty night
[00:34] <ScottL> astraljava, i'm guessing that the default-settings weren't updated yet
[00:34] <ScottL> or they were and i forgot to 'bzr add' the image?  i dont' think so, i think i just replaced it
[00:38]  * knome is available, if you need help with transparent PNGs ;)
[00:40] <ScottL> knome, i don't think so, i made the transparent PNG , built, and tested it
[00:41] <ScottL> strange thing is that i'm not seeing my push to the -default-settings package
[00:41] <knome> hmm
[00:41] <ScottL> wait, maybe i was looking under 'ubuntu'
[00:41] <ScottL> hold on
[00:41] <knome> heh
[00:42] <ScottL> yeah, yeah...i kept looking at the rev number and thinking that wasn't right ;)
[00:43] <ScottL> okay, it's there (including janne's changes), just hasn't been updated
[00:43] <knome> yup
[00:43] <knome> i think i need to hit the bed
[00:43] <knome> nothing to do any more
[00:44] <knome> well, at least nothing to do today ;)
[00:44] <ScottL> goodnight knome 
[00:45] <knome> good night, or day, to you too scott
[03:42] <ScottL> micahg, i touched -default-settings, -look, and -lightdm-theme packages
[03:43] <ScottL> micahg, this is basically it for what i'm planning to do now
[03:43] <ScottL> i don't expect to touch anything again this cycle unless there is something broken
[03:43] <len-nb> Here are some screen shots of the slide show during install. http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/slideSSs.html
[03:44] <len-nb> ScottL ^^^ FYI
[03:57] <ScottL> oh micahg , i mispoke, i wanted to update the panel layout, which i'll get tomorrow
[04:00] <micahg> ScottL: ok, freeze is at 21:00 UTC
[04:15] <ScottL> that is in 17 hours +/-
[04:15] <micahg> right
[04:17] <holstein> w0w
[04:17] <holstein> thats exciting!
[04:53] <len-nb> This is not for this cycle... but I would be interested in what people think: http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/workflow.html
[04:55] <micahg> new libav coming, I'm updating the -extra package as well (BTW, extra for the most part will go away in 12.10)
[05:06] <len-nb> micahg, extra will go away means "won't be available" or folded in to the normal package?
[05:06] <micahg> folded in
[05:06] <micahg> already in Debian experimental
[05:06] <len-nb> Good
[08:29] <ttoine> Hi
[12:12] <ScottL> is it normal to get up 1.58 hours earlier than i would (or want) just to get some coding done?
[12:12] <ScottL> micahg, i've updated the -default-settings package one more time for panel tweaks
[12:13] <ScottL> i couldn't get some of the settings to work as i had wanted (like not raising window when just scrolling on it), but practically everything else was done
[12:15] <knome> ScottL, does 1.58 mean 1h 58mins or 1h, 35mins and a few seconds?
[12:15] <knome> sorry, 1h, 34mins, ...
[12:27] <ScottL> aye, 1 hour and 34 minutes
[12:28] <ScottL> i normally get up at 07:00 on tuesdays and thrusday because i get the daughter up and on the bus and take my youngest son to daycare
[12:28] <ScottL> i set the alarm for 06:00 thinking that one hour would be enough
[12:28] <ScottL> but i woke up somewhere before 5:30, starting thinking about what i needed to do, and couldn't go back to sleep
[12:28] <ScottL> i'm glad i did because i would not have had enough time with just 1 hour
[12:34] <knome> heh
[12:34]  * knome is working on http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/precise_countdown/draft-2.png
[13:11] <len_> knome ping
[13:12] <knome> len_, pong
[13:12] <len_> knome re scroll bars in install slides... I had them show up last night but by the time I could get the menu open to get a screen shot they where gone
[13:13] <knome> len_, aha :)
[13:13] <len_> I think they fixed it by looking for them every time the progress area updates and getting rid of them
[13:13] <knome> right
[13:14] <knome> i see no change in code but - fine :)
[13:14] <len_> Anyway knome, I don't know if you saw them or not, but there are some screen shot of the slide show in an email on our list or in the back scroll on irc.
[13:15] <knome> i'll look
[13:15] <len_> Whenever, I gotta eat.
[13:16] <knome> that looks good
[13:16] <knome> or, that looks as it should :)
[13:16] <knome> thanks, and bon appetit
[13:56] <ttoine> hi
[13:58] <scott-work> hi ttoine :)
[13:59] <ttoine> scott-work, what are the news ?
[14:00] <scott-work> ttoine: did my final push for this cycle, except for fixing bugs now
[14:00] <ttoine> ok
[14:00] <ttoine> and what about the kernel ?
[14:00] <scott-work> we didn't really hit the goal that i had wanted, but we did accomplish a lot of stuff :)
[14:00] <scott-work> ttoine: TheMuso acknowledged the problem and was fixing it
[14:05] <ttoine> scott-work, maybe you should write somewhere the goals of your long plan ;-)
[14:06] <ttoine> scott-work, I just see that the -lowlatency kernel is in the updates. So it will be my haste of the afternoon to update and test !
[14:07] <scott-work> ttoine: i had meant to have already documented the long plan and publish it for comments/suggestions
[14:07] <scott-work> but i've been pretty busy during this cycle
[14:07] <scott-work> but now that it's the tail end i should have more time to do this
[14:07] <ttoine> ok. so maybe you will have more time after release ?
