[00:08] <len_> ScottL, the startup screen thing... with the ubuntu screen instead of the syudio screen. seems to be affected by which machine I am on.
[00:09] <len_> I am thinking it has something to do with the nvidia chipset on this machine. Once installed it goes back to normal behaviour... no video during startup.
[00:09] <len_> This is using the free driver.
[00:10] <len_> On my netbook I get the US logo with spinner around it as always.
[00:10] <len_> On the netbook I am doing a install from bootmenu install. I can see the text just fine.
[01:36] <knome> len_, ScottL: re: startup: plymouth vs. debian-cd, or sth?
[01:38] <knome> anyway, be back tomorrow ->
[03:31] <len-1204> ScottL, install from boot menu is ok... I did it twice, on the same machine. I thought it had failed the first time.
[03:32] <len-1204> But it had just written grub to the wrong disk.
[03:50] <len-1204> The second install from boot menu I had scroll bars the whole way... No amount of playing with it got rid of them.
[03:52] <len-1204> nano is now included.
[04:24] <len-1204> astraljava, the problem with plymouth theme seems to be my video card ... it is not there on my netbook.
[04:24] <len-1204> two different experiences.
[04:28] <len-1204> ailo, PA controls work different if it is connected to jack or to alsa.
[04:29] <len-1204> With jacksink PA level controls just control the level of the audio going into jack.
[04:31] <len-1204> It does not control the interface level. That is if I open alsamixer (or click on the speaker icon in the top panel) PA does not control those levels.
[04:31] <len-1204> I can set them with alsa and PA doesn't move them.
[04:32] <len-1204> but if PA has it's output set to the hardware (ie alsa) then if I move the PA level the alsa level moves too.
[04:35] <len-1204> PA will still amplify the audio inside PA if more than 0db is asked for.
[04:36] <len-1204> It does make sense as once jack has control of a device, the only way PA can have  controls is by software.
[10:00] <Laney> Greetings!
[10:00] <Laney> Could one of you fine fellows comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/musescore/+bug/962606 ? :-)
[10:01] <astraljava> len_: That's even more confusing.
[10:05] <astraljava> Laney: I can give it a run in qemu-kvm within the next few hours. Thanks for the heads-up!
[10:05] <Laney> no problemo
[10:24] <ailo> len_: The reason why PA doesn't control your sound device when it's connected to jack is because it's not at all connected to your sound device when that happens
[10:59] <astraljava> ...except that I can't test it. My images fail on the busybox issue.
[14:46] <len_> ailo Yes I figured that out... I was just commenting on it as something that should maybe mentioned in docs to avoid confusion in the newby.
[14:47] <len_> astraljava, sync your ISO busybox is there now.
[14:50] <len_> ailo, someone (don't remember who) was suggesting the panel icon for mixer should be PA and not ALSA as it is now. I was pointing out one of the reasons we need both.
[15:00] <len_> And perhaps a reason the PA control and the ALSA control should NOT have the same icon.
[15:02] <astraljava> len_: So where was it yesterday, and why did it work for you, then?
[15:03] <astraljava> len_: The images haven't been updated on the server today, yet.
[15:28] <len_> astraljava I was using yesterdays images (23rd)
[15:30] <len_> the 22nd image was bad.
[15:30] <len_> I am using i386 BTW
[15:37] <len_> Todays is coming in a few hours (3 or 4)
[15:42] <astraljava> len_: Yep, I was using the amd64, but arch shouldn't really matter. That's why I thought you meant there are newer images than yesterday's.
[16:02] <len_> astraljava, if todays image fails (when it comes) you will need to do another bug then...
[16:08] <ailo> len_: I don't see any reason why we need both alsa mixer and PA mixer where the volume control is. I 
[16:08] <astraljava> len_: Yeah.
[16:08] <len_> ailo No, it might be better to have none.
[16:09] <ailo> Since PA is the default server, the one in use, there should be a mixer for it. Right now it's just confusing
[16:09] <len_> ailo, I guess what I am saying no matter which way it is set up it could be confusing.
[16:11] <len_> However, in normal use, the user would have PA set to some reasonable level (higher than off) so when switching to PA-jack it should still work.
[16:12] <len_> ailo when someone is using jack at all, they need to be using something that controls alsa directly. Either a card specific mixer or alsamix.
[16:13] <len_> To get to qjackctl, they have to use the audio production menu... that has all those mixers in it.
[16:13] <ailo> len_: No, they don't, since the apps are controlling the volume. The only time you need a mixer for your sound device, when PA doesn't cut it, is when you have a special card. In that situation you use something like mudita24, or alsamixer.
