/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/03/31/#ubuntu-manual.txt

=== godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Oneiric edition released! | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
hannieHey, the troika is here! where is the rest? Hi godbyk and c7p20:02
c7plol20:02
godbykHello, hannie.20:02
c7phello20:02
hannieWe'll have to wait for the others to join, in the meantime I do some further reading20:03
c7pagenda if anyone wants to read: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-March2012Meeting20:04
tomswartz07hi all20:06
hanniehello, tomswartz0720:06
hanniewe are waiting for more people to join us20:07
tomswartz07great. sorry im late!20:07
c7phello20:07
godbykShall we get started then?20:08
hannieI think we should, although there were many more names on the doodle list20:09
godbykOkay.20:09
godbykEven though mootbot is absent/dead, we'll keep up appearances.20:09
godbyk#startmeeting20:09
tomswartz07we're going to be logged, correct? may as well just email it to those who missed20:09
godbykThe meeting agenda is available at <http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-March2012Meeting>.20:09
hanniewill this be logged anyway?20:09
godbykThe meeting should still be logged, yes.20:10
godbykIf not, I'm logging it.20:10
hannieok20:10
c7pgood20:10
tomswartz07great. ok. lets get into it then :)20:10
godbyk[TOPIC] Recent Oneiric release20:10
c7pwho starts this ?20:10
godbykFirst off, as you've probably noticed, we just released Getting Started with Ubuntu 11.10 this week.20:10
godbykCongratulations and many thanks to everyone who helped out with that manual!20:11
hannieYes, we should be proud of the result.20:11
c7pcongrats :) people20:11
tomswartz07its very nice! congrats20:12
godbykHaving said that, it took us quite a while to get the Oneiric manual released.  Which leads us to our next agenda item:20:12
godbyk[TOPIC] Problems we faced during Oneiric20:12
godbykc7p: Would you like to take this topic?20:12
c7pok i wrote this item so i start :)20:12
c7pwell this topic is opened in order to share our experience and what held the release of the back20:13
tomswartz07i think that the major holdup was the screenshot collection.20:14
tomswartz07is that fair to say?20:14
c7pyeah that's right20:14
hannieI think reviewing also took too long20:14
c7pscreenshots and the proofreading for me took the most time20:14
c7p+1 hannie20:14
c7pwhat i should mention is that in contrast with the previous releases authors didn't step off20:15
tomswartz07yes, i thought the chapter authors did a very good job of getting things done in a timely manner.20:16
hannieOne of the solutions could be: 2 persons should keep track of "their chapter" (author(s) and editor(s))20:16
c7pyeah that sounds great20:17
hannieand report to the editor-in-chief20:17
hannieon a regular basis20:17
c7pyes20:17
hannieincluding the screenshots in that chapter20:17
tomswartz07hannie: now, correct me if Im incorrect; wasnt the screenshot issue caused by the varying methods that people were taking screenshots?20:18
c7pwe have to set a new editor-in-chief since Rick "resigned"20:18
hannietomswartz07, yes, but if people had checked "their" chapter it would not have been so much work for others20:19
tomswartz07hannie: I see.20:19
hanniec7p: how will we get a new editor-in-chief?20:20
c7pgodbyk: was there any other issue with screens apart from the different resolutions ?20:20
c7phannie: :D i don't know20:20
godbykc7p: I think the primary problem with the screenshots was that some were taken at the wrong resolution.  Another issue is that some screenshots hadn't been taken at all.20:21
tomswartz07how many screenshots were missing completely?20:21
godbyktomswartz07: Not too many. I think there were perhaps 2–3 screenshots that were missing completely.20:21
c7phannie: regarding EiC we have to add the opening on the website if there isn't any member of the project that wants to take the role20:22
godbykA missing screenshot is one where someone has written \screenshot{...} in the .tex file, but hasn't captured the screenshot and uploaded it to the repository.20:22
hannieI am in favour of giving good instructions about screenhots on our website20:22
hannieMake author/editor responsible for the screenshots, but give them good instructions20:23
tomswartz07hannie: i agree. perhaps if we are particular in spelling out the duties of each role it will make things easier.20:23
