[06:03] <mattt> *yawn*
[06:42] <christel> bigcalm: the only place i have stayed is the bishops table in town, which is nice (and does nice food) -- bar that i have no idea (though i am sure the two of you can stay at ours if you like) :)
[07:03] <Myrtti> bigcalm: we actually stayed in the swing hotel for oggcamp, it was a nice hotel
[07:16] <DJones> Morning all
[07:54] <AlanBell> good news everyone! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17511011
[07:54] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[07:56] <diplo> yeah and one sentence mentioning the amount of sugar
[07:56] <diplo> Gotta love those studies
[08:04] <popey> morning
[08:24] <bigcalm> christel: Myrtti: thanks :) Plenty of time to find somewhere. This year's oggcamp will be another drain on the wallet, fun though :)
[08:25] <bigcalm> Morning all
[08:29] <Myrtti> bigcalm: I don't know if I can justify this years, on the weekend before I'll be attending my birthday present of participating to an archeological dig in the Fens
[08:29] <bigcalm> :O
[08:30] <bigcalm> What a cool present
[08:30] <bigcalm> Myrtti: how young will you be?
[08:31] <Myrtti> http://digventures.com/2012/03/04/venturer-profile-miia-myrtti-ranta/
[08:31] <Myrtti> 32
[08:31] <bigcalm> Yay
[08:32] <Myrtti> and also the engagement ring will be a bit more than we planned so I'll try not to suggest overly expensive stuff for him to get for a few years
[08:32] <Myrtti> but it will be amazing so it's ok.
[08:32] <Myrtti> :-P
[08:33] <bigcalm> :)
[08:59] <gord> wow thats a great gift idea, more dig sites should do it
[09:02] <JamesTait> Morning all! :D
[09:02] <bigcalm> Morning
[09:03] <Myrtti> whut "Rovio (demoscene company, Angry Birds) buying Futuremark (demoscene company, 3DMark etc) - great news =)"
[09:04] <BigRedS> parse error: unexpected ) on line 1
[09:05] <Myrtti> dotwaffle isn't online
[09:05] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: ...
[09:05] <Myrtti> http://www.rovio.com/en/news/press-releases/147/rovio-entertainment-acquires-futuremark-games-studio
[09:05] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: I tried to do the maths in that sentence and my brain didn't like it
[09:05] <BigRedS> I've no idea why I presumed it was maths
[09:06] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:06] <oimon> why is it good news?
[09:11] <popey> Myrtti: rovio was born out of the demoscene?
[09:12] <gord> I'm really not sure what to think about the guys that made second reality working for angry birds...
[09:12] <gord> without second reality i wouldn't have half the skill set i do
[09:12] <Myrtti> oimon: quote from dotwaffle's tweet
[09:13] <oimon> Myrtti, ah
[09:14] <Myrtti> popey: everything <25 years old is born out of demoscene here pretty much, in one way or another. All selfrespecting geeks attend Assembly Summer at some point and make contacts with people there
[09:15] <gord> everything < 25 years old here is born out of kids making zx spectrum games for £200 a pop
[09:15] <Myrtti> gord: in here the kids went to Assembly and displayed their stuff there
[09:16] <Myrtti> and in fact, they still do!
[09:16] <popey> \o/ Bassetts_
[09:16] <Myrtti> http://pouet.net/party.php?which=7
[09:17] <Myrtti> well, <20 years
[09:17] <gord> demo scene is different these days, computers are way too powerful ;)
[09:17] <oimon> now that oggcamp is in liverpool , any suggestions about a similar alternate event in the south that i can attend?
[09:19] <gordonjcp> oimon: oggcamp is in the south
[09:19] <BigRedS> gordonjcp: no it isn't
[09:19] <BigRedS> :)
[09:19] <oimon> not this year
[09:20] <popey> here we go
[09:20] <gordonjcp> oimon: it's in Liverpool, it's well south
[09:20] <oimon> south of the north pole, yes
[09:20] <BigRedS> Liverpool's way north!
[09:20] <BigRedS> it's past birmingham!
[09:20] <Myrtti> it's in westcoast.
[09:20] <gordonjcp> BigRedS: that's hardly any distance at all
[09:20] <Myrtti> case closed.
[09:20] <oimon> if (talkfunny) then location=north
[09:20] <BigRedS> oimon: or location=westCountry
[09:21] <BigRedS> Basically, once you go North out of the M25 you're in "The North"
[09:21] <BigRedS> that's what the signs on the motoroway say
[09:21] <oimon> what's worse, my wife says i should be taking her to paris instead now. all because of oggcamp
[09:22] <gordonjcp> Paris is good
[09:23] <popey> s/worse/better/
[09:23] <DJones> Which venue has been selected for Oggcamp
[09:23] <popey> see oggcamp.org
[09:24] <popey> (scroll down)
[09:24] <DJones> Ah, I looked at the page, didn't think to scroll down, just thought it was a static page with a picture on it
[09:24] <Myrtti> popey: http://www.gigantti.fi/search?WFSimpleSearch_NameOrID=nokia+n9
[09:25] <Myrtti> :-P
[09:26] <popey> heh
[09:26] <DJones> Hmmh, I might manage that depending on holidays, only 30 minutes from home :)
[09:28] <gordonjcp> hm, okay, okay
[09:28] <Myrtti> nice, Finland is becoming the dumping ground of obsolete mobile phone platforms.
[09:28] <gordonjcp> so this year Oggcamp is closer to me than it is to the Farnham Contingent
[09:28] <bigcalm> Heh
[09:28] <Myrtti> Blackberry is going to start shipping to Finland.
[09:28] <Myrtti> yay.
[09:28] <oimon> bit late for that
[09:28] <gordonjcp> Myrtti: you can desolder the chips and use them in proper phones
[09:32] <Myrtti> lol ok so a carrier that no one has ever heard of before will start importing
[09:32] <Myrtti> nevermind then
[09:44] <oimon> saw a nokia advert the other day on telly, looked like a MS advert
[09:45] <directhex> Myrtti, why do you want blackberries?
[09:45] <oimon> to organise riots
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> crackberries
[09:47] <Myrtti> directhex: I have *no* idea why *anyone* would want one
[09:48] <oimon> my 24-month contract is due to end in a couple of months, and i don't want to change phone yet - any recommendations for sim only deals that offer good mobile internet?
[09:48] <gord> oimon, three are pretty good, 15 quid a month or so, unlimited internet
[09:48] <oimon> currently pay £15pm for 300mins/300texts and 3GB mobile internets
[09:48]  * popey wonders how mpt got a canonical logo next to his name on reddit
[09:48] <oimon> but i hardly use the phone
[09:49] <oimon> to make voice calls or texts
[09:49] <brobostigon> £15pm, 3000 sms, 300 mins, no fup unlimited internet.
[09:49] <gord> popey, i have one also ;)
[09:49] <popey> oooh
[09:49] <oimon> was hoping for cheaper munny
[09:49] <popey> how?
[09:49] <directhex> virgin used to do decent internet-mostly sims, but they stopped
[09:49] <directhex> so three
[09:49] <gord> popey, www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/l5b3x/members_and_canonical_employees_claim_your_flair/
[09:50] <oimon> suspicious of three
[09:50] <directhex> why?
[09:50] <oimon> a few years ago my friends all bought 3 because they were cheap, then realised the reception was terrible
[09:50] <directhex> if only orange/t-mobile reception was as good as three, tbh.
[09:50] <oimon> and couldn't get out of the contract
[09:50] <shauno> I think when my contract ends, I'm going to get a 3g dongle, pull the sim and ditch the dongle.  the data plans work out much better (here) if they don't know it's going in a phone
[09:50] <oimon> directhex, i get terrible tmob reception on my train journey
[09:51] <directhex> wife always has 3g everywhere. i rarely get more than 1 bar of gprs anywhere
[09:51] <oimon> maybe i'll get a 3 sim and try it out
[09:51] <directhex> oimon, get a PAYG sim, try it for size?
[09:51] <gord> 3 reception is pretty good i find, used to be terrible years ago, but not anymore
[09:51] <directhex> oh, there's also "giffgaff" which is some bull web-only thing on o2
[09:51] <brobostigon> agreed, three reception, is very good here, only one blackspot that i know of.