[16:14] <ailo> Don't confuse things now
[16:14] <ailo> PA is the sound server. But it's using alsa drivers, just like jack is
[16:14] <ailo> So, no matter if you use PA or jack, you might need a specific mixer for your special card
[16:15] <ailo> If you want to control PA, you need the PA mixer. And since PA is the default sound server, you can't use alsa mixer to control PA
[16:15] <len_> ailo, it seems like the panel mixer should be the PA control. the PA control should be in the multimedia menu and the alsa mixer should be in with the other mixers
[16:16] <ailo> I'm used to the "sound settings" mixer that Unity and Gnome3 uses. I think that one is the best for controlling PA
[16:17] <ailo> The panel mixer should definately be a PA mixer
[16:17] <ailo> alsamixer is a generic mixer for all alsa driver based cards
[16:17] <len_> Can we still change these things this cycle?
[16:17] <ailo> I would prefer we did
[16:18] <ailo> Otherwise, it's very confusing
[16:18] <ailo> ScottL: Please have a read :)
[16:19] <len_> I would suggest then that we change the menu too. As I said PA in mutimedia and the alsa mix only in the mixer menu.
[16:21] <len_> The alsa mixer is the non-card  specific but is the one to use with jack if your card doesn't require its own mixer.
[16:22] <ScottL> ailo, len_ , i am about to start testing again and i'll read through (again) what you said and look about
[16:22] <len_> ailo, next question... how do we change the panel icon app?
[16:22] <len_> ScottL OK
[16:26] <ailo> len_: I have no idea. But, I think knome said they were going to change theirs, even as late as now
[16:26] <ailo> So, it should be possible for us to do it also
[16:29] <len_> ailo ok, I'm going to verify that dual monitors still works ok. I will see if I can find a way to change what app the icon bringa up.
[16:38] <astraljava> panel icon app?
[16:41] <len_> astraljava the panel has an icon that changes the volume level, under it there is a sound settings button. I was thinking it could be set to run PA controls instead of alsa mix
[16:42] <len_> The config file doesn't seem to have that option though.
[16:42] <len_> I am guessing the whole applet needs to be changed.
[16:43] <astraljava> len_: Yeah, that. I saw the change on the Xubuntu-side.
[16:43] <astraljava> I can look into it if you like.
[16:44] <len_> Both ailo and I agree it should be PA, but it might be best to ask Scott when he is free.
[16:44] <astraljava> len_: ailo: Can you test a newer musescore that Laney linked to earlier? I'd like to get the comment on the bug as soon as possible, as we're so close to the release already.
[16:45] <len_> What would I be looking for? I am kinda "score" dumb "play by ear/chord chart"
[16:47] <astraljava> len_: I think it just needs a verification that it runs fine. I'm sure Toby has already verified it otherwise.
[16:47] <astraljava> I'll just double-check it builds ok.
[16:48] <ailo> astraljava: Do you have the link to the bug?
[16:49] <astraljava> ailo: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/musescore/+bug/962606
[16:49] <ailo> astraljava: I think the volume applet thing is pretty crucial. Without the change, the desktop doesn't feel ready for release
[16:50] <ailo> It's LTS after all :)
[16:50] <astraljava> ailo: I am not disagreeing. I just want Scott's ok on it.
[16:52] <ailo> I'll test the new musescore right awat
[16:52] <ailo> away
[16:53] <ailo> Not a bad program btw
[16:54] <astraljava> Yeah, so I've assumed.
[17:03] <len_> Dual monitors still works as before... too bad it requires two apps to set it up.
[17:03] <ailo> len_: Which two apps?
[17:04] <ailo> astraljava: I'd have to compare with the older one, to see what the big deal is, but I assume there is one. It seems to work very well
[17:04] <len_> It needs ARandR to set them side by side and then the display setting app to save it so it comes up on next login
[17:05] <ailo> len_: The display setting is not able to do all that?
[17:05] <len_> No the display setting would allow possitioning of monitors.
[17:05] <ailo> Dual monitoring is big hazzle :p. Especially with ATI cards
[17:05] <len_> a/would/won't/
[17:05] <len_> a should be s
[17:07] <len_> The position of monitors should be easy to include even if it is strictly text. It would be better than what we have now.
[17:07] <len_> need to do a feature request to the xfce devs
[17:08] <ailo> astraljava: It's major update, but there's still the PPA, so it's not impossible for people to get a newer version if they want to
[17:09] <ailo> If it's possible to add it to the LTS, that would probably be good
[17:10] <len_> astraljava musescore comes up ok and seems to work from what I can tell. I have an i386 and I think ailo (correct me if wrong) has amd64
[17:10] <astraljava> ailo: I don't think anything specific needs to be tested. Just make sure it runs okay without any obvious issues. I'm not seeing any huge changes in the changelog Toby provided in the bug comments.
