/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/03/27/#ubuntustudio-devel.txt

ScottLwhat's up knome 00:05
* knome just spent a good few hours with the xubuntu strategy document00:05
ScottLis that bad?00:06
knomebut it's now tentatively reviewed and rewritten00:06
knomewell, it was just a lot of work ;)00:06
ScottLoh good00:06
knomei suppose it's going to be more work to go through that with the community though ;)00:06
ScottLi'm still not exactly sure what charlie disagreed with for him to leave00:06
knomenot that i changed *much*, but...00:06
* ScottL was just free associating and thought of that00:07
knomei think he believed that i was playing some games to get my way through00:07
ScottLthat doesn't require any discussion, i was just pointing that out00:07
knomei don't mind00:07
ScottLother than the "playing games" part i don't know what he objected to00:07
ScottL*shrug* doesn't matter really, not at this stage00:07
knomei suppose just that :P00:07
knomes/just/only/00:08
kubotuknome meant: "i suppose only that :P"00:08
knomeugh, what a bot00:08
knomequite distracting imo ;)00:08
ScottLi'm not sure who brought the bot here and set him loose00:09
ScottLi've tried to kick him but he (or she) comes back00:09
knomeif you want to get rid of it, ask #ubuntu-ops(-team)00:09
ScottLjussi had muted him (or her) i thought, but s/he speaks00:09
ScottLugh, it's okay i guess, just there were quite a few bots at one point, more than active members it seemed00:10
knomehaha00:10
ScottLthat was kinda depressing actually 00:10
* knome wishes that all the scott* -instances would add to the ubuntu studio development drive, but it seems that only one of them can work at a time00:11
ScottLhehe, true00:12
knomei should go to bed00:12
knomewe're meeting with astraljava in less than 8 hours00:13
ScottLi presume in person, and that is pretty cool, i wish there were people close that i could see that i interact wiht daily00:13
knomeyup, in person00:13
knomewell, it's not daily really. at least yet00:13
knomemight be weekly, if he got a job in helsinki :)00:13
knomeoh, right, i see what you were saying00:14
knome:P00:14
knomeyes, it's cool to see fellow contributors now and then :)00:14
knomeanyway, i'm off00:18
knomesee you later :)00:18
micahgscott-upstairs: xfce4-mixer?02:53
micahgscott-upstairs: do you want me to hold off on uploading the default-settings package?03:02
micahgScottL: ^^03:05
ScottLmicahg, do you feel that it is too late to file a FFe (if that is required) for making the same "fix" that xubuntu did for the xfce4-mixer?03:12
micahgScottL: we dropped it in the end in favor of pavucontrol03:12
micahgScottL: not sure you want to do that for beta 2 unless something is broke though03:13
ScottLmicahg, astraljava was explaining that the plugin was kept but apparently uses pavuacontrol?03:13
micahgseeded-in-ubuntu xfce4-mixer03:13
micahgxfce4-mixer (from xfce4-mixer) is seeded in:03:13
micahg  mythbuntu: daily-live03:13
micahg  ubuntustudio: dvd03:13
ScottLmicahg, in a perfect world i would like to "fix" the mixer issue (which several people say is pretty severe)03:14
ScottLmicahg, i am nervous about making such a change this late03:14
ScottLmicahg, however it has been explained that xubuntu has already did this so the process is more or less defined03:15
ScottLto fix it03:15
ScottLmicahg, i am on the fence for this issue and i wanted your opinion03:15
ScottLi suppose an SRU could be an option after release03:15
micahgI never had the issue that they described, this is also not the final image, just the second beta, if it's not broke now, but you'd like to be more in sync with xubuntu, you can always do it after beta 203:16
micahgyou basically want to solidify your images at this point for the beta, that means bug fixes03:16
micahgalso, I thought that US prefers jack over PA03:17
micahgin which case, going with pavucontrol doesn't seem to make sense03:17
ScottL"US prefers jack over PA"...hehe, which is where this all gets weird :P03:18
ScottLi'd say let's move forward right now for beta 2 with just fixing the menu bug03:18
ScottLi think that is most critical at this point from a usability standpoint, i would really like to get feedback from people on their feeling about the new structure03:19