[09:52] <oimon> gord, my bias is based on 5yr ago
[09:52] <gord> http://www.three.co.uk/_standalone/Coverage_checker_mobile - found that to be pretty accurate
[09:52] <directhex> physics says o2/voda reception is better than orange/t-mobile
[09:52] <directhex> wavelengths matter, kiddies!
[09:52] <oimon> voda = £ usually
[09:52] <directhex> voda is crap for data
[09:52] <directhex> crap crap crap
[09:52] <oimon> i'm happy with dodgy reception from t-mob if they offer me a ridiculous deal to stya though
[09:52] <brobostigon> so was o2, last time i tried o2.
[09:53] <AlanBell> giffgaff is a better way to get O2
[09:53]  * oimon is cheapskate
[09:53]  * AlanBell haz giffgaff promo code probably
[09:54] <oimon> if i leave my current tmob contract, i'll prob lose my 3gb internet
[09:54] <oimon> since new customers only get 250 or 500mb i think
[09:54] <AlanBell> http://giffgaff.com/orders/affiliate/ainebell
[09:55] <directhex> oimon, they'll offer to keep you. you're paying how much?
[09:55] <oimon> £15pm
[09:55] <directhex> and you want to pay less than that?
[09:55] <oimon> yes, coming to end of contract
[09:55] <oimon> don't use my minutes
[09:56] <oimon> 3 mobile have a £10 pm
[09:56] <oimon> 1 month rollling
[09:56] <AlanBell> £10 for unlimited internet on giffgaff
[09:56] <oimon> AlanBell, any mins/texts?
[09:57] <AlanBell> 250 minutes, unlimited texts
[09:57] <oimon> sounds good
[09:57] <oimon> however i'm also considering ditching my landline if poss to do so while keeping broadband
[09:57] <oimon> my father-in-law recently got virgin fibre and no phone line was required
[09:58] <oimon> t-mob need to match giffgaff and 3 or lose me then
[09:59] <brobostigon> i would also be concerned, especially with internet, if there is a FUP.
[09:59] <davmor2> morning all
[09:59] <davmor2> czajkowski: hugs
[10:00] <oimon> i hate that you have to have a phone line to have broadband
[10:00] <AlanBell> "Is unlimited really unlimited? The answer is yes, we are unlimited for personal mobile use - but not for commercial and automated use."
[10:00] <oimon> have to = get stiched up otherwise
[10:04] <BigRedS> brobostigon: the alternative, though, to a FUP is being affected by somebody else's monopolisation of the connection
[10:05] <brobostigon> BigRedS: monopolisation of connection ?
[10:05] <bigcalm> Holiday for 17th & 20th August has been approved for Hayley and myself. Yay for geeky socials
[10:05] <BigRedS> yeah. At some point any given connection needs to join the rest of the Internet
[10:06] <BigRedS> if someone's maxing out that connection all by themselves, anybody else sharing it suffers
[10:06] <popey> What do we think of the HTC Sensation XE?
[10:07] <brobostigon> BigRedS: good point, so why do three do unlimited internet, without fup. in that case.
[10:07] <davmor2> finally no more blue indicators woohoo!
[10:07] <BigRedS> well, either it's actually limited, or there's no guaranteed level of service
[10:07] <BigRedS> you can't have both
[10:07] <JamesTait> popey: Hi!
[10:08] <popey> yo JamesTait
[10:08] <brobostigon> BigRedS: i have read, the conditions, and beleieve it to be fully unlimited.
[10:08] <gord> i'm fairly sure that 3g speeds are low enough that abuse isn't a large concern
[10:08] <AlanBell> BigRedS: who does a guarunteed level of service?
[10:08] <JamesTait> popey: I just remembered I wanted to ask you something - the EeePC(s?) you upgraded to Precise recently, what model & spec were they?
[10:10] <popey> JamesTait: Eee 900, 900MHz celeron, 2GB RAM, 16GB SSD
[10:10] <JamesTait> popey: And it runs well? Unity 2D I presume?
[10:10] <brobostigon> same model as my eeepc.
[10:11] <JamesTait> popey: The reason I'm asking is I'm intending to upgrade my wife's EeePC 1005 (or something) with 1GB RAM.
[10:11] <popey> the 1005 will be ATOM won't it?
[10:11] <brobostigon> JamesTait: yes, unity-2d works well, infact, so does unity-3d, but alittle on the slower side.
[10:12] <JamesTait> popey: Correct.
[10:12] <popey> i have 12.04 on a 1008HA too
[10:20] <MooDoo> hello all
[10:20] <popey> yo
[10:21] <davmor2> MooDoo: me owld mukka where ya bin
[10:21] <MooDoo> davmor2: how do, was on a different IRC server checking it out...
[10:21] <diplo> oimon, you about ?
[10:22] <iclebyte> has any one ever seen 'rt6_redirect: source isn't a valid nexthop for redirect target' in syslog? I can only seem to find references to the kernel source where the message is and other people asking the same question. I have no way of working out which node is causing this.
[10:22] <davmor2> MooDoo: server or client and what excuse either way is that to not be in here any how
[10:23] <MooDoo> davmor2: i was in the smugmug chat room on a different server and yes i know, no excuse
[10:25] <davmor2> MooDoo: you know the amazing thing about computers is they can do more than one thing at a time,  you can even be in 2 that's right count them 2 irc server at the same time ;)
[10:26] <MooDoo> davmor2: couldn't be bothered to run another screen session with another client....sorry lazy mode off
[10:28] <davmor2> MooDoo: Why 1 client can connect to multiple servers unless of course irssi is really sucky but I can't see that being the case at all
[10:30] <MooDoo> davmor2: well i'll be
[10:35] <oimon> diplo, yes
[10:36] <diplo> I remember us having a chat about CentOS repos
[10:36] <diplo> Just wondering what versions you run
[10:36] <oimon> go on, may jog my memory
[10:36] <diplo> And size of the repo ?
[10:37] <diplo> Just trying to work out size requirements to host
[10:37] <popey> davmor2: i am on 4 networks in irssi
[10:38] <MooDoo> popey: me being thick, didn't realise you can /connect to multiple servers
[10:38] <popey> yeah, its not intuitive
[10:38] <oimon> diplo, do you mean mirrors, or custom repos
[10:38] <diplo> mirrors sorry
[10:38] <oimon> i'll check
[10:38] <oimon> i run sl5 and sl6
[10:38] <oimon> so not exactly centos but similar
[10:38] <MooDoo> i use dag and rpmfusion and a few others i think
[10:39] <diplo> ok, we are just about to move to 6 but we are going to have to mirror 4.8 for customers that will not upgrade
[10:40] <oimon> 6.x mirrors are 20G, 5.x mirrors are 50G
[10:40] <oimon> i may have excluded isos
[10:40] <oimon> /usr/bin/rsync -avzlH --delete --exclude=sites/Fermi --exclude=archive/debuginfo --exclude=archive/obsolete --exclude=iso rsync://rsync.scientificlinux.org/scientific/55/ /mirror/install/mirror55/
[10:40] <diplo> Yeah I am going to as well
[10:41] <diplo> ah top man! :)
[10:41] <diplo> So why do you use SL over Cent ?
[10:41] <oimon> its an educational institution
[10:41] <oimon> seems slightly more scietific and research focused
[10:41] <oimon> not much difference though
[10:42] <diplo> ah right, so more for basic install of pacakages etc than they are better overall
[10:42] <oimon> there's not much in it really, but the mailing list is more intelligent
[10:43] <diplo> heh, I don't use Cent's ML and there irc channel is either full of ignorant people or why are you running that blah blah
[10:43] <diplo> I use the web for 95% of my answers i suppose
[10:43] <oimon> SL is mostly mailing list, but there is a forum i don't really use much
[10:43] <oimon> most SL users seem to use them as server
[10:44] <oimon> centos can be a mixture, including a bunch of numptys
[10:44] <oimon> when centos delayed, i saw a lot of numptys come to SL
[10:44] <diplo> My biggest issue is we have customers that will not upgrade the OS
[10:44] <diplo> but want to run our new app
[10:44] <oimon> reason?
[10:44] <diplo> But it's dependant on php5.3
[10:44] <gord> as a test i've been not using menus at all for the past 2-3 weeks or so, just using hud. not sure hud can replace menus fully yet, but for 99% of stuff i found it way easier to use the keyboard :)
[10:45] <diplo> It works is the main reason and they don't want to spend money
[10:45] <diplo> This is a rather tight trade to work in...