[17:12] <ailo> astraljava: The bug fixes may not be in thousands (about 100), but they're probably annoying ones, and they've added a bunch of new languages, and so on, so I think it's should be regarded as a major update. It feels very clean and mature
[17:13] <ailo> astraljava: One important feature is the ability to import Sibelius and Finale sheets
[17:13] <ailo> That's a real dealbraker
[17:13] <ailo> So, just on that account, I would say it makes a hige change for the users
[17:13] <astraljava> ailo: Are you saying you're objecting to the sync?
[17:14] <ailo> astraljava: Sorry, I meant to say the opposite :)
[17:14] <ailo> I think it's a welcome upgrade
[17:14] <astraljava> ailo: Ok. :) Good, then.
[17:14] <astraljava> I'll comment on the bug saying it's welcomed whole-heartedly, it built just fine on a precise pbuilder.
[17:16] <len_> ailo the display settings app has four option lists for each monitor: res, refresh rate, rotand reflection. I do not think it would be that hard to add one for position. The three options would be ontop, toright or below. Or just a textbox that only shows when there are two monitors that the user can manually set a position.
[17:16] <len_> s/ontop/same
[17:17] <len_> Anyway, dual monitors is verified as working.
[17:18] <astraljava> Laney: Commented, feel free to proceed from our POV.
[17:35] <len_> ScottL: one thing that does seem odd with current ISO is the two file managers. The default is nautilus, but double clicking a desktop icon gets thunar.
[17:36] <ailo> len_: I have yet to test that program, but can't you just click the screens and move them into position?
[17:37] <len_> Using which program?
[17:38] <len_> ArandR lets me move with a click.
[17:38] <ailo> len_: I'll have to test it myself. I was referring to whatever standard program XFCE uses for adjusting the screens
[17:39] <len_> the xfce4 diplay setting applet does not, but it does let me save the setting so they work automatically on next login
[17:39] <ailo> Such a delight using a scanner, when all you need to do is to plug it in, and scan. Not like Windows :P
[17:40] <len_> Ya scanning is good. I use a combo scan/rpinter that someone left out side with a "free" sign on it... no printing, but scans fine.
[17:41] <len_> ailo, the reason for including ARandR is the lack of default applet functionality.
[17:42] <ailo> Just bought a new Canon scanner. 2400x2400 dpi. Checked in advance that it was supported. When I plugged it in, nothing happened. But, then I just opened the simple scan program and all I needed to do was push "scan", and it worked
[17:42] <ailo> I'll be needing it to scan some school books to save money
[17:48] <len_> ailo... quick hint, don't use 2400x2400... 300 or even 150 dpi is enough. Been doing the same thing for my wife with her text books
[17:49] <ailo> len_: I will be using it for family pictures as well. Just tested the resolution. It's mind blowing. Just what I need. Don't want to scan all those pictures a second time :P
[17:50] <ailo> Nah, for text, it's just so that you can read them. Don't want to be scanning for weeks either
[17:51] <len_> I think mine maxs at 1200.
[17:53] <ailo> Ah well. I'm getting some purple lines :(. Wonder if I'd get that with Windows
[17:53] <len_> yikes
[17:55] <ailo> The resolution is 10096 × 14173. Not visible when zoomed out, but when you zoom in they start appearing
[17:55] <len_> Are they all the same distance apart or random?
[17:57] <ailo> Same distance
[17:58] <len_> So maybe the scanner is sending extra info at the end of every "packet" for something... 
[17:58] <len_> Does simple scan use sane as a backend?
[18:03] <ailo> I think so
[18:03] <ailo> I'm reading up on stuff related right now
[18:04] <ScottL> i got the weird error that len reported in ubiquity, i thought i had zsync'ed the yesterday's image, downloading the latest
[18:04] <knome> hmm
[18:04] <ScottL> len_, yeah, i'm not sure about the thunar/desktop icon thing, i almost removed the icons from the desktop because of that
[18:05] <knome> ScottL, len_: if you can confirm any slideshow issues happening with the US slideshow as well as ubuntu, please file a bug for them, and attach any info on the testing hardware/emulation
[18:05] <knome> ScottL, len_: file the bugs against ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu, btw. i will see if we can work those out
[18:05] <len_> ScottL I have no problem with removing desktop icons... if so can we also get rid of that instance of thunar running
[18:07] <ScottL> after i download yesterday's image the brand new one should be ready so i'll zsync from that one
[18:07] <len_> ScottL todays ISO should show up before the end of the hour... you may wish to wait.
[18:07] <astraljava> ScottL: Do you approve of the indicator plugin change for replacing the volume to PA?
[18:07] <ScottL> len_, i'll zsync that one before testing again
[18:08] <ScottL> knome, one of the things i want to look at is the slideshow, i'll note the experience and file bug if i notice anything
[18:08] <ScottL> astraljava, i don't know yet, i would like to get a working install again and reread what len_ and ailo were discussing
[18:09] <astraljava> ScottL: No problem. I can look into the switching tomorrow, then.