[14:08] <scott-work> i still have some stuff to do (like the website, knome ) but i really have more time now :)
[14:08] <ttoine> scott-work, is it something that we can discuss, or you meant it fixed ?
[14:08] <scott-work> ttoine:  we can absolutely discuss it
[14:09] <ttoine> great to know it ;-)
[14:09] <scott-work> we have discussed a general direction as a group and we decided that focusing the distro to new users to linux provides the biggest area of opportunity to...
[14:09] <scott-work> 1. fill a need
[14:10] <scott-work> 2. help make people aware of and use linux (who are not already)
[14:10] <scott-work> this doesn't mean we can't provide robust or powerful applications, however
[14:10] <scott-work> we will just give extra attention to documentation and simplifying process to make everything as accessible as possible
[14:11] <scott-work> i think a mission statement would be helpful to identifying and articulating our goal
[14:13] <ttoine> scott-work, this morning I was at a meeting about teaching and producing multimedia with free software, and people were greatly impressed that we can actually do good stuff with quite simple apps, stability and old laptops
[14:14] <ttoine> I was pleased to use xfce, too, this morning.
[14:15] <ttoine> I hope that this will give me some work
[14:16] <scott-work> that is awesome, ttoine  :)
[14:16] <scott-work> i hope we can continue to provide you the necessary support
[14:16]  * scott-work is going to reboot work (windows) computer
[14:20] <ttoine> scott-work, this release of ubuntu studio may be a definitive "foot ahead" for people wanting to show, teach and use free software as an alternative of OS X
[14:23] <ailo> ttoine: I'm just about to try the latest -lowlatency myself. It has the right config as expected, so it should perform well
[14:31] <ttoine> great to know that
[14:31] <ttoine> I am updating my workstation at the moment
[14:36] <scott-work> ttoine: i am hoping so, many things needed maintenance because parts were falling apart
[14:37] <ttoine> scott-work, yes, it is true. Maybe the only point that would make windows and os x users have a negative point of vue at the first time will be the look and feel of xfce, wich is not really "up to date"
[14:38] <scott-work> ttoine: why do you say xfce is not up to date?
[14:38] <ttoine> ailo, what is your first impression ?
[14:39] <scott-work> i think functionaly (i.e.  managing windows, using menus, etc) is comparable to windows (the OS)
[14:39] <ailo> ttoine: It's fine for fine
[14:39] <scott-work> perhaps the lack of transparent window dressings might cause some to think less of xfce, but it can be done too at a possible cost to performance
[14:40] <ttoine> scott-work, xfce is not animated, etc... like os X, for example. and the pannel at the top may be confuse the windows users. I just speak in general term, not telling that xfce is old in the design point of vue
[14:40] <scott-work> ttoine: your feedback is quite welcome and appreciated, btw
[14:41] <scott-work> i wish we could get other feedback as well
[14:41] <ailo> XFCE is probably the best choice for a default WM right now, as the others pose too many problems
[14:41] <scott-work> ttoine: what do you think of the bottom part of this page, the UI Layout area?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric
[14:43] <ailo> I myself use Gnome3. On Ubuntu it does yet not have the addon stuff that makes it customizable, like adding a menu to the top bar. Debian testing has recently added that, so it will end up in Ubuntu later on.
[14:44] <ailo> Also, it's leaking memory at the moment
[14:44] <ttoine> I agree with ailo about the DE choice
[14:44] <ttoine> ailo, you should have a look at the linux mint 12 repositories
[14:45] <ailo> Too mint for me :)
[14:45] <ttoine> but finally, I am well with unity
[14:46] <scott-work> ttoine: it sounds like perhaps we should educate new users about our choice of DE as well
[14:47] <ttoine> scott-work, for me, the best is the full blue one. bright, clear. It is not because it is production that it must be dark. New users (and I know them well...)  will always prefer a bright theme. Dark themes are considered for geeks ;-)
[14:49] <ailo> The Ambience theme is a nice combination of ligt and dark. I don't like full dark themes usually, from a practical point of view.
[14:49] <ailo> I always prefer the combination of perfect usability with an esthetic touch
[14:50] <ttoine> ailo, I agree
[14:51] <ttoine> But to create a desktop like that, one has to be an artist, not only a programmer. I hope that we will be able to get that with xfce. Maybe we should consider having a look at xfce-look.org or something like that and select a beautiful theme, and then just change a bit to integrate ubuntu studio artwork
[14:52] <ailo> If someone finds a nice theme, then I suppose the best thing would be to contact the person who made it. Also, many themes are derived already from something else
[14:53] <scott-work> we can certainly look into creating (or finding) a lighter, bluer, clearer theme that would appeal to new users
[14:56] <ttoine> scott-work, I don't think that blue should be the main color
[14:58] <ttoine> there should be some bit of blue, on a well done friendly theme, with great look and feel
[14:58] <ttoine> having the blue logo is, or the blue wallpaper may be enough
[15:04] <scott-work> we could also look at an installation question with images that prompts the user to choose a theme
[15:06] <ttoine> scott-work, yes, that is a very good idea. but it may be a lot of work to de that prompt
[15:07] <ttoine> ailo, the pulseaudio-module-jack is definitively not friendly with low latency... is this really a bug ??
