[00:02] knome, 520 pix ends up too much. The slideshow test is not valid for what really happens... nother bug. [00:03] len_, fsst. [00:03] i'm not sure if i'm willing to file another UIFe for that [00:03] At least with 520, it was obvious that there was something going on below as I could see the top half of the text. [00:03] okay [00:03] that worksforme for P [00:03] it's so much easier to fix this for Q [00:04] The scroll bars where not there for all the slides. [00:04] okay, weird [00:04] well, not really [00:05] but that shouldn't happen at all [00:05] Yeah, my Yf needed some time with me and then the install was over so I didn't look at it real well. [00:05] I have just dropped ubuntudesktop on a stick and will see what that does [00:05] Yf? You have a Yeti-friend? [00:06] Says the Y sound the f Yf = wife [00:06] omg [00:06] nerdspeadk [00:06] -d [00:06] Old ham speak I think [00:06] at least i didn't typo that as nerdspeakd, a deamon for that would be scary [00:08] hmph. [00:08] I will try to get some screen shots during install this time... and do a second US install as well. [00:08] let's say i'll think of fixing that after beta2. [00:09] it's not critical, so i might just leave it [00:09] It is probably ok for the bootmenu install because I don't think there is a top panel getting in the way. [00:10] bootmenu? :) [00:10] right, you mean the *actual* installation? [00:10] Yeah do thingy that says test without installing or install. [00:11] right [00:11] I have been installing from live session... as I would think most people would do that... otherwise why have live DVD? [00:11] len_, i don't think that's either-or [00:12] somebody might use the live dvd to actually work on things [00:12] but that works for the person just wanting to install too [00:12] and with live, you can check if your hardware works [00:13] Yup once you up live and go "ok I like this" it makes sense to just install rather than reboot to install. is what I meant... I think [00:14] yeah. [00:14] but since ubuntu studio only provides one method, there's no alternative. so those just wanting to install will use the same build too [00:15] no good reason to provide something else for that, it would just mean more work :) [00:15] Sure, but that'd be the first-time trial use-case only. I wouldn't think anyone wanting to boot to a live session just to install on possibly another machine, or re-install, or whatever. [00:16] yup [00:16] ...which is why I'm testing the straight-to-install use-case, mostly. [00:16] otoh, the first-time trial is probably the time you want to look at the slideshow, too [00:19] len_: Looks like it's getting past all ubiquity hangs, now. Do we have a winner on our hands? [00:19] knome: Sure. [00:21] i will rest a few nights well before filing any more Fe's :) [00:22] bleh. [00:22] * knome will take backups [00:23] I won't give any. [00:23] *blink* *blink* [00:23] awwhm :P [00:23] Yeah, it boots! But it looks weird. [00:23] astraljava, you looking at a mirror? [00:24] len_: You have battled the UI with ScottL, right? Can you move on those issues? [00:24] knome: I don't have boots. [00:24] but you probably can boot [00:24] and, you just agreed you look weird. gotcha. [00:24] ...yo 4$$, for sure. [00:24] well that's not too hard [00:25] there's plenty of area to land the kick [00:25] * astraljava tiptoes around the subject, but decides to leave it untouched. [00:26] Take that as you wish. [00:26] probably best [00:26] Ok, I think that'll do for this session. I'm heading for some zzz's. Catch ya later. [00:26] astraljava, i'm not sure i understand what you are asking? [00:26] good night! [00:27] going to file one more RT ticket today... [00:27] i'm burning an image now that i've zsync'd [00:27] then i'm going down my checklist of things that were supposed to be "fixed" [00:28] ScottL: For instance, the app menu icon: http://astraljava.kapsi.fi/us_20120321.png [00:29] that's awesome [00:29] the ubuntu studio has got some great momentum behind that logo change [00:29] (: [00:29] knome: Remember, I know where you live. [00:29] hah [00:30] ScottL: Oh, some other issues seem to have disappeared by the time of taking that screen shot, nevermind, that icon thingie is the only one I spot, now. [00:30] But yeah, the zzz's. [00:30] nighty night [00:34] astraljava, i'm guessing that the default-settings weren't updated yet [00:34] or they were and i forgot to 'bzr add' the image? i dont' think so, i think i just replaced it [00:38] * knome is available, if you need help with transparent PNGs ;) [00:40] knome, i don't think so, i made the transparent PNG , built, and tested it [00:41] strange thing is that i'm not seeing my push to the -default-settings package [00:41] hmm [00:41] wait, maybe i was looking under 'ubuntu' [00:41] hold on [00:41] heh [00:42] yeah, yeah...i kept looking at the rev number and thinking that wasn't right ;) [00:43] okay, it's there (including janne's changes), just hasn't been updated [00:43] yup [00:43] i think i need to hit the bed [00:43] nothing to do any more [00:44] well, at least nothing to do today ;) [00:44] goodnight knome [00:45] good night, or day, to you too scott === holstein_ is now known as holstein [03:42] micahg, i touched -default-settings, -look, and -lightdm-theme packages [03:43] micahg, this is basically it for what i'm planning to do now [03:43] i don't expect to touch anything again this cycle unless there is something broken [03:43] Here are some screen shots of the slide show during install. http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/slideSSs.html [03:44] ScottL ^^^ FYI [03:57] oh micahg , i mispoke, i wanted to update the panel layout, which i'll get tomorrow [04:00] ScottL: ok, freeze is at 21:00 UTC [04:15] that is in 17 hours +/- [04:15] right [04:17] w0w [04:17] thats exciting! [04:53] This is not for this cycle... but I would be interested in what people think: http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/workflow.html [04:55] new libav coming, I'm updating the -extra package as well (BTW, extra for the most part will go away in 12.10) [05:06] micahg, extra will go away means "won't be available" or folded in to the normal package? [05:06] folded in [05:06] already in Debian experimental [05:06] Good [08:29] Hi [12:12] is it normal to get up 1.58 hours earlier than i would (or want) just to get some coding done? [12:12] micahg, i've updated the -default-settings package one more time for panel tweaks [12:13] i couldn't get some of the settings to work as i had wanted (like not raising window when just scrolling on it), but practically everything else was done [12:15] ScottL, does 1.58 mean 1h 58mins or 1h, 35mins and a few seconds? [12:15] sorry, 1h, 34mins, ... [12:27] aye, 1 hour and 34 minutes [12:28] i normally get up at 07:00 on tuesdays and thrusday because i get the daughter up and on the bus and take my youngest son to daycare [12:28] i set the alarm for 06:00 thinking that one hour would be enough [12:28] but i woke up somewhere before 5:30, starting thinking about what i needed to do, and couldn't go back to sleep [12:28] i'm glad i did because i would not have had enough time with just 1 hour [12:34] heh [12:34] * knome is working on http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/precise_countdown/draft-2.png [13:11] knome ping [13:12] len_, pong [13:12] knome re scroll bars in install slides... I had them show up last night but by the time I could get the menu open to get a screen shot they where gone [13:13] len_, aha :) [13:13] I think they fixed it by looking for them every time the progress area updates and getting rid of them [13:13] right [13:14] i see no change in code but - fine :) [13:14] Anyway knome, I don't know if you saw them or not, but there are some screen shot of the slide show in an email on our list or in the back scroll on irc. [13:15] i'll look [13:15] Whenever, I gotta eat. [13:16] that looks good [13:16] or, that looks as it should :) [13:16] thanks, and bon appetit [13:56] hi [13:58] hi ttoine :) [13:59] scott-work, what are the news ? [14:00] ttoine: did my final push for this cycle, except for fixing bugs now [14:00] ok [14:00] and what about the kernel ? [14:00] we didn't really hit the goal that i had wanted, but we did accomplish a lot of stuff :) [14:00] ttoine: TheMuso acknowledged the problem and was fixing it [14:05] scott-work, maybe you should write somewhere the goals of your long plan ;-) [14:06] scott-work, I just see that the -lowlatency kernel is in the updates. So it will be my haste of the afternoon to update and test ! [14:07] ttoine: i had meant to have already documented the long plan and publish it for comments/suggestions [14:07] but i've been pretty busy during this cycle [14:07] but now that it's the tail end i should have more time to do this [14:07] ok. so maybe you will have more time after release ? [14:08] i still have some stuff to do (like the website, knome ) but i really have more time now :) [14:08] scott-work, is it something that we can discuss, or you meant it fixed ? [14:08] ttoine: we can absolutely discuss it [14:09] great to know it ;-) [14:09] we have discussed a general direction as a group and we decided