[18:09] <ScottL> i think we have an overly complicated arrangement with the volume controls anyway
[18:09] <len_> ScottL we don't have much choice...
[18:09] <ScottL> that is very, very true, sadly
[18:10] <len_> PA tries to make it less complex and does a good job for _most_ tasks.... ie casual listening.
[18:10] <ScottL> however, this could be an area of opportunity for development :)
[18:12] <ailo> I don't understand. PA is the default server. Right now, alsa mixer is the default volume control mixer. This is a bug
[18:12] <ailo> When you push a button that says "sound settings" for your desktop audio, the right mixer should appear
[18:13] <ailo> In this case, the PA mixer
[18:13] <len_> The only place PA fails is when using Jack for audio production. In this case the interface specific mixer is used to setup the card and the application decides what level to send to the card... 
[18:14] <len_> ailo I agree there. PA is for desktop use.
[18:14] <ailo> len_: It's not a failure. It's just the way the software is designed
[18:14] <len_> The desktop should reflect that
[18:14] <ailo> Perhaps the PA mixer could be more advanced, adding more controls to it
[18:14] <len_> I should have said use failure
[18:15] <len_> PA is not designed for what jack is used for. They are two different uses.
[18:15] <ailo> But, it's perfectly right that the PA mixer does not do anything else but control the software that is connected to it. 
[18:16] <len_> Yup. I am agreeing with you... just not saying it well.
[18:16] <ailo> If jack is controlling the card, and PA is connected to jack, why should PA control the card as well? That makes no sense at all
[18:17] <ailo> jack does not have a mixer. It just connects ins and outs
[18:17] <ailo> Or, that is it's mixer
[18:17] <len_> yup.
[18:19] <len_> To anyone who understands PA and jack, it makes perfect sense. And really, if someone wants to use jack effectively they need to understand it.
[18:21] <ailo> Perhaps it might be a good idea to try attempt combining PA and jack under the same set of controls and the same interface. But, since they are not the same program, it would need to be a -controls type of app. 
[18:21] <ailo> It would be best if you never needed to start jack. If you open a jack specific app, jack should start automatically
[18:22] <ailo> And it is supposed to do that now, for some apps
[18:22] <len_> ardour tries to do this, but most don't
[18:23] <ailo> The problem is that the these are two completely different sound servers. To combine them, you'd need to have some kind of a smart plugin based setup for the app.
[18:23] <len_> PA has some crash protection, that is it tries to restart itself if it fails. Jack still fails for odd reasons sometimes.
[18:23] <ailo> The same control interface, but populated by different packages
[18:24] <len_> that would beyond me... I would like it to control PA, jack, alsa and a2j.
[18:24] <ailo> It might be a good idea to discuss these kind of things with the jack developers right now, since they are meaning to begin new development
[18:25] <len_> Are they trying to include PA style fuction?
[18:25] <ailo> I think I might do that, but I'll have to give it some thought. If jack comes with the right kind of flexible interface, and also PA, than nothing is impossible, I'm sure
[18:25] <ailo> len_: No, but I believe they want to stop having jack1 and jack2, and instead just have one kind of jack
[18:26] <ailo> One written from scratch
[18:26] <len_> It would be nice to be able to run jack all the time
[18:26] <len_> That is what I heard too.
[18:26] <len_> It would be nice if they included a2j functioality
[18:28] <ailo> If jack is functional enough to support all imaginable use cases, then nothing is impossible
[18:28] <len_> They have the seq function, but it does not make it easy to identify alsa midi toys on the jack side.
[18:28] <ailo> Perhaps it already supports all that we are talking about
[18:29] <ailo> seq is a jack driver, is it not? a2jmidi was included into jack2 recently
[18:29] <len_> Cool.
[18:29] <len_> About time.
[18:29] <ailo> It's working now, in fact
[18:29] <ailo> If you choose seq as the midi driver, you get both jack and alsa midi
[18:30] <len_> Ya it has for a while, but on the jack side the midi ports have been midi 1 to midi n not named
[18:30] <len_> a2j bridges the names too.
[18:31] <len_> Has that been fixed.
[18:31] <ailo> I wish I knew coding better. I'm preparing to study computer engineering at the University. It'll take me a few more years before I can be of any real assistance if I would want to help develop something like jack. I just don't have the knowledge or that experience yet :(
[18:32] <ailo> len_: I don't remember.
[18:32] <len_> I'm checking now...
[18:33] <astraljava> ailo: You don't necessarily need university education to start coding, though. I went through one course before making it a profession.
[18:33] <astraljava> I'm not saying I'm good at it, but if it pays the bills...
[18:35] <len_> ailo I start jack with seq turned on.. alsa shows midi though and virtual keyboard, jacks midi panel shows midi-capture1 and midi-capture2
[18:37] <len_> setting jack to midi "raw" shows nothing in jacks midi... I have no midi card.