ScottLthe mixer may be confusing but can be used03:19
ScottLas is03:19
ScottLi'd say we can address the mixer after beta 2 but we will need to do some manual testing for this ourselves03:20
ScottLmicahg, does that sound sane?03:20
micahgyeah03:20
ScottLmicahg, are you a star trek fan?  (i won't think less of you for either answer)03:20
micahguploading default-settings after a test build, can you coordinate with the people in -release after it appears?03:20
micahgScottL: indeed03:20
ScottLaye, i will03:20
ScottL"make it so"03:20
ScottL:P03:21
ScottLi suppose i didn't specify which star trek it was though, my bad03:21
ScottLi do my picard impression at work, too.  most people don't get it though (and i didn't say it was a good impression)03:21
ScottLbut if i cross one leg over the other, point with to fingers with a slightly downward chop, and say "make it so" i expect them to get it03:22
ScottLs/to fingers/two fingers03:22
ScottLmicahg, do you know Andrew Starr-Bochicchio?03:23
micahgpersonally no, I know his online persona :)03:23
ScottLhe sent me an email about my "path to be a Ubuntu Developer"03:23
ScottLi'm curious as to what prompted this03:23
ScottLcould be just because i'm project lead *shrug*03:24
micahgdeveloper advisory board most likely03:24
ScottLaye, he said in hat capacity03:24
ScottLmicahg, would coordinating with -release for default-settings in 7.5 hours be adequate?  it's close to bed time for moi03:28
micahgScottL: I'll take care of it03:29
ScottLare you sure?  i can stay up if necessary03:29
micahgnah, I'm still winding down03:30
jussiahh05:30
jussithat wont work05:30
jussikubotu: part05:32
kubotujussi, you don't have 'basics::move::part' permissions here05:32
jussimeh05:32
jussiI win.05:32
knome:P05:33
ttoinehi09:55
ttoineScottL, I think you are aware of that link : http://wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=system_configuration10:19
ttoinecould it be possible to integrate some of the recommandation of this wiki page in a configuration script of ubuntu studio ? (lowlatency kernel, of jackd, or something like that)10:19
scott-upstairsttoine, it is possible to incorporate some of these items11:32
scott-upstairsthere are some considerations11:32
scott-upstairswe already done some of them11:32
scott-upstairswe would also need to figure out which are the best (and safe) to use11:32
scott-upstairswe would need to get the package into the official repository and not in a PPA11:32
scott-upstairsincidentally, this is similar to my idea of a button in the systray to enter 'recording mode'11:33
ttoinescott-upstairs, very good idea, this recording mode !12:11
ailomicahg: I believe the mixer problem is a bug. I'd rather there was no mixer at all in the volume control applet, than the wrong one. I think all of the US crew can agree that it would ber be13:07
ailo..better to change it13:07
ailoIf you could help us out, that would be magnificient13:07
ailoI keep pushing this, since I think it's very important13:07
ailoI wish this problem would have been brought up earliet, but since it hasn't, better late than never13:08
ttoinescott-upstairs, ScottL I am trying the daily build. The lightness of the system is impressive. It allow far better low latency than a standard Ubuntu with Unity ! The only thing that is missing imho is gparted in order to resize partitions, etc... when needed. And the bottom panel is not very useful as it doen't work as a dock13:27
ttoinescott-work, I am trying the daily build. The lightness of the system is impressive. It allow far better low latency than a standard Ubuntu with Unity ! The only thing that is missing imho is gparted in order to resize partitions, etc... when needed. And the bottom panel is not very useful as it doen't work as a dock14:17
scott-workttoine: we can certainly add gparted (and i'm surprised that it seems to have been forgotten)14:18
ttoineit is not on the live dvd14:18
scott-workttoine: however i am not sure i understand your last comment about the bottom panel14:19
ttoinethe bottom panel is only a panel, not a dock14:19
ttoinescott-work, 2 other things : the volume control applet seems quite useless, and it is not possible to choose the keyboard layout before being in fxce14:24