that focusing the distro to new users to linux provides the biggest area of opportunity to... [14:09] 1. fill a need [14:10] 2. help make people aware of and use linux (who are not already) [14:10] this doesn't mean we can't provide robust or powerful applications, however [14:10] we will just give extra attention to documentation and simplifying process to make everything as accessible as possible [14:11] i think a mission statement would be helpful to identifying and articulating our goal [14:13] scott-work, this morning I was at a meeting about teaching and producing multimedia with free software, and people were greatly impressed that we can actually do good stuff with quite simple apps, stability and old laptops [14:14] I was pleased to use xfce, too, this morning. [14:15] I hope that this will give me some work [14:16] that is awesome, ttoine :) [14:16] i hope we can continue to provide you the necessary support [14:16] * scott-work is going to reboot work (windows) computer [14:20] scott-work, this release of ubuntu studio may be a definitive "foot ahead" for people wanting to show, teach and use free software as an alternative of OS X [14:23] ttoine: I'm just about to try the latest -lowlatency myself. It has the right config as expected, so it should perform well [14:31] great to know that [14:31] I am updating my workstation at the moment [14:36] ttoine: i am hoping so, many things needed maintenance because parts were falling apart [14:37] scott-work, yes, it is true. Maybe the only point that would make windows and os x users have a negative point of vue at the first time will be the look and feel of xfce, wich is not really "up to date" [14:38] ttoine: why do you say xfce is not up to date? [14:38] ailo, what is your first impression ? [14:39] i think functionaly (i.e. managing windows, using menus, etc) is comparable to windows (the OS) [14:39] ttoine: It's fine for fine [14:39] perhaps the lack of transparent window dressings might cause some to think less of xfce, but it can be done too at a possible cost to performance [14:40] scott-work, xfce is not animated, etc... like os X, for example. and the pannel at the top may be confuse the windows users. I just speak in general term, not telling that xfce is old in the design point of vue [14:40] ttoine: your feedback is quite welcome and appreciated, btw [14:41] i wish we could get other feedback as well [14:41] XFCE is probably the best choice for a default WM right now, as the others pose too many problems [14:41] ttoine: what do you think of the bottom part of this page, the UI Layout area? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric [14:43] I myself use Gnome3. On Ubuntu it does yet not have the addon stuff that makes it customizable, like adding a menu to the top bar. Debian testing has recently added that, so it will end up in Ubuntu later on. [14:44] Also, it's leaking memory at the moment [14:44] I agree with ailo about the DE choice [14:44] ailo, you should have a look at the linux mint 12 repositories [14:45] Too mint for me :) [14:45] but finally, I am well with unity [14:46] ttoine: it sounds like perhaps we should educate new users about our choice of DE as well [14:47] scott-work, for me, the best is the full blue one. bright, clear. It is not because it is production that it must be dark. New users (and I know them well...) will always prefer a bright theme. Dark themes are considered for geeks ;-) [14:49] The Ambience theme is a nice combination of ligt and dark. I don't like full dark themes usually, from a practical point of view. [14:49] I always prefer the combination of perfect usability with an esthetic touch [14:50] ailo, I agree [14:51] But to create a desktop like that, one has to be an artist, not only a programmer. I hope that we will be able to get that with xfce. Maybe we should consider having a look at xfce-look.org or something like that and select a beautiful theme, and then just change a bit to integrate ubuntu studio artwork [14:52] If someone finds a nice theme, then I suppose the best thing would be to contact the person who made it. Also, many themes are derived already from something else [14:53] we can certainly look into creating (or finding) a lighter, bluer, clearer theme that would appeal to new users [14:56] scott-work, I don't think that blue should be the main color [14:58] there should be some bit of blue, on a well done friendly theme, with great look and feel [14:58] having the blue logo is, or the blue wallpaper may be enough [15:04] we could also look at an installation question with images that prompts the