[11:10] Good morning [11:11] morning [12:50] good mornin [12:51] does flav still idle here? [12:52] n0p: is there such a thing as idiomatic PHP? where can I learn about it? where is PHP's version of pep8 ? [12:52] yes, i'm doing PHP. lemme know if you would like a new job :) [12:52] widox: is the other PHP guy [12:52] Zend coding standards I think the pep8 of the php world [12:52] http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/coding-standard.html [12:53] thanks rick_h [12:53] I'm far enough out that idiomatic might be a stretch for me. I mean it does have namespaces now and such [12:54] i have not seen them used. [12:54] but that is a great point. i should be glad that classes are even used on thsi project :) [12:54] lol [12:55] it seems to have gotten better. I think I saw mixins in the latest release [12:56] we are still on 4.something, I think. [12:56] no way [12:56] oh, 5.3.10 [12:56] i'm surprised [12:56] well in that case you're doomed [12:56] well, its in an embeded system. [12:56] hehe. that is waht the indian guy said. [12:56] ah, ok better. So I think 5.3 added namespaces [12:57] yea, but I was using 5.1 5+ years ago [12:57] but basically the web front end for network appliances [12:57] but yea, ok 5.3 would be reasonable I'd think [12:57] ok, we are alreayd not following the first two of the zend coding standards. *sigh* [12:58] Zend_Db_Table lives in Zend/Db/ folder *sigh* [12:58] nope, not doing that eithr. [12:59] heh, well then have fun :) [12:59] its ok, a lot of these are stupid. [12:59] way too much java influence in teh PHP world. [13:00] PHP might as well just be typeless java :p [13:00] yea, but it's something. The trouble is that you can get away with doing none of it [13:00] jrwren: PHP for me is backwater Perl. :) [13:00] current codebase is doing none of it, and honestly, I think I like it ;) [13:01] snap-l: hehe, good point. maybe those that want to write java in perl choose php? [13:02] luckily i won't be doing this PHP for very long [13:02] famous last words. [13:02] jrwren: heh, if you want Java influenced PHP look at symfony [13:02] widox: i DONT want java influcenced php [13:03] jrwren: Oh come now, what could be better than half-assed OO in a half-assed template language? [13:04] (trololololol) [13:04] i have great respect for PHP. I love wordpress. [13:05] i'm convinced that it is possible to have a "good" php codebase. [13:05] i've just never seen one :) [13:05] because good is subjective [13:05] and what I think is bad, many p eople think is good. [13:05] and visa versa. [13:05] but I'm right, and tehy are wrong ;p [13:07] jrwren: I've seen some elegance in PHP code [13:07] much in the same way that I can see elegance in a broken teapot [13:08] And there are some good PHP codebases out there [13:08] i haven't looked at WP code in a while, has it cleaned up any? [13:08] and some that have some major issues. [13:08] jrwren: WP 3 made some pretty big improvements [13:08] i have hacked on some WP plugins recently, and its been damned easy. [13:41] about the only thing i got out of those zend coding standards were doc comments :( [14:03] 5.4 added traits [14:03] interesting. [14:03] yea [14:03] the more i learn about ruby, the more i love python [14:03] yep [14:04] and please don't repeat it around rubyists. i realize that statement is flamebait [14:04] there are a couple of things I like in ruby land, but really can't ever get where I want to do it vs python [14:25] http://dissociatedpress.net/2012/03/27/ubuntu-were-not-linux/ [14:25] ping rick_h [14:25] tjagoda: howdy [14:25] heh, saw that link. I pretty much ignore Joe :) [14:26] I think he's got the hots for SUSE [14:26] meh, he's got the hots for Canonical bashing. We had this argument around the Locos concept on OLF [14:26] Or some weird pseudo-communist view of open source contribution [14:26] He was once the OpenSUSE community manager [14:27] yea [14:27] his hatred of the brown and orange flows deep [14:27] I made a few replies, and he generally ignored my points about "Why is this surprising, they are operating at financial loss ffs" [14:29] tjagoda: yea, I mean he's not exactly been unbiased for some time. [14:32] it is kind of weird that they mask Linux under the Ubuntu brand though [14:32] I get why they do it [14:32] But it seems like a big risk of slighting people [14:34] rick_h: you on the michipug mailing list? [14:34] brousch: yea [14:34] last I looked I think. Pretty low key [14:34] ok, then