ttoinexfce14:25
ttoineand perhaps we should choose between AandR and Display14:39
scott-workttoine: how would you consider a dock to perform that a panel would not?14:56
scott-workttoine: i.e. i can add launchers to the panel fairly easily as a user, but does a dock provide other functionality?14:56
scott-workttoine: yes, the volume applet is a known issue.  ailo , len, and astraljava have commented on it and suggested the same fix the xubuntu has performed14:57
scott-workttoine: however, the volume applet will probably need to be addressed after the beta 2 image is release if i understood micah correctly14:57
scott-workttoine: i am very ignorant about choosing keyboard layout.  isn't this a choice when installing?  or is this manifesting in the live FS?14:58
scott-workttoine: good point about ArandR and Display.  testing was done and we felt that Arandr providing the best multi-head (dual monitor) support, we could exlcude display from the menu unless if provides some functionality for all monitor setups that Arandr does not14:59
ttoinescott-work, a dock provide the functionality to list active applications, etc... perhaps we should consider trying docky ? it used to be quite popular in ubuntu before unity15:00
scott-workttoine: the top panel should have the 'window list' plugin 15:01
scott-workdoes that not show the active applications?  i.e. firefox, terminal, qjackctl, ardour, mudita24, etc15:01
ttoinescott-work, about keyboard layout, when you use a live dvd of ubuntu, you can at the very startup hit any key and choose your keyboard layout. then, you are prompted to choose between try, install, etc... Ubuntu Studio live dvd miss that15:02
ttoinescott-work, yes, the top panel list active applications. But a modern dock like docky can do both : launch and list, and more depending on addons. even without compiz15:04
ttoineI speak about dock not to make your mind change about it, but because they are popular. and in Unity, the left panel is a kind of dock, currently15:05
scott-workttoine: at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialOneiric is a section about UI and a dock15:11
scott-workthis was an idea suggested at one time and is very attractive not only visually but also for some functionalities15:12
scott-workand is very similar to what unity is providing in some regards15:12
ttoineyes15:13
ttoinescott-work, is it possible to use awn on xfce  ?15:13
scott-workttoine: i believe it is possible, but the original attempt demonstrated that awm brings in many, many gtk libraries that were unrequired otherwise15:17
ttoineyes, I was thinking about that15:17
scott-workother dock did not bring in some many unwanted dependencies, however they did not provide the aesthetic qualities nor functionalities of awn15:17
ttoineand developping a dedicated panel for ubuntu studio would require too many work15:18
scott-workttoine: len has done some interesting experiments with developing a system to support work flows that is very similar to a dock15:18
scott-worki would like to explore this in later cycles as well15:18
ttoinein xfce ?15:18
ttoineyes, it is not the time now15:18
scott-workyes, i will dig up the email later15:19
ttoineok15:19
scott-workbut i want to explore other areas as well, maybe scripting, to help people start projects (not just audio) that may be based on work flows15:19
scott-workhopefully we can include a sane set of defaults and an easy mechanism to edit them15:19
ttoinescott-work, I will install ubuntu studio daily on my laptop as soon as i downloaded it, and use it for day to day work15:26
ttoineSo I will see if there are things that we may miss with just trying the live dvd or virtualizing it15:26
scott-workttoine: this is still a beta 2 image and we know there are a few known issues (although i don't believe them to be hyper critical)15:27
ttoinethat's why I will do that ;-)15:27
scott-workttoine: also, the menu is most likely not the ubuntu studio menu (which has better organized structure for content creation)15:27
ttoinescott-work, oh, yes, speaking about multimedia, imho we are missing to suggest OpenShot as the default video editor. I spoke with specialists of video edition last week and they all say that it is the best tool at the moment15:29