[15:10] <scott-work> ttoine: that is entirely possible, we really did not accomplish much testing of the pulse-jack bridging due to the late entry of the lowlatency kernel into the repo
[15:21] <ttoine> scott-work, I think that the problem is more about unity
[15:21] <ttoine> I will investigate
[15:28] <scott-work> thank you, ttoine 
[15:32] <ttoine> scott-work, at the moment, the user has to be in audio group, or real-time group to use realtime ?
[15:32] <ttoine> just to check ?
[15:43] <ailo> ttoine: audio group
[15:43] <scott-work> user in audio group
[15:43] <scott-work> ailo, beat me :P
[15:43] <scott-work> i checked that last night from yesterday's image and i found the user in the audio group
[15:43] <ailo> ttoine: The file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf is what decides that
[15:43] <scott-work> likewise i found that the etc/security/limits/....
[15:43] <scott-work> lol, again, ailo beat me
[15:43] <ttoine> ailo, I know...
[15:44] <scott-work> ttoine: we had trouble with jack being configured for a while, it was leaving the file as etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled
[15:44] <ttoine> but what is strange in unity, as soon as any audio app is connected to jack, I have x-runs...
[15:44] <ailo> This might change in the future though, cause audio group is used for something else too
[15:45] <ttoine> ailo, scott-work, yes, it should be realtime users
[15:45] <ttoine> group
[15:46] <ailo> ttoine: Debian will probably change that
[15:47] <ailo> ttoine: Using -lowlatency, you get xruns? At which setting?
[15:48] <ttoine> 5.3ms
[15:48] <ttoine> very strange.
[15:48] <ailo> ttoine: Oh, and I haven't investigated the PA-jack bridge yet, so try disabling that
[15:49] <ailo> ttoine: Yes, but which setting for period/buffer and so on?
[15:49] <ttoine> currently, no x-run at all if only jack is launched in unity. even if the cpu il very loaded
[15:49] <ttoine> as soon as I start ardour, a lot of x-run appear, even if I don't do anything
[15:50] <ailo> ttoine: From loading the app, or running it?
[15:50] <ailo> ttoine: And do you get the same thing using XFCE?
[15:51] <ailo> I'm using Gnome3 with no problems. I could try Unity too, but I suspect there will be no difference. Also, XFCE uses the same Gnome3 stuff for the apps
[15:53] <ttoine> from loading, AND using it (or not using it but let them open)
[15:55] <ailo> ttoine: So, which period/buffer are you using?
[15:56] <ailo> ttoine: I have no problem with Unity. Same performance on all WM's for me
[15:56] <ailo> ttoine: Also, you are sure you have realtime privilege?
[15:58] <ttoine> ailo, I am in the audio group, I use 64 and 3 
[15:59] <ailo> ttoine: Did you install PA-jack bridge separately, or as a part of a Ubuntustudio package?
[16:00] <ailo> As I understand, you are like me, running an Ubuntu install, not an Ubuntustudio one
[16:03] <ailo> I started getting xruns because pulseaudio now
[16:04] <ailo> Hadn't investigated using the same device for both PA and jack
[16:04] <ailo> That's when I start getting problems
[16:05] <ttoine> ailo, I uninstalled it, and deleted the hided file my home, to reset the prefereces of any apps
[16:07] <ttoine> ailo, yes it seems to create problem when using the pa plugin
[16:07] <ailo> I really have no idea about how the pa-jack bridge works on US, but removing pulseaudio-module-jack made my xruns disappear
[16:08] <ailo> This should be thouroughly tested on Ubuntustudio
[16:08] <ailo> Better to remove pa-jack bridge if it's not working well
[16:12] <ttoine> yes
[16:12] <ttoine> it is far better now, without the pa bridge
[16:13] <ttoine> I think that using a usb sound card is not the best too
[16:13] <ailo> ttoine: Did you have the bridge working at any time? I know it works somewhat on Ubuntustudio, but as I said, I don't know how it works
[16:16] <ailo> ttoine: So, you're happy with the performance now?
[16:19] <ttoine> the bridge worked well
[16:19] <ttoine> no, I can see what is the problem, currently...
[16:20] <ttoine>  I am still having a lot of x-runs, even if I do nothing with the apps
[16:20] <ttoine> uname -r
[16:20] <ailo> 3.2.0-20-lowlatency?
[16:21] <ttoine> yes
[16:21] <ailo> And you restarted jack?
[16:21] <ttoine> ailo, do you have any restricted video driver on your pc ?
[16:22] <ailo> ttoine: Yes. nvidia
[16:23] <ttoine> same...
[16:26] <ailo> ttoine: btw, are you using jackdmp?
[16:27] <ttoine> I think
[16:27] <ailo> ttoine: If you're using qjackctl, just disable the D-bus interface from qjackctl/Setup/Misc
[16:27] <ailo> jackdmp doesn't work well at all for me
[16:28] <ailo> It would be best to not have that enabled by default
[16:28] <micahg> ScottL: astraljava: 2 things ahead of you in my queue ATM, so, we need uploads of default-settings, -look, and -lightdm-theme + the -meta?