user to choose a theme [15:06] scott-work, yes, that is a very good idea. but it may be a lot of work to de that prompt [15:07] ailo, the pulseaudio-module-jack is definitively not friendly with low latency... is this really a bug ?? [15:10] ttoine: that is entirely possible, we really did not accomplish much testing of the pulse-jack bridging due to the late entry of the lowlatency kernel into the repo [15:21] scott-work, I think that the problem is more about unity [15:21] I will investigate [15:28] thank you, ttoine [15:32] scott-work, at the moment, the user has to be in audio group, or real-time group to use realtime ? [15:32] just to check ? [15:43] ttoine: audio group [15:43] user in audio group [15:43] ailo, beat me :P [15:43] i checked that last night from yesterday's image and i found the user in the audio group [15:43] ttoine: The file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf is what decides that [15:43] likewise i found that the etc/security/limits/.... [15:43] lol, again, ailo beat me [15:43] ailo, I know... [15:44] ttoine: we had trouble with jack being configured for a while, it was leaving the file as etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled [15:44] but what is strange in unity, as soon as any audio app is connected to jack, I have x-runs... [15:44] This might change in the future though, cause audio group is used for something else too [15:45] ailo, scott-work, yes, it should be realtime users [15:45] group [15:46] ttoine: Debian will probably change that [15:47] ttoine: Using -lowlatency, you get xruns? At which setting? [15:48] 5.3ms [15:48] very strange. [15:48] ttoine: Oh, and I haven't investigated the PA-jack bridge yet, so try disabling that [15:49] ttoine: Yes, but which setting for period/buffer and so on? [15:49] currently, no x-run at all if only jack is launched in unity. even if the cpu il very loaded [15:49] as soon as I start ardour, a lot of x-run appear, even if I don't do anything [15:50] ttoine: From loading the app, or running it? [15:50] ttoine: And do you get the same thing using XFCE? [15:51] I'm using Gnome3 with no problems. I could try Unity too, but I suspect there will be no difference. Also, XFCE uses the same Gnome3 stuff for the apps [15:53] from loading, AND using it (or not using it but let them open) [15:55] ttoine: So, which period/buffer are you using? [15:56] ttoine: I have no problem with Unity. Same performance on all WM's for me [15:56] ttoine: Also, you are sure you have realtime privilege? [15:58] ailo, I am in the audio group, I use 64 and 3 [15:59] ttoine: Did you install PA-jack bridge separately, or as a part of a Ubuntustudio package? [16:00] As I understand, you are like me, running an Ubuntu install, not an Ubuntustudio one [16:03] I started getting xruns because pulseaudio now [16:04] Hadn't investigated using the same device for both PA and jack [16:04] That's when I start getting problems [16:05] ailo, I uninstalled it, and deleted the hided file my home, to reset the prefereces of any apps [16:07] ailo, yes it seems to create problem when using the pa plugin [16:07] I really have no idea about how the pa-jack bridge works on US, but removing pulseaudio-module-jack made my xruns disappear [16:08] This should be thouroughly tested on Ubuntustudio [16:08] Better to remove pa-jack bridge if it's not working well [16:12] yes [16:12] it is far better now, without the pa bridge [16:13] I think that using a usb sound card is not the best too [16:13] ttoine: Did you have the bridge working at any time? I know it works somewhat on Ubuntustudio, but as I said, I don't know how it works [16:16] ttoine: So, you're happy with the performance now? [16:19] the bridge worked well [16:19] no, I can see what is the problem, currently... [16:20] I am still having a lot of x-runs, even if I do nothing with the apps [16:20] uname -r [16:20] 3.2.0-20-lowlatency? [16:21] yes [16:21] And you restarted jack? [16:21] ailo, do you have any restricted video driver on your pc ? [16:22] ttoine: Yes. nvidia [16:23] same... [16:26] ttoine: btw, are you using jackdmp? [16:27] I think [16:27] ttoine: If you're using qjackctl, just disable the D-bus interface from qjackctl/Setup/Misc [16:27] jackdmp doesn't work well at all for me [16:28] It would be best to not have that enabled by default [16:28] ScottL: astraljava: 2 things ahead of you in my queue ATM, so, we need uploads of default-settings, -look, and -lightdm-theme + the -meta? [16:34] ailo, I can only use jackd, other options don't work [16:34] it not different without dvus [16:34] dbus [16:35] ttoine: If you