[18:39] <len_> set jack midi to none... run a2jmidid and on jacks midi I get midi through and virtual keyboard
[18:39] <len_> Much easier to use
[18:41] <len_> ailo, unless there is a newer jack we don't ship yet... a2j functionality is still not there.
[18:41] <ailo> astraljava: I do a fair share of coding, but in order to really get to the point where I'd like to be, a computer engineering education is probably going to help a bit
[18:42] <ailo> len_: So, it's not exactly the same, but it still works to some degree
[18:43] <astraljava> I don't see any images, wonder if the dailies are actually disabled for the Beta-2 ISO testing phase?
[18:44] <astraljava> ailo: I understand, but I'm just saying you can start contributing even when you haven't still reached the point where you'd like to be. :)
[18:45] <astraljava> Apparently not, there are the emails from the tracker. But no images, nonetheless.
[18:45] <len_> ailo, try using it with a lot of midi inputs and outputs... seq gets to "not usable" real quick. You have to swich back and forth between screens and counts down on one side then the other screen.
[18:47] <len_> There is an amd64 iso for today... maybe i386 is on its way.
[18:50] <len_> yup i386 is there now too.
[18:50] <len_> DLing...
[18:53] <ailo> len_: I see. Not as good as it could be then
[18:55] <ailo> Unity's dual monitoring sucks quite a bit, so I'm sure XFCE is not that far behind
[18:55] <ailo> But, Gnome3 on the other hand, I like much better
[18:55] <len_> can we use there settings app?
[18:55] <len_> or does it pull in too much?
[18:56] <len_> ailo, seq on jackd is bad enough to make installing a2j and using it worthwhile.
[18:57] <ailo> Well, setting it up may be easier on both Unity and Gnome3, but the functionality once it's setup is another issue
[18:57] <ailo> (once it's set up)*
[18:58] <ailo> Unity is a little strange with dual monitors, at least when using nvidia drivers
[18:59] <len_> Not having dual monitor... (i have an old quite dim crt I use for testing) I haven't had time to meet up with usabiliy issues.
[19:00] <len_> I can't get the nvidia drivers to work well enough to boot.
[19:00] <len_> I use the free ones.
[19:00] <ailo> len_: An older card?
[19:00] <ailo> Also, I hear nvidia support might be devreasing :(
[19:00] <len_> ailo 6years or so.
[19:01] <ailo> Getting ATI to work well should not be too difficult now that the specs are open. But, I guess too few are working on making the drivers work well
[19:01] <ailo> Also, the proprietary drivers for ATI suck even more than the open ones
[19:01] <len_> I'm not even sure I could get another card with the same socket.
[19:01] <ailo> But that may be a matter of opinion
[19:02] <ailo> ADP?
[19:02] <ailo> AGP?*
[19:02] <len_> I'm waiting till I get the next new MB.. not sure what it is called, but I have another card and it won't fit.
[19:03] <len_> Is there away to find out by looking in /proc?
[19:03] <len_> or syslog?
[19:03] <ailo> I payed about 250$ for my latest computer. Bought it in parts, and reused such things as the computer case, DVD and so
[19:03] <ailo> lspci
[19:04] <ailo> Maybe that won't show agp cards
[19:04] <ailo> It shows a lot more than just pci anyway
[19:04] <len_> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV5M64 [RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro] (rev 15)
[19:04] <ailo> Ah, that's an old one :)
[19:04] <astraljava> Ahh... there they are.
[19:05] <astraljava> len_: What are you looking for? `sudo lshw -c display` should show it, if you're talking about graphics.
[19:05] <astraljava> Oh, yeah, that too.
[19:07] <ailo> Graphic cards are really cheap now. I recommend getting one without a fan. Any new model should do. Some might be buggy with 3d stuff though, but that doesn't matter to most people
[19:09] <len_> capabilities: pm agp agp-2.0 vga_controller bus_master cap_list rom
[19:09] <len_>        configuration: driver=nouveau latency=32 maxlatency=1 mingnt=5
[19:09] <len_> So do they still sell cards for this slot?
[19:10] <ailo> len_: I think so. At least they did not long ago
[19:10] <len_> Not that it matters... it seems to work well enough.
[19:10] <ailo> len_: If you upgrade your MB, you'll have to upgrade your power supply, RAM and perhaps your hard drive
[19:10] <len_> I think one of the caps is going though, I get light coloured streaks though the picture.
[19:10] <ailo> processor too of course
[19:11] <ailo> len_: Do you ever do any 3d stuff on it? That would likely be the first thing that goes
[19:11] <len_> The only thing is that I need two pci slots... one for the d66 and one for the midi card
[19:11] <ailo> graphic cards don't usually survive for long
[19:13] <ailo> len_: 2 pci seems to have been a standard in modern boards, so that's not hard to find. I have 2 slots in both my machines. 