[16:34] <ttoine> ailo, I can only use jackd, other options don't work
[16:34] <ttoine> it not different without dvus
[16:34] <ttoine> dbus
[16:35] <ailo> ttoine: If you have jackd2 installed, and have the dbus option toggled on, you should be running jackdmp, not jackd
[16:35] <ttoine> jackd2 is installed, dbus option is not activated and I run the default jackd option
[16:37] <ttoine> if I try jackdmp, jack don't start
[16:37] <ttoine> jackdmp
[16:37] <ailo> ttoine: I noticed one has to restart qjackctl in order for that to take effect
[16:37] <ttoine> sorry, wrong keyboard
[16:37] <ttoine> ailo, ok. I do that now, so
[16:38] <ailo> To check which one is running, i do this: ps -e | grep jack
[16:38] <falktx> jackdmp never existed in debian
[16:38] <ttoine> falktx, jackd2 is jackdmp in debian, no ?
[16:39] <falktx> no
[16:39] <falktx> it's all jackd
[16:40] <ailo> Have to go for a while. Downloading lates US, so I will test it later
[16:41] <ttoine> ok
[16:41] <ttoine> ailo, ok
[16:41] <ttoine> I think it is the usb sound card
[16:41] <ttoine> I will try with more latency
[16:42] <ailo> ttoine: Please compare with -realtime if you can. I'd like to hear about your results
[16:43] <ailo> I still need to test on another machine as well
[16:43] <ttoine> ailo,  it ok at near 8ms latency
[16:43] <ttoine> no more problem
[16:44] <ttoine> falktx, what are the differences between jackd1 and jackd2 in debian/ubuntu ?
[16:45] <falktx> afaik, they are:
[16:45] <falktx> - dbus mode only for jack2
[16:45] <falktx> (it could be done for jack1, but needs a patch)
[16:46] <falktx> when a jack app starts and jack is stopped, jack will:
[16:46] <falktx> - jack1 -> start jackd
[16:46] <falktx> - jack2 -> start jackd and ignore jackdbus settings completely
[16:46] <falktx> ^that is a terrbile thing
[16:47] <falktx> also apps are usually compiled on jack1, so some have small issues when jack2 is used
[16:47] <ttoine> falktx, what is the interest of dbus ?
[16:48] <falktx> ttoine: IPC mostly. we can ask for jack stuff, configure it, manage it completely without ever touching jackd
[16:48] <falktx> it's a bit technical
[16:48] <falktx> but the main reason is to get rid of jackd, and manage jack "internally"
[16:48] <ttoine> not only a bit. what do you mean by IPC ?
[16:48] <falktx> ttoine: being able to communicate between apps
[16:49] <falktx> jackdbus makes an a jack possible, when it doesn't even use the jack library
[16:49] <ttoine> falktx, so if jackd2 is installed, and I use qjackctl, should I disable dbus ? or let it enabled ?
[16:49] <falktx> very useful for patchbays
[16:49] <falktx> ttoine: I prefer to have dbus enabled. but qjackctl's dbus support is not very good
[16:51] <ttoine> falktx, at the moment, I can record 26 tracks at a time at nearly 8ms of latency, on a usb sound card
[16:51] <ttoine> seems to be quite good
[16:51] <falktx> not related to the conversation, but yes, that is very good
[16:51] <falktx> oh
[16:52] <ttoine> if i try lower latency, even if i do nothing, i have xruns... strange, no ?
[16:52] <falktx> ttoine: possibly jackdbus also allows jack+pulseaudio to live more friendly, but I never tried it
[16:52] <ttoine> falktx, I think I will try again the pa-jack bridge with more latency
[16:53] <falktx> I always force-bridge PA when needed
[16:54] <falktx> I mostly use snd-aloop + alsa_in/out now though
[16:56] <ttoine> the matter is for people having only a firewire sound card, the only way to have system sound is by the pa-jack bridge. although, this is not a common case
[16:58] <ttoine> too bad that the realtime kernel doesn't support restricted drivers... I can't compare the two kernel on may workstation...
[16:59] <falktx> ttoine: snd-aloop works for firewire as well
[16:59] <falktx> it outputs all alsa sound apps to jack
[17:00] <ttoine> yes, you need jack and ffado, so
[17:08] <falktx> later
[17:16] <ttoine> scott-work, after several trials, it seems that with my soundcard, I can work at a minimum latency of 5ms
[17:17] <ttoine> If I try less, I can start jack but I will have a lot of x-runs
[17:17] <ttoine> the pa-jack bridge works if d-bus is activated, thanks to falktx for the trick
[17:18] <ttoine> so it is a very good kernel hacking !!!
[17:18]  * ttoine will be back
[17:23] <astraljava> micahg: Yeah, I think that's about right. The new one is -live-settings.
[17:24] <micahg> astraljava: that's part of -default-settings though
[17:24] <micahg> astraljava: that's only needed in the live env though, right?
[17:24] <astraljava> micahg: Oh, yeah.