hanniegodbyk, is it possible to update the screenshot instructions on the website?20:23
godbykhannie: I'll look into that. I can add it to the style guide, as well.20:24
hanniegodbyk, that would be great.20:24
c7ptomswartz07: +120:24
c7pare there any authors here ?20:25
tomswartz07i am20:25
c7pwhat are the problems you faced ?20:26
c7pas an author always20:27
tomswartz07as an author? not too much, actually.20:27
c7pah ok20:27
tomswartz07updating the information and sifting through what has changed since the last version was the most difficult.20:27
c7pi am asking in order to write down what are the problems in the writing process20:28
tomswartz07in my section, in particular, there wasn't that much that had changed. perhaps the other sections (where more development took place) had a different experience20:28
hanniec7p, do we have to send an email to all the authors and ask, or via the mailing list?20:28
c7pyes maybe20:28
c7pi haven't sent mails to authors20:29
hannieDo you want me do do this?20:29
c7pi think they are all subscribed to the list20:29
godbykHey, ajmontag. You can read the minutes of what we've discussed (and the agenda) here: <http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-March2012Meeting>20:29
hanniehi ajmontag20:29
tomswartz07hey ajmontag20:29
c7phannie: that would be great, since i have many things on my mind lately20:30
ajmontagHello, i'm a bit preoccupied atm, but i'll try to read along!20:30
tomswartz07i have a mild suggestion for the next version of the manual20:30
hanniec7p, I will contact them about this via the list20:30
c7pok thx20:30
hannieThe other action that should be taken is: find an editor-in-chief. Shall I put that on the list as well?20:31
hannietomswartz07, what's the suggestion?20:32
tomswartz07going along the lines of what we have just discussed, perhaps it would be best to focus (initally) on getting screenshots and compile a list of the differences between the current edition and precise20:33
godbykI agree with tomswartz07. I think that establishing the list of differences will make it a lot easier for authors to get started.20:34
godbykI don't know if one person can find all the differences, though.20:34
tomswartz07naturally, the ubuntu changelogs are easy to get, but if we could use those to guide our edits it will make things so much easier20:34
godbykWe may need a group of people to do this. Or perhaps we should have the authors themselves do it.20:34
hannietomswartz07, godbyk I do not quite get this:20:35
hannieyou mean use screenshots to point out the differences between oneiric and precise?20:35
tomswartz07hannie: no. this is purely for the authors and editors sake.20:36
godbykhannie: No, not with screenshots.  We just need to figure out what changes we need to make for the new version.20:36
tomswartz07it seems to me that when we dig in for the next edition, we are starting from scratch each time.20:36
hannieyou mean make a plan/framework of the differences?20:36
tomswartz07hannie: exactly20:37
godbykhannie: yes.20:37
hannieah, ok20:37
tomswartz07so far, i know that OMG!Ubuntu! and Cannonical themselves provide very good update info.20:37
hannieFirst of all, I think we will have to find out if the current authors are willing to continue with "their" chapter20:37
hannieAnd then they can find out what the differences are20:38
c7pi think most of the authors are willing to maintain their chapter20:38
godbykhow about the chapter editors?20:38
tomswartz07hannie: agreed. a small addendum, however; if a master list is compiled, then (potentially) a small number of authors can work on a few chapters20:39
godbyktomswartz07: true. as long as there aren't *too* many changes.20:39
tomswartz07just food for thought, however.20:39
godbykThe switch to Unity was a huge change for us.20:39
tomswartz07godbyk: i agree.20:39
c7pwe have no chapter editors as far as i remember !20:39
hannieeither a group of people gather a list of all the differences, or20:39
c7por there are 220:40
hanniethe authors/editors do this for their chapter20:40
c7pthat's why the proofreading process didn't went so well20:40
hanniec7p, yes we have20:40
c7phow many ?20:40
ajmontagAfter  the first of May I will be able to do editing if you'd like.20:41
hanniehttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydFl2cTJRNzJPZU56WEI3VzdKNzJtR0E&hl=en_US#gid=320:41
tomswartz07hannie: isnt that just what we do now? authors make changes and then those are listed via the commit logs?20:41