[19:14] <len_> But until I actually start doing some recording with what I have and find limitations I probably won't upgrade.
[19:14] <ailo> len_: midi usb devices are not expensice. I have one, just for such situations when you don't have any other way of getting midi
[19:14] <ailo> I have a m-audio uno, I think it's called
[19:15] <len_> I owuld get what ever Long and Mcquade has... They have a few.
[19:15] <ailo> I used a P3 about 1 1/2 year ago, and it worked well. Just a little bit noisy, and buying new IDE hard drives is not that cheap. Never got so serious that I would have bought a sata pci card for it
[19:15] <ailo> 512 MB Ram
[19:16] <ailo> puredyne was the OS I used. Based on XFCE as well
[19:16] <len_> DL complete, writing iso to usb...
[19:16] <ailo> I used it for live audio, and it worked ok. A little too slow in performance though. Just a tiny bit
[19:17] <len_> I find the two I have too slow for live work too. Maybe with the new kernel.
[19:18] <len_> For me live work means using it as a guitar effect...
[19:18] <ailo> len_: Have you tried using a -realtime or a -lowlatency before with it?
[19:19] <len_> Not yet. Is our new kernel been built with the right config yet?
[19:19] <len_> I was playing with 11.10 so generic.
[19:19] <ailo> The current kernel is the real deal
[19:20] <len_> I'll try it on both boxes
[19:20] <ailo> I played guitar using rakarrack for a couple of hours, and not a single xrun at -p64
[19:20] <ailo> That's my minimum requirement. Some have -p32, which is a little bit more tricky
[19:21] <len_> OK, -p64 means what? I have qjackctl's set up open...
[19:21] <ailo> -p64 = 64 frames/period
[19:22] <ailo> If you start jack, you could give it: jack -d alsa -d hw:1 -p64
[19:22] <len_> for lat.. of 2.9?
[19:22] <ailo> I have 2.67
[19:22] <len_> qjackctl has f/p
[19:23] <ailo> The -p argument stands for that, if you start jack from the command line
[19:23] <len_> what sample rate?
[19:23] <len_> mine is 44100
[19:23] <ailo> Ah, right. At 44.1 I also read 2.9 ms
[19:23] <ailo> But the ms is not correct though
[19:24] <ailo> It all depends on the software you're using and who knows what else
[19:24] <ailo> So, if it sounds ok, then it's ok
[19:24] <len_> just making sure the rest of my setting were the same
[19:24] <ailo> For me, it's -p64, using puredata, which is the software I use for just about everything audio these days
[19:25] <len_> I need to learn PD I hear and read good things about it... but can't use it yet.
[19:25] <ailo> len_: Takes a few days, or weeks, to really get into it. But once you do, you realize you can do anything you want.
[19:25] <astraljava> ailo: One of these days I'll actually start _using_ our distribution, and you're gonna have to give me some lessons on how to do it. :) Guitar through rakarrack sounds like a good plan.
[19:26] <len_> I get that idea.
[19:26] <ailo> It's a fairly simple language to master well, but it still takes some time to get into it
[19:27] <ailo> astraljava: It's been my problem too. I haven't been using most of the software before. Rakarrack is not too bad. I have a metal setting that I like. 
[19:28] <len_> I take it after beta 2 things get pretty static as far as changes go, I may have some time to play around and get some good ideas for workflow.
[19:28] <astraljava> ailo: Nice.
[19:28] <ailo> len_: The main problem with pd is info. Hard to get it sometimes. Just have to bother people at #dataflow, and the pd mail lists
[19:29] <astraljava> len_: Yeah, that's the idea.
[19:30] <len_> booting todays ISO on the netbook.
[19:30] <len_> The graphic screen while loading is right (plymouth?)
[19:35] <len_> I guess Scott's default-settings change didn't make it...
[19:35] <len_> Menu is still stock.
[19:35] <len_> ScottL ^^
[19:36] <astraljava> The version in the archives is 0.30
[19:47] <len_> The code there is not fixed yet... the file still has the wrong name.
[19:51] <len_> I'll try an install
[19:55] <len_> No scrollbars on slide show.
[19:55] <len_> slideshow still too tall... but then we knew that.
[20:15] <len_> ubiquity doesn't ask which drive to install grub to. This means I have to mess with the bios if it guesses wrong... and then mess again to go live. Only a problem for someone who  tests a lot though.
[20:18] <astraljava> Yeah, another gripe of mine with the GUI installer.
[20:19] <astraljava> I'm really surprised how inferior it is, still, to d-i.
[20:19] <ailo> len_: Did you try audio yet?
[20:20] <len_> still installing.
[20:20] <len_> it is DL extra packages just now... 20 min remaining.