[10:45] <diplo> Our software now runs on Cent6, but the customers ask why do we need to upgrade if it still works
[10:46] <popey> gord: when i installed hud I realised about a week later that I almost never use menus ☺
[10:46] <popey> i had to do some fuzzing effect in gimp the other day and went "oooh ooh! I can use hud for this!"
[10:46] <popey> and did
[10:46] <gord> popey, yeah i find that too, apart from indicators
[10:46] <popey> i forget to use hud for indicators
[10:47]  * Laney can't see any menus atm
[10:47] <Laney> firefox, terminal, emacs - all hidden
[10:47] <popey> i want to do "alt, play" and it play rhythmbox
[10:48] <gord> could you not press the play button on your keyboard?
[10:48]  * oimon notices for the first time he has a play button on his keyboard
[10:48] <oimon> doesnt work :(
[10:49] <popey> i get a "no entry" type sign pop up
[10:49] <popey> (rb isnt open)
[10:49] <gord> you need to have rb already running i think, or something else that accepts the key
[10:49] <popey> i just pressed play on the sound menu and it opened rb
[10:49] <popey> but doesnt play anything
[10:50] <popey> that doesnt seem right
[10:50] <davmor2> popey: it does here
[10:50] <gord> heh, spotify has its own indicator, so if you run that you can alt play :)
[10:50] <popey> not if rb is closed
[10:51] <popey> well, not if rb has never been opened
[10:51]  * AlanBell presses play
[10:51] <popey> i.e. do that from a clean boot
[10:51] <oimon> i also have a music symbol key
[10:51] <AlanBell> RB starts, but nothing plays
[10:51] <davmor2> popey: I went to the indicator and click play it started playing the first track in my music lib
[10:51] <popey> yes, if you have previously had rb open it does davmor2
[10:51] <popey> but not if it's clean boot
[10:51] <davmor2> popey: ah right with you sorry
[10:51]  * AlanBell presses play again and some stuff starts
[10:51]  * popey files a bug
[10:52] <gord> wow spotify isn't crashing for me
[10:52] <gord> its failing to log into facebook so i guess that has something to do with it
[10:52] <davmor2> popey:  it could be that it open RB see no music and decides to wait till you decide what to play maybe as it builds the lib once it is open and not before iirc
[10:52] <popey> I dont care why ☺
[10:53] <davmor2> popey: I know you don't I'm just giving a possible cause so you can add it to the bug :P
[10:53] <gord> does spotify work off recommendations? ie what you have already listened to? i fear i may be biasing it by testing it with eurovision tracks
[10:56] <davmor2> gord: possibly
[10:56] <JamesTait> popey: Sorry, I got dragged into a Mumble call. :)  The 1008HA is atom-based too, right?
[10:57] <bigcalm> gord: I've not linked my fb account to spotify. Refuse to
[10:58] <gord> i've degraded my facebook account to just being a contact point for apps now really, apps connect to it, i never go to the website
[10:59] <bigcalm> Fair enough :)
[11:00] <gord> i'm sure everyone else i know gets spammed with stuff my apps are saying ;)
[11:00] <popey> yes JamesTait
[11:00] <popey> JamesTait: basically all asus 1xxx laptops are the same
[11:00] <popey> minor differences here and there
[11:01] <popey> there's a couple of newer models with the pine-trail cpu which is better on battery, but they're all 1.6GHz atoms
[11:01] <popey> (except mine which are 900Mhz Celerons)
[11:01] <JamesTait> popey: Cool.  So I'll upgrade her RAM and go for it I think.
[11:01] <popey> yeah, 2GB would be good
[11:01] <popey> it's a massive balls-ache to do btw
[11:01] <popey> well, the clamshell one wifey has is
[11:02] <popey> I switched the disk for an SSD at the same time
[11:02] <popey> gave it a new lease of life
[11:02] <bigcalm> I installed 12.04 on my eeepc1000, think it might be too much for the poor thing
[11:03] <JamesTait> I actually had 2GB in there at one stage, but I think it was the wrong type - I put the DIMMs from the EeePC 701 in it, and it didn't like it.
[11:03] <JamesTait> So I changed it back to 1GB and now it's swapping a lot. :-/
[11:03] <davmor2> JamesTait: watch the youtube video, iirc it is remove screws, remove keyboard, remove top cover, remove wifi, remove mobo add ram reverse to put it back but popey can possibly confirm
[11:04] <bigcalm> Upgrading the ram in my 1000 wasn't difficult. Or I don't recall it being difficult
[11:04] <JamesTait> popey, davmor2: This one is quite easy, it has a little hatch on the bottom. :)
[11:05]  * JamesTait blinks at the chuffing great military helicopter that just flew over his house.
[11:08] <BigRedS> Bewitched style?
[11:09] <popey> bug 966132
[11:09] <popey> please to be confirming
[11:15] <gord> popey, can't confirm =\ from a cold boot, hadn't loaded anything, took a second or so to load my library but then started playing music
[11:16] <popey> ☹
[11:16] <ali1234> also cannot reproduce
[11:17] <ali1234> however
[11:17] <ali1234> searching u1 music from the dash still doesn't work for me
[11:17] <popey> hmmm
[11:17] <gord> searching u1 music has always been a bit flaky, server side is slow =\
[11:18] <ali1234> it works until i click on a result
[11:18] <ali1234> then rhythmbox loads up and gives an error
[11:18] <ali1234> "Error while getting credentials:
[11:18] <ali1234> The '/org/freedesktop/secrets/collection/login/6' object does not exist"
[11:18] <ali1234> known bug?
[11:19] <gord> ah, no idea, maybe ask the u1 peoples
[11:27] <ali1234> bug 966144
[11:31]  * popey confirms
[11:31]  * popey pokes aquarius 
[11:34]  * bigcalm misreads that as porks, sorry :(
[11:34] <directhex> sure, blame aquarius for every u1 bug
[11:34] <bigcalm> directhex: isn't that what he's here for?
[11:35] <popey> yes
[11:35] <popey> what's the best android phone to get these days?
[11:35] <bigcalm> SGS3
[11:35] <bigcalm> But it's not out yet
[11:35] <popey> hah, what about is ou
[11:35] <popey> *out
[11:36] <bigcalm> SGS2
[11:37] <bigcalm> This is my problem, I want the SGS3, but my contract is due for renewal 6th April.
[11:37] <bigcalm> SGS3 it rumoured to be out 22nd May (or reviled at least)
[11:39] <popey> so wait?
[11:44] <ali1234> you don't have to renew contract same day it ends you know
[11:45] <popey> bug 966151
[11:45] <popey> nice
[11:45] <ali1234> well
[11:46] <ali1234> if the keyboard had already stopped responding
[11:46] <ali1234> then likely the bug happened much earlier before the oops
[11:46] <aquarius> popey, pong
[11:46]  * popey points bug 966144 at aquarius 
[11:46] <Dave2> I used to get a kernel panic when unplugging  power after unplugging my network cable
[11:46] <gord> my keyboard stops responding all the time, have to unplug and replug, very annoying
[11:46] <popey> or vice versa
[11:46] <aquarius> popey, you wanna talk to dobey about that
[11:46]  * popey points ali1234 at dobey ☺
[11:47] <ali1234> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/98525892/CurrentDmesg.txt <- popey, your dmesg is spammed with errors
[11:47] <popey> yes
[11:47] <ali1234> likely the real bug scrolled off the end :(
[11:47] <popey> the keyboard failing
[11:48] <ali1234> you should check in the /var/log/messages or whatever it is called these days, in case there is anything else relevant
[11:48] <ali1234> /var/log/syslog maybe
[11:48] <bigcalm> ali1234: I don't know how these things work
[11:48] <bigcalm> I have discounts on my contract I don't want to lose
[11:48] <ali1234> you won't lose anything
[11:49] <ali1234> you might have to negotiate
[11:49] <popey> you'll just carry on paying what you were paying
[11:49]  * bigcalm reluctantly waits
[11:49] <ali1234> no you won't
[11:49] <popey> why not?