scott-workttoine: i think it depends on your intended final product shoudl be15:31
scott-worksome would argue and say the kdenlive is better15:31
scott-workhowever, i think for making a movie (i.e. feature release with post production and compositing) i would suggest blender15:31
scott-worki also do think that openshot has made create strides in a very short amount of time15:32
scott-workperhaps we could develop an upstream relationship with the developer and help give it some direction we may like15:33
ttoinescott-work, it supports frior effects, don't need kde libs... it is far better than kdenlive in lightness. and is not so hard to understand than Blender or Cinellera15:33
scott-workttoine: i defintely agree with the kde libs ;)15:33
ttoine;-)15:34
scott-worki don't think video editing is hard in blender...but i especially think it will be very easy with the documentation/tutorial i have in mind15:34
ttoineat the university where I sometimes give courses, they are currently using openshot on a basic ubuntu in order to give courses about basic video production to communication graduates15:34
scott-workcurrently, the thought is to ship openshot as a "home movie creater" and blender as a "pro-track film creater"15:35
scott-workthis isn't final, but just the working theory15:35
scott-workas the documentation is created i think these may be refined more15:35
ttoinebut blender is more aimed at 3D than movie ???15:38
ttoinescott-work, of course, I was not thinking about OpenShot as a pro-track film creator15:39
scott-workttoine: blender is a very, very stable and fully featured film editor15:42
scott-workttoine: plus the compositing nodes allows you to do alhpa over and translations and other modifications quite easily and robustly15:42
scott-worki'm very, very surprised others have not picked up on it15:43
scott-workttoine: this is an example video i did (really a proof-of-concept piece) using blender:  http://vimeo.com/1403495815:44
scott-workit took four hours to complete, including recording the video and setting up the green screen15:44
scott-workmusic is completely improved (which means it has obvious mistakes)15:44
ttoineok. As for a lot of people, Blender is for me dedicated to 3D scenes, animation and rendering. I was knowing that you can manage video, sounds, etc... but not this way. great to know this15:48
ttoinescott-work, what are you thinking about cinelerra ?15:49
scott-workttoine: i have never used cinelerra unfortunately15:50
scott-worki read too many comments about instability and difficult UI which biased me away from it15:50
ttoinethe guys I have met think of it this the equivalent of premiere and finalcut for Linux15:50
scott-worki really should consider testing it though15:50
scott-workthere has been a fork as well which is making it more accessible to the general public i believe15:51
ttoineand they don't say at all that is unstable and hard to use. It is not very different than Finalcut, actually15:51
ttoinetry the community version. it is available in a ppa15:51
scott-workmeeting time, i'll be back in just short of an hour15:51
scott-workttoine: i will do that soon15:51
ttoinesee https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation of course ;-)15:52
ttoineI have quite finished this wiki page, and it is very complete now. perhaps too much...15:52
ttoinescott-work, see you later, I will install ubuntu studio15:53
scott-workgreat email about the work we're doing for 12.04:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2012-March/008196.html16:17
ttoinehop. Ubuntu Studio installed on my regular laptop to test a day to day use17:08
astraljavattoine: And how is it looking?17:09
ttoineastraljava, quite great ;-)17:09
astraljavaSchweet. :)17:09
ttoineI was very disapointed with the amd64 live dvd because the starting prompt is not the same than the i386. the i386 is like the standard ubuntu, you can choose keyboard layout, etc...17:09
ttoineastraljava, the live dvd miss gparted, wich is very usefull if one need to resize a partition before installin17:10
ttoineg17:10
astraljavattoine: Well, yeah there's that. I'll have to double-check with Scott before I'll add it to the seeds.17:11
ttoineI spoke about gparted with him, he was surprised it was not included17:13