have jackd2 installed, and have the dbus option toggled on, you should be running jackdmp, not jackd [16:35] jackd2 is installed, dbus option is not activated and I run the default jackd option [16:37] if I try jackdmp, jack don't start [16:37] jackdmp [16:37] ttoine: I noticed one has to restart qjackctl in order for that to take effect [16:37] sorry, wrong keyboard [16:37] ailo, ok. I do that now, so [16:38] To check which one is running, i do this: ps -e | grep jack [16:38] jackdmp never existed in debian [16:38] falktx, jackd2 is jackdmp in debian, no ? [16:39] no [16:39] it's all jackd [16:40] Have to go for a while. Downloading lates US, so I will test it later [16:41] ok [16:41] ailo, ok [16:41] I think it is the usb sound card [16:41] I will try with more latency [16:42] ttoine: Please compare with -realtime if you can. I'd like to hear about your results [16:43] I still need to test on another machine as well [16:43] ailo, it ok at near 8ms latency [16:43] no more problem [16:44] falktx, what are the differences between jackd1 and jackd2 in debian/ubuntu ? [16:45] afaik, they are: [16:45] - dbus mode only for jack2 [16:45] (it could be done for jack1, but needs a patch) [16:46] when a jack app starts and jack is stopped, jack will: [16:46] - jack1 -> start jackd [16:46] - jack2 -> start jackd and ignore jackdbus settings completely [16:46] ^that is a terrbile thing [16:47] also apps are usually compiled on jack1, so some have small issues when jack2 is used [16:47] falktx, what is the interest of dbus ? [16:48] ttoine: IPC mostly. we can ask for jack stuff, configure it, manage it completely without ever touching jackd [16:48] it's a bit technical [16:48] but the main reason is to get rid of jackd, and manage jack "internally" [16:48] not only a bit. what do you mean by IPC ? [16:48] ttoine: being able to communicate between apps [16:49] jackdbus makes an a jack possible, when it doesn't even use the jack library [16:49] falktx, so if jackd2 is installed, and I use qjackctl, should I disable dbus ? or let it enabled ? [16:49] very useful for patchbays [16:49] ttoine: I prefer to have dbus enabled. but qjackctl's dbus support is not very good [16:51] falktx, at the moment, I can record 26 tracks at a time at nearly 8ms of latency, on a usb sound card [16:51] seems to be quite good [16:51] not related to the conversation, but yes, that is very good [16:51] oh [16:52] if i try lower latency, even if i do nothing, i have xruns... strange, no ? [16:52] ttoine: possibly jackdbus also allows jack+pulseaudio to live more friendly, but I never tried it [16:52] falktx, I think I will try again the pa-jack bridge with more latency [16:53] I always force-bridge PA when needed [16:54] I mostly use snd-aloop + alsa_in/out now though [16:56] the matter is for people having only a firewire sound card, the only way to have system sound is by the pa-jack bridge. although, this is not a common case [16:58] too bad that the realtime kernel doesn't support restricted drivers... I can't compare the two kernel on may workstation... [16:59] ttoine: snd-aloop works for firewire as well [16:59] it outputs all alsa sound apps to jack [17:00] yes, you need jack and ffado, so [17:08] later [17:16] scott-work, after several trials, it seems that with my soundcard, I can work at a minimum latency of 5ms [17:17] If I try less, I can start jack but I will have a lot of x-runs [17:17] the pa-jack bridge works if d-bus is activated, thanks to falktx for the trick [17:18] so it is a very good kernel hacking !!! [17:18] * ttoine will be back [17:23] micahg: Yeah, I think that's about right. The new one is -live-settings. [17:24] astraljava: that's part of -default-settings though [17:24] astraljava: that's only needed in the live env though, right? [17:24] micahg: Oh, yeah. [17:53] ttoine: You could uninstall the graphic drivers and then compare -realtime with -lowlatency [17:53] ailo, yes, I think I will do that [17:53] Also make sure there's no xorg.conf after you reboot [17:54] ailo, currently, 5,2ms is quite good for 26 tracks recorded at a time ;-) [17:54] with pa-jack bridge activated [17:54] I don't like to use ms as a way to measure because it's not sure it's the actual produced latency [17:55] When I talk with people about what frames/period they like to use many say they need 32, but for me, 64 is enough [17:55] I hope I can try with pci sound card like rme... [17:56] my sound card will not start at 32 [17:56] ttoine: How do you enable the pa-jack bridge? [17:57] just by installing the pulseausio-module-jack package. falktx suggest that d-bus has to be