[11:49] <ali1234> you will pay "standard price" until you renew the contract
[11:49] <ali1234> then you will pay your cheaper negotiated rate
[11:49] <popey> thats not what happens in my experience
[11:49] <bigcalm> T-Mobile
[11:49] <ali1234> yes, i use t-mobile
[11:50] <bigcalm> Friend's and Family half price line rental
[11:50] <ali1234> what
[11:50] <bigcalm> :)
[11:50] <ali1234> never heard of it
[11:50] <ali1234> this is a mobile contract right?
[11:50] <bigcalm> I don't think it exists any more.
[11:50] <bigcalm> No, it's a discount
[11:50] <bigcalm> A friend of mine used to work for T-Mobile
[11:50] <ali1234> how can you have half price line rental?
[11:51] <bigcalm> She got me that discount back when I would keep the discount even if she left
[11:51] <ali1234> how much is full price line rental?
[11:51] <bigcalm> Good question
[11:51] <bigcalm> 35 quid I think
[11:52] <ali1234> so you're paying 17.50 per month *just* for having the contract, plus whatever extras?
[11:52] <bigcalm> And it gets applied to any other contract I renew with (iirc)
[11:52] <bigcalm> That includes a handset
[11:52] <ali1234> i pay £10 a month and that includes a handset
[11:52] <ali1234> and "unlimited" internet
[11:52] <bigcalm> Ho hum
[11:53] <ali1234> basically i think your "discount" is so old it is no longer a discount
[11:53] <bigcalm> Which tarrif is that?
[11:53] <ali1234> i dunno, the cheapest one obviously
[11:53] <bigcalm> What handset did you get with it?
[11:53] <ali1234> a very cheap one
[11:53] <bigcalm> I don't want a very cheap one :)
[11:54] <ali1234> lol nokia lumia 710 is FREE
[11:54] <ali1234> oh wait, US store
[11:54] <directhex> the lumia 710 is currently the lowest-end lumia
[11:54] <directhex> it's a £280 handset, so free is a normal price to charge on a contract
[11:55] <ali1234> yeah all the phones are free
[11:55] <bigcalm> From the t-mobile site, the cheapest 18 month contract with 750mb/month is 26quid
[11:55] <ali1234> no
[11:55] <ali1234> you are reading it wrong
[11:56] <ali1234> the cheapest if £15/month
[11:56] <bigcalm> And to have the sgs2 on that would be an extra 150 quid
[11:56] <ali1234> then you get £5 off for renewing
[11:57] <bigcalm> Why can I never remember my t-mobile login?
[11:57] <bigcalm> Grr
[12:01] <bigcalm> So you think that I can leave everything alone until the sgs3 is out?
[12:01] <ali1234> no probably not
[12:01] <bigcalm> Grumble
[12:02] <ali1234> so let me get this straight
[12:02] <bigcalm> I'll pop into a shop at some point soon to check what the score is
[12:02] <ali1234> under your current contract
[12:02] <ali1234> you pick the £36/month contract, get the free phone, but then only pay £18?
[12:03] <bigcalm> I checked my account, it's 29.79 with a 14.90 discount
[12:03] <bigcalm> That includes 180 quid of credit to use on calls and texts
[12:04] <ali1234> the plans are totally different now
[12:04] <bigcalm> My last bill was 17.87, due to vat
[12:04] <ali1234> if you let the contract expire you can do this
[12:05] <ali1234> get a 24 month, £36/month contract, with internet, 600mins/600texts, get £5 off that for renewing, and get the SGS II for freeeee
[12:05] <ali1234> so assuming the SGS3 is same price you could do that
[12:06] <bigcalm> That would double what I'm paying already and lock me into 24 months
[12:06] <ali1234> so
[12:06] <ali1234> you have to renew then
[12:07] <ali1234> also who cares about 24 months?
[12:07] <ali1234> it's only an extra 6 monthsa
[12:07] <bigcalm> Only 6 months? Do you know how painful it is for a gadget freak to wait a few days?
[12:07] <ali1234> if you renew a legacy contract they quite likely won't give you a new phone
[12:07] <bigcalm> They did last time
[12:08] <ali1234> also i would point ut that if you had got the 24 month contract last time you wouldn't have this problem
[12:08] <bigcalm> I already had my Nexus One, so I let Hayley pick a phone she wanted - HTC Wildfire
[12:09] <bigcalm> No, I'd still be stuck with my Nexus One
[12:09] <ali1234> w/e let me know how it works out anyway
[12:09] <bigcalm> Will do :)
[12:09] <ali1234> i need to renew in june i think
[12:13] <popey> Uhm, is it just me or does the term "Software updater" sound wrong
[12:13] <bigcalm> How so?
[12:13] <bigcalm> Maybe it's the er re
[12:14] <popey> no, it's just the word "updater"
[12:14] <popey> it looks and sounds wrong
[12:14] <popey> like something my 5 year old would say
[12:14] <bigcalm> Should it be updatr?
[12:15] <popey> nvm
[12:15] <bigcalm> :D
[12:20] <bigcalm> My dad has a WordPress site he's been working on and needs to show it to a committee in an off-line situation. Which would be better, a) set up a apache, php and mysql on his windows laptop or b) install Ubuntu in a vbox?
[12:21] <MooDoo> bigcalm: put it on a live server and just password protect the folder using .htaccess
[12:21] <bigcalm> MooDoo: you didn't read the part where I said it was in an off-line situation
[12:21] <bigcalm> No internet access
[12:22] <bigcalm> The site is already being hosted on my bytemark server
[12:22] <MooDoo> bigcalm: i did read that part it just didn't compute lol
[12:22] <bigcalm> :)
[12:23] <ali1234> virtualbox will be easier to set up and significantly easier to remove afterwards
[12:23] <ali1234> don't try to use the packaged wordpress though, it's anightmare
[12:25] <bigcalm> ali1234: the site already exists (I set it up and used wordpress.org for the tarball). I think he just wants a way of demoing it.
[12:27] <bigcalm> I'll walk him though a few things and then do the rest via ssh to his machine
[12:27] <shauno> If its already being hosted on an ubuntu server, I'd just build the same thing up in a VM. Less chance of surprises
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> GAH
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> Kernel security update -> 650034983 emails on the security-announce list
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> one for every flavour of arm
[12:29] <bigcalm> The hardest part will be walking him though setting up port forwarding on the router
[12:30] <bigcalm> Hehe, nice
[12:56] <gord> buying ebooks really isn't that convenient when you have to turn the house over trying to find where you put your kindle after purchasing the ebook
[12:59] <dwatkins> gord: perhaps you should put one of these on it ;) http://www.amazon.com/FINDER-LOCATOR-WHISTLE-LIGHT-CHAIN/dp/B001DVS8T0
[13:00] <dwatkins> that reminds me, I was going to try and build one of those which works with a very narrow range of frequencies so it doesn't get set-off by just talking.
[13:02] <gord> dwatkins, it turned out to be in a drawer that i put all my computer stuff, i think the problem isn't the kindle but rather me ;)
[13:03] <dwatkins> gord: why solve a perfectly normal psychological issue of forgetting where you put things with better organisation, when you can get out the soldering iron and ignore the fact you're forgetful? ;)
[13:04] <AlanBell> http://www.barsoho.co.uk/
[13:04] <gord> it would be fun to make a kindle dock of some sort that it can be thrown in to charge
[13:04] <dwatkins> gord: yeah, I made a Lego stand for my phone with the charging lead held in the bottom
[13:05] <daubers> gord: Or just do it wirelessly like the palm pre's did
[13:05] <gord> daubers, wirelessly?
[13:05] <gord> like that magnet thing?
[13:05] <daubers> gord: The magnet touchstone thingy
[13:06] <dwatkins> my previous toothbrush charged with magnetic induction
[13:12] <BigRedS> I'm sure that's supposed to be mainstream by now
[13:13] <BigRedS> I'm really hoping it gets into the iPhone5
[13:13] <popey> ʘ‿ಠ
[13:14] <gord> seems like its still pretty inefficient
[13:14] <gord> would be nice to have it built into a table though
[13:14] <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1624/detail/
[13:15] <DJones> Sheesh, just been told that there a queues a mile long for local petrol stations and the tesco petrol station ran out of fuel early morning
[13:15] <directhex> DJones, threat of strike?