ttoineastraljava, do you know if there are differences between the amd64 and the i386 live dvd ??17:13
ttoineastraljava, I would be glad to translate in french the install slideshow. can you just tell me where I can do that ?17:14
ttoineastraljava, I just see that the default installation is missing ink-generator (addon to Inkscape) and create-ressources (shared ressources between inkscape, gimp and blender)17:15
ttoineand gcdmaster is not in the apps. But who creates cd master nowadays ?17:16
astraljavattoine: I started the work on porting gcdmaster to GTK3, but got swamped with other stuff, so only have an initial repository for now. I hope to be able to return to it once the release hassle is gone.17:17
ttoineit is not compulsory to have it, but some may find it useful17:17
astraljavattoine: There might be differences between i386 and amd64, but that certainly isn't desirable. I _know_ there were differences in oneiric, for Xubuntu.17:17
astraljavattoine: Let me check the proper path for translations. Hold on for a mo.17:17
ttoineastraljava, is there a place where I can write some feedback ?17:18
ttoinesorry, I am asking a lot at the same time17:18
astraljavattoine: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/precise/view/head:/po/ubuntustudio/fr.po17:20
ttoinethanks17:20
astraljavattoine: But it's probably best to branch the whole source tree. Use `bzr branch lp:ubuntu/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu` for that.17:21
astraljavaI'm going to be flying back home now, I'll be back online in about 3-4 hours.17:22
astraljavaSee ya later. Hopefully.17:22
ttoineok17:22
scott-worki just want the channel to know, specifically TheMuso, that a new kernel is being released18:23
scott-workor updated18:23
scott-workif you notice any changes in performance, you might mention it in channel so we can follow up with it18:24
lenscott-work ttoine  about display and arandr. It is a pain, but both are needed. It would be nice to bug the xfce guys about adding more dual (or more head functionality.19:33
lenBasically, display has the ability to save a configuration (including monitor position) so that on reboot arandr doen't have to be used every time to set dual heads up.19:34
scott-worklen: is using Display to save the configuration state included in the documentation you and holstein did?19:35
lendisplay creates a file in ~/.config/somewhere/  that gets read at login.19:36
lenI did include that in my docs yes.19:36
* holstein high-fives len!19:36
lenFor next cycle it may be worthwhile either fixing display (sending the fix upsteam) or making our own display setter that saves to the right place.19:41
ttoinescott-work, ok, I will notice you for the kernel19:43
ttoinescott-work, I did a translation for fr-fr language of the slideshow, but I can't upload it to bzr19:43
ttoineI am not part of the group for what I understand19:44
ttoinecan someone do it for me ?19:44
lenttoine my workflow app playing around is at http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/workflow.html19:46
ttoinescott-work, and I would like to report a bug in the menu, but I don't where I should do that19:47
lenttoine: a longer thing on dual displays is at http://www.ovenwerks.net/UStudiodocs/dualmonitor.html19:47
lenttoine: the menu is now a part of ubuntustudio-default-settings19:49
lenThat would be the package to bug against.19:50
ttoineok, I will do that. thanks, len19:50
ttoinelen, I like your workflow switch application19:54
ttoineit doesn't need to be very complicated. If it is possible that background color get the theme color, it would be great19:55
ttoinelen, I reported the bug of ubuntustudio-default-settings20:01
ttoineastraljava, tell me when you see me again to send you the translated fr_fr.po for the slideshow.20:01
ttoinebye, all20:02
astraljavattoine: I'm home again, so just ship it whenever.20:25
len-liveNew menu now works. (todays ISO)20:41
astraljavalen-live: Great news!20:47
len-liveastraljava, yup it is nicer to use. I am noticing a few apps that I think should be excluded from the media menu... mudita24 and mixer. Wish I had spotted that before the filename was fixed it could have been done at the same time.20:53