[17:53] <ailo> ttoine: You could uninstall the graphic drivers and then compare -realtime with -lowlatency
[17:53] <ttoine> ailo, yes, I think I will do that
[17:53] <ailo> Also make sure there's no xorg.conf after you reboot
[17:54] <ttoine> ailo, currently, 5,2ms is quite good for 26 tracks recorded at a time ;-)
[17:54] <ttoine> with pa-jack bridge activated
[17:54] <ailo> I don't like to use ms as a way to measure because it's not sure it's the actual produced latency
[17:55] <ailo> When I talk with people about what frames/period they like to use many say they need 32, but for me, 64 is enough
[17:55] <ttoine> I hope I can try with pci sound card like rme...
[17:56] <ttoine> my sound card will not start at 32
[17:56] <ailo> ttoine: How do you enable the pa-jack bridge?
[17:57] <ttoine> just by installing the pulseausio-module-jack package. falktx suggest that d-bus has to be enabled if you do so
[17:57] <ailo> Using dbus with pulseaudio-modules-jack is fine now, but no bridge. 
[17:57] <ttoine> and it works very well
[17:57] <ailo> A funny thing happened to me also. I started Totem, and suddenly PA was outputting to another sound device which was not chosen by either jack or PA
[17:57] <ttoine> ailo, once jack is started, check with patchage that pulseaudio is visible
[17:58] <ttoine> then, in audio preferences of ubuntu, change the defaut sound card to jack-sink
[17:58] <ailo> I don't use patchage. Only qjackctl. 
[17:58] <ttoine> and you will have the system sound on jack
[17:58] <ttoine> qjackctl patchbay is an alternative to patchage ;-)
[17:59] <ttoine> but if the module is installed, you should see pulseaudio in the patchbay
[17:59] <scott-work> i had successfully used dbus enabled jack to output to two different soundcards simultaneous; one from ardour via jack, the other youtube via pulse
[17:59] <ailo> scott-work: That's not dbus. That's just regular jack + PA at the same time
[17:59] <scott-work> ailo: no, i couldn't do that before because qjackctl would suspend pa
[17:59] <scott-work> i realize that is a wrapper script
[18:00] <ailo> scott-work: Yes, but it's still not connected to dbus
[18:00] <scott-work> i thought it was, i thought qjackctl was setup to use jackdbus
[18:01] <ailo> I've been doing that for many years. So, when qjacktl had that wrapper script, I just disabled it
[18:01] <ailo> scott-work: Doesn't matter whether it is jackdbus or jackd. As long as PA and jack have different devices chosen, they can operate at the same time
[18:02] <ttoine> ailo, scott-work, yes, you need dbus to be activated to have to separated cards working one with pulse audio, one with jackd, I confirm
[18:02] <ailo> ttoine: That is not true
[18:02] <ailo> You can do this with jackdbus, jackd1, jackd2
[18:03] <ttoine> ok, will check that
[18:03] <ailo> Has nothing to do with jackdbus. It's just two different programs running simultaniously. Both using alsa drivers
[18:03] <ttoine> ailo, do you see the pulseaudio i/o in the jack patchbay ??
[18:03] <ailo> ttoine: Nope
[18:04] <ailo> I'm going to test Ubuntustudio now
[18:04] <ailo> bb
[18:04] <ttoine> did you restart ?
[18:07] <scott-work> ailo: what is the difference between "bridging" and using dbus then?
[18:07] <scott-work> i thought i understood this, but obviously i do not
[18:07] <ailo> scott-work: Bridgin means pulseaudio is using jack as it's output, instead of an actual audio device
[18:08] <ailo> When you have pa outputting it's audio to jack, only one audio card is in use, and that card is controlled by jack alone
[18:09] <ailo> ttoine: No, I didn't restart, and that was clearly the problem. (logging in/out would have been enough)
[18:09] <ailo> (or to restart pulseaudio?)
[18:10] <scott-work> what does the pulseaudio-jack-module do then?
[18:10] <scott-work> is that bridging? or using d-bus
[18:10] <ttoine> yes, just the session is enough
[18:10] <scott-work> ?
[18:10] <ailo> scott-work: As it seems, pulseaudio-module-jack is making it possible for pulseaudio to use jack as it's output, instead of an audio device
[18:11] <ttoine> the module creates first of all a virtual sound card for pulse audio, the jack-sink
[18:11] <scott-work> so that would be "bridging", no?
[18:11] <ttoine> then, in jack, it creates pulseaudio i/o and connect it per default to the first i/o of jack
[18:12] <ailo> It would be nice if PA auto selected jack as it's output. Maybe that's the reason it didn't work in Ubuntustudio?
[18:12] <ttoine> but if you forget to tell pulse audio to use the jack-sink, it will not do it, so you still need to go to the sound preferences of the system and do it
[18:12] <scott-work> how did you enable dbus for this to work?
[18:13] <ailo> scott-work: dbus is enable by default in qjackctl settings
[18:13] <ailo> Added recently as an option
[18:13] <ailo> Didn't exist before
[18:13] <ttoine> you don't do anything. in the qjackctl, just check that the d-bus option in enabled
[18:14] <scott-work> ailo: okay, david h. had mentioned this but given some previous conversation in this channel today i was beginning to question this and my experience :P
[18:14]  * ttoine need to restart
[18:15] <ailo> scott-work: The only problem I see with this is that, at least for me, qjackctl is not good at stopping jackdmp. It fails to stop it, and then I need to kill the process manually
[18:15] <ailo> I already filed a bug about it some time ago
[18:16] <ailo> Also, the way pulseaudio interacts with jack is great, but still a little too manual. 