[20:21] <ailo> len_: I gotta say, you work hard with testing. It has to have meant a lot for this release
[20:21] <len_> wlan is slow.
[20:22] <astraljava> ailo: Agreed. And so have you. So a huge thanks to you both!
[20:22] <astraljava> I think Scott should buy you barrels of beer or single malt or something for your efforts. :)
[20:23] <len_> More memory...
[20:24] <len_> My gut gets upset at more than about 1.5 beer at a time... wife too.
[20:25] <ttoine> ailo, just to tell you that without the restricted driver, it is hard to have lowlatency in unity
[20:27] <ttoine> but the lowlatency kernel works great. I did music all this afternoon, creating and recording a song with friends for a wedding, and the only matter was when we had to activate network to look for some extra stuff
[20:30] <ailo> ttoine: Do you have irq conflicts?
[20:30] <ailo> ttoine: cat /proc/interrupts
[20:31] <ailo> I actually have the same IRQ for nvidia as I have for my internal card, now that I'm looking
[20:33] <ailo> astraljava: I haven't done much after all. Propably you and len that deserve those beer the most
[20:33] <ttoine> ailo, what shows that I have irq conflicts with the command you give me ?
[20:34] <ailo> ttoine: Look for your sound device, and see what other devices are listed on that IRQ as well
[20:34] <ailo> This is the IRQ for my m-audio device: 19:    5349097          0   IO-APIC-fasteoi   ata_piix, ata_piix, uhci_hcd:usb6, snd_ice1712
[20:35] <ailo> ice1712
[20:35] <ailo> This is my internal device: 16:     163587          0   IO-APIC-fasteoi   uhci_hcd:usb3, snd_hda_intel, nvidia
[20:35] <ailo> hda_intel
[20:35] <ailo> You can see what devices you have, and their names doing: cat /proc/asound/cards
[20:36] <ttoine> ailo, so there snd_hda_intel appears on 2 different irq, the nvidia sound chipset of the graphic card appear on the same line than the usb sound card
[20:36] <ailo> That also tells you what irq they have..
[20:37] <ailo> ttoine: Me too, now that I look. One is "PCI-MSI-edge", and one is "IO-APIC-fasteoi". The latter is probably the one you should look at
[20:38] <ailo> But, even though, I have actually not experienced any difference while using, or not using, rtirq-init script, so for me, this does not seem to matter
[20:38] <ttoine> hum. I have 3. the intel, the usb, and the nvidia
[20:39] <ailo> The usb propably does no harm, as long as you don't use it
[20:39] <ailo> I should try experimenting with mine. I also have share usb with the sound devices
[20:39] <ttoine> ailo, the usb soundcard is actually the sound card I am using for music
[20:39] <ailo> ttoine: Right, but that's not intel
[20:40] <ailo> The different usb ports probably have different irq's
[20:40] <ailo> You could try using different usb ports
[20:40] <ttoine> rtirq-init is not installed with the kernel ?
[20:40] <ailo> It is a dependency for -lowlatency
[20:40] <ailo> So, it should be installed
[20:40] <ttoine> ailo, the usb card is a presonus and is recognized with its full name
[20:41] <ttoine> ailo, but you told you don't use the script ?
[20:41] <ailo> ttoine: It is recognized in it's full name from /proc/irq?
[20:41] <ttoine> ailo, what is strange is that the intel chipset appear 2 times on the irq list, the second time with a usb stuff
[20:42] <ttoine> and the nvidia share the irq of other usb stuf
[20:42] <ailo> I have the script installed, but I've experimented before, but uninstalling it, and there was no difference in performance for me
[20:42] <ttoine> ailo, no, it is not recognizer in /proc/irq
[20:42] <ttoine> you're riht
[20:42] <ttoine> right
[20:43] <ailo> What I hear is that when you do have IRQ problems, you get xruns at every latency setting, even the highest ones
[20:43] <ailo> Sometimes less in the lower ones
[20:44] <ailo> Common for laptops
[20:44] <ailo> Common problems have been, network card, and graphic card
[20:46] <ailo> But, I'm sure there have been all sorts of problems
[20:47] <ailo> Often rtirq-init script has solved those
[20:47] <ailo> Add to that, the actual device you use makes a difference
[20:47] <ailo> Also, I believe different kernel versions make a difference
[20:48] <ttoine> perhaps
[20:48] <ailo> Since the kernel developers aren't concerned with what we do, things can go either way what audio performance is concerned
[20:48] <ailo> Add to that, I have noticed other stuff also make a difference
[20:48] <ttoine> I still to have some test with my old intel laptop. it is a reference for me, when testing low latency kernel
[20:49] <ailo> Last year we tested the -lowlatency kernel. After a month, the same exact kernel was not reliabe as much anymore
[20:49] <ailo> So, something in Ubuntu had changed that
[20:49] <ailo> That is what I find most interesting
[20:49] <ailo> And I don't think anyone has a clue to what that is about
[20:50] <ailo> After a month, we had updated our machines, and the same kernel did not perform the same way on the same machines
[20:53] <len_> ailo, something when right. I didn't have to mess with the bios this time.