enabled if you do so [17:57] Using dbus with pulseaudio-modules-jack is fine now, but no bridge. [17:57] and it works very well [17:57] A funny thing happened to me also. I started Totem, and suddenly PA was outputting to another sound device which was not chosen by either jack or PA [17:57] ailo, once jack is started, check with patchage that pulseaudio is visible [17:58] then, in audio preferences of ubuntu, change the defaut sound card to jack-sink [17:58] I don't use patchage. Only qjackctl. [17:58] and you will have the system sound on jack [17:58] qjackctl patchbay is an alternative to patchage ;-) [17:59] but if the module is installed, you should see pulseaudio in the patchbay [17:59] i had successfully used dbus enabled jack to output to two different soundcards simultaneous; one from ardour via jack, the other youtube via pulse [17:59] scott-work: That's not dbus. That's just regular jack + PA at the same time [17:59] ailo: no, i couldn't do that before because qjackctl would suspend pa [17:59] i realize that is a wrapper script [18:00] scott-work: Yes, but it's still not connected to dbus [18:00] i thought it was, i thought qjackctl was setup to use jackdbus [18:01] I've been doing that for many years. So, when qjacktl had that wrapper script, I just disabled it [18:01] scott-work: Doesn't matter whether it is jackdbus or jackd. As long as PA and jack have different devices chosen, they can operate at the same time [18:02] ailo, scott-work, yes, you need dbus to be activated to have to separated cards working one with pulse audio, one with jackd, I confirm [18:02] ttoine: That is not true [18:02] You can do this with jackdbus, jackd1, jackd2 [18:03] ok, will check that [18:03] Has nothing to do with jackdbus. It's just two different programs running simultaniously. Both using alsa drivers [18:03] ailo, do you see the pulseaudio i/o in the jack patchbay ?? [18:03] ttoine: Nope [18:04] I'm going to test Ubuntustudio now [18:04] bb [18:04] did you restart ? [18:07] ailo: what is the difference between "bridging" and using dbus then? [18:07] i thought i understood this, but obviously i do not [18:07] scott-work: Bridgin means pulseaudio is using jack as it's output, instead of an actual audio device [18:08] When you have pa outputting it's audio to jack, only one audio card is in use, and that card is controlled by jack alone [18:09] ttoine: No, I didn't restart, and that was clearly the problem. (logging in/out would have been enough) [18:09] (or to restart pulseaudio?) [18:10] what does the pulseaudio-jack-module do then? [18:10] is that bridging? or using d-bus [18:10] yes, just the session is enough [18:10] ? [18:10] scott-work: As it seems, pulseaudio-module-jack is making it possible for pulseaudio to use jack as it's output, instead of an audio device [18:11] the module creates first of all a virtual sound card for pulse audio, the jack-sink [18:11] so that would be "bridging", no? [18:11] then, in jack, it creates pulseaudio i/o and connect it per default to the first i/o of jack [18:12] It would be nice if PA auto selected jack as it's output. Maybe that's the reason it didn't work in Ubuntustudio? [18:12] but if you forget to tell pulse audio to use the jack-sink, it will not do it, so you still need to go to the sound preferences of the system and do it [18:12] how did you enable dbus for this to work? [18:13] scott-work: dbus is enable by default in qjackctl settings [18:13] Added recently as an option [18:13] Didn't exist before [18:13] you don't do anything. in the qjackctl, just check that the d-bus option in enabled [18:14] ailo: okay, david h. had mentioned this but given some previous conversation in this channel today i was beginning to question this and my experience :P [18:14] * ttoine need to restart [18:15] scott-work: The only problem I see with this is that, at least for me, qjackctl is not good at stopping jackdmp. It fails to stop it, and then I need to kill the process manually [18:15] I already filed a bug about it some time ago [18:16] Also, the way pulseaudio interacts with jack is great, but still a little too manual. [18:16] But, that one can live with :) [18:16] ailo: i saw the bug [18:17] i have had the same experience, but i figured it was my ignorance about jack and dbus and i needed to do somethign else to fix it [18:17] i've been focused on other things (obviously) [18:17] ailo: but it doesn't always happen for me [18:17] scott-work: Same here. It happens every other time, or so [18:17] i seem to recall that it happened more frequently after i started and stopped jack severl times [18:20]