i won't forward this to you [14:34] some guy asking about metro detroit python [14:34] k [14:36] brousch: ah ok I see the email. I'll reply about CHC and such. thanks [14:40] wow. [14:40] that ubuntu we're not linux post is scathing. [14:40] who is this jerk? [14:41] I know for sure that a lot of what he says is b.s. [14:41] Joe Brockmier [14:41] I'm uncomfortable when jrwren agrees with me [14:41] Feels like the universe has somehow lost balance [14:42] man, I need to update the CHC site still, I suck [14:42] anyone feel like volunteering to learn how to setup the appengine crap? [14:43] i have used appengine [14:47] i'd also be willing to learn. i'll be at CHC tomorrow [14:49] like anything, it has its good and bad points [14:49] Blazeix: cool, we'll make it a goal to get the site updated. It's a horrible little app [14:49] Blazeix: what's your gmail address you use mainly? [14:50] rick_h: wafuqua [14:50] Blazeix: ok, email sent [14:51] thanks, accepted [15:00] if it's little, how horrible can it be? [15:02] <_Marcus> Viruses are small, and yet they can still kill you. [15:14] Joe tends to be a more moderate opinion in the FLOSS world [15:14] but yeah, I think he's putting way too much stock in word choice [15:15] _Marcus: but they multiply into many. i don't think that's likely with a GAE app [15:15] really? that is moderate? [15:15] but, then again, he's a writer. Writers tend to choose their words very carefully, and expect the same in others. [15:15] well then fuck the FLOSS world. [15:15] jrwren: Compared with some of the tools I've seen, yes. [15:15] i do agree with him a bit about rhetoric toward RHAT. [15:16] jrwren: He at least acknowledges Ubuntu. :) [15:16] <_Marcus> brousch: GAE = Google App Engine? [15:16] what happened to "we are all in this together agianst the closed source vendors" [15:16] I think the biggest problem is people see Mark as a technologist [15:16] _Marcus: correct [15:16] when he's a very motivated salesperson [15:16] <_Marcus> brousch: Google products are strange things, you never know what could happen [15:17] jrwren: Agreed, but Mark Shuttleworth is trying to sell a product [15:17] plain and simple. [15:17] really? what product is that? [15:17] Ubuntu as a server [15:17] Ubuntu as a cloud platform [15:17] Ubuntu as a single-source for all of your server needs [15:18] then he is doing a terrible job, because I didn't even know about these product offereings :) [15:18] he needs to hire a salesforce. [15:18] speaking of which, who are his salesmen? [15:19] jrwren: That I couldn't tell you. [16:37] Ubuntu rolls up something like 1200 new cloud instances every day [16:37] According to an interview with their CEO [16:38] The sales departments are still in the process of growing, it was founded very engineer-heavy [16:38] tjagoda: As it should be [16:38] snap-l: why should it be enginner-heavy ? [16:38] At start up it should be [16:39] The rest of its life it should not be [16:39] does canonical even qualify as a startup anymore? its been 8 yrs, right? [16:39] jrwren: Once you get marketing folks involved, they tend to push out the engineers [16:39] I'd still call them a start up [16:39] They'll be start ups until they reach critical mass [16:40] did RHAT reach critical mass? [16:40] Definitely [16:40] what does critical mass even look like for RHAT or canonical ? [16:40] jrwren: I'd say once they go solely into maintenance mode, they'll stop being a start-up [16:40] They roll in the pimp moneydollars [16:40] jrwren: RHAT is no longer a start-up [16:40] they are the first OSS Billion dollar company [16:41] snap-l: but RHAT isn't solely in maintenance mode. [16:41] Red Hat swims in pools of money [16:41] In other news [16:41] zomg, if RHAT swims in money, i don't want to live in open source land. [16:41] RMS fills me with anger [16:41] jrwren: It is the way of things [16:41] SUN used to be an OSS company [16:42] when did they change ticker to RHT? [16:42] Then they started swimming in pools of money [16:42] SUN was NEVER an OSS company [16:42] Ironically though [16:42] jrwren: Bull [16:42] Most of Red hats $$$ come from commerical proprietary software [16:42] if you think SUN was EVER OSS, then you are delusional. [16:42] what Redhat $$$ comes from commercial proprietary software? [16:42] jrwren: SUN was OSS before any of us knew what SUN was. They were a UNIX distribution company that started making hardware [16:43] Huge, huge swaths [16:43] Please hold while I google [16:43] snap-l: you realize that SunOS and Solaris were closed source until well into 2000s ? [16:43] that is not OSS [16:43] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Microsystems#History [16:44] And once they came out of the post-bubble crash, they started opening things back up again [16:44] and JAVA was never open source until openjava. [16:44] I fully believe Sun would have become an OSS company had they not screwed up their finances. [16:44] so now its that they would have been... [16:44] not that they were. [16:44] jrwren: Right [16:44] http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-9931271-16.html [16:44] good. [16:44] That articles a bit old [16:44] agreed. [16:44] Sun was never an OSS company [16:44] But it's what I was referring to [16:45] Red hat makes a lot of $$$ from selling Lotus and etc. Linux-enabled [16:45] Lotus ? [16:45] that is IBM owned is it not? [16:45] tjagoda: RHAT doesn't have much to do with Lotus. [16:45] Did I say they wrote/owned Lotus? [16:45] you implied it. [16:46] I did not [16:46] Linux-enabled [16:46] your claim is false. sorry. [16:46] Oh FFS [16:46] http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-9931271-16.html [16:46] Go read [16:46] that article is rubbish in the first two paragraphs. [16:46] RHT has no clsoed source software. [16:46] They sell Lotus Domino from IBM on Red hat services as bundles [16:46] I see. [16:46] They do a lot of stuff like that [16:46] 12:42 tjagoda| Most of Red hats $$$ come from commerical proprietary software [16:46] where they bundle the proprietary onto the open [16:46] my bad. [16:46] tjagoda: And Oracle sells Oracle DB on RHAT-derived Linux [16:46] I assumed this was RHT's proprietary software. [16:47] but you mean other proprietary software. [16:47] Correct [16:47] "come from" means lots of things there. [16:47] lots of abiguity [16:47] God, apparently today is semantic bingo [16:47] semantics are important. [16:47] Yes, but two articles about OSS semantics [16:47] The jzb article and the Matt Asay article [16:48] yeah, no shit. [16:48] slow fucking new day. [16:48] The core of my point was trying to express that a non-insignificant portion of RHT revenue comes from selling bundled proprietary stuff on RHT platforms [16:48] news [16:48] taht is from 4 yrs ago. [16:48] tjagoda: definitely agree. [16:48] Ah, didn't see the date. [16:48] I'd guess that at least 25% if not 50% of RHT revenue comes from selling RHEL support for running oracle installs. [16:49] The only thing Red Hat itself has that is not open is their OpenShift platform [16:49] I'd argue that there's a lot less Domino sales nowadays [16:49] Microsoft has pretty much eaten that market with Exchange [16:49] Now it's all Exchange and Exchange-compatibles. [16:50] If you want a recent article talking about red hat and proprietary stuff go read the Ars Tech one that ran a couple weeks ago, I think it's a footnote in there [16:50] GM is still Notes :( [16:50] jrwren: They're the last of the big three to use notes [16:50] Chrysler recently switched [16:51] i wonder if RHT is anti GPL3 now that they have built openshift on OSS stuff [16:51] I'm sure they will eventual OSS OpenShift [16:51] They have a rather proven track record in all their proprietary acquisitions eventually getting OSS'ed [16:52] http://www.ihatelotusnotes.com/ [16:52] i'm not sure why I would use openshift over heroku [16:52] heroku seems to be market leader int aht space right now [16:52] jrwren: All it takes is a few months of effort to unseat a leader [16:52] especially in cloud foo [16:53] snap-l: ubuntu bug zero (or is it bug 1) suggests otherwise. [16:53] I chuckle at the irony of OpenShift being closed source, however [16:53] ClosedShift must not sell as well =P [16:53] jrwren: I should have clarified in the cloud space [16:53] since it is so new. [16:53] meh, all about who you trust, how the costs work out, etc [16:54] i disagree on cloud too. [16:54] heroku is a leader, but also most people that scale out of heroku pretty easily and end up needing/looking at other things [16:54] AWS ownz [16:54] rick_h: exactly. [16:54] Read an article on AWS cloud infrastructure [16:54] holy jesus [16:54] thats a lot of servers [16:54] although maybe that means snap-l is right and there is a space that for a new player [16:55] yea, but even AWS requires special things. End of hte day apps have different pain points and if you scale out large enough you need to tweak our setup [16:55] jrwren: s/maybe// ;) [16:55] there's no silver bullet [16:55] if you scale big enough it can even make sense to get off AWS and run your own datacente. [16:55] no silver bullet [16:55] jrwren: yea, but I do have to say the articles coming out of netflix and sticking with AWS is interesting [16:56] Almost 500,000 individual servers make up the EC2 cloud [16:56] and just the EC2 cloud [16:56] www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~cah/G51ISS/Documents/NoSilverBullet.html [16:56] That's terrifying [16:56] meh, I think you'd be surprised at how many servers there are out there. [16:56] "454,400 Blade Servers, in a total of 7,100 racks" [16:56] rick_h: agreed, but I think maybe netflix just employs engineers that are taking NIH too far.. [16:56] sometimes NIH is a GOOD attitude [16:57] jrwren: yea, it's just interesting to see/read [16:57] amazing how long you can work around/with a vendor to keep going [16:58] yup [16:58] Did you ever see the CPU Utilization story from AWS? [16:58] I found that interesting [16:58] so, jzb article, discuss [16:58] * greg-g chuckles because he did see it mentioned in the scroll back, but he didn't read it all :) [16:58] http://huanliu.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/host-server-cpu-utilization-in-amazon-ec2-cloud/ [16:59] You should scroll back [16:59] we've already had jrwren argue over it [16:59] we did? [16:59] comment* [16:59] i thought we agreed over it :p [16:59] Its a habit [16:59] so, is jzb right, wrong, or in between? [16:59] I'm used to saying argue and jrwren in the same sentance [17:00] i dunno if "that guy is an idiot" counts as.... nvm [17:00] hah [17:00] :) [17:02] He defends his position very bitterly in the comments [17:03] Estimates say google has around 1 million servers [17:04] so amazon EC2 is worth .5 googles [17:06] and that is just EC2 [17:06] that isn't counting S3 [17:06] Yeah, no S3 and etc [17:06] and all the other AWS offerings. [17:06] which are HUGE [17:32] Re my pain in getting U1 setup on Debian: Even Canonical's own numbers show they should fucking support Debian for Ubuntu One: http://blog.canonical.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/03/OSes-preference.png [17:32] good thing they have an iphone client (6th! place) [17:32] * greg-g grumble fucking grumble [17:34] u1 on win is a smoking pile of garbage [17:35] which makes total fucking sense in Canonical's point of view since Windows is the most widely used second operating system for Ubuntu users [17:36] So they develop in reverse order? [17:36] BRING ON THE BLACKBERRY CLIENT, BABY [17:37] sorry, I'm annoyed at this because Canonical is just U1 development wrong, period. No ifs ands or buts about it. Asheesh summarizes in a comment nicely: http://blog.grossmeier.net/2012/02/26/ubuntuone-debian/#comment-9398 [17:37] tjagoda: :) [17:38] s/is just U1/is just doing U1/ [17:39] Although [17:39] Jono has a good point [17:39] They aren't doing it by volume, they're doing it by "willingness to pay" [17:39] So its on the iphone because those suckers are used to shelling out tons of $$ for services [17:39] and so forth [17:39] Debian is obviously full of cheap bastards [17:39] =P [17:39] and Windows users? [17:40] So confused that they'll pay for anything [17:40] also, way to improve Ubuntu/Debian relations /me grumble [17:40] Debian being so freedom focused [17:40] I'm huffing and puffing over here, I think my coworkers think there is something wrong with my lungs/nose [17:40] They'd set the platform on fire before they shipped with u1 [17:41] wrong, they'd ship it in a heart beat, the code on the desktop is all FLOSS [17:41] Really? [17:41] I thought parts of u1 were closed [17:41] yeah, just the server is proprietary [17:41] ahh [17:41] so, the argument many make is "it's just like a web browser surfing cnn.com (or whatever)" [17:42] That argument works for people that are Iceweasel levels of crazy? [17:44] "Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate" [17:44] Ohshi- [17:44] PREPARE FOR A FIRST OF FIERY CONSERVATIVE JUSTICE, AMERICA! [17:45] <_stink_> hey, is there audio of the hearings available in full anywhere? [17:45] Health Care 2.0 will just involve sending the sick to Canda. [17:45] <_stink_> i confess i haven't looked yet [17:45] Canada* [17:45] Dunno [17:46] http://thehill.com/video/in-the-news/218455-audio-day-two-of-supreme-court-healthcare-argements [17:46] ? [17:46] I didn't hit play [17:46] it could just