[13:16] <DJones> directhex: seems like it
[13:16] <directhex> hm
[13:16] <DJones> Listening on the radio last night, they weren't planning anything until the easter weekend at the earliest, so the people filling up now will probably run out before then anyway
[13:19] <popey> DJones: I won't ☺
[13:19] <AlanBell> probably people topping up with £10 of fuel
[13:19] <AlanBell> they should impose a minimum £50 spend at the pumps to discourage timewasters
[13:19] <DJones> I need to fill up tomorrow for work, and then again over easter for a drive down to minehead
[13:19] <BigRedS> My bike can only take £30!
[13:20] <AlanBell> with exceptions for bikes :)
[13:20] <DJones> AlanBell: The exception for bikes being only applicable if they've got pedals
[13:21] <BigRedS> :(
[13:24] <directhex> AlanBell, erm, great... know how hard it is to empty my tank enough to take £50 of petrol?
[13:24] <gord> open tank, turn bike upside down
[13:25] <directhex> it's a 1.4 tonne car
[13:27] <dwatkins> my Peugeot 306 costs 60 quid to fill when I let the diesel tank get to just under 1/4 full
[13:27] <dwatkins> AlanBell: what about if you run out of petrol and have to fill a petrol can?
[13:28] <christel> then you had better have a very large can!
[13:29] <directhex> christel, on wheels!
[13:29] <DJones> Add an engine & steering and you've got a 2nd car :)
[13:29] <directhex> dwatkins, i'm paying about £48 when i let the tank go down to 1 bar out of 10
[13:30] <directhex> the only lower value is flashing warning light
[13:30] <dwatkins> directhex: what kind of car?
[13:31] <directhex> dwatkins, prius
[13:32] <dwatkins> I assume my tank is somewhere around the 70 litre mark
[13:33] <dwatkins> perhaps only 60, actually
[13:34] <popey> Mine costs ~100 to fill up ☹
[13:34] <directhex> dwatkins, 2nd gen prius has 45L tank.
[13:34] <dwatkins> wow and wow
[13:35] <popey> Volvo V70 Diesel
[13:35] <directhex> so in theory a £62 fill from dry
[13:35] <popey> if it's completely empty it's about 100 quid
[13:35] <directhex> never let it get empty enough to pay that
[13:35] <directhex> don't want to find out how well the electronic doodads react to loss of power
[13:38] <DJones> Just worked out, mine will cost about £85 to fill from empty
[13:39] <Nafallo> are you talking about bandwidth to fill each persons favourite external hard drive?
[13:39]  * quackers car is a 4.4 litre v8 BMW - not cheap to fill up
[13:40] <Nafallo> oh. cars. blah.
[13:40] <DJones> quackers: 4.4L V8, How many gallons to the mile do you get out of that
[13:40] <quackers> 3 :-)
[13:41] <quackers> in its whole life it is averaging just under 22 mpg
[13:42] <DJones> That has got to be painful running, I got rid of a Kia Sedonna that averaged about 25-30 because it was too expensive to run
[13:42] <quackers> It's getting on a bit now and would cost more to change than it costs to run
[13:42] <quackers> don't do too many miles nowadays
[13:43] <quackers> golf club and back and weekly snooker matches
[13:45] <DJones> Sounds a relaxing life (apart from the golf)
[13:46] <quackers> not working atm but too skint to play golf every day, sadly
[13:46] <DJones> I always remember what my Grandad said about golf "Why spoil a long walk" and he played golf
[13:47] <selinuxium> AlanBell, Yay! Party!
[13:47] <quackers> it's true
[13:48] <BigRedS> selinuxium: but on a thursday!
[13:48] <selinuxium> BigRedS, Aren't they always on a Thursday?
[13:48] <gordonjcp> quackers: that's pretty good, I had a Citroen XM that got around 24mpg if you stayed out of the second half of the rev counter
[13:49] <quackers> :-)
[13:49] <BigRedS> selinuxium: possibly. I remember having this surprise a few times ebfore
[13:49] <gordonjcp> since in top 2700rpm equated to 80mph this wasn't terribly hard
[13:49] <gordonjcp> *70mph
[13:49] <selinuxium> BigRedS, You going? Been a while sine I have seen you
[13:49] <selinuxium> *since
[13:50] <gordonjcp> quackers: on a slight downslope it would touch the rev limiter at 6500rpm, and 6000 on the flat
[13:50] <BigRedS> selinuxium: yeah, I think we meet at release dos :)
[13:50] <BigRedS> I'll try
[13:50] <gordonjcp> quackers: I'll let you do the mental arithmetic
[13:50] <BigRedS> I work in The North now...
[13:51] <BigRedS> so I need to arrange to, er, not
[13:51] <gordonjcp> quackers: it wasn't doing 24mpg any more by that point ;-)
[13:51] <quackers> no, definitely not :-)
[13:52] <oimon> my first game of drawsomething..user resigned. meh
[13:52] <gordonjcp> my mate had an E32 735i that would actually get about 22mpg around town
[13:52] <gordonjcp> thirsty, but what a way to go broke
[13:53] <popey> you were at the last one iirc BigRedS
[13:53] <gordonjcp> quackers: especially since he was unemployed ;-)
[13:54] <gordonjcp> insurance was about £200 a year even in Glasgow, it's too old to go on the sliding scale tax
[13:54] <BigRedS> popey: yeah, I've been at the last few
[13:54] <quackers> 540 mine, but similar engine
[13:54] <quackers> good fun :-)
[13:59] <gordonjcp> quackers: thing with the old ones is, they're so easy to get bits for and relatively cheap to ensure
[14:00] <oimon> anyone play draw something?
[14:01] <quackers> yes, mine's not old enough for the really cheap insurance yet, but it's not too bad. Parts yes, they're all still available
[14:06] <selinuxium> BigRedS, LOL
[14:09] <bigcalm> Walked into town and back for lunch as it's such a lovely day. Should have taken a watch with me, whoops
[14:10] <davmor2> bigcalm: 2 hour lunch break again
[14:23] <bigcalm> I did read some work emails at subway
[14:24] <bigcalm> So that counts as a working lunch
[14:24] <quackers> sound like a lawyer :-)
[14:36] <Nafallo> hmmm. subway...
[14:36] <Nafallo> it's been too long.
[14:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yay! Release Party!, Followed by Beerex, Followed by Beerex. Blimey - going to be a hard & extended weekend for my liver
[14:49] <popey> followed by flight to america
[14:49] <popey> ⍨
[14:50] <davmor2> popey: dead liver and jetlag nice combo
[14:50] <popey> hah
[14:51] <gord> popey, you spending the entire week at uds?
[14:53] <popey> yeah
[14:53] <popey> two weeks
[14:53] <gord> ouch
[14:53] <gord> oh is this your first two week uds? you'll be a zombie like me!
[14:53] <gord> yaaay zombies
[14:55] <Laney> what happens the week before?
[14:55] <directhex> all hands meeting?
[14:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> Talking of Beerex and drinkies.
[14:55] <gord> its convenient to structure sprints around uds, we have the hotel, people are flying out anyway, so there are sprints beforehand
[14:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: AlanBell we have one ticket left - assuming it is popey +1.
[14:56] <popey> should be
[14:56] <popey> i can check with him
[14:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: Anyone you want to invite>
[14:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> s\>\?
[15:02] <christel> meee
[15:02] <christel> don't forget meee
[15:04] <MooDoo> christel: no one could forget you
[15:09] <popey> bug 138365
[15:17] <Azelphur> Gah, trying to put the Joli OS image on my joggler, but it runs out of space dding to my 4GB usb drive :(
[15:35] <ikonia> directhex: ping
[15:35] <directhex> yo
[15:35] <ikonia> yo !,
[15:35] <ikonia> 30 seconds to drop you a quick pm
[15:36] <directhex> go ahead
[15:37] <Myrtti> huuu
[15:37] <Myrtti> is the openid at launchpad down?
[15:38] <Myrtti> oh it was only a glitch
[15:38] <Myrtti> got worried there for a while
[15:38] <oimon> surprise, surprise, the bottom fo the ocean is dull
[15:39] <quackers> Has anybody else noticed that the Ubuntu root file size increases every day in Precise? Recently mine's gone from about 4.7G to 5.7G and I've cleared out all old kernels. Is it just mine?
[15:39] <popey> its wet too
[15:39] <popey> sudo apt-get clean
[15:39] <popey> packages in /var/cache/apt/
[15:39] <quackers> is it safe on testing Precise?