[18:16] <ailo> But, that one can live with :)
[18:16] <scott-work> ailo: i saw the bug
[18:17] <scott-work> i have had the same experience, but i figured it was my ignorance about jack and dbus and i needed to do somethign else to fix it
[18:17] <scott-work> i've been focused on other things (obviously)
[18:17] <scott-work> ailo: but it doesn't always happen for me
[18:17] <ailo> scott-work: Same here. It happens every other time, or so
[18:17] <scott-work> i seem to recall that it happened more frequently after i started and stopped jack severl times
[18:20] <ailo> Would be good to get rid of the warning message that qjackctl gives when stopping jack, when the only thing running is pulseaudio
[18:21] <ailo> Well, that's a qjackctl problem anyway
[18:24] <ailo> I really don't like that qjackctl doesn't stop jackdmp well. This will make the LTS not feel like an LTS.
[18:25] <ailo> More like work in progress
[18:25] <scott-work> yeah :/
[18:25] <ailo> Personally, I'd use jackd as default, and give docs on how to enable jackdbus
[18:25] <scott-work> we hit some incredibly major milestones, but 12.04 isn't the penultimate release that i had hoped for
[18:26] <ailo> -lowlatency is a great addition. Also, the XFCE transition is a major change
[18:26] <scott-work> ailo: i had hoped to spend time testing the bridging or dbus integration (or whatever) with david h. this cycle, but i was delayed working on other stuff and so was the lowlatency kernel
[18:26] <scott-work> but this would be a very good item for next cycle and document it as well
[18:27] <ailo> With a little luck, any problems related to jackdmp will vanish by the time for next release
[18:28] <ailo> I'm really the guy who should be working on those items. Did not have the time or opportunity to really get involved until recently. 
[18:28] <ailo> I mean, since everyone else is fairly occupied with all sorts of other things
[18:30] <ailo> My new usb stick was not bootable :/. Back to my old one
[18:38] <scott-work> ailo: what other things would you like to see done in the next cycle or what else would you suggest we look into?
[18:42] <knome> add a mouse in the wallpaper!
[18:42]  * knome hides
[18:50] <scott-work> actually i have it in my notes to remove the mouse from the installation partition image :P
[18:50] <knome> bleh
[18:50]  * knome will set some mouse-bombs for scott in Q
[18:50] <knome> ;)
[18:52] <scott-work> lols
[19:16] <ailo> scott-work: I would need to think about that. About the audio plumbing, I think it's better to talk to people in this order: coders, Debian packagers, Ubuntu packagers, and lastly, make Ubuntustudio specific changes if nothing else works
[19:17] <knome> ailo, i'd say that's the right order in anything
[19:17] <knome> as long as you remember to offer contributing to upstream on every step
[19:18] <knome> then it makes the most sense for everybody
[19:20] <ailo> Until now, there hasn't really been any activity on the audio plumbing side, apart from adding -lowlatency and discussing new default jack settings. There's the seeds of course.
[19:21] <ailo> Each release, there are usually some sort of problems, so it would probably be good if someone on this team would become more active in this area
[19:21] <ailo> I wouldn't mind being that person
[19:24] <ailo> Ok, time to test the iso finally. bbl
[19:34] <ailo-live> One thing that we really need in my opinion is a pulseaudio volumecontrol
[19:35] <knome> ailo, xubuntu is switching to pavucontrol this release
[19:37] <ailo-live> knome, Too late to add it to Ubuntustudio_
[19:37] <knome> ailo-live, it's 1,5h until the beta2 freeze
[19:37] <ailo-live> bah, English keyboard layout
[19:37] <knome> ailo-live, our change isn't uploaded either
[19:37]  * knome hides
[19:38] <ailo-live> knome, I mean to add a question mark after ubuntustudio, but I cant find the key >P
[19:38] <knome> right
[19:39] <ailo-live> Thats one thing that live iso should have during boot. First, choose keyboard layout
[19:39] <knome> well, it's quite late
[19:39] <knome> but, you could do that
[19:39] <knome> i'm too busy to file the Fe though
[19:39] <ailo-live> scott-work, What do you think (questionmark)
[19:45] <len_> ailo-live, there should be a PA volume control both in multimedia and (if the new menu stuff is there) in the mixer section.
[19:45] <len_> If not it was taken out since yesterday.
[19:46] <ailo-live> len_, At the volume control, opening "Sound Settings" opens up alsa mixer
[19:46] <len_> there is a second one below that
[19:47] <len_> In mutlimedia there were two volume controls apps trhe bottom one is PA
[19:48] <ailo-live> Yes, but the actual volume control that you see in the indicator part
[19:48] <ailo-live> Also, I'm yet to figure out how I can change PA output
[19:49] <len_> I was able to yesterday. Are the new menus in today?
[19:49] <ailo-live> len_, How do you change pulseaudio output (questionmark)
[19:50] <len_> ailo-live pavucontrol should still be there... run it from an xterm if the menu item is gone. The last tab should have i/o card choice
[19:51] <ailo-live> len_, I'm using it currently. But there's nothing I can see that let's me change audio device
[19:52] <len_> I found with jack bridging I just had to turn off the sound card and what would be left was jack sink.