c7pactually how many sections are they assigned to20:41
c7pthis is the list of the people that wanted to contribute as editors20:41
hannieI think every chapter should have a reviewer/editor assigned to it20:42
c7pthis doesn't mean that they all worked as editors20:42
c7psure, the problem is that almost no one wants to work as editor20:42
tomswartz07well, im very willing to commit to more sections if need be20:42
c7p*works20:42
c7pgood to know20:42
hannieI am also available for more than one chapter20:43
* benonsoftware is free is he is needed20:43
hannieso, we already have three ;)20:43
hanniemake that four20:43
c7pthe crucial part as it seemed with the 11.10 is the proofreading period :D, so if you and other contributors solve this20:44
tomswartz07fair enough.20:44
c7p12.04 will go smooth20:44
hannieI will ask for editors via the list too20:44
c7pif we don't face any other new problems of course20:44
c7pthere is no need to do it know20:45
tomswartz07how many are willing to start in now? perhaps if we use the pre-release interface freezes, we could get that much of a jump before the actual release20:45
hanniewhy not? the earlier the better20:45
godbykAs far as sorting out the changes between 11.10 and 12.04, are we leaving that up to the authors?20:45
c7pcontributors have to know that there is work for them to do atm20:45
c7pwe can call for authors now20:46
hanniegodbyk, that is what I would prefer, yes20:46
tomswartz07c7p: +120:46
c7pbut the experience from 11.10 shows that the editors lose their interest if they don't have job to do20:46
hanniec7p, I can do that in the same email in which I address the current authors20:47
c7pok i don't have problem with this20:47
godbykhannie: Good idea. That way we can see which authors can't help us this cycle so we can find new authors to fill in those spots.20:47
hanniec7p, as an editor I experienced a very good cooperation with "my" authors20:47
c7pgood to know :)20:48
tomswartz07here's a very hopeful thought: if we could get the 12.04 edition released in a timely fashion, do you think we could contact Cannonical to get it featured on their site?20:48
tomswartz07I could talk to Ben Humphrey and Joey Sneddon to see if we could get it featured on OMG!Ubuntu!20:48
c7ptomswartz07: i'm not sure about this :/20:49
hannietomswartz07, I put an item on the agenda: Promoting the manual. Is that what you mean?20:49
tomswartz07hannie: surely20:49
c7pi mean about the canonical20:49
tomswartz07c7p: what are your reservations?20:49
c7pi think they want to see something very neat to put it on their website20:50
c7pyou know with great design etc, but that's just thoughts, we don't have anything to lose if we send them a mail20:51
hannieWell, oneiric is quite neat, don't you think?20:51
c7pi mean in respect of design20:52
tomswartz07hannie: i agree. its better than saying 'oh, just go to this website for help'. a co-opted manual may help those just starting.20:52
tomswartz07at any rate, heres an idea:20:52
hannieok, it is still too early to promote Precise. But we should do it when the time is there20:53
c7p+120:53
c7pwe have other issues to look now20:53
tomswartz07if we could get a signal boost from various open source sites, we could get volunteers to help improve the design for 12.0420:53
c7pi agree20:53
godbyktomswartz07: I do have a lot of thoughts on the website end of things, but we'll have to save those for another meeting, I'm afraid.20:54
tomswartz07godbyk: fair enough.20:54
c7ptomswartz07: first we need to track down the things we want from them to do, and be specific20:54
godbykShall we move on down the agenda?20:55
tomswartz07c7p: im willing to help with this, if you wish. moving on.20:55
c7pyeah20:55
godbyk[TOPIC] Division of tasks: 1 or more persons responsible for: screenshots, final editing, planning/scheduling, roadmap, publishing etc.20:55
godbykI think we've covered some of this already.20:55
godbykIt looks like we want the authors to be responsible for their own screenshots and for determining what needs to be updated within their chapter, correct?20:56
hannieyes20:56
tomswartz07I think so.20:56
c7pyes20:56
godbykI think that the editing should be up to each chapter editor (though we may need to provide some more clear guidelines on what this entails).20:57
hanniefinal editing = task editor-in-chief (will be quite a job!)20:57
