[01:48] <Jora> hi
[01:48] <daftykins> <3
[01:48] <daftykins> nn Jor Jor
[01:49] <Jora> Goodnight daftykins
[01:59] <ball> I feel a sizeable cup of tea coming on.
[06:52] <MartijnVdS> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01f6qpq
[06:58] <meet> help me choose- ubuntu or mint? i have ubuntu up and running and using it for quite a few days. through wubi ofcourse. But mint looks good. What should i do?
[07:00] <MartijnVdS> do whatever you like.
[07:07] <meet> i got a 10 year old desktop and i was planning to install ubuntu on it. it currently has winxp but works sluggish. will it help to quicken the pc?
[07:08] <MartijnVdS> you might need to add some ram
[07:08] <MartijnVdS> how much do you have atm?
[07:11] <meet> martijnvds 512mb
[07:11] <MartijnVdS> Yeah that'll work but it won't be fast. Try adding some to get to 1 or 2 GB (if that's possible)
[07:12] <meet> i wanted to use the current specs only.
[07:12] <meet> the processor is p4 about 1.6 Ghz
[07:13] <MartijnVdS> that should be enough for a working system
[07:14] <MartijnVdS> I have a machine with 768M that's quite fast, but if you start more than 2-3 programs it slows down to a crawl because of swapping
[07:14] <meet> something like that :D Will lubuntu or xubuntu be helpful in this regard? cause i dont like unity and dont plan to use it. is xfce or those others lighter?
[07:16] <MartijnVdS> it should be, but it's not as user-friendly
[07:17] <meet> oh.. and how to run turboc compiler on ubuntu?
[07:18] <meet> in my school i got that boring compiler for c and c++ programming. So at home also i wanted to use it. Unfortunately there does not seem an easy way
[07:19] <MartijnVdS> there's gcc, g++
[07:20] <MartijnVdS> if you install the "build-essential" package, it'll pull those in as a dependency, along with the basic C library headers etc.
[07:21] <meet> ya i did that. but programming in linux and windows is proving completely different. Also i get some xinitthread() not used error when i run  some programs. So all in all its difficult.
[07:24] <MartijnVdS> What kind of programs are you trying?
[07:25] <MartijnVdS> Are you starting with "Hello world"? Do you have makefiles, etc.?
[07:25] <MartijnVdS> The language is the same, but the libraries are mostly different :)
[07:28] <meet> ya hello world worked all right. i did g++ hello.cpp and then ./a.out. No problems with that. But then for some graphics programs in which i am using the graphics.h header file i get that xinitthread errorss
[07:28] <MartijnVdS> "graphics.h"?
[07:28] <MartijnVdS> That must be part of some project
[07:29] <MartijnVdS> You might want to look at GTK if you want to write GUI programs
[07:29] <meet> we use the graphics.h header file in turboc. its inbuilt. so i set up the same header file by reading a blog post for that.
[07:30] <meet> while compiling a program using graphics.h i do the following- g++  a.cpp -lgraph
[07:31] <meet> but if multiple functions of the graphics header files are used than that errors crops up.
[07:41] <popey> turboc?
[07:41] <popey> isnt that somewhat retro these days?
[07:41] <MartijnVdS> 'tis
[07:42] <popey> ahh, india
[07:42] <MartijnVdS> it's very 90s if I remember
[07:48] <meet> martijnvds where can i find the answers?
[07:51] <popey> meet: are youi running turboc for dos or windows?
[07:54] <meet> i have not installed it currently. i am trying to use g++ and gcc after editing in gedit. but not able to do it effieciently.
[07:55] <meet> at school i think its the dos turboc. a bluescreen and dos like feel. Anyway can i use it through wine or dosbox?
[07:55] <meet> i want to be able to use the clrscr() or getch() fcuntions which i think are windows specific.
[07:57] <meet> popey what do u suggest?
[08:01] <popey> meet: you could install FreeDOS and install it under that
[08:01] <popey> or a lightweight distro light lubuntu
[08:05] <christel> morning
[08:59] <AlanBell> http://www.floriskaayk.com/ aww, it was a fake
[09:04] <popey> I'm amazed anyone thought it was real
[09:12] <meet> how do connect winxp desktop to ubuntu laptop via network. sry for the vague question
[09:19] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:40] <MartijnVdS> \o
[09:42] <brobostigon> o/
[09:44] <sagaci>  /o\
[09:47] <AlanBell> popey: the final video looked very wrong, but there was a lot of backstory created
[09:50] <AlanBell> looking at the video again it seems even more wrong
[10:36] <gord> cool idea of the day, laptop that lets you insert the really thin ubuntu mouse in the side for storage and easy access (c) gord
[10:39] <moreati> gord: http://www.amazon.com/HP-Mogo-Bluetooth-X54-Presenter/dp/B004AMRT62/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_1
[10:40] <gord> like that! still (c) gord
[11:04] <hank3three3chat> I am having problems with my username, if I stay on one computer its ok, but if I go to another computer and use the same username it won't let me log in and tells me the username is already taken, how can I get around that?
[11:06] <directhex> hank3three3chat: for IRC? not trivially
[11:07] <spych102> HUD for me is really slow, is it just me?
[11:07] <directhex> hank3three3chat: you can only have one user per nickname connected to an IRC server. the workaround is to have that one connected user be a kind of irc proxy server - sometimes called a bouncer - then all your "real" clients connect to the bouncer rather than directly to irc
[11:08] <directhex> e.g. i use bip. so i'm not connected to irc from my house - i'm connected to the work irc proxy server from my house, and i'm running bip on there which connects to networks like freenode
[11:08] <brobostigon> spych102: i am in unity-2d 5.8 here, and aslong as my machine isnt loaded, it is pretty quick.
[11:08] <directhex> which is why my whois shows pasanda.collabora.co.uk not hostfoobar.btinternet.com
[11:08] <spych102> brobostigon, i might try it in 2d
[11:09] <ali1234> unity2d is much faster than unity3d
[11:09] <brobostigon> and also, doesnt load the graphics as much.
[11:10] <spych102> i thought 3d was accelerated? misnomer?