be a recording or newsbite [17:46] <_stink_> http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_audio_detail.aspx?argument=11-398-Tuesday [17:46] people were waiting in line for today's hearing since last friday [17:46] greg-g: +1 on the U1 disaster bits [17:47] <_stink_> http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_audio_detail.aspx?argument=11-398-Monday [17:47] <_stink_> fwiw [17:47] though if you follow the job apps there's windows positions and mac positions out there for U1 [17:47] rick_h: w00t. I got one Canonical employee to agree ;) [17:47] rick_h: oh! cool (kinda, I guess) :) [17:47] The one who works in launchpad [17:47] he can edit the blueprints [17:47] greg-g: yea, I feel bad I'm a non-user, but it's really a mess [17:47] clandestinely [17:47] to give you right priority [17:48] heh, if you think U1 dev follows a blueprint you're confused :P [17:48] lol [17:48] and [17:48] :( [17:48] I wanted to use U1 on Windows to sync between my Ubuntu laptop and Win7 desktop [17:48] we do have marketing/mgt type people as well as engineers [17:48] * greg-g nods [17:48] But the win client is a steaming pile of crap [17:48] tjagoda: I suggest you report a bug with that in the title [17:48] :) [17:48] lol [17:48] I mean [17:48] ffs [17:49] I'm sure it'd get a bunch of positive comments :) [17:49] it didn't even have error exceptions [17:49] there were no timeouts when it was failing to login [17:49] it just kept trying like some kind of mentally challenged lab mouse [17:49] haha, good visual [17:50] https://tbe.taleo.net/NA3/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CANONICAL&cws=1&rid=389 [17:51] and there are others for iOS mobile and such [17:51] I applied for my third Canonical position today [17:51] Technical Account Manager [17:51] My previous attempts include Launchpad Support and Operational Sysadmin [17:52] Required skills and experience [17:52] String communication and cooperation skills [17:52] lolz [17:52] omg [17:52] <_stink_> allow me to communicate how poorly i cooperate [17:53] In a strong manner [17:53] sorry [17:53] a string manner* [17:53] _stink_: as long as you use strings to do it, you're hired [17:53] <_stink_> augh, i have an enum from which i will use random entries :( [17:53] <_stink_> ah well. [17:54] hah, see, I was thinking like soup cans and string [17:55] <_stink_> i suppose i should have gone with something more like string theory [17:55] <_stink_> i'm so far removed :P [17:55] _stink_: :( [17:55] <_stink_> yeah. [17:58] Hey Rick_H [17:58] Do you understand the TAM location posting? [17:58] It says from home on the listing, but mentions houston in the detail [17:58] tjagoda: TAM? [17:59] Technical Account Mana. [17:59] tjagoda: linky [17:59] I didn't look at it so not sure [17:59] https://tbe.taleo.net/NA3/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CANONICAL&cws=1&rid=428 [18:00] tjagoda: not sure [18:01] I operated under the "when in doubt, apply" method === _Marcus is now known as _Marcus|NotHereS [19:03] whoa. both of my bugs reported during our bug jam have been confirmed [19:12] <_stink_> o/ [19:14] brousch: Now for the hard part: getting them fixed. [19:15] i think they're both trivial [19:15] Just received a rhythmbox one that was triaged, but then marked as invalid because upstream managed to fix it a year ago. [19:18] I <3 SPAM: http://paste.mitechie.com/show/2aOvB6n5wKeuJgMx3GJd/ [19:19] brousch: links? [19:19] http://paste.mitechie.com/show/vwwrHB1dqLFl68blvwLm/ [19:21] wow, presidents of Nigera, USA, and England are involved with your money transfer? important money [19:21] man I hate rrd...what a pita [19:22] Queen of England, no less [19:22] oh right, not president [19:22] Not just the Prime Minister [19:23] <_stink_> i'm going to put a plaque in my cubicle saying i am the President of Englad. [19:23] <_stink_> England [19:30] _stink_: Maybe you can get my money wired to me from nigeria [19:30] I mean, Pres. Obama should be able to be persuaded [19:32] <_stink_> i'll give him a call [19:32] tx [19:32] greg-g: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/945826 [19:32] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-workspace/+bug/945805 [19:34] http://www.amazon.com/Songs-Crystal-Cave-Steven-Seagal/dp/B0009SQ520 [19:52] brousch: wow, that first one is good [19:52] yeah, strange. must be no one ran the livecd and updated [19:52] yeah [19:55] want to waste some time? http://browserquest.mozilla.org/ [19:57]