[15:39] <popey> /dev/sda1            216G  171G   35G  84% /
[15:39] <popey> alan@deep-thought:~$ sudo apt-get clean
[15:39] <popey> /dev/sda1            216G  170G   36G  83% /
[15:39] <popey> \o/
[15:41] <quackers> Ha! clean got rid of 850M, thanks popey
[15:42] <popey> np
[15:42] <quackers> much leaner now :-)
[15:45] <Azelphur> mgdm: could you perhaps take a look at my attempt at lartc? http://pastebin.com/tbb31t3B
[15:46] <Azelphur> the goal being to limit all traffic from the www-data user
[15:48] <Azelphur> or besides that, does anyone know how I might make a clone/something of a network interface? the goal being to put the webserver on that interface, and then rate limit just that interface
[15:53] <popey> yeah, you can create aliases and give them IPs
[15:54] <popey> and then bind the app to that IP only
[15:54] <popey> like eth0:1 and eth0:2
[15:54] <Azelphur> popey: tell me how and I'll love you forever, I've been trying to put a rate limit on my webserver for about 10 hours solid.
[15:54] <popey> separate stanzas in /etc/network/interfaces
[15:54] <popey> linux
[15:54] <popey> bah
[15:54] <popey> http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/ubuntu-linux-creating-ethernet-alias-for-eth0-network-device.html
[15:54] <Azelphur> how would that work? would I have to port forward?
[15:54] <popey> that kind of thing
[15:55] <popey> you'd get a new IP on the network
[15:55] <popey> so apache would be on a different IP which you could rate limit with tools like wondershaper
[15:55] <Azelphur> yea, wondershaper is exactly my plan
[15:55] <Azelphur> but this is for my dedicated server I don't have any available IPs
[15:56] <Azelphur> plus my server seems to do some dark magic involving one interface having multiple addresses, not quite sure how that works
[15:58] <Azelphur> popey: http://collabedit.com/p5u9s like that
[16:00] <Azelphur> haha, someone likes collabedit, it's multiplayer notepad :)
[16:01] <mgdm> Azelphur: I'll look, but it's years since I did that - that page was just the first hit for 'nginx traffic shaping' in google
[16:01] <Azelphur> haha \o/
[16:01] <Azelphur> mgdm: better than nothing, the lartc irc channel is dead in the water
[16:04] <Azelphur> popey: ah, I bet I can just use that article you linked, create a fake interface on a local like 127.0.0.2 then just forward port 80 to it with iptables, rate limit, and solution \o/
[16:05] <mgdm> careful, aliases in iptables don't quite work as you'd expect
[16:05] <Azelphur> oh?
[16:06] <Azelphur> well I'm guessing this wouldn't even need to be an alias
[16:06] <oimon> overheard somebody referring to "macintrash". cant take him seriously
[16:06] <mgdm> you can't do 'iptables -A INPUT -i eth0:1', it doesn't know about eth0:1 from what I rememeber
[16:07] <Azelphur> mgdm: ah, but it could probably do it to the IP address
[16:08] <Azelphur> I'm testing on my local machine, so no need to worry too much about breaking things
[16:32] <Azelphur> mgdm: having any luck? or should I start bashing at t he alias thing \o/
[16:32] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: the :1 bits are aliases, used for iptables
[16:33] <MartijnVdS> "ip" and "iptables" don't want/need them, use the IP instead :)
[16:36] <Azelphur> gah, I can't wondershaper an alias
[16:36] <Azelphur> :'(
[16:36] <popey> can you wondershaper an IP?
[16:37] <Azelphur> popey: nope
[16:40] <Azelphur> I think my only option for doing this is running the webserver inside a VM and using wondershaper inside the vm...crazy :/
[16:44] <popey> or rate limit the webserver itself?
[16:44] <popey> apache?
[16:44] <Azelphur> nginx is amazingly the only webserver without a setting for that
[16:44] <popey> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/131681/apache-rate-limiting-options
[16:44] <Azelphur> trust me, I've looked
[16:44] <popey> oh
[16:45] <Azelphur> it has limit_rate but that's per connection rather than globally :(
[16:45] <Azelphur> apparently because it forks itself into separate threads it can't do it
[16:45] <Nafallo> just plug in another network cable ;-)
[16:45] <Azelphur> Nafallo: fly to new york...break into data center... :p
[16:45] <Nafallo> hmmm
[16:46] <Nafallo> here's an idea... ask for a tagged vlan on your port and try if wondershaper works on the virtual interface? :-)
[16:46] <Nafallo> actually. I'm not at all sure it would :-P
[16:46] <Nafallo> and it would be messy regardless.
[16:47] <Azelphur> I've tested locally by creating eth0:1 and as soon as I applied wondershaper, it rate limited eth0
[16:47] <Nafallo> heh
[16:47] <Azelphur> it ignores the alias and just rate limits the "upstream" interface
[16:47] <Nafallo> excellent.
[16:47] <Nafallo> it works on a lower level then :-)
[16:47] <Azelphur> indeed
[16:47] <Nafallo> just get another server ;-)
[16:47] <Nafallo> move the site
[16:47] <Azelphur> spend all the monies \o/
[16:48] <Nafallo> who needs them anyway? ;-)
[16:48] <Azelphur> me :D
[16:48] <Nafallo> they are just going to sit there using fields in your banks databases :-P
[16:48] <Nafallo> save the bank some bytes!
[16:48] <Azelphur> haha
[16:48] <Nafallo> hard drives are expensive damnit
[17:22] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: I know what the aliases are
[17:22] <mgdm> I've been using them for *years*
[17:22] <mgdm> I also know that the iptables command doesn't work with them, it just sees 'eth0' and gets on with it
[17:33] <Azelphur> mgdm: indeed, I'm back to stuck then
[17:51] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: yeah.. I've stopped using them :)
[17:51] <MartijnVdS> \o/ ip addr
[18:03] <ali1234> Azelphur: just get another IP like you had before
[18:04] <ali1234> you used to have like 32
[18:04] <Azelphur> ali1234: I can get IPs I can't get interfaces
[18:04] <ali1234> problem?
[18:04] <Azelphur> problem, wondershaper can only shape an interface
[18:04] <ali1234> don't use wondershaper jeez
[18:04] <Azelphur> would love some suggestions
[18:05] <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1624/detail/ 16 people coming already :)
[18:47] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: http://lartc.org/howto/lartc.qdisc.advice.html
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: One simple TBF should do
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: "To purely slow down outgoing traffic, use the Token Bucket Filter. Works up to huge bandwidths, if you scale the bucket."
[18:48] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: http://lartc.org/howto/lartc.qdisc.classless.html#AEN691
[18:48] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I've been down this route, I wrote some tc stuff and it just won't work :(
[18:48] <Azelphur> and the mailing list / irc channel for it is dead.
[18:50] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: in fact, I've even found various examples of tc usage online, and none of them work either.
[18:50] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: http://www.funtoo.org/wiki/Traffic_Control ?
[18:50] <Azelphur> doesn't display any information at all about why it's not working, it just silently fails :(
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: tc -s qdisc ls dev eth0 (or whatever device)
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: that should list the qdiscs you've defined + how often they're used
[18:51] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: class = filters = "if this matches, do something"
[18:53] <Azelphur> well, that's even more fun
[18:53] <Azelphur> it sees my limits, it even catches the packets absolutely correctly
[18:53] <Azelphur> it just doesn't impose the limit.
[18:53] <Azelphur> http://pastebin.com/tbb31t3B is what I'm doing
[18:54] <Azelphur> http://pastebin.com/YdUV5bck is the info
[18:56] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: ah, ok...this is really odd
[18:57] <Azelphur> if I request http://192.168.1.10/ and it loads my local drupal install, the filter catches it
[18:57] <Azelphur> if I request my large test file, http://192.168.1.10/10g.img it doesn't.
[18:57] <MartijnVdS> is drupal running as a different user?
[18:58] <MartijnVdS> or the apache?
[18:58] <MartijnVdS> or whatever you're using
[18:58] <AlanBell> things you can do with big phones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBrmaE82uY4&feature=colike
[18:58] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: what if you use output + source-port?