[19:52] <len_> look at the output devices tab, if jack is running there should be a jack part there
[19:53] <ailo-live> len_, I'm only concerned with how I can change audio device for pulseaudio at the moment
[19:55] <len_> I'm going to have to DL todays ISO so I can see what is there, Yesterday I couldn't even start jackd with qjackctl.
[19:59] <ailo-live> It's working, but there's nothing that let's you see that you've changed the device
[19:59] <len_> It should be on the last tab configuration... but I am noticing mine (in 11.04) is showing "No cards available" even though I have two. The output Devices shows my default card.
[20:00] <len_> I think I had to manually configure things to get PA to work back then.
[20:00] <len_> I'm DL the ISO to take a look.
[20:00] <ailo-live> I see. Its the control named "Set as fallback"
[20:01] <ailo-live> len_, PA has been poor at supporting multichannel cards, like m-audio in the past. Don't know when it changed, Perhaps this release
[20:02] <len_> It was much better even 11.10
[20:02] <ailo-live> Had to do with PA expecting a certain interface from alsa. Don't know if they fixed it at the alsa end, or the PA end
[20:02] <len_> ailo-live at the PA end.
[20:03] <ailo-live> len_, How do you know
[20:03] <len_> I was talking with the right person...
[20:03] <len_> Can't remember who.. 
[20:04] <len_> It has to do with channel mapping.
[20:04] <ailo-live> Yeah
[20:05] <len_> alsa still says tracks 1-10.
[20:05] <ailo-live> And that has to do with the chip being the way it is
[20:06] <ailo-live> The delta series all had the same chip
[20:06] <ailo-live> Other cards too. Like a Terratec 8ch card
[20:06] <ailo-live> ice1712
[20:06] <len_> I am pretty sure, I used to have to change the alsa config to get it to load in the right order and the PA config to get a right and a left.
[20:07] <len_> Mine is a D66
[20:07] <ailo-live> I have a D66 as well as a LT1010
[20:07] <ailo-live> At one point you were able to fix it by adding a couple of lines to the ice1712 file
[20:08] <ailo-live> I never bothered with this, cause I've always been running two devices paralell. 
[20:08] <ailo-live> One for jack, one for PA
[20:08] <ailo-live> Using a hardware mixer to route the channels to my monitors
[20:09] <ailo-live> Anyway, the volume control should be pulseaudio only
[20:09] <ailo-live> That's a major confusion right now
[20:10] <len_> ailo-live, not so sure about that. there are some things that need the alsa based mixer.
[20:10] <len_> Like my laptop internal mic.
[20:11] <ailo-live> len_, Are you saying we should have an alsa mixer by default
[20:11] <len_> PA controls it by using both channels, but for some reason mine needs the right side to be mute.
[20:12] <len_> the two sides are inverted from each other.
[20:12] <len_> The PA mixer works for most people most of the time.
[20:12] <len_> It is much easier to use. 
[20:13] <len_> The alsa mix needs to be there for the odd (bad) hardware 
[20:13] <ailo-live> I really don't understand your argument. Because you need alsa mixer to get your mic working, it should be the default mixer
[20:13] <scott-work> this is a good example of why we probably need to more clearly define who we are supporting and what we expect their hardware to be
[20:13] <ailo-live> If the default sound server is pulseaudio, isn't it logical to have the pulseaudio mixer as default as well
[20:14] <len_> yes PA should be default.
[20:14] <ailo-live> If PA is not able to control your audio device, then its a bug
[20:14] <len_> Some of the RME cards require the alsa mixer to configure them (I'm told)
[20:15] <len_> PA controls everything but the internal mic correctly.
[20:15] <len_>  There has been a bug report in before I found the problem.
[20:16] <scott-work> and we can keep putting pressure on people to fix these bugs
[20:16] <len_> The internal mic also has a fixed bitrate of 48k...
[20:16] <ailo-live> alsamixer can be used to control the audio card directly, like the delta-66, The volumes are at 0 by default, so they need to be raised. This can either be done using the envy24 control, or using alsamixer.
[20:17] <ailo-live> Having the alsa mixer available is probably a good idea, but the volume contron in the top bar should be pulseaudio only
[20:17] <ailo-live> That's all I'm saying
[20:17] <micahg> scott-work: it's not clear about the new wallpaper which license it's under
[20:17] <len_> mudita24 works for me. but when using gstreamer to PA, the PA controls are helpful.
[20:17] <scott-work> micahg: i have an email from dick that it is the same creative commons license as the others
[20:17] <scott-work> going into a meeting, be back in thirty to an hour
[20:18] <ailo-live> len_, They control different things. mudita24 (envy24) controls the card, while pulsaudio just controls the volume that is sent to it
[20:18] <scott-work> oh, and thank you micahg for working on these to get them into :)
[20:20] <len_> Yup, both are useful for some things. I wouldn't think that mudit24 should be in the panel or the multimedia menu though.