[11:10] <ali1234> it is
[11:11] <ali1234> that's just a euphemism for "won't run at all without a 3d card"
[11:11] <hank3three3chat> directhex: now you lost me…….I have three computers, each running IRC, depending on what I am doing, depends which computer I am on, but it won't let me swap computers even if I log out of one and log into another……so now I have two usernames, which I don't want, I have no idea what tip or what it does, bit over my head…….
[11:12] <ali1234> hank3three3chat: /msg nickserv help ghost
[11:13] <spych102> i have beta 1 installed which i don't think has HUD
[11:13] <spych102> how do i upgrade?
[11:13] <spych102> or is there a ppa to install?
[11:14] <brobostigon> spych102: if you do a normal upgrade, you should get unity-*d 5.8, which has hud.
[11:14] <hank3three3chat> ok, thanks for that
[11:14] <brobostigon> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade
[11:16] <spych102> brobostigon, thanks, i  think i did that already but there was a problem and it did a partial upgrade... maybe i should just reinstall?
[11:17] <brobostigon> spych102: thats sound like there are package problems,  could you pastebin the whole output you get, please.
[11:18] <spych102> brobostigon, unity 2d can't find my terminal
[11:18] <brobostigon> spych102: alt + f2, gnome-terminal, press enter.
[11:19] <spych102> brobostigon, got it, thanks
[11:19] <brobostigon> :)
[11:20] <spych102> but unity 2d seems to find my media files better :-D
[11:21] <brobostigon> brb, need coffee, and lunch.
[11:22] <czajkowski> ubuntu uk mailing list is rather noisy on the weekend
[11:22] <czajkowski> noisy/busy/talkative
[11:26] <mattt> that's funny, most mailing lists are usually busy during office hours :)
[11:31] <spych102> brobostigon, 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 99 not upgraded is the output from my upgrade... and still no HUD...:-[
[11:33] <brobostigon> spych102: i am not a good man to help with such package issues, i know very little about them. someone else will have to help. sorry.
[11:34] <spych102> okay
[11:35] <penguin42> spych102: is that from an apt-get upgrade ?
[11:36] <spych102> yes from 12.04 beta 1
[11:36] <penguin42> spych102: Tried an apt-get dist-upgrade to see if it will get rid of the 99 stragglers?
[11:36] <spych102> doing it right now..
[11:37] <spych102> penguin42, it seems to be working, i'll let you know when it's done
[11:43] <czajkowski> popey: when you plug your iphone/ipad into your ubuntu machines does it charge normally ?
[11:51] <spych102> penguin42, it's all upgraded now and HUD is working, thanks
[11:51] <penguin42> spych102: No problem!
[11:52] <spych102> new problem: unity does not find my programs, only media files
[11:54] <spych102> lol, i searched for libreoffice in unity and it played a song with libre in the title
[12:43] <Myrtti> ahhhahhahahahaha http://imgur.com/gallery/2owN5
[12:43] <Myrtti> almost choked on a toast
[12:43] <popey> czajkowski: yes
[12:48] <czajkowski> hmm
[12:48] <czajkowski> popey: thanks
[12:49] <czajkowski> popey: I wondered as I came across this project https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/191588
[12:49] <popey> ipad != iphone
[12:50] <popey> ipad requires more current to make it charge
[12:50] <popey> many computers don't deliver enough because the USB spec says they dont have to
[12:50] <ali1234> how can that be overcome with software?
[12:50] <popey> i have no idea
[12:50] <ali1234> there must be something more to it
[12:51] <popey> looks like some devices have configurable current delivery
[12:51] <popey> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1504845
[12:51] <penguin42> ali1234: The amount delivered by a port can be determined by the host I think; I know blackberrys didn't charge unless the host did something
[12:52] <ali1234> usb devices can have multiple profiles
[12:52] <penguin42> actually, I think it's whether the device asks for it
[12:52] <ali1234> self powered vs host powered
[12:52] <ali1234> it's up to the host to pick the profile... the device can't directly ask for anything, just give options
[12:52] <ali1234> so i guess that's what is happening here
[12:53] <ali1234> lsusb -vvv if you want to see all that stuff :)
[12:57] <ali1234> if you plug in a ipad and run lsusb -vvv -d vendor:product | grep bNumConfigurations
[12:57] <ali1234> you might see it has more than 1
[12:57] <bigcalm_lappy> Good afternoon peeps :)
[12:57] <quackers> o/ all
[12:58] <bigcalm_lappy> What The Font is a good utility. Is there one for free fonts?
[12:58] <ali1234> looking at the source, it doesn't work like that. it requires a special command sent to the ipad
[12:59] <ali1234> bigcalm_lappy: i use identifont
[12:59] <ali1234> but, i don't think it has free fonts either
[12:59] <ali1234> but since nobody uses them and they are all terrible anyway...
[13:00] <hank3three3chat> I have a netbook, that doesn't have much ram, it works with 11.10 ok, but its very slow and can only tolerate having one program open before it goes slow, just wondered, how do you install xubuntu on it?
[13:00] <bigcalm_lappy> Sod it, this logo will get the Ubuntu Light treatment  :D
[13:00] <ali1234> what logo?
[13:01] <ali1234> also if you dont know the font how do you know it;s free?
[13:01] <ali1234> or do you just want the most similar free font?
[13:01] <ali1234> also if you have a nice big logo, just trace it and then clean it up
[13:50] <bigcalm_lappy> ali1234: reproducing the logo with a similar font was the idea. Have decided to use Ubuntu Light and it fits quite nicely. I'm not being paid to do this, so less work is better
[15:05] <popey> quiet in here today ☺
[15:05] <popey> i might spark the bbq up again later
[15:05] <brobostigon> :)
[15:05] <MartijnVdS> BBQitis ;)
[15:06] <popey> well I bought 8 burgers, 8 sausages, 8 chicken kebabs.. we ate half of it all yesterday
[15:06] <popey> could freeze them I guess, get them out again next weekend
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> refreeze or just freeze?