[18:58] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: well, it's targetting the www-data user, so unless apache is spawning another process to serve static files that isn't www-data :S
[18:58] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I could do that
[19:00] <MartijnVdS> it shouldn't be doing that (spawning) but you never know :)
[19:02] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: do you know the iptables foo for that? I'm unfamiliar with everything :(
[19:03] <mgdm> I didn't think iptables could do anything user-specific
[19:03] <mgdm> never tried, mind - that's somewhere off in "weird stuff" land
[19:03] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: iptables -t mangle -A OUTPUT  -p tcp --sport 80 -j MARK etc.
[19:04] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: it can do so.. but it eats CPU a lot
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: If only Ubuntu released 2 weeks later :)
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: (then I'd be at the release party)
[19:06] <AlanBell> aww
[19:07] <AlanBell> Azelphur: maybe something with bridged networking to put the web server on a different logical interface, then slow down that interface
[19:08] <Azelphur> if I can get the webserver onto it's own interface, that would indeed work as I could wondershaper that interface
[19:08] <Azelphur> also, the whole thing appears to have grinded to a halt and I can't detect any packets any more :(
[19:11] <daftykins> Azelphur: cor no luck so far eh?
[19:11] <Azelphur> daftykins: nope, I spent 9 hours on this yesterday too
[19:12] <Azelphur> ridiculously difficult \o/
[19:12] <daftykins> ouchies
[19:12] <daftykins> they're annoying those tasks that should be simple but then clearly aren't once you get going
[19:13] <Azelphur> indeed
[19:13] <daftykins> the worst is when you break something that worked normally before
[19:13] <daftykins> i did that a lot when trying to learn to lockdown a friends VPS
[19:13] <Azelphur> and of course the "this is easy on windows" thing >.<
[19:13] <daftykins> trying to get multiple apache processes running as different users etc.
[19:13] <Azelphur> which is annoying because I hate windows in general lol
[19:13] <daftykins> :D
[19:16] <Azelphur> oO, I found an example of exactly what I want to do, and it's in the lartc documentation
[19:16] <Azelphur> inb4 it doesn't work
[19:20] <daftykins> Azelphur: doesn't work?
[19:20] <daftykins> how cruel
[19:22] <Azelphur> even better, I seem to have crashed gnome-terminal
[19:22] <daftykins> \o/
[19:22] <daftykins> Azelphur: is your display setup bug free these days? :)
[19:25] <Azelphur> well, that caused the entire OS to freeze
[19:25] <Azelphur> managed to drop to a TTY and get it back
[19:25] <Azelphur> daftykins: same as usual :)
[19:26] <daftykins> :O
[19:26] <daftykins> fun times
[19:26] <daftykins> no progress made eh?
[19:26] <MartijnVdS> does anyone know of a good "solar battery charger" (charge thing in sun, later: attach thing to phone, charge phone)
[19:27] <mgdm> there was one called a Freeloader a while back tat I used
[19:27] <mgdm> it was OK, from what I remember
[19:28] <diplo> Evening all
[19:28] <daftykins> heya
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: most that I'm finding have tiny panels
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: which probably means they take ages to charge
[19:30] <daftykins> i read that as "tiny pedals" first :D
[19:30] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: there's one with an extended pair of panels that folds out, which wasn't too bad
[19:30] <mgdm> it was being used on a yacht
[19:31] <Azelphur> daftykins: lol wow, pidgin locked up for like 5 minutes
[19:31] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: I'm planning on using it while riding a bike around the Netherlands :)
[19:31] <Azelphur> but yea, no progress made, detects packets but doesn't limit.
[19:31] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: did you read the entire funtoo article? It set up multiple root/child qdiscs
[19:33] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I've literally found an example on the official documentation that is supposed to "limit webserver traffic to 5mbit", I copy and pasted it exactly, ran it, it ran successfully, the queues have been created and are detecting traffic, I'm still able to download at some 25MB/sec
[19:33] <Azelphur> tc either doesn't work or the documentation is wrong, I'm guessing the first since I've tried so many things with it
[19:33] <daftykins> is this all local host?
[19:33] <daftykins> on your testing still?
[19:33] <Azelphur> yea
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: try from another host
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: localhost might be special
[19:34] <daftykins> Azelphur: i bet it's cheating by going loopback
[19:34] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I'm trying to http://192.168.1.10
[19:34] <daftykins> thus missing your modifications, if they're interface driven
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: try from another machine
[19:34] <Azelphur> ok
[19:34] <Azelphur> another machine inside LAN? or outside
[19:34] <daftykins> inside should be fine
[19:34] <daftykins> so it goes over the configured interface
[19:37] <Azelphur> daftykins / MartijnVdSstill nope, inside the network and it's doing 11MB/sec
[19:37] <Azelphur> the example I'm using is on http://lartc.org/howto/lartc.qdisc.classful.html do a ctrl+f for webserver
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> You'd have to ask a Linux networking guru
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> :(
[19:39] <Azelphur> indeed, I've been trying to find one but not having much luck
[19:39] <MartijnVdS> maybe it only really limits once it's saturated?
[19:39] <daftykins> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2011/01/02
[19:39] <MartijnVdS> so if the link is 100% full with "other" traffic, only 5 mbits will be taken from the 100% to go to the webserver?
[19:40] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I thought about that, so I changed all the 100mbits down to really low, but still nope
[19:42] <daftykins> Azelphur: i'd probably wimp out, VM it and restrict the interface of the VM :D
[19:43] <daftykins> but then that's easy for me as my web server *is* a VM
[19:43] <Azelphur> yea, I think it's the only way to do it which is really annoying :/
[19:43] <Azelphur> what would you recommend VM wise?
[19:43] <daftykins> in terms of?
[19:43] <daftykins> the product?
[19:43] <Azelphur> in terms of I run a dedicated server and I'm probably going to need to bottle my webserver
[19:43] <MartijnVdS> which vm tech
[19:43] <Azelphur> yea
[19:44] <daftykins> ah not sure, i'm running vmware atop windows 7 on my file server
[19:44] <Azelphur> I quite like virtualbox for desktop but dunno how well that'd work on a server
[19:44] <Azelphur> haha
[19:44] <daftykins> :D
[19:44] <daftykins> in fact i'm typing right now SSH'd from England via the VM that sits next to it, dedicated to irssi XD
[19:45] <daftykins> my laptop here has virtualbox on, first time i've used it practically, not sure what networking controls it has
[19:45] <daftykins> Azelphur: the other thought i had is that maybe you could do something with bridge utilities to tap a fake interface into your LAN, then speed limit that
[19:45] <daftykins> but i don't even know if that's possible, thats a total guess
[19:46] <Azelphur> yea, I had that idea too but no real idea on how to do it or if it's possible
[19:46] <daftykins> hmm
[19:48] <MartijnVdS> it _is_ possible
[19:48] <MartijnVdS> I've done it
[19:49] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: there's a bandwidth limiting bit in iptables as well
[19:49] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: :O where? that would be great
[19:49] <Azelphur> I've tried to find something like that but I found nothing
[19:50] <MartijnVdS> oh it's only connection rate limiting I think
[19:50] <MartijnVdS> max X connects/time unit
[19:51] <Azelphur> yea that's all I could find :(
[19:51] <MartijnVdS> http://luxik.cdi.cz/~devik/qos/htb/manual/userg.htm ?
[19:51] <daftykins> the sound is really carrying from the Portsmouth stadium
[19:51] <daftykins> match on tonight ;/
[19:52] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I really think at this point that tc is broken, my rules are clearly in place correctly, it's catching the packets, but it's not rate limiting at all
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: http://www.wlug.org.nz/TrafficControl
[19:52] <Azelphur> the mailing list for it has been dead for years and the IRC channel is just full of idlers...it's dead
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: it's not
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> tc is not dead, it's alive and well
[19:52] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I've literally been trying any old example I can find online, none of them work any more
[19:53] <Azelphur> I can't seem to find a single sucessful tc use case, at all
[19:53] <daftykins> odd stuff
[19:54] <Azelphur> indeed
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: there's something in those HOWTOs about "the kernel only talking to root" and "qdiscs being local"
[19:54] <Azelphur> it could be something wrong with my system
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> so I think it's a theory problem
[19:54] <Azelphur> o.O
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> as in "We all know too little of the theory behind tc"
[19:55] <mgdm> I once mistyped the limit in wondershaper, and ended up limiting the internal interface to 500Kbit/sec
[19:55] <Azelphur> perhaps
[19:55] <Azelphur> mgdm: did it actually work?