godbykThat leaves the editor-in-chief to worry about the bigger-picture stuff like the overall schedule and roadmap for the release cycle and to sign off on the final edition to be published.20:57
c7pmaybe that's a bit deterring for a new EiC that isn't member of the project already :/20:57
hanniealthough it depends on the author/editor teams. If they do their best there won't be much to do for the editor-in-chief20:57
godbykThe scheduling of work within a chapter can be handled by the chapter editor and the chapter authors.20:58
hannieYes, first we have many little islands. Later we make it one big country :)20:58
godbykI think what's happened in the past few releases is that hannie, c7p, and I fix little bugs and make minor edits throughout the manual.20:59
godbykThen when we're tired of doing that, we release the PDF.20:59
godbyk:)20:59
tomswartz07not to downplay the role of the EiC, but it seems that the main role is to just give the whole manual a read-through and give it a proofread?20:59
hannieright. Therefore I insist on giving authors/editors more responsibility20:59
godbyktomswartz07: I'd say that the primary role of the EiC it to keep everyone on task and on schedule.21:00
tomswartz07godbyk: i see.21:00
godbykThe EiC doesn't do a lot of copy-editing, per se.21:00
godbyk(Or at least, the EiC shouldn't be responsible for editing the entire manual himself/herself.)21:00
c7pgodbyk: you mean an author/editor coordinator in other words ?21:01
hanniegodbyk, what was the reason Rick stopped? Was it too much work for him?21:01
godbykc7p: Yes. As well as the driver of the project during that cycle.21:01
godbykhannie: I think his day job started taking up more of his time.21:01
ajmontagSo who ensures consistant voice and style among chapters? EiC?21:01
tomswartz07perhaps we could give the EiC a task to help promote the manual?21:01
godbykajmontag: Ostensibly, yes. In the past, I don't think that's really happened, though.21:01
c7pi agree with Kevin21:02
hannieWe have to describe the job for the EiC before we try to find one21:03
tomswartz07hannie: +121:03
c7pyap21:03
tomswartz07it seems that in our rush to get the manual done, many of the jobs have become muddled.21:04
godbyktomswartz07: I agree.21:04
c7p+121:04
godbykI think that we should more clearly define the responsibilities and duties of each role (author, editor, EiC).21:04
tomswartz07godbyk: +521:04
godbykThat way everyone knows what he/she needs to do.21:04
c7pgodbyk: that's a whole new meeting21:05
godbykc7p: Agreed.21:05
c7pbut we need more people on the meeting too21:05
hannieI suggest we describe these roles via the list21:05
c7pespecially those who are affected21:05
godbykPerhaps it's something we can do on the mailing list.  I can write up a draft and post it to the list for feedback if you like.21:05
c7phannie: that's a solution too21:06
tomswartz07godbyk: Google Doc? shared edits?21:06
godbyktomswartz07: It might be better to have more of a discussion format to start with.21:06
tomswartz07i see. good idea.21:06
hanniegodbyk, good idea: make a draft and put it on the list for feedback21:06
godbyktomswartz07: ..Since we'll want to collect opinions of what people think their roles currently entail.21:06
godbykhannie: Okay, I'll do that.21:06
c7pbtw a collaboration platform would be very helpful21:07
godbykc7p: Can you be more specific as to what you mean?21:07
c7pyes21:07
ajmontagWell I've gotta run, will catch up with the agenda later on. Bye.21:08
tomswartz07see ya ajmontag21:08
godbykajmontag: Okay. Thanks for coming, ajmontag.21:08
hanniebye ajmontag21:08
c7pwe in greek ubuntu community have use atrium http://openatrium.com/21:08
c7pthis helps us to communicate set tasks21:08
c7pupdate the status of the task,21:09
benonsoftwarec7p: Is that the one based on Drupal?21:09
c7pdivide team members in task droups etc21:09
c7pbenonsoftware: im not sure but i can ask our admin21:09
hannieI will add atrium to my favourites and study it later21:09
benonsoftwareAs I think we are using that also for one project I'm in21:10
benonsoftwareYeah, we are using that also21:10
c7pthat's a tool that helps us to see what are the tasks that need to be done21:10
benonsoftwareYeah21:10
c7pi usually find myself forgetting what i wanted to do21:10
hanniec7p, I suggest we put this on the next meeting's agenda21:11
c7pi agree21:11
godbykOkay.21:11
godbyk[TOPIC] Format of the new version21:11
hanniegodbyk, I did not have time to study booktype, although I started with converting Prologue21:12