len-liveI think for the same reason we want the mixer icon to start the PA mixer, The PA mixer should be the only mixer in the media menu.20:54
len-liveLP has been timing out on me so I can't make a bug... ttoine did a menu bug too, but I don't know what the bug is (bug number please) so In don't want to duplicate it.20:56
scott-worklen-live: bug #96653920:57
ubottuLaunchpad bug 966539 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Mudita24 should not be in the "Media playback" submenu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/96653920:57
astraljavascott-work: So, am I to assume I'll make the mixer switch tomorrow? I'm pretty friggin' tired now.20:57
len-liveOk, that is one... the plain mixer shouldn't either...20:57
scott-workastraljava:  yeah, today is not going to happen, in fact micah was strongly suggesting that we make the fix after beta 2 is released20:58
astraljavascott-work: I can make the change tomorrow, but we'll get it uploaded after the release.20:58
scott-worklen-live: can you add to that bug report then please? maybe even change the title to be less specific to mudita24?  maybe "mixers" or such20:58
scott-workastraljava: that sounds good, thanks for you work on this :)20:59
len-livescott-work, ok, I don't know what I can change... but I will do my best.20:59
astraljavaNo worries. :) I'm gonna hit the hay now. See ya tomorrow!20:59
len-livescott-work  bug 966539 updated to include the xfce mixer. The PA mixer is the default for desktop media players adding more is confusing. Hardware controllers belong in the mixer section21:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 966539 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Mudita24 and xfcemixer should not be in the "Media playback" submenu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/96653921:06
len-livei'll start an install now as the live version looks good.21:10
len-liveThe slideshow scrollbars vanish as soon as I open the menu to start the screen shooter...21:18
len-liveThe slideshow is still just a bit big... for a netbook screen.21:19
len-liveIs there a setting for how fast the slides change in the slide show? A slower slide change effect might be better.21:22
scott-workgoing homes21:31
astraljavascott-upstairs: Isn't it normally "going places" or something? I've never seen that phrase before. :)21:40
astraljavaYea yea, I was supposed to go to sleep, but Xubuntu needs some love. *ahem*21:40
micahgastraljava: please hold off on committing to -default settings until I fix the conf file issue21:41
micahghmm, I shouldn't have approved/uploaded that -default settings thing :(21:47
astraljavamicahg: Yep, I won't push anything until you give me a green light.21:48
micahgcan one upgrade from the US DVD?21:51
astraljavamicahg: Apparently not, at least Luke seemed to say that you can't do that from a live-dvd, only alternate discs act as a repository.21:52
micahgok, good, we won't need to respin for this fix21:52
astraljavamicahg: Right, thanks!21:52
* micahg needs to introduce ScottL to the bzr mv command22:16
astraljavaHeheh. :) Alright, now I'm gone to sleep for realsies. See ya tomorrow!22:18
micahgok, will wait for ScottL to appear to confirm something before uploading this fix22:26
ScottLmicahg, i'm here23:14
* ScottL is aware that there are many, many things he isn't aware of across a vast number of subjects23:14
micahgScottL: the new menu file is an exact copy of the other?23:14
ScottLmicahg, i simply renamed the file 23:15
ScottLit is an exact copy otherwise23:16
micahgScottL: right, ok, so in the future, please use bzr mv for this23:16
micahgI should've caught both of these, ok, uploading the fix for the conf file23:16
ScottLmicahg, ack'd23:17
ScottLmicahg, can you explain the consequences of my actions?23:18
micahgScottL: bzr rm and bzr add lose the bzr history for the file (well, it's there under the old file, but it would've been migrated had you used bzr mv23:19
micahgastraljava: you're clear to touch -default-settings23:25
micahgScottL: conf file migration uploaded23:25
micahgScottL: all in all, it's a fairly innocuous goof that will probably go unnoticed23:29
ScottLmicahg, thank you, i shall not make the same mistake again23:44

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