[19:55] <mgdm> I got a phone call within 5 minutes to tell me that my script was working "very well thanks, now please turn it off"
[19:55] <Azelphur> haha
[19:56] <Azelphur> don't suppose you have a backup of that script
[19:56] <Azelphur> I'd really like to test it, just to see if any form of tc limiting at all actually works, I really think it's broken somehow
[19:56] <mgdm> this was a couple of years ago and I no longer work there
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/linux-traffic-shaping-using-tc-to-control-http-traffic/ ?
[19:56] <mgdm> but it was just the wondershaper script with a couple of things fiddled
[19:57] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: one of the many pages I've tried the exact example from, so I know that one don't work :)
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: it shows "add a 200ms delay to all traffic" rule that should be testable with ping
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: I'm trying it now
[19:57] <Azelphur> ah
[19:57] <Azelphur> I'll try that too
[19:57] <daftykins> ooh
[19:57] <Azelphur> yep, the latency one works...holy crap something actually works.
[19:58] <MartijnVdS> the ping delay works
[19:58] <Azelphur> lemme have another try with the http outbound example
[19:58] <MartijnVdS> the cyberciti one has explanations of what each command should do
[19:58] <MartijnVdS> that's helpful :)
[19:59] <MartijnVdS> you need to define both a rate and a ceil, and a total rate for the parent I think?
[20:00] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: woo, I think we're in business
[20:00] <MartijnVdS> *\o/*
[20:00] <Azelphur> yea, it's working...haha
[20:01] <MartijnVdS> See, it's a problem of us all not knowing the theory behind it :)
[20:01] <Azelphur> \o/
[20:01]  * Azelphur hugs everyone for helping with that
[20:01] <daftykins> :O
[20:01] <Azelphur> been driving me up the wall big time not being able to do it
[20:01] <daftykins> was anything different?
[20:01] <Azelphur> I have no idea
[20:01] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: now send a thank-you email to the author of that page :)
[20:02] <daftykins> now document it in your logbook!
[20:02] <daftykins> :)
[20:02] <Azelphur> I'm adopting a "For the love of god don't touch it, EVER." policy on that script
[20:02] <Azelphur> haha
[20:02] <daftykins> XD
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: still, bookmark that page just in case
[20:02] <Azelphur> yea, I will do
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: better: save a copy locally (you know how these blogs bitrot over time)
[20:02] <Azelphur> I'll put a link to it in the header of my script too
[20:02] <Azelphur> archive.org *shrug*
[20:03] <daftykins> speaking of which my Guernsey domain is up for renewal soon
[20:03] <daftykins> £45 for a year =|
[20:03] <daftykins> rip. off.
[20:03] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: wht's the extension?
[20:03] <daftykins> .gg
[20:03] <daftykins> :>
[20:03] <MartijnVdS> gg
[20:03] <daftykins> one can't buy wp.gg :(
[20:04] <MartijnVdS> e.gg
[20:04] <AlanBell> want
[20:04] <mgdm> o.gg
[20:04] <daftykins> ;)
[20:04] <daftykins> Jersey's is .je
[20:04] <daftykins> i tried to buy www.jeje.je
[20:04]  * mgdm has hebrid.es
[20:04] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: that's actually "you" in Dutch :)
[20:04] <daftykins> ooh nice
[20:04] <mgdm> not used it for anything yet, though
[20:05] <mgdm> and as I don't live there any more... well
[20:05] <daftykins> MartijnVdS: :D in that case me.je
[20:06] <MartijnVdS> Ooh.. "haat.je" is not registered. (hate you).. "ik@haat.je" would be "I hate you"...
[20:06] <daftykins> :>
[20:06] <daftykins> fancy not using love as an example
[20:07] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: that would be more than one word :)
[20:07] <daftykins> it would?
[20:07] <MartijnVdS> we're more efficient haters than lovers ;)
[20:07] <daftykins> lmao
[20:07] <daftykins> dutch love eh, harder to say
[20:07] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: "ik hou van je" vs "ik haat je"
[20:08] <daftykins> do the two parts make sense on their own? as in, is there a literal translation to each half?
[20:08] <MartijnVdS> well "Ik" = "I", "haat" = "hate", "je" is "you"
[20:09] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: hmm, I don't think that's matching quite right, the rules are affecting my ssh connections o.O
[20:09] <MartijnVdS> and "hou van" is a verb in two parts (verb + preposition)
[20:10] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: then you're marking it using iptables :)
[20:10] <Azelphur> iptables -A OUTPUT -t mangle -p tcp --sport 80 -j MARK --set-mark 10
[20:10] <Azelphur> is all I have
[20:10] <MartijnVdS> iptables -t mangle -L
[20:10] <daftykins> MartijnVdS: but "hou" and "van" ?
[20:10] <Azelphur> http://paste.ubuntu.com/902764/
[20:10] <daftykins> oh you said
[20:11] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: separately, they mean something different ("to hold" or "to keep") and "from"/"off"
[20:11] <daftykins> hmm interesting
[20:11] <MartijnVdS> more "of" really
[20:11] <MartijnVdS> Strange language is strange.
[20:11] <daftykins> :>
[20:13] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: the second example on that page works better :)
[20:15] <AlanBell> this glass is as empty as the bottle :(
[20:16] <daftykins> AlanBell: boo
[20:16] <daftykins> i'm on no kind of sauce tonight
[20:16] <daftykins> in fact boredom is fast approaching
[20:41] <Azelphur> has anyone seen buzz (the joggler guy) recently?
[20:55] <bigcalm> Aww, poor gary
[20:56] <daftykins> nick-denied :<
[20:56] <daftykins> or password forgotten
[21:08] <jacobw> evening
[21:09] <daftykins> heya
[21:09] <daftykins> how do?
[21:09] <jacobw> ok
[21:09] <jacobw> you?
[21:10] <daftykins> not too bad thanks :) electrician got all my jobs done today so making some progress slowly but surely
[21:10] <daftykins> fixing up a house in England to sell right now
[21:10] <daftykins> very slow going :(
[21:10] <daftykins> i could be back in Guernsey playing Mass Effect 3 with friends online ;)
[21:11] <daftykins> (srs bsns)
[21:11] <jacobw> that sounds fun
[21:12] <jacobw> i miss playing games with friends
[21:13] <daftykins> yeah online multiplayer can be good fun, plus it's a good way for those of us that don't live on the island anymore to keep in contact :)
[21:19] <jacobw> it can be hard to keep in contact
[21:19] <daftykins> yep
[21:19] <daftykins> ooh my, tired already
[21:20] <daftykins> so glad the time change is here giving sensible sunset times
[21:20] <jacobw> ha
[21:20] <jacobw> i noticed it was very light last night this night and didn't make the connection
[21:21] <daftykins> :D
[21:21] <daftykins> woohoo more sun for free \o/
[21:22] <jacobw> the sun on sunday :p
[21:24] <daftykins> ;)
[21:33] <AlanBell> https://plus.google.com/u/0/
[21:33] <AlanBell> oh that won't help much
[21:34] <AlanBell> https://plus.google.com/u/0/109175303602657131317/posts/ey258aucuqF
[21:34] <AlanBell> try that one :)
[21:37] <popey> moo
[21:37] <bigcalm> Oom
[21:37] <bigcalm> I guess I should listen to the last podcast :S
[23:30] <Davin66> server irc.dwc.za.net
[23:31] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Stuart Langridge] This time, more than any other time - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2012/03/27/this-time-more-than-any-other-time
[23:33] <mgdm> popey: is the oggcamp website meant to be quite as massively low-contrast? I can't read any of the links
[23:34] <mgdm> I suspect having to hit ctrl-a is not by design
[23:36] <Azelphur> I just went a bit crazy...found a bitcoin investment fund, bought...the whole thing
[23:36] <Azelphur> like...the whole fund, every share o.O
[23:36] <mgdm> bitcoin :(
[23:36] <Azelphur> haha
[23:36] <mgdm> I only ever hear about it when another exchange has been destroyed by a security problem
[23:36] <mgdm> never bothered to get into it myself
[23:38] <Azelphur> hehe
[23:51] <popey> mgdm: complain to fab ☺
[23:52] <mgdm> popey: I shall :)