[20:55] <ailo> len_: What do you usually have to do?
[20:57] <ttoine> ailo, very strange, yes. maybe some change in the priorities in the Unity, Compiz, or the xorg driver...
[21:00] <len_> Some times the install prints grub to a drive other than the install drive and I have to change the boot order in bios.
[21:01] <ailo> len_: Perhaps you have to change the MB battery?
[21:01] <ailo> If you the battery is low, and you power down the machine, each time you make changes to that bios, they will be back to default, if there's no battery power
[21:02] <ailo> Wish my grammar was up to my IQ level :P
[21:02] <len_> I normally have usb drive first so that if I plug a stick with an iso on it boots. As my test drive is also a usb drive, when I pull the memory stick out it tries to boot from there. However if the install decides instead to put grub on the internal drive I have to change the bios.
[21:03] <len_> So yesterday grub ended up internal... today external... go figure.
[21:04] <ailo> If you get the external grug, that means your bios decide on going for the external
[21:04] <ailo> I guess it's strange for a bios to decide on which variable to boot, when they aren't there all the time
[21:06] <len_> It is the same as booting from a cd or dvd the cd isn't there all the time, but the bios can be setup to boot from there.
[21:07] <len_> in this case there is no dvd because it is a netbook, so I can set up bios to boot from a usb stick/drive if there is one.
[21:08] <len_> The interesting thing is if I reboot things can change. When I want to boot from a stick I always boot from power off.
[21:09] <len_> Anyway ScottL no noticable differences from yesterday.
[21:09] <ailo> len_: The cd hardware is always existent, so it will always try to find something bootable there
[21:10] <ailo> But, if you disconnect a usb stick, it won't be there the next time
[21:10] <ttoine> bye
[21:10] <ailo> If the bios was not able to drop those usb drives that aren't always plugged in, it would be swarmed with them after a while
[21:11] <ailo> Or any hardware
[21:11] <ailo> Each time it boots, I guess it checks if the hardware still is connected as last time. If not, it just deletes the info
[21:11] <ailo> Seemd logical that way
[21:11] <ailo> Seems*
[21:37] <len_> ailo it is only one entry, it looks for any usb drive, not a particular one. I think it is because it is a netbook and a usb stick is like a floppy
[21:39] <ailo> len_: Netbooks are special only in the way that some of the hardware is unpluggable. On any other board, all removable hardware should be regarded in the same fashion
[21:39] <ailo> I mean, all removable hardware on all MB's should be regarded in the same fashion
[21:40] <ailo> Some of it bootable, some of it not
[22:30] <len_> I don't see why it would be that hard to look for usb drives and if there is one that is bootable, boot from it.
[22:30] <len_> Anyway got stuff to do...
[22:34] <ailo> len_: You're right. I've tried a few, when it comes to booting from usb, and they all behave a little different.
[23:21] <Laney> astraljava: should we sync it in for the beta?
[23:23] <Laney> astraljava: please comment on the bug indicating if you want it in now or after beta, please :-)
[23:24] <ailo> Laney: What are the biggest benefits in this upgrade, do you think? I was reading through it, and I thought that besides bug issues, enhancing the ability to import Finale and Sibelius files seemed like a big thing
[23:25] <Laney> ailo: I don't know anything about it, I'm just poking you guys as a member of the release team
[23:25] <ailo> Laney: Why do you want the upgrade?
[23:25] <ailo> Who wants it?
[23:25] <Laney> I don't want it or not. Somebody requested it.
[23:27] <Laney> if you have a problem then comment on the bug please.
[23:27] <Laney> It's an ubuntustudio package, which is why I'm asking ubuntustudio developers
[23:28] <ailo> It seemed like a good reason, that importing Finale and Sibelius files had improved. Those two softwares are market leading, so being able to import them to musescore is a good thing
[23:28] <Laney> we can either sync it now so that it will get into the beta or wait until after
[23:29] <ailo> I don't understand how all of this works, but astraljava said it build fine in Precise, so I guess what dependencies are concerned, it's ok to import
[23:31] <ailo> I guess, usually, the stuff that is upgraded is done automatically, through Ubuntu
[23:31] <ailo> ubuntustudio does not tend to specific packages, normally
[23:32] <ailo> In this case, I can see why it would be a good idea to upgrade
[23:32] <Laney> we tend to ask if it is on an image
[23:32] <Laney> thanks for your input
[23:36] <ailo> Laney: image?
[23:37] <Laney> yes, musescore is on the ubuntustudio dvd