[15:06] <gordonjcp> I want to go outside and do stuff
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> refrozen meat = yuk
[15:06] <gordonjcp> but I've been out all afternoon and am now too hot
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: I did a 1-hour run in the sun today. I'm a bit red :)
[15:07] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: I've been outside, starting stuff
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: in the 'hood?
[15:07] <gordonjcp> I could sit inside and have some tea for an hour, while the Citroën charges up
[15:07] <popey> MartijnVdS: its not frozen
[15:07] <popey> so freeze
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> popey: Nah, BBQ is good for you :)
[15:08] <gordonjcp> I could then start that
[15:08] <popey> the burgers came frozen, so they're in the freezer
[15:08] <gordonjcp> I need to split up the 1.5kg of mince I bought yesterday
[15:08] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: Citroen charges up? You have an electric Citroen?
[15:08] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: no, just the battery for starting it
[15:09] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: ah :)
[15:09] <gordonjcp> I haven't driven it for about a year and now it's run out of electricity
[15:09] <MartijnVdS> They do that..
[15:09] <gordonjcp> annoyingly it's nose-in
[15:09] <gordonjcp> so I can't even get the van round to jump start it
[15:10] <gordonjcp> I tried charging it from the genny but it's drawing too much current and trips it out
[15:10] <MartijnVdS> So now you're on an exercise bicycle, charging the battery? ;)
[15:10] <gordonjcp> no, I'm sitting inside out of the sun drinking tea and looking for a battery charger
[15:11] <gordonjcp> and contemplating getting a motorbike licence
[15:11] <MartijnVdS> mid-life crisis time ;)
[15:12] <gordonjcp> petrol price crisis time
[15:12] <gordonjcp> much as I love driving around in the CX, at 32mpg it's a bit heavy for day-to-day use
[15:13] <MartijnVdS> ah, my Smart does ~45ish
[15:13] <gordonjcp> I have a diesel van but it's thirsty as hell
[15:14] <gordonjcp> I specced a Citroën Dispatch with the 2-litre engine and 6-speed box, but the company bought the 1.6 with 5-speed box
[15:14] <MartijnVdS> \o/ Smart, except it's tiny
[15:14] <gordonjcp> because it was cheaper and "the smaller engine would be better on fuel"
[15:14] <gordonjcp> yeah
[15:14] <gordonjcp> unless you drive long distances
[15:14] <MartijnVdS> and people on motorways will just "forget" you're there
[15:14] <gordonjcp> like, um, me
[15:14] <gordonjcp> so in day-to-day use it gets about 30mph, dropping to 25 on the motorway
[15:15] <MartijnVdS> But if the company bought the van, don't they also pay for fuel?
[15:15] <gordonjcp> they do, but I tend not to take the piss if I'm doing personal miles in it
[15:16] <MartijnVdS> ah, understandable
[15:16] <gordonjcp> so I'm thinking about putting it back to being a pool vehicle and not paying company car taxes
[15:17] <MartijnVdS> I seldom go to (or from) work by car. \o/ proper train service
[15:17] <gordonjcp> heh
[15:17] <gordonjcp> yeah, I get that a lot
[15:17] <gordonjcp> "ZOMG you shouldn't drive around use public transport"
[15:17] <gordonjcp> righto
[15:17] <MartijnVdS> Doesn't work for all kinds of work though, I agree
[15:17] <gordonjcp> will do, how do you fancy coming with me to carry the 700kg of test equipment?
[15:19] <ali1234> 700kg? are you testing elephants?
[15:19] <gordonjcp> ali1234: I have literally a vanload of test gear, tools and spares
[15:19] <gordonjcp> at the moment it's mostly empty
[15:20] <gordonjcp> next week I have to pretty much decant half the workshop into my van
[15:20] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: put a wifi access point in it, "Police Surveillance Van #432"
[15:20] <MartijnVdS> (SSID)
[15:20] <gordonjcp> heh
[15:20] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: I told you about the "secret CCTV spy vans"?
[15:21] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: TV Licence Check Van
[15:21] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: the local council have some security guys
[15:22] <gordonjcp> they do stuff like drive around council housing estates, direct traffic at football matches, things like that
[15:22] <gordonjcp> stuff that it would be a waste of time for the police to do
[15:22] <MartijnVdS> I know the kind.
[15:23] <gordonjcp> so the Daily Record published a story ranting about how the council were deploying "SECRET SPY CCTV VANS" to spy on football fans and what a disgrace it was
[15:23] <gordonjcp> a month or so later
[15:24] <gordonjcp> the Daily Record published a story saying that the council had deployed a "State-of-the-Art Covert Surveillance Vehicle" to monitor the Occupy protestors in Blythswood Square
[15:24] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: A white van?
[15:24] <gordonjcp> mostly
[15:24] <gordonjcp> let me just find a pic
[15:24] <gordonjcp> https://picasaweb.google.com/109321528270428317785/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCMTP3aG7y4SfjwE&feat=directlink#5682689893956175202
[15:25] <gordonjcp> if it wasn't for the snow you'd see the words "CCTV VEHICLE" across the roof above the windscreen
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> If that's state of the art and secret/covert..
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> they're not even trying
[15:25] <gordonjcp> it's very advanced
[15:25] <gordonjcp> it has two 3G modems, a kettle and a microwave
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> _2_ 3G modems. In case one of the networks flakes out?
[15:26] <gordonjcp> well one is for internet access, one is for the IP cameras
[15:26] <gordonjcp> it's pretty cool, they can route video from moving vans to and from the control room
[15:26] <gordonjcp> and out to their bus in the picture
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> that's cool
[15:26] <gordonjcp> yeah, saves a lot of time
[15:26] <gordonjcp> "Right, it's that guy with the blue jacket"
[15:26] <gordonjcp> "Most of them have blue jackets"
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> but it's not quite secret, with the reflecting line on it and all
[15:27] <gordonjcp> "Well the guy with the blue jacket and the - aw, fuck it, <clickety> *that* guy..."
[15:27] <gordonjcp> well yeah, tbh it wouldn't be my first choice as a covert surveillance vehicle
[15:27] <gordonjcp> I'd go for a rusty white transit
[15:28] <gordonjcp> maybe red, with shinier bits where the Post Office vinyl-cut has been removed
[15:28] <MartijnVdS> "FREE CANDY" written on the side
[15:29] <MartijnVdS> I've seen the inside of one of those TV "mobile reporting" vans (with the satellite dish on top) once. They have LOTS of VERY cool gear.
[15:29] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: yeah, I know a guy who drives one
[15:29] <gordonjcp> nice stuff
[15:29] <gordonjcp> when he's bored he uses the link dish and spectrum analyser as a radio telescope ;-)
[15:30] <MartijnVdS> 8-)
[15:30]  * MartijnVdS hates gnome-dvb-daemon a bit more
[15:31] <MartijnVdS> they've finally fixed the driver for my satellite card
[15:31] <mgdm> I keep meaning to ask the guy at work for a tour of our one
[15:31] <MartijnVdS> now the userspace software is annoying :)
[15:32] <ali1234> why would you even use that?
[15:32] <ali1234> use mythtv
[15:34] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Doesn't that require my machine to be a dedicated MythTV thing?
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: I just want a window with a video stream..
[15:35] <ali1234> you need to install mythbackend
[15:35] <ali1234> so yes, in the sense that your machine is currently a dedicated dbus server and X server
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Backend, that's not frontend.
[15:36] <ali1234> yes you need to install mythfrontend too
[15:36]  * MartijnVdS tries
[15:36] <MartijnVdS> MYSQL-SERVER?!
[15:37] <ali1234> yeah so what?
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> (a) it'
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> s mysql
[15:37] <ali1234> it's better than couchdb
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: sqlite++
[15:37] <ali1234> sqlite is slooooooooooooooooooow
[15:37] <popey> damning with feint praise there ali1234 ☺
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> now it's asking me for a mysql root pw
[15:37] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[15:38] <ali1234> popey: maybe, but nobody blinks if you ask them to install couchdb just to be able to tweet some lolcats or something
[15:39] <ali1234> i can understand why twitter needs a database to run their website, i can't understand why gwibber needs one
[15:39] <AlanBell> gwibber didn't use couchdb in anything like a sensible way
[15:39] <ali1234> afaict couchdb is designed only to be used in non-sensible ways
[15:41] <mgdm> thunderbird reckons I received 5869 new messages there
[15:41] <mgdm> no, I didn't
[15:44] <AlanBell> couchdb didn't turn out how I expected it to
[15:44] <AlanBell> gwibber and Ubuntu One used it in such strange ways I am not surprised that neither of them worked out
[15:46] <AlanBell> the way they were doing it was kind of like storing a novel in an ext4 directory as millions of zero byte files with the content in the filenames and ls of the directory to read the file
[15:47] <ali1234> hmmmmm how do i figure out what order css directives get applied in?
[15:49] <mgdm> ali1234: the algorithm is sadly quite complex
[15:49] <ali1234> so i;ve got two directives
[15:49] <mgdm> ali1234: though Firebug in Firefox/Chrome's developer tools/Chromium's equivalent give you enough of an idea
[15:49] <ali1234> #widgets li {...} and li.myclass {...}
[15:50] <ali1234> and the former overrides the latter
[15:50] <mgdm> yes, due to specificity
[15:50] <mgdm> identifying something by an ID is more specific than by a class
[15:50] <ali1234> ironcially, the former applies to a lot more things than the latter
[15:51] <ali1234> #widgets ul {...} means all <ul> inside a element with ID #widgets?
[15:51] <mgdm> would making the latter '#widgets li.myclass' break other things?
[15:51] <mgdm> yes
[15:51] <ali1234> ok so i just need to do my custom CSS the same way then
[15:52] <ali1234> er, what you said shouldn't break anything
[15:53] <ali1234> it might break my plugin from working with other themes actually
[15:53] <ali1234> i don't think wordpress ever sets IDs, it sets classes on everything
[15:53] <mgdm> Oh, WP
[15:53] <ali1234> yeah so basically i'm making a wordpress plugin and i want it to work with any theme
[15:54] <ali1234> but it needs custom CSS to do what it does
[15:54] <mgdm> ah yes
[15:54] <mgdm> a reasonable request
[15:54] <ali1234> so i need to say "ignore the theme, do this"
[15:55] <ali1234> i will just set by hand IDs on the widget html
[15:55] <ali1234> actually that won't work because it's the <li> i need to override
[15:55] <ali1234> and there's obviously more than one of those
[15:56] <ali1234> ah but i can do exactly what theyve done... ok
[15:56]  * mgdm plays CSS Suxx
[15:56] <mgdm> or I would, if spotify hadn't removed it
[15:57] <mgdm> grrr
[16:00] <ali1234> well that didn't work
[16:01] <ali1234> and also it broke all the existing styling
[16:06] <ali1234> ah ! important
[16:06] <ali1234> seems to be what i need
[16:07] <ali1234> oh hang on, they have to be otherwise equal
[16:07] <ali1234> aaaaah. i get it now
[16:07] <ali1234> that's stupid :(
[16:08] <ali1234> but i can fix it
[16:09] <ali1234> argh now it doesn't work at all
[16:11] <ali1234> i need to insert an extra div to hold all my elements, just so that i can have an extra element selector in the rule, so that it will be "more specific"
[16:17] <mgdm> yes
[16:17] <mgdm> it sucks
[16:18] <mgdm> also, !important is hilarious - to anyone with even half a coding brain, it looks like "not important"
[16:18] <ali1234> they should have made it imporant!!!!
[16:18] <ali1234> where more !  wine
[16:18] <ali1234> *wins
[16:18] <mgdm> hehe
[16:18] <BigRedS> more wine?
[16:18] <ali1234> then it would have actually been useful
[16:18] <MartijnVdS> ! is a bottle in nethack :)
[16:18] <ali1234> because the chances of two ules being "otherwise equal" is virtual zero anyway
[16:21] <ali1234> wait hang on
[16:21] <penguin42> Tis lovely out thre
[16:23] <spych102> MKU.x123
[16:25] <daubers> Afternoon
[16:30] <ali1234> display:inline-block;
[16:30] <ali1234> why have i never seen that before?
[16:34] <MartijnVdS> because you value your sanity?
[16:34] <ali1234> "and i thought php coding was bad"
[16:56] <SuperEngineer> o/
[16:57] <SuperEngineer> Having installed 12.04 beta1... will the updates automatically take me the equivalent of beta2 & final release?
[16:57] <penguin42> yeh
[16:58] <SuperEngineer> Thanks penguin42 - I'm sure it's been asked 100's of times b4 - forgive my ignorance  pretty please
[16:58] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: You occasionally get a few corners that aren't quite tidied up, but it normally does
[17:00] <SuperEngineer> Do I need to change update sources come final release [to align with actual Precise release?
[17:00] <brobostigon> no.
[17:00] <SuperEngineer> weee!   thanks a mil
[17:18] <spych102> SuperEngineer I had to dist-upgrade to update all my packages
[17:22] <SuperEngineer> spych102: woops! [that is what I suspected, tho - that or realligning software sources]
[17:23] <spych102> i'm not sure that's the way it's supposed to work though...
[17:23] <SuperEngineer> ...although that does conflict with brobostigon 's statement
[17:23] <ali1234> you're always spposed to dist-upgrade on ubuntu
[17:24] <ali1234> you don't have to edit sources.list
[17:24] <spych102> thanks ali1234
[17:24] <SuperEngineer> thanks ali1234
[17:24] <ali1234> apt-get dist-upgrade is like apt-get upgrade except it can remove packages
[17:25] <ali1234> dist-upgrade isn't actually a distribution upgrade
[17:26] <Nafallo> not true. the always dist-upgrade.
[17:26] <Nafallo> upgrade is the correct usual case.
[17:27] <ali1234> oh there's a factoid
[17:27] <ali1234> !dist-upgrade
[17:27] <spych102> so what is used to upgrade between distributions then
[17:27] <Nafallo> spych102: do-release-upgrade
[17:27] <ali1234> sudo do-release-upgrade
[17:27] <ali1234> !upgrade
[17:27] <ali1234> hmm that's not really very explanatory
[17:27] <Nafallo> there was a recent case where a dist-upgrade would have removed ubuntu-desktop, unity and most of compiz.
[17:28] <SuperEngineer> even from the beta installs?
[17:28] <Nafallo> so for unstable systems, dist-upgrade can be a killer ;-)
[17:28] <BigRedS> well, everything can
[17:28] <spych102> i know so little after so many years with ubuntu...
[17:28] <BigRedS> that's why they're described as 'unstable'
[17:28] <Nafallo> upgrade would hold the packages that try to remove stuff instead :-P
[17:28] <Nafallo> just saying
[17:29] <popey> yeah, i am more careful about dist-upgrading within a dev release
[17:29] <popey> archive skew can end up with unity/compiz getting removed
[17:29] <Nafallo> my standard command is sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get -dy dist-upgrade
[17:29] <Nafallo> -dy = download only, answer yes
[17:30] <Nafallo> that shows me what the system wants to do, AND grab all the things it might want to do ;-)
[17:30] <spych102> then how do you apply the updates?
[17:30] <Nafallo> depends on the updates.
[17:31] <Nafallo> either apt-get install <package>, apt-get install upgrade or apt-get install dist-upgrade
[17:31] <Nafallo> OR I just use the nice graphical update-manager ;-)
[17:31] <popey> with fewer installs in those lines
[17:31] <Nafallo> on servers I tend to use either apt-get install for just a few packages, or go aptitude if it's more.
[17:32] <Nafallo> oh. quite right popey ;-)
[17:32] <Nafallo> either apt-get install <package>, apt-get upgrade or apt-get dist-upgrade
[17:32] <Nafallo> there!
[17:32] <spych102> i think i'd rather chance it and reinstall
[17:32] <popey> chance what?
[17:33] <Nafallo> chance loosing things :-P
[17:33] <popey> oh
[17:33] <spych102> removing the desktop, unity and compiz
[17:33] <popey> it wont if you read what it says on the screen
[17:33] <spych102> i never do that
[17:33] <popey> and if you "sudo apt-get update" and "sudo apt-get upgrade" it definitely wont
[17:33] <Nafallo> reinstall is a hell of a lot more drastic. that would clear all files you have :-P
[17:33] <spych102> but i have a separate /home
[17:34] <Nafallo> unencrypted? ;-)
[17:34] <popey> ☹  people dont do upgrades
[17:34] <popey> they thus aren't testing them
[17:34] <popey> so dont file bugs
[17:34] <popey> so they never get fixed
[17:34] <Nafallo> hmm
[17:34] <popey> so people complain that upgrades don't work
[17:34] <popey> self perpetuating spiral of fail
[17:35] <Nafallo> I do upgrade, but then fix stuff myself before bothering people... I should fix that.
[17:35] <Nafallo> but then again, I'm tempted to just use LTS for a while ;-)
[17:35] <Nafallo> once precise lands fully.
[17:37] <Nafallo> hmm. there are a lot of packages it wants to upgrade on my netbook, and last time I did, it broke :-/
[17:37] <penguin42> popey: Lots of people in +1 having problems with the upgrade
[17:37] <penguin42> but it's very difficult to test; so many combinations of different packages people have installed
[17:38] <popey> there's a problem with unity/compiz right now
[17:38] <popey> people are recommended to use unity2d for now
[17:38] <popey> until tomorrow
[17:38] <Nafallo> popey: is this the screen flickering?
[17:38] <popey> some people get black screen
[17:38] <Nafallo> hmm
[17:39]  * SuperEngineer hits screen to see if it flickers -nope -not even then!
[17:40] <Nafallo> popey: so yeah. I updated shit and went all... let's revert, then apt-btrfs-snapshot wasn't about to move to an earlier snapshot for some reason and stuff broke for realz :-P
[17:40]  * SuperEngineer turns screen upside done to see if compiz drops out the case.... nope~ still no fault found
[17:40] <Nafallo> s/about/able/
[17:40] <Nafallo> I manage to fix it though, eventually.
[17:40] <Nafallo> I'm good at fixing broken Ubuntus ;-)
[17:41] <Nafallo> I've had lots of practise
[17:41] <SuperEngineer> Nafallo: then why so bugs still listed.... go fix 'em!
[17:41] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[17:41] <Nafallo> well. I might get more involved in the community again at some point...
[17:42] <pr0ph3t> hi all
[17:42] <Nafallo> right now finding a new flat and a new job are higher on my priority list
[17:42] <Nafallo> hi pr0ph3t
[17:42] <pr0ph3t> is anyone using gnome-shell on Ubuntu 12.04?
[17:44] <pr0ph3t> I am guessing I'm in the completely wrong channel
[17:44] <spych102> ...tumbleweed...
[17:44] <Nafallo> not the wrong channel, I wouldn't say.
[17:45] <popey> I'm sure someone somewhere is
[17:46] <pr0ph3t> me :-)
[17:52] <BigRedS> I am, but not right now
[17:53] <BigRedS> I installed it, but I thought I'd give Unity another go today, since apparently it's sobered up in several areas since I last tried it
[17:57] <Nafallo> popey: so, is it just compiz and unity I need to hold off upgrading?
[17:57] <Nafallo> popey: i.e. stuff like the gconf split should be fine?
[17:58] <popey> what compiz and unity releases you on?
[17:59] <Nafallo> nafallo@parakeet:~$ dpkg -l compiz unity | grep ^ii | awk '{print $2,$3}'
[17:59] <Nafallo> compiz 1:0.9.7.0+bzr3035-0ubuntu1
[17:59] <Nafallo> unity 5.6.0-0ubuntu4
[17:59] <popey> yeah, keep them
[18:01] <Nafallo> popey: how about nux?
[18:03] <popey> I'd keep that back too
[18:03] <Nafallo> yeah. I assumed so :-)
[18:03]  * Nafallo upgrades bits of his netbook instead of all ;-)
[18:03] <SuperEngineer> I am not the world's biggest unity fan & therefore [perhaps]  I shouldn't like 12.04 *but* - I replaced 11.10 with it & am getting interested [though 10.04 is till my staple diet on same pooter]
[18:04] <SuperEngineer> with the addition of Cairo Dock -it is odg so far
[18:04] <SuperEngineer> *pdg
[18:05] <SuperEngineer> - & I'm impressed with the speed of change from crash or freeze or fail to now working ok - it's still 1st beta!
[18:07] <SuperEngineer> ...if only the apps [not core] could be fixed at same speed
[18:07] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: Some things which look horribly broken are actually one simple problem - and the other way!
[18:07] <SuperEngineer> penguin42:  agreed
[18:08]  * penguin42 hands SuperEngineer a good text editor and compiler
[18:09]  * SuperEngineer is overcome by penguin42's generosity - so overcome that  the blushes themselves are blushing
[18:10] <penguin42> ahhh shucks
[18:19] <ali1234> why would you run cairo dock in unity?
[18:19] <ali1234> why even keep unity?
[18:19] <Azelphur> I run cairo-dock without unity xD
[18:20] <ali1234> it's like saying KDE is pretty good if you use gnome-panel with it
[18:20] <gordonjcp> the thing that bugs me about Unity is the annoying way it "stacks" multiple windows in the buttons down the side
[18:20] <gordonjcp> it's hard enough to tell what they are
[18:20] <ali1234> all docks do that
[18:21] <ali1234> which is why i boggle whenever someone claims cairo-dock is better than unity
[18:22] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: i got too used to [app menu as a global check] & especially the weather  info in nitification area -still missing from from unity
[18:22] <ali1234> i don't understand
[18:23] <SuperEngineer> ...& the ability to one click "restart" in 10.04 - not poss 12.04 till you choose "shutdown"... Spock says - but that's illogical Captain!
[18:23] <ali1234> of course it is
[18:23] <ali1234> shutdown vs shutdown and then start again
[18:24] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: did you try my window quicklists thing?
[18:25] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: no, what was that?
[18:25] <SuperEngineer> I choose shutdown to restart Captain? When I used to state "restart"? No! [Spock has a fit]
[18:25] <AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2012/03/16/unity-window-quicklists/
[18:27] <SuperEngineer> check notification area for waether in area he's off to travel to each day... "but it's not there Captain"!  [Spoke has an emotionalcrisis]
[18:27] <gordonjcp> W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/alanbell/unity/ubuntu/dists/oneiric/main/source/Sources
[18:27] <AlanBell> ah, sorry, precise only at the moment
[18:27] <gordonjcp> ah, I can't run precise
[18:27] <AlanBell> and there is an api call I am using that isn't in oneiric
[18:28] <gordonjcp> I've only got 2G of RAM
[18:28] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: therefore.... SuperEngineer uses Cairo Dock in 12.04.... simples ;)
[18:31] <gordonjcp> is precise going to be less memory-hungry when it's finished?
[18:31] <ali1234> SuperEngineer: but that's not my original question... why do you use cairo-dock with unity? why don't you use cario-dock *without* unity?
[18:33] <SuperEngineer> ali1234: coz I leave Unity active for the seldom used but "wanted in a hurry when wanted" apps... the rest I leave to Cairo
[18:33] <SuperEngineer> .me just saw AlanBell 's quicklists thing....  & wonders wht AlanBell doesn't go to Canonical & collect his reward [whist kicking them where it makes them go "ouch!" for not including it in release!!!!
[18:35]  * AlanBell looks forward to the all expenses paid trip to California
[18:35] <AlanBell> oh look, there it is :) \o/
[18:36] <BigRedS> haha
[18:36] <SuperEngineer> AlanBell: did you here them go "ouch" ?
[18:36] <BigRedS> There I was, expecting an explanation that that's just not how free software works :)
[18:37] <AlanBell> I think they are maintaining that the alt-tab behavior of raising all the wrong windows just doesn't exist
[18:37] <AlanBell> and that clicking on a launcher item doesn't raise all the windows, just the most recent one
[18:37] <BigRedS> it doesn't *always* get it wrong
[18:37] <SuperEngineer> a kiss/lick in the **** is better than none.... i.e. free!
[18:37] <BigRedS> that's half the fun
[18:38] <ali1234> yeah half the time it doesn't do that
[18:40]  * SuperEngineer hums "how many alt-tabs must a man walk down"
[18:42] <ali1234> http://phrogz.net/css/vertical-align/index.html :C
[18:48] <SuperEngineer> Looking back at my previous [in case y'all think it's a whinge] may I point out that  I refuse to "whinge" at stuff people work hard to creatre & to provide with good intent, that is "free as in dinner" as well as "free as in freedom".  I maintain my right to constructive critique is all.
[18:48] <ali1234> whinge all you want
[18:50] <SuperEngineer> ok - whinge I will... why isn't the weather perfect? - why do people insist on shoppping at the same time I do?  ...and as to the state ogf modern governments - well makes I spit!
[18:51] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[18:52] <SuperEngineer> ...and don't even ask me about taxation... :D
[18:52] <BigRedS> I maintain my right to rant
[18:52] <SuperEngineer> +1
[18:54] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: Up here in Manchester, the weather today was pretty much perfect
[18:56] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: see- you're making me whinge again!  it's not perfect here in Glos. - sometimes at least 1/2 degree too hot, sometimes at least 1/2 degree too cold!
[18:57] <SuperEngineer> ....now the sun's going down!
[18:57] <penguin42> SuperEngineer: See, we even managed some sun for the queen this time around, to make up for completely soaking her at the Common Wealth games a few years ago
[18:57] <SuperEngineer> grr
[18:57] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: [perhaps she was grateful for the free bath]
[18:58] <penguin42> haha
[19:00] <diplo> evening all
[19:02] <SuperEngineer> *don't* miss the oportunity folks - if sky is clear where you are - look up in direction of the moon
[19:03] <SuperEngineer> venus, jupiter & moon forming an 'L' plate - - you'd think they'd had enough lessons by now ;)
[19:14] <gordonjcp> :-)
[19:15] <gordonjcp> and if you're up around 5am tomorrow, look out for the ISS
[19:15] <gordonjcp> just after 6am on the 28th it will be by far the brightest thing in the sky
[19:15] <SuperEngineer> [if no satellite debris beats us to it]
[19:16]  * daubers really needs a new telescope
[19:16]  * MartijnVdS saw a zig-zag line in the skies earlier
[19:17] <MartijnVdS> Just a short stretch of zig-zag white in a blue sky
[19:17]  * SuperEngineer hands daubers a virtual telescope & MartijnVdS a virtual bottle of eye wash
[19:17] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: I'll upload the pic I took with my EOS :)
[19:18] <SuperEngineer> ...& MartijnVdS  a virtual box of lens cleaner
[19:20] <SuperEngineer> [on *my* planet we see loads of zig-zag lines in the sky... but they still can't find us!!!!
[19:21] <SuperEngineer> [life is better on *my* planet]
[19:21]  * SuperEngineer hopes GCHQ ain't monitoring!
[19:21] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: 90%..
[19:22] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: http://imgur.com/YasE2
[19:23] <SuperEngineer> oh... that! soz, that was me on a quicky back home to *my* planet
[19:23] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[19:24] <SuperEngineer> though some might say it was a piece of debris burning up in atmoshere.... or  a militia experiment?
[19:24] <SuperEngineer> *atmosphere
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: it stayed there for several minutes
[19:25] <SuperEngineer> ...or N. Korea missile [sorry, sattelite launcher] being tested?
[19:25] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: visible in the Netherlands. Likely story.
[19:25] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: It's in the west too, so it must be something you Brits did.
[19:26] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: nah, surely not! what have Netherlands done to upset N. korea?
[19:27] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: Exist? Not be communist?
[19:27] <SuperEngineer> well - what did you expect then? provacation!
[19:28] <SuperEngineer> [although I suppose it could be air-to-air missile combat training]
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: nah, that's to the north from here, and too far away.
[19:29] <SuperEngineer> slowest missile around if it was, as well!
[19:29] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: It looks a bit like that crack the Doctor found in Amy's bedroom.
[19:29] <SuperEngineer> hey... this is a family channel!
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[19:33]  * jacobw restarts compiz
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: again..
[19:34] <jacobw> ja
[19:35] <jacobw> i still prefer unity to shell :|
[19:35] <jacobw> ++hud
[19:35] <MartijnVdS> hud--
[19:35] <MartijnVdS> messing up my Alt
[19:36] <jacobw> hold your alt
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> no!
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> sometimes I press alt in error
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> then the HUD pops up
[19:36] <popey> ditto
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> then I turn off the HUD.
[19:37] <ali1234> &hud = 0;
[19:38] <ali1234> i turned off the windows key short cut too
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> as long as alt+f2 still works
[19:38] <ali1234> it does :)
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> because that was a problem earlier.. turn of HUD, lose ALL alt shortcuts
[19:39] <ali1234> i wish there was an option to make that appear instead of the dash when you click the bfb
[19:39] <MartijnVdS> As if they don't test their commits before releasing them :(
[19:39] <jacobw> what's the state of asterisk on ubuntu server?
[19:39] <jacobw> (i'm aware of #ubuntu-server, and of Daviey)
[19:46] <SuperEngineer> Scientists identity a genetic variant that turns mild flu into a life-threatening illness. [they call it "the idiot who coughs all over you"]
[19:46] <christel> 7
[19:46] <christel> e3r
[19:48] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: doesn't that mean you can kill those people in self-defence and get off free?
[19:49] <DJones> the cloudprint app on ubuntu server
[19:49] <SuperEngineer> hmmm - never thought of that - perhaps it's time to "beta" test the theory ;)
[19:49] <DJones> Does anybody use the cloudprint app on ubuntu server
[19:53] <MartijnVdS> cloudprint app?
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> isn't that part of Gnome?
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> ur
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> Chrome*
[19:57] <amarcolino> hi just did a clean install of 11.10 with lvm, however, on boot the lvm partitions arean't activated/mounted unless I manually do vgchange -a y, would like to know how to automate this for every boot or how to go about sorting this issue?
[20:00] <DJones> MartijnVdS: Sort of, but there is a terminal based app so you don't need a gui & chrome installed
[20:01] <MartijnVdS> DJones: there is? cool.
[20:01] <DJones> MartijnVdS: http://packages.ubuntu.com/oneiric/cloudprint
[20:01] <DJones> Just getting my tablet so I can print
[20:05] <SuperEngineer> anyone found a way of using CryptKeeper in 12.04?
[20:10] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Matt Daubney] Reading Hackspace Door Entry System - http://daubers.co.uk/2012/03/25/reading-hackspace-door-entry-system/
[20:13] <SuperEngineer> as in bug #bug #963522
[20:33]  * SuperEngineer is now catching up on Linux Outlaws podcasts... bfn... luv to all  & have fun --= & virtual smiles to y'all :-)
[21:51]  * popey points AlanBell at https://bugs.launchpad.net/df-libreoffice/+bug/1/comments/1647
[21:52] <popey> AlanBell: i emailed him and pointed him at the a11y list fwiw
[22:10] <mgdm> Oh, hello
[22:10] <mgdm> I just discovered the windows key + W expose-style thing
[22:10] <mgdm> that's quite cool
[22:26] <BigRedS> I just pressed it and I've no idea what happened
[22:27] <BigRedS> It is, I think, what a DE would see if it's life flashed before its eyes
[22:27] <mgdm> well, it's about 1 in 10 that Unity will crash :P
[22:27] <BigRedS> Yeah, I just did it again and I think it went right that time
[22:27] <mgdm> but on mine it gave me thumbnails of all my open windows
[22:27] <BigRedS> like gnome3's win key
[22:28] <mgdm> I've not played much with gnome-shell, so I can't compare (I have it on a netbook, but binned it in favour of LXDE)
[22:31] <BigRedS> Ah, I've been a bit of a DE whore recently
[22:31] <BigRedS> Now I'm annoyed with all of them :)
[22:32] <ali1234> http://www.webdevout.net/test?01x
[22:33] <ali1234> i hate css
[22:34] <mgdm> I've learned to hate CSS over a period of approximately 10 years
[22:34] <mgdm> it's quite a well-developed hatred, now
[22:34] <BigRedS> I don't think anybody *likes* it
[22:34] <mgdm> that's why I do the back-end of web development - I might spend a lot of time using PHP and MySQL, but at least for the most part I don't have to deal with ^%(%ing CSS
[22:35] <mgdm> (and the various bugs and 'features' of its implementations)
[22:36] <ali1234> opacity is really broken
[22:36] <ali1234> opacity+hover that is
[22:36] <BigRedS> Oh, I grumble when I need to write PHP
[22:36] <ali1234> if you want to change opacity on hover, you can do that
[22:36]  * mgdm is mgdm at php dot net, so based on that evidence doesn't hate it that muc
[22:37] <ali1234> but if you have another element over it, the hover won't pass through unless the element is nested, and then it inherits opacity
[22:37] <mgdm> I'm not under any illusions, though
[22:37] <BigRedS> mgdm: yeah, I remember your odd taste in programming lanugages :)
[22:37] <BigRedS> I wrote a bunch of perl for our web devs to use to interfere with our systems, and then they reminded me that what they actually wanted was some php functions :/
[22:37] <mgdm> it's terrible. I'm writing Python right now, FFS.
[22:37] <ali1234> so you can't have an image, then a transparent div that changes on mouse over, and then none transparent text, all stacked
[22:38] <ali1234> wait, does CSS support RGBA?
[22:38] <mgdm> yes
[22:39] <mgdm> in modern browsers, at least
[22:39] <mgdm> background-color: rgba(0, 1, 0.5, 0) I believe
[22:39] <ali1234> ok so maybe i can do it that way and it won't be inherited
[22:40] <mgdm> apparently, and this might shock you, but IE may not support it
[22:40] <mgdm> http://24ways.org/2009/working-with-rgba-colour
[22:40] <mgdm> that is from 2009, though
[22:41] <ali1234> hahaha
[22:42] <ali1234> rg and b are ints and a is a float
[22:42] <mgdm> Oh
[22:42] <mgdm> I've been doing too much cairo
[22:42] <ali1234> so you have to say rgba(0,127,255,0.5);
[22:42] <mgdm> so RGB are probably all 0 -> 255, then?
[22:42] <ali1234> this is so stupid
[22:43] <ali1234> who comes up with this stuff, hnestly?
[22:43] <mgdm> I don't know
[22:43] <mgdm> I wish I knew
[22:43] <mgdm> then I would have someone I could make a voodoo doll of
[22:43] <ali1234> it does work however
[22:43] <mgdm> \o/
[22:44] <ali1234> ie can get stuffed
[22:44] <mgdm> I've been redoing my own site, and using lesscss.org for it
[22:45] <mgdm> which makes CSS marginally less painful, because you can do things like define a colour once, and reference it everywhere
[22:45] <mgdm> and nest declarations, and have mixins, and such
[22:45] <mgdm> I'm of the opinion that the WHATWG or whoever should just lift that as CSS4
[22:48] <BigRedS> ooh
[22:48] <BigRedS> that's quite neat
[22:48] <mgdm> yes, it is, very
[22:48] <mgdm> I have it embedded in a deployment process at work, so you can write LESS and it makes actual real CSS by the time you it staging
[22:49] <mgdm> there are others (SASS, SCSS, etc) but none of them are quite so elegant
[22:57] <ali1234> http://dev.drumoff.tv/?v=177
[22:57] <ali1234> \o/ yeah
[22:57] <ali1234> mouse over the voting block
[22:57] <ali1234> now i've got it working i don't even like it
[22:57] <mgdm> Forbidden
[22:57] <mgdm> You don't have permission to access / on this server.
[22:57] <BigRedS> It's verboten :(
[22:58] <ali1234> try now :)
[22:58] <mgdm> that works