[20:21] <ailo-live> Interesting to see tomorrows image, when it should contain the new -lowlatency
[20:21] <ailo-live> bb
[20:27] <micahg> scott-work: maybe that should be included like the other e-mail in the file?  not exactly sure on this point of order
[20:38] <micahg> scott-work: checking on that copyright file, also I'll need to bump the dependent version of ubuntustudio-look for -default-settings since you're using the new wallpaper
[20:40] <scott-work> micahg: would be satisfactory to add a task to my list to add the email at a later date?  i absolutely promise i will do this
[20:40] <micahg> scott-work: I'm finding out if it's necessary at all
[20:40] <scott-work> micahg: ack
[20:41] <micahg> scott-work: otherwise, I'll back out the wallpaper change for -default-settings and upload
[20:41] <scott-work> micahg: can i send you the email to include?
[20:41] <micahg> scott-work: sure
[20:44] <scott-work> micahg: sent to your canonical address
[20:44] <micahg> thanks
[20:44] <scott-work> thank you :)
[20:46] <micahg> astraljava: I'm thinking to just drop that section of the preinst that has no useful info
[20:47] <micahg> astraljava: I'll leave your name in the changelog for it :0
[20:47] <micahg> :)
[20:47] <scott-work> LOL
[20:54] <micahg> scott-work: not needed, uploading
[20:56] <astraljava> micahg: Yeah, I was on the verge of ridding it too, but then decided to leave it for debugging, after all, not many actually look into the outputs. :)
[20:56] <micahg> yeah, but it'll always show that :)
[20:57] <ttoine> len_, rme sound cards need the hdspmixer apps. other wise you get no sound
[20:58] <astraljava> micahg: Show what? Are you not talking about the "preinst called with unknown argument $arg"?
[20:59] <micahg> yes
[20:59] <astraljava> micahg: So, if there's no printing of that in the default case, what will it show, then?
[20:59] <micahg> astraljava: are you against removing it?
[21:00] <astraljava> micahg: No, but am puzzled with the comment "..but it'll always show that".
[21:00] <micahg> there's nothing useful being done there
[21:00] <micahg> oh, it should show that on any configure/abort-upgrade
[21:00] <micahg> does it not?
[21:01] <astraljava> micahg: There's no functionality, but it would have been there just for informational purposes, ie. finding out if it was called with some other arg. But I agree it's not really important, and probably not very likely anyway.
[21:02] <micahg> ok, removed, uploading meta
[21:02] <astraljava> Thanks!
[21:04] <micahg> astraljava: you want credit in the changelog or no?
[21:05] <scott-work> astraljava: say yes, you'll be famous
[21:06] <len-live> Wow! that was about the most seamless use of PA-jack bridging I have ever done.
[21:06] <scott-work> len-live: did you have to do something special?  anything at all?
[21:07]  * scott-work is presuming len wasn't including sarcasm tags
[21:07] <len-live> Once jack was running I had to tell PA to use jacksink as the "fallback" default.
[21:08] <len-live> I'll have to try it on the netbook as I had problems there last night.
[21:09] <len-live> I am not sure I want to try it with my ensoniq... 
[21:11] <len-live> I think if I stop jack that will go away, so if I restart jack I would have to set PA again.
[21:11] <scott-work> len-live: do you have any music on the interwebs for people to listen to?
[21:11] <TheMuso> So... Can someone plesae check that the lowlatency kernel configs are as they should be? I am pretty sure I fixed it up, but need someone to confirm.
[21:12] <ailo> TheMuso: i386 is as it should be
[21:12] <astraljava> micahg: Let's go by the book, you made the last change, you should be credited.
[21:12] <TheMuso> ailo: Which one? -pae, or non-pae?
[21:13] <ailo> TheMuso: non-pae
[21:13] <ailo> Forgot about pae
[21:13] <TheMuso> Ok.
[21:14] <len-live> I am not sure I understand... There is not recording I have done... The one page I had up where I did something for a friend got lost in an upgrade...
[21:24] <len-live> The ensoniq worked fine too. Last time I got tones of xruns when I tried it with PA-jack bridge.
[21:25] <len-live> Gotta get kids bye for now.
[21:27] <ailo> I'm going to test the bridge for a while. Seems to work well using -p 64
[21:57] <len-live> Tried to install todays ISO... no go. Mar 22 21:49:34 ubuntu-studio ubiquity[3299]: GError: Failed to execute child process "/bin/busybox" (No such file or directory)
[21:57] <len-live> Did we forget to put that in? or is that a basepackage problem?
[21:59] <len-live> I know lots of people are trying to shrink the ISO size, I noticed there are still some CD ISOs that are over size when I DL the ubuntudesktop version yesterday.
[22:00] <len-live> For completeness I will try on the netbook as well (which did work yesterday)
[22:01]  * knome is slightly burnt out :)
[22:01]  * knome will recover by tomorrow, though
[22:02] <len-live> Oh yes and firefox just crashed... I was going to paste the bug number in...
[22:05]  * knome is off, laters
[22:06] <ailo> knome: Have some ice tea too cool down
[22:06] <ailo> Lemon ice tea, :P
[22:32] <len-live> The bug report is Bug #962585 
[22:33] <len-live> Launch pad is having timeout errors right now too.
[22:33] <len-live> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/962585
[22:34] <len-live> for more info.
[22:41] <len-live> Anyway, no installs today.