hannieYou did the same I noticed21:12
godbykhannie: Yeah, I converted the entire Prologue using Booktype.21:12
hannieSo did I :)21:12
godbykBooktype appears to be geared primarily toward generated ePUB-format e-books.21:12
hannieI suppose it is too late now to discuss booktype.21:13
godbykSo their editor is limited to the types of things you can do with ePUB.21:13
c7pi think we can use booktype in this series instead of the ubuntuone method21:13
godbykI don't think Booktype will work for us as it stands now, but it may be something we can modify or use as an example for creating a new system that works for our needs.21:13
hannieSo, we stick to LaTeX for the moment?21:14
c7pif we see that everything goes well with booktype and that suits 100% to the project we can publish the manual this way, if not we just convert the chapters to latex as we did for 11.1021:14
godbykI am going to work on writing a script that can convert our manual to ePUB format when I get some time.  We'll see how it goes.21:14
godbykI think we should stick to LaTeX for now.21:15
tomswartz07what are the pros of going to booktype?21:15
hannieThis needs further discussion in the next meeting21:15
tomswartz07im assuming that this is in replacement of LaTeX?21:15
godbyktomswartz07: The pros of using Booktype are that it has a web-based editor.21:15
c7pi tend to latex too kevin21:15
godbyktomswartz07: Everyone edits their text via the website.21:15
godbyktomswartz07: It's has a sort-of WYSIWYG editor, but it's limited in functionality to what the ePUB format can do.21:16
godbykFor instance, ePUB doesn't have margin notes.21:16
c7pauthors can comment on chapters, and communicate with each other21:16
tomswartz07godbyk: I see. Im unfamiliar with it.21:16
hanniegodbyk, what I missed is the possibility of marginnotes21:16
godbykePUB doesn't have footnotes, either, so you have to use end notes with links between the main text and the end note (and vice versa).21:16
c7pi think we have to share it with the list21:16
hannieyes, it does have footnotes21:16
hanniebut nommarginnotes21:16
tomswartz07is there a way to take LaTeX to ePub?21:16
godbykhannie: They're not real footnotes, though. They're end notes.21:17
hannieah, ok.21:17
godbyktomswartz07: Well, I'm going to write a script that should convert our manual to ePUB.  It's really hard to do for the general case of all possible LaTeX documents, but since our manual only uses a small subset of commands, I don't think it'll be too difficult.21:17
tomswartz07very nice.21:18
hanniegodbyk, you are our hero21:18
c7psuperkevin21:18
godbykhannie: Only if I get a working script. :-)21:18
tomswartz07i havent tested it, but does anyone know if there are formatting issues with the PDF on a basic eReader? (OG Kindle, for example)21:19
hanniegodbyk, will you inform the list about booktype?21:19
tomswartz07I know some LaTeX PDFs dont play nice.21:19
godbykhannie: Sure.21:19
hanniety21:19
hannietomswartz07, I think our manual.pdf looks fine21:20
hannieIf authors do not know the latex code others will help them21:20
godbyktomswartz07: It could probably be formatted a little better as it's currently on a full sheet of paper. If we generated a PDF on smaller page sizes, it might look better on the ebook readers.  (I haven't tested this, though.)21:21
godbykIt's certainly something we can explore if anyone has an ebook reader and wants to test out some different PDFs for us.21:21
tomswartz07I have a Nook, but it's rooted... Not much help here.21:21
godbyktomswartz07: Will it read PDFs?21:21
tomswartz07the standard PDF looks as perfect as it does on a computer.21:22
hanniegodbyk, we're 20 minutes overtime :)21:22
godbykhannie: Duly noted!21:22
godbykWe can discuss formats some more in the future. Feel free to started a thread on the mailing list about ebooks if you like.21:22
godbyk[TOPIC] Strict deadline21:22
* godbyk doesn't want to keep hannie and c7p up past their bedtime. It's already super-late for them.21:23
tomswartz07sorry folks! :X21:23
c7pi don't have problem with time guys21:23
c7preally21:23
hannieMaybe this will be the task of the EiC, so leave it for the moment21:23
godbykhannie: I think we have to sort out what changes need to be made before we can establish a deadline, too.21:23
hannieok21:24
godbyk[TOPIC] Any other business?21:24
hannieI am quite happy with the results of our first Precise meeting,21:24
godbykIