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meetingologyMeeting started Mon Mar 26 18:03:22 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.18:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired18:03
jdstrandThe meeting agenda can be found at:18:03
jdstrand[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting18:03
jdstrand[TOPIC] Announcements18:03
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
jdstrandIf you haven't done so already, please book your travel and register for UDS this week18:03
jdstrand* thanks18:04
jdstrandthanks to Melissa Draper (elky) provided debdiffs for lucid-oneiric for mahara (LP: #958841)18:04
jdstrandYour work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)18:04
jdstrand[TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report18:04
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
jdstrandI'll go first18:04
jdstrandI've got a short week this week and next18:05
jdstrandI am off Thu-Tue and will be back on Apr 418:05
jdstrandI'm on community this week18:05
jdstrandI also am patch piloting (already done this morning)18:05
jdstrandMIR audit catch-ups continue, though more keep being added18:06
jdstrandI think I see the light at the end of the tunnel, but I doubt I'll do much of anything else this week18:06
jdstrandmdeslaur: you're up18:06
mdeslaurI'm currently testing ca-certificates-java updates, which I'll probably release tomorrow18:06
mdeslaurI've started working on packaging the new mysql releases with unclear security fixes18:07
jdstrand /o\18:07
mdeslaurI'm in the happy place18:07
mdeslaurand I'll pick something from the list of I have time18:07
mdeslaurthat's it from me18:07
mdeslaursbeattie: you're up18:07
sbeattieI'm in the happy place this week18:08
sbeattieI'm working on fixing apparmor user space bugs18:08
sbeattieand reviewing jjohansen1's patches as they come along.18:08
sbeattieI think that's pretty much it for me.18:08
sbeattiemicahg: you're it18:09
micahgI've got chromium to test, icedtea regression, thunderbird 11 transition and webkit, webkit should be releasing 1.8.x final tarballs so, so there should be branch stability18:09
mdeslauricedtea regression?18:10
micahgthat firefox crash from weeks ago18:10
=== ralsina is now known as ralsina_lunch
jdstrandmicahg: are you blocked on that?18:10
micahgjdstrand: well, the patch doesn't apply cleanly, but I think I"ve got it now18:11
micahgthat's it for me if there are no more questions18:13
sbeattiemicahg: let me know if you want me to look at anything18:13
micahgsbeattie: I will, thanks18:13
* tyhicks will go now18:14
tyhicksI'm handling triage this week18:14
tyhicksI've fallen a little behind on responding to things in the eCryptfs bug tracker and this is the last week of the kernel merge window, so I'll spend some time making sure everything is in shape in regards to those two things.18:15
tyhicksI just merged 10 updates to the eCryptfs test suite from cking18:15
tyhicksand I'll be focusing on getting the gnutls update out18:15
tyhicksI think that is it for me18:16
ckingthanks tyhicks18:16
tyhicksthank you, cking!18:16
tyhicksjjohansen1: You're up18:16
jjohansen1I need to post of the kernel patch for Bug #96375618:16
jjohansen1finish debugging part 3 of the patches for Bug #95956018:16
jjohansen1add some new mount regression tests18:16
jjohansen1publish a few USNs and18:16
jjohansen1go on vacation spring break vacation with the kids for most of the week18:16
ubottuLaunchpad bug 963756 in apparmor (Ubuntu) "aa_change_onexec fails with permission denied" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/96375618:16
ubottuLaunchpad bug 959560 in AppArmor "deny mount does not work correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/95956018:16
mdeslaurjjohansen1: when are you leaving?18:16
jjohansen1mdeslaur: I am off tues, wed, thurs18:17
mdeslaurjjohansen1: ok, cool18:17
=== arun__ is now known as arun_
jjohansen1oh and I suppose finish updating the mount rules docs for the recent changes.  And hrmm I guess point jdstrand and sbeattie at them so they can revise them18:18
jjohansen1jdstrand: your up18:18
jjohansen1or back to you that is18:19
jdstrand[TOPIC] Highlighted packages18:20
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
jdstrandThe Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.18:20
jdstrandSee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.18:20
jdstrand[TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions18:21
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
jdstrandmdeslaur: I forgot to ask if you could lead next week's meeting18:21
mdeslaurjdstrand: sure!18:21
jdstrandmdeslaur: thanks :)18:21
jdstrandDoes anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?18:22
sbeattienot from me18:25
jdstrandmdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thanks!18:28
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Mon Mar 26 18:28:49 2012 UTC.18:28
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-26-18.03.moin.txt18:28
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-26-18.03.html18:28
jjohansen1thanks jdstrand18:28
sbeattiejdstrand: thank you!18:28
mdeslaurthanks jdstrand!18:29
=== ralsina_lunch is now known as ralsina
micahgthanks jdstrand18:38
Sweetsharkam i right here for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda ?19:01
ubottubdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping19:02
Laneyno cinema for me :(19:02
* stgraber waves19:02
cody-somervilleHi Folks.19:02
tumbleweedpoor Laney19:02
meetingologyMeeting started Mon Mar 26 19:03:17 2012 UTC.  The chair is cody-somerville. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.19:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired19:03
cody-somerville[topic] Review of previous action items: cody-somerville to write some documentation on how to endorse someone19:03
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items: cody-somerville to write some documentation on how to endorse someone
cody-somervilleSadly, this still isn't done. I've written some stuff up so might just end up sending what I have to dmb mailing list so that someone else can pick up on this instead of it continuing to block on me.19:04
cody-somervilleApologies to the rest of the council on the delay on this.19:04
cody-somervilleAny questions on this action item before we move on?19:04
tumbleweednot from me19:04
Laneyplease do, that would be appreciated19:04
cody-somervilleFrom the looks of it, the rest of the action items on the agenda are complete. Does anyone wish to discuss any of them specifically?19:05
cody-somerville[topic] MOTU Applications: Kilian Krause19:07
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Applications: Kilian Krause
cody-somervillekilian, Hello Kilian. Could you please introduce yourself and your application for MOTU?19:07
kilianhi cody-somerville19:07
micahgcody-somerville: I believe adam_g was first19:08
cody-somervilleadam_g, Sorry. We'll get to you next.19:08
kilianas already laid out on the wiki page I'm a DD who would like to more intensely contribute to Ubuntu19:08
cody-somerville#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KilianKrause/DeveloperApplication19:08
cody-somerville[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KilianKrause/DeveloperApplication19:08
kilianright ;-)19:08
kilianI've had a number of packages that I sponsored to Debian which I felt were good in enough shape for both Debian and Ubuntu so here I am asking whether the fake sync is the way to go or what we can do about direct upload right...19:09
LaneyWhat experience do you have in directly contribution to Ubuntu?19:10
Laneycontributing ...19:10
kilianLaney: I've just had a couple of security uploads into ubuntu for one of my Debian packages and I'm using LTS at work19:10
kilianLaney: so I fairly well know what release schedule to follow for I need it at work anyway ..19:11
LaneyRight. Since you're a DD I am not so concerned about your packaging skills so I just want to probe at your knowledge of Ubuntu processes19:11
kilianLaney: and yes it was a coleague of me and I who introduced Ubuntu as a second enterprise distro so I'm all for not letting it down19:11
LaneyDo you know about our various freezes?19:11
cody-somervillekilian, What is DIF? When would you apply for an exception? How would you apply?19:11
Laneya DIF exception?19:12
kiliandif is a debian import freeze19:12
* Laney doesn't know what that is :P19:12
kiliani.e. when no direct sync will happen any more19:12
kilianan exception would logically be a security upload or major broken version that's fixed with the next upload19:13
=== shadeslayer_ is now known as shadeslayer
kilianobviously not an exception would be all "just eye candy" stuff that can easily wait for the next release and has no relevant impact on the user experience19:13
tumbleweedkilian: you can still sync after DIF, they just don't happen automatically19:14
kiliantumbleweed: let's put it that way, I'd try to have my stuff in before19:14
kiliantumbleweed: but in a way, it very much remind me of Debian Freeze for Testing19:15
tumbleweeddoing stuff after DIF really isn't anything to worry about, either19:15
kiliantumbleweed: sure19:16
tumbleweedFinal Freeze is closer to Debian Freeze19:16
bdrungkilian: until when can you upload new packages or new upstream releases to ubuntu?19:16
kilianbdrung: i don't get that question19:16
cody-somervillekilian, Do you hang out in any Ubuntu IRC channels?19:16
tumbleweedkilian: bdrung is asking that in terms of the release schedule19:16
kiliancody-somerville: eventually, time permitting.. but usually only to get stuff fixed that doesn't work for me19:17
bdrungkilian: until which date do you need to get a new upstream release into ubuntu to ship it with the next release?19:17
bdrungkilian: are you subscribed to Ubuntu's mailing lists?19:18
kiliantumbleweed, bdrung: at the totally latest - the release date (but that's assuming a very large security flaw)19:18
kilianbdrung: sure, like ubuntu-security19:18
tumbleweedkilian: right, but without bureocracy?19:19
Laneyubuntu-devel-announce is one you should be on19:19
bdrungkilian: i was talking about new upstream release, i.e. new features19:19
kilianLaney: right19:19
Laneythe guys are asking you what the last date for a 'normal' featureful upload is19:20
Laneyi.e. one for which you do not have to seek approval19:20
kilianbdrung: IIRC that was 10 days like in unstable19:21
kilianbefore freeze and hard freeze of course19:21
Laneywe're talking about Feature Freeze. After this date, uploads should be bug fix only unless you have an exception from the release team19:22
kilianLaney: sure19:23
Laneyanyone else?19:24
tumbleweedkilian: are you intending to use your MOTU rights for packages that you already maintain in Debian or are you interested in wider QA efforts?19:24
kiliantumbleweed: I would naturally focus on my packages the most but as far as my commitment to Debian mentors permits I'd also lend those packages a helpnig hand - including also helping fixing those up I use at work where I find them not doing what they should19:26
kilian(like writing LP bugs and seeing what the current maintainers needs - if that's an upload that'd be fine with me)19:26
kilian"maintainer" in the sense of the last upload or most common uploader naturally19:26
bdrungkilian: imagine you have uploaded a new version of a package to debian. how do you get that version into ubuntu?19:27
kilianbdrung: if there's a BZR repo by putting it in there or otherwise with a source-only upload as opposed to a sourceful (but binary) upload in Debian19:27
bdrungkilian: what would you do if there is no source change needed for ubuntu?19:28
kilianbdrung: i don't quite get that.. if the ubuntu version is derived from the debian version and I've just put new stuff in - how could the ubuntu version not need it?19:29
kilianbdrung: other than I've derived my debian update from the ubnntu version19:30
cody-somervilleUnfortunately, I have to unexpectedly jet. Kudos to tumbleweed for picking up the rest of the meeting as chair.19:30
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cody-somerville19:30
cody-somerville#chair tumbleweed19:30
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cody-somerville tumbleweed19:30
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cody-somerville tumbleweed19:30
cody-somerville#unchair cody-somerville19:30
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cody-somerville tumbleweed19:30
LaneyIf the Ubuntu package is equal to the Debian one and you then upload a new Debian revision after the automatic imports have ceased (i.e after DIF)19:30
tumbleweed#unchair cody-somerville19:30
meetingologyCurrent chairs: cody-somerville tumbleweed19:30
tumbleweednope. not gonna happne19:30
Sweetsharkmeetingology seems to be rather strongminded.19:31
meetingologySweetshark: Error: "seems" is not a valid command.19:31
kilianLaney: depends on the change.. like said above I could discuss whether the change would warrant an upload after DIF19:31
bdrungkilian: assume it warrants an upload19:32
kilianLaney: then seek confirmation with ubuntu-dev and go ahead if permitted19:32
kilianbut still that doesn't get me to that point where the ubuntu package doesn't need the update like plotted before19:33
bdrungkilian: would you then upload the source package of debian to ubuntu?19:33
kilianbdrung: depends on the version currently in ubuntu19:33
kilianbdrung: most probably introduce a new version number first and then upload19:33
bdrungkilian: assume that you have uploaded a new version of portaudio19 to Debian.19:35
kilianbdrung: ok19:35
tumbleweedguys, I think we need to wrap this up and move to a vote19:35
tumbleweedbdrung: are you almost finished?19:36
bdrungkilian: what i asked for: if ubuntu made no changes to the debian package, new version can be _synced_19:36
kilianbdrung: of course19:37
bdrungkilian: what is the difference between a sync and a normal ubuntu upload?19:37
kilianthe sync is the pure debian source upload19:37
kiliani.e. unchanged with identical version number19:38
kilian(like with portaudio19)19:38
tumbleweedok, bdrung is done19:38
kilianwhereas a regular ubuntu upload has another version (and potentially a diff beyond just debian/changelog)19:38
tumbleweed#vote Should we grant kilian MOTU rights?19:39
meetingologyPlease vote on: Should we grant kilian MOTU rights?19:39
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)19:39
bdrungkilian: yes, but a sync is done by launchpad and normally not a source upload by a developer19:39
tumbleweed#voters bdrung tumbleweed laney micahg cody-somerville barry stgraber19:39
meetingologyCurrent voters: barry bdrung cody-somerville laney micahg stgraber tumbleweed19:39
tumbleweed+0 [ I think kilian needs some more experience with sponsored uploads in Ubuntu before getting component-wide privileges ]19:40
meetingology+0 [ I think kilian needs some more experience with sponsored uploads in Ubuntu before getting component-wide privileges ] received from tumbleweed19:40
meetingology+0 received from barry19:40
stgraber+0 [I don't doubt the packaging knowledge but I'd like to see more Ubuntu-specific experience through sponsoring]19:41
meetingology+0 [I don't doubt the packaging knowledge but I'd like to see more Ubuntu-specific experience through sponsoring] received from stgraber19:41
bdrung-1 i recommend to do some syncs / uploads through sponsors to get more familiar with the Ubuntu procedures and differences19:41
meetingology-1 i recommend to do some syncs / uploads through sponsors to get more familiar with the Ubuntu procedures and differences received from bdrung19:41
micahg+0 echo what tumbleweed, bdrung, and stgraber said19:42
meetingology+0 echo what tumbleweed, bdrung, and stgraber said received from micahg19:42
Laney-1 The discussion has highlighted a lack of knowledge about Ubuntu procedures. I'd recommend sticking around for a while and taking a direct involvement in your Debian packages in Ubuntu (through sponsors on this side) to gain the experience required.19:42
meetingologyVoting ended on: Should we grant kilian MOTU rights?19:43
meetingologyVotes for:0 Votes against:1 Abstentions:419:43
meetingologyMotion denied19:43
tumbleweedLaney: err he might be case sensitive19:43
Laneymust be19:43
tumbleweedkilian: I'm sorry that the result came otu this way. I strongly recommend using sponsors for a handful of uploads and re-applying19:44
Laneykilian: If you hang around in #ubuntu-motu and get some stuff sponsored you'll very quickly get the knowledge we're looking for19:44
tumbleweedwho's next? adam_g?19:45
barrykilian: stick with it, and thanks for your contributions to ubuntu!19:46
Laneythere's no meeting after us, so we can run over a bit if we need to and everyone can stick around19:46
tumbleweed#topic ubuntu-server-dev application for Adam Gandelman19:46
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ubuntu-server-dev application for Adam Gandelman
tumbleweedoops, and MOTU too19:46
tumbleweedwe'll vote on them separately19:46
tumbleweedadam_g: care to introduce yourself?19:47
tumbleweed#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdamGandelman/UbuntuServerDevApplication19:47
adam_gi'm adam, i work on the ubuntu server team at canonical. i help maintain the server package set with a f19:47
adam_gocus on the many openstack components, through sponsorship up until now.  i'm seeking MOTU + upload righ19:47
adam_gts to the server package set. i'm also applying for membership to the ubuntu-server-dev team, which the19:47
adam_gDMB owns. a number of packaging branches I work on are hosted there.19:47
Laneymembership in the server-dev team gives you rights to the server package set19:47
Laneythey're granted together19:47
adam_gLaney: i see! didn't know they came together19:48
tumbleweedany questions for adam_g?19:48
stgraberadam_g: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce and read it daily?19:49
Laneyadam_g: do you see any solution to your "What I like least in Ubuntu" issue?19:49
Laneyif you see such a problematic package do you raise it with the developers involved?19:50
adam_gstgraber: Hmm, it appears i am not. i am subscribed to ubuntu-devel, and follow threads there daily19:50
stgraberadam_g: please subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce now then, that's where freezes are announced and it's a must read for anyone who has upload rights19:51
adam_gLaney: yes, i have been trying to ensure a higher level of quality in the packages i touch, either thru fixing the issues myself or doing my best to encourage better practices of those who may no longer seek sponshorship review19:51
adam_gstgraber: definitely will do, thanks19:51
Laneysome developers call out mistakes on ubuntu-devel when they see them19:52
Laneydo you think that's a good idea?19:52
barryadam_g: what do you think is the biggest cause for the wide disparity in packaging practices?19:52
adam_gLaney: if its some general pattern of bad practices among certain packages, its probably a good idea. though, id prefer to reach out to specific developers personally first, to avoid singling any one person out on a public list19:53
adam_gbarry: lack of peer review, probably, for developers who are no longer required to seek sponsorship for their work19:54
adam_gbarry: we've been tyring to solve this issue around the openstack packages this sycle, by setting up staging packaging branches where we can collobarte on changes before they make it the ubuntu branches19:54
bdrungadam_g: are there tools that helps raising the quality of a package?19:54
stgraberadam_g: (reply when you're done with the current questions): let's say you have ubuntu-server upload rights and want to upload lxc later this afternoon, can you do it and if not, why?19:55
adam_gbdrung: well, there's lintian, but that can only test so much.  im perhaps overly paranoid and do my best to physically install packages i touch, to confirm my changes,  even for trivial changes19:56
barryadam_g: do you think that doing more code reviews before uploads would help with that (if it's due to laziness, or evolving best-practices), and if so would you encourage or force more reviews before uploads?19:56
bdrungadam_g: another question for the question stack: Do you collaborate with Debian developers? Are you involved in Debian?19:58
adam_gbarry: i do think evolving the workflow to encourage that practice would help. at the same time ubuntu is too large to enforce it for every change against every package. there should be a good middle ground, i think19:58
adam_gstgraber: im not certain lxc is part of the server seed, i would have to check. and im hestitant to touch such a complex package without confirmation from those that know it better htan me. in the case of lxc, even if i had upload rights i'd probably seek a +1 from someone who knows the pkg better than myself20:00
stgraberadam_g: lxc is part of ubuntu-server20:00
Laneyhow can you check if a package is seeded?20:00
stgraberadam_g: assuming you just need to do a minimal change to it anyway, would you be allowed to upload it today?20:01
adam_gLaney: there is a list of each package set, but my book for it eludes me atm20:02
stgraberadam_g: (lxc just happens to be the best example of a specific kind of package that's in the ubuntu-server package set and that I want you to talk about ;))20:03
adam_g_apologies, terminal dropped20:03
adam_g_stgraber: i believe that i would be able to upload it20:03
stgraberadam_g_: you'd technically be able to upload it indeed (as it's in your package set), now the release team (and me in particular) wouldn't be too happy about it, why?20:04
adam_g_stgraber: because we are so late in the cycle20:05
stgraberadam_g_: true but following that reasoning we wouldn't upload anything after feature freeze ;)20:06
stgraberadam_g_: there's a specific reason why you shouldn't upload lxc until the 29th, any idea what it's?20:06
adam_g_stgraber: of the top of my head, no im not sure20:08
stgraberadam_g_: I'm hoping you're aware that we are currently in beta2 freeze right?20:09
adam_g_stgraber: yes, i am.20:10
adam_g_i had the pleasure of seeking +1 from an archive admin for a new binary package on Friday20:10
stgraberok, other DMB members are poking me to tell you why so I'll explain ;)20:10
stgraberlxc is in the ubuntu-server packageset even though it's a universe package20:10
stgrabersome universe packages can be affected by a freeze too (not limited to main packages)20:11
stgraberwhich is the case of lxc20:11
stgraberas it's a dependecy of arkose20:11
stgraberwhich is another universe package20:11
stgraberitself seeded by edubuntu20:11
stgraberand on the Edubuntu DVD media20:11
stgraberso any upload of lxc would require a rebuild and retest of all the Edubuntu images20:11
adam_g_that makes sense20:12
stgraberthat's why it's frozzen and why you should ask for the release team approval before uploading it until past-beta220:12
stgraberadam_g_: you can check it with "seeded-in-ubuntu lxc"20:13
stgraberstgraber@castiana:~/data/code/ubiquity/ubiquity$ seeded-in-ubuntu lxc20:13
stgraberlxc (from lxc) is seeded in: edubuntu: dvd20:13
adam_g_stgraber: i see, i was not aware of that tool, thanks for the tip20:13
stgraberadam_g_: 20:13 < Laney> also apt-cache show lxc | grep ^Task20:14
stgraber(copy/pasting from another channel)20:14
stgraberI'd highly recommend running these before any upload when the archive is frozzen (check #ubuntu-devel status and ubuntu-devel-announce to know when it's the case)20:14
adam_g_i've been following the freeze closely this cycle, and as i said, have already run into an instance where archive admin approval was required. some of the tooling is still new to me, and knowing where to go for this informatio is invaluable, thanks stgraber20:16
micahgadam_g_: are there any plans to collaborate with Debian on openstack packaging?20:16
adam_g_micahg: yes, this process is still evolving as openstack in debian is quite new.  we've already done some work to reduce the delta on a couple of components (nova, keystone) and hope to be doing more collaboration moving forward.  i believe we'll be discussing this with the debian developers working on this stuff at the upcoming openstack design summit in april20:17
micahgadam_g_: any plans to eventually have some stuff uploaded to Debian first as the desktop team does?20:18
bdrung(and then just sync it from Debian)20:18
adam_g_micahg: i'd love to get to that point. like i said, this is all evolving. the debian packages currently target a much wider configuration base than we can currently support in ubuntu. we've also been scrambling to keep pace with changes upstream in our packaging, going into LTS, that we haven't had the cycles to focus on that for precise20:19
micahgadam_g_: I'm just glad it's being considered and worked towards, this is great news, thanks20:20
adam_g_there are some other complications as well, but collaboration is definitely high on the TODO moving forward20:20
Laneydo you think you could get to the stage where there is one openstack team working on the same packages?20:20
Laneyi.e. with a shared VCS20:20
adam_g_Laney: there is a lot of work todo, but that is the goal, or at least get to a point where changes we make get forwarded to debian immediately, instaed of baking in ubuntu till someone gets a free moment to sync everythign up20:21
Laneyit is my experience that cross-distro packaging teams are an excellent way to work, fwiw20:22
Laneyno more questions from me :-)20:22
tumbleweedadam_g_: on the MOTU part of your application. Do you feel that you are a part of the MOTU team? Do you hang out on IRC with MOTU or have an interest in archive-wide QA?20:22
Laney(on the server part)20:22
adam_g_tumbleweed: i do hang in #ubuntu-motu, and have had experience touching universe packages. id certainly love to get more exposure to the rest of the archive and distro through more involvement in MOTU20:24
tumbleweeddo you have any ideas on how we can grow MOTU? We're a pretty tiny team, for so many packages20:25
tumbleweedexcuse the impossible question :P20:25
bdrungand some MOTU are absorbed by other teams (like me)20:25
adam_g_i'd suggest trying to make the learning curve less steap, through continued improvement to documenation, online classes, blogs, etc.20:26
adam_g_but perhaps thats true of all ubuntu development, and not just MOTU20:26
Laneysome people have all of their energy sucked up by annoying things like immense transitions for obscure programming languages that nobody uses :P20:27
tumbleweed(some people say they choose that for themselves)20:27
micahgwell, with MOTU and core-dev specifically, you're dealing with a wide range of packaging and upstreams, so you can't really make the curve less steep, for other things like packagesets and PPU, we can certainly try to streamline things20:27
Laney"because it's there"20:27
* Sweetshark is shortly afk, phone. brb.20:28
LaneySweetshark: sorry, we'll get to you soon20:29
tumbleweedok, shall we wrap up the inquisition?20:29
adam_g_micahg: my comment was more wrt ubuntu development and all of the great tools and processes that exist for making that kind of work easier. i sometimes feel like im finding out about an easter egg when i hear about tools like 'seeded-in-ubuntu' :)20:29
barryadam_g_: i can sympathize :)20:30
Sweetshark<- back20:30
tumbleweedadam_g_: hopefully there are some more easter eggs for you in ubuntu-dev-tools & devscripts :)20:30
tumbleweedok, I'm not seeing anyone else jumping to ask questions20:31
* Laney has none20:31
tumbleweed#vote should adam_g be added to the ubuntu-server team?20:31
meetingologyPlease vote on: should adam_g be added to the ubuntu-server team?20:31
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)20:31
tumbleweedhopefully meetingology remembers the voters20:32
meetingology+1 received from tumbleweed20:32
Laney:( it does :(20:32
tumbleweed#voters bdrung tumbleweed Laney micahg cody-somerville barry stgraber20:32
meetingologyCurrent voters: Laney barry bdrung cody-somerville laney micahg stgraber tumbleweed20:32
meetingology+1 received from Laney20:32
meetingology+1 received from barry20:32
meetingology+1 received from bdrung20:32
meetingology+1 received from micahg20:32
meetingology+1 received from stgraber20:32
meetingologyVoting ended on: should adam_g be added to the ubuntu-server team?20:32
meetingologyVotes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:020:32
meetingologyMotion carried20:32
micahgumm, that should be ubuntu-server-dev :)20:32
bdrungadam_g_: re easter eggs: do you know wrap-and-sort and suspicious-source?20:33
tumbleweedyes, that :)20:33
tumbleweedadam_g_: congratulations, good luck with it20:33
Laneysomething like dpkg -L devscripts | grep usr/bin | shuf | head -1020:33
adam_g_bdrung: not until now, but wish i did. wrap-and-sort would have saved me quite a bit of time recently20:34
tumbleweedare we going straight on to a MOTU vote or any more qeustions?20:34
adam_g_tumbleweed: thanks20:34
bdrungno questions from me20:34
Laneyone second20:34
stgraberI think I'm ready to vote for MOTU based on the answers given before (once Laney is ready)20:35
Laneyadam_g_: looking at https://launchpad.net/~gandelman-a/+uploaded-packages I don't see many uploads outside of the server set that we just voted on. Do you have any other Universe activity that's not reflected there?20:35
Laneybe that community stuff or uploads that aren't shown for whatever reason20:35
adam_g_Laney: hmm perhaps i do not, though i thought i did. ive helped with MIRs for various python library's promotion *out of* universe, if that counts :P20:37
tumbleweedpish :)20:37
Laneythanks, that's all20:38
tumbleweedright, voting20:38
tumbleweed#vote Should adam_g join MOTU?20:39
meetingologyPlease vote on: Should adam_g join MOTU?20:39
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)20:39
meetingology+1 received from bdrung20:40
tumbleweed+0 From the questioning, I'm sure you have the skills, but I haven't seen the interest yet20:41
meetingology+0 From the questioning, I'm sure you have the skills, but I haven't seen the interest yet received from tumbleweed20:41
stgraber+0 [I'd like to see some more !server-package-set involvment and more interactions with the MOTU community]20:41
meetingology+0 [I'd like to see some more !server-package-set involvment and more interactions with the MOTU community] received from stgraber20:41
Laney+0 I don't question your technical skill, but I'd like to see some involvement with the community before giving a +1.20:41
meetingology+0 I don't question your technical skill, but I'd like to see some involvement with the community before giving a +1. received from Laney20:41
micahg+0 I think adam_g_ will make a fine MOTU, but would like to see some more work in that area20:41
meetingology+0 I think adam_g_ will make a fine MOTU, but would like to see some more work in that area received from micahg20:41
barry+1 i appreciated the dhpy2 transition you did and would like to see more stuff like that!20:41
meetingology+1 i appreciated the dhpy2 transition you did and would like to see more stuff like that! received from barry20:41
meetingologyVoting ended on: Should adam_g join MOTU?20:42
meetingologyVotes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:420:42
meetingologyMotion carried20:42
tumbleweedgaah, I can't remember how this works. Is the motion really carried?20:42
micahgmeetingology: apparently needs some help deciding what a good vote is :)20:42
meetingologymicahg: Error: "apparently" is not a valid command.20:42
micahgtumbleweed: no20:42
tumbleweedright, I thought so20:42
* Laney can't remember what the algorithm is20:43
tumbleweedLaney: didn't you summarise it to the list?20:43
Laneywrite once read none20:43
Laneylet's move on20:44
bdrungthe applicant need at least +420:44
adam_g_thanks all20:44
* tumbleweed finds https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-July/000956.html which was endorsed by the techboard20:44
stgraberadam_g_: congrats for the ubuntu-server packageset and I'm sure we'll see you in a few months for MOTU20:45
tumbleweedadam_g_: sorry, but we'll happily accept a reapplication from you with some uploads to wave at us20:45
adam_g_sounds reasonable, thanks again20:45
tumbleweed#topic PPU application for Bjoern Michaelsen20:46
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PPU application for Bjoern Michaelsen
SweetsharkHi all, sorry for mixing it up on the agenda: I am only applying for PerPackageUploader rights for LibreOffice, not for a PackageSet. (I didnt want to mess with the agenda during the meeting to avoid confusion.)20:46
tumbleweeddoes everyone still have time for this?20:46
SweetsharkHi all, sorry for mixing it up on the agenda: I am only applying for PerPackageUploader rights for LibreOffice, not for a PackageSet. (I didnt want to mess with the agenda during the meeting to avoid confusion.)20:46
tumbleweedSweetshark: np20:46
barryi'm good for one more20:46
* tumbleweed is too20:47
* bdrung is, but may starve. ;)20:47
tumbleweedok, let's hurry up then :)20:47
tumbleweedSweetshark: care to introduce your application?20:47
tumbleweed#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BjoernMichaelsen/DeveloperApplication20:47
SweetsharkYou can see my application at20:47
Sweetshark#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BjoernMichaelsen/DeveloperApplication20:47
SweetsharkI am Bjoern Michaelsen and work on Canonicals Desktop team since February 2011 and was on Sun/Oracles OpenOffice.org team before.20:47
SweetsharkWith regard to direct Ubuntu contributions, I provided the packaging for the libreoffice source package for natty, oneiric and precise (and libreoffice-l10n in natty and oneiric -- its gone in precise). I also provided some of the backports, although luckily I am supported there since 3.5.X by ricotz now. I try to work as close as possible with _rene_ at Debian and thus sometimes contribute to Debians LibreOffice packaging too.20:48
SweetsharkSome of the libreoffice packaging changes can be seen here: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-openoffice/libreoffice.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/ubuntu-precise-3.5 (this is the branch for LibreOffice 3.5.X on precise).20:48
SweetsharkI am applying for PerPackage rights to be able to get a small fix in when it is needed urgently and no sponsors are available. If possible at all, I would usually resort the letting someone else (pitti, seb128 or anyone else who cant hide fast enough) look over my upload anyway even with rights because of the size of the package.20:48
Sweetshark(I had some time to prepare myself for this ;) )20:48
barrySweetshark: do you anticipate many long-term deltas between ubuntu and debian?20:49
Sweetsharkbarry: I try to kill them as much as possible and not to introduce new ones.20:50
Laneydo you contribute directly to the main debian branch too?20:50
Sweetsharkbarry: For precise, I freshly branched of the debian, and then rebased all changes on top of that anew (carefully checking if they are really needed anymore)20:51
SweetsharkLaney: yes.20:52
bdrungSweetshark: why do the libo icons not look nice in precise?20:52
bdrung(maybe offtopic)20:52
SweetsharkLaney: although I always keep in touch with _rene_ when doing this, so that there are no unsuspected surprises for him.20:52
Laneynice, good to see you guys working together20:53
LaneySo, I take it you didn't know anything about packaging before starting in this position?20:54
bdrungyes, good to see that collaboration20:54
LaneyHow would you say your competence is now?20:54
Sweetsharkbdrung: honestly, I havent looked to deep into that yet, we had too many big changes causing me to look at issues elsewhere.20:56
micahgSweetshark: are you familiar with library transitions in Ubuntu?20:57
bdrungSweetshark: are you always allowed to upload libreoffice once you have upload rights?20:58
SweetsharkLaney: I wouldnt claim to be an expert with dpkg -- esp. since LibreOffice is "special" in some ways, so I might not know the canonical way to do this. But then again, LibreOffice is special so it is not that relevant for perpackage rights.20:58
Sweetsharkmicahg: you mean like the multiarch transition?20:59
micahgSweetshark: no, like libssl20:59
LaneyI'm not asking how confident you are in general, but how you feel about handling the LO package21:00
Sweetsharkbdrung: no, I have to keep the release schedule in mind. And again for LibreOffice: buildtimes until the deadlines.21:00
bdrungSweetshark: would you be allowed to do an upload _today_?21:01
SweetsharkLaney: I am confident with LibreOffice packaging. between LibreOffice 3.4/3.5 oneiric/precise, we (Ubuntu/Debian) switched from the old go-oo build system to directly using LibreOffice native buildsystem with migrating all patches over, so in a way I was one of the creator of this 'new' packaging.21:04
Sweetsharkbdrung: beta freeze, so not without approval from release team. And again: I need to add buildtimes (esp. for arm) to my calculations.21:06
micahgSweetshark: if libssl were to bump its SONAME, would that affect libreoffice and how so21:06
bdrungSweetshark: how long does a build take on a recent quad-core machine?21:07
Sweetsharkmicahg: Im sorry, I dont know what you are aiming at.21:08
Sweetsharkbdrung: on my notebook (i7Quad, 16GB RAM) it takes 2:10 minutes with l10n and ccache. ~3:50 without ccache.21:09
micahgSweetshark: if there were a need for another libssl transition, would that affect libreoffice and how so?21:09
Sweetsharkbdrung: a upstream developer build (no l10n, no mozilla, no binfilter) takes ~1:30h without ccache, 5min with hot ccache on a reasonable fast machine.21:10
Sweetsharkmicahg: Well, I guess I would have to check if ssl is part of the UNO-ABI. If so, that would have wideranging implications as it isnt allowed to get incompatible. If so, the old libssl would need to stick around.21:12
tumbleweedSweetshark: are you only after PPU rights for libreoffice itself, or any particular related source packages too?21:14
Sweetshark(well UNO is allowed to get incompatible with LibreOffice 4.0, but we are not going for that upstream yet)21:14
Sweetsharktumbleweed: just libreoffice for now21:14
micahgSweetshark: what if the UNO-ABI was compatible21:14
Sweetsharkmicahg: extensions wouldnt work21:15
Sweetsharkmicahg: (that is binary C++ extensions, which to be honest is a rare creed)21:16
tumbleweedSweetshark: it seems like recently your sponsored libreoffice uploads have been waved through with minimal review, as your sponsors clearly trust you. Are you still getting any useful feedback from them?21:17
Sweetsharktumbleweed: If I ask for it yes. Otherwise not so much.21:18
LaneySweetshark: I'm looking at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/1:3.5.0-1ubuntu221:20
Laneycan you talk us through the reasons for the first changelog item there - the breaks/replaces - why they were required21:21
Laneywas the previous package upload broken?21:21
SweetsharkLaney: basically the debianized way to split libreoffice here is a making things a bit tricky.21:22
Sweetsharkwe have a binary in libreoffice-core called unopkg.bin, which usually is called from a very thin script-wrapper called unopkg which was in libreoffice-common.21:23
Laneyso you forgot to add the breaks/replaces when it moved package?21:24
Sweetsharkas libreoffice-core depends on libreoffice-common one cant depend from libreoffice-common on -core.21:24
tumbleweedok, we need to wrap this up and vote, before micahg has to run off or bdrung eats his keyboard21:25
Laneysorry, we're going to be out of time21:25
tumbleweed#vote Should we grant Sweetshark PPU rights for libreoffice?21:25
meetingologyPlease vote on: Should we grant Sweetshark PPU rights for libreoffice?21:25
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)21:25
meetingology+1 received from bdrung21:26
meetingology+0 received from stgraber21:26
meetingology+1 received from barry21:27
Sweetsharkhowever the unopkg script was called from triggers, thus leading to situations were the script was there, but the binary was missing. Thus the script was moved to -core too. And yes, the replaces/breaks where needed for that. I would need to recheck, if I missed them in that upload or if it was in the same upload.21:27
meetingology-1 received from micahg21:28
micahgI'll have to provide my reasoning later21:28
stgrabertumbleweed, Laney: ^21:29
tumbleweed+0 I understand that libreoffice is a complex package and so is hard to get review for. But I don't want to grant this, with only a single endorsement whene there are a fair number of people worried about recent issues with the package21:29
meetingology+0 I understand that libreoffice is a complex package and so is hard to get review for. But I don't want to grant this, with only a single endorsement whene there are a fair number of people worried about recent issues with the package received from tumbleweed21:29
Sweetsharkstgraber: doesnt really matter though anyway.21:30
Laney+1 I have reservations about your answers to the question about transitions and the breaks/replaces upload that I pointed out, and I would urge you to seek clarification on that, but I don't want to block your application based on it.21:30
meetingology+1 I have reservations about your answers to the question about transitions and the breaks/replaces upload that I pointed out, and I would urge you to seek clarification on that, but I don't want to block your application based on it. received from Laney21:30
meetingologyVoting ended on: Should we grant Sweetshark PPU rights for libreoffice?21:31
meetingologyVotes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:221:31
meetingologyMotion carried21:31
Laneythis is a package that benefits a lot from peer review21:31
SweetsharkLaney: right, however everytime I need it, everyone is running away ;21:32
Laneyhah, indeed21:32
tumbleweedSweetshark: I feel that you should be able to get more endorsements to a developer application for such a core package21:32
Sweetsharktumbleweed: well, pitti was almost the only sponsor.21:32
tumbleweedSweetshark: yes, the curse of a massive, complicated package21:33
Sweetsharkdidrocks did one upload, but I dont thing there was much review there.21:33
tumbleweedyeah, I see that21:33
tumbleweedI'm sorry that we can't grant this application now, but we can dicuss this afterwards21:34
tumbleweed#topic AOB?21:34
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB?
Laneyyes, let's please limit to two applicants per meeting21:34
Sweetsharkbryceh got involved in one, but that upload was broken by an intermediate kdelibs upload. (It was that upload that was broken by it, the package that was in precise at that time was also ftbfs because of the kdelibs update.21:34
Laneyand update the agenda page to reflect this21:34
tumbleweedLaney: +121:35
bdrungi worked on eclipse and know why i would try to escape a libreoffice review ;)21:35
stgraberLaney: +121:35
tumbleweedLaney: care to take an action on that?21:35
bdrungLaney: +121:36
tumbleweed#action Laney to document that we're only doing <=2 applicants per meeting21:36
meetingologyACTION: Laney to document that we're only doing <=2 applicants per meeting21:36
tumbleweednext chair?21:36
Laneycody again :P21:36
=== adam_g_ is now known as adam_g
Laneyor me i think21:36
tumbleweedlaney is next on https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members21:37
bdrung(with round robin)21:37
Laneyi was referring to the fact that cody skipped an entire round21:37
bdrungi don't mind giving him another chance ;)21:37
tumbleweedworks for me. keep you as standby?21:37
tumbleweedright, I propose bed time21:38
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Mon Mar 26 21:38:37 2012 UTC.21:38
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-26-19.03.moin.txt21:38
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-03-26-19.03.html21:38
* Laney plays some metal21:38
tumbleweedshould I leave the minutes for cody? :P21:39
* bdrung is afk for cooking. :)21:39
=== showcees is now known as Cees
=== bladernr_ is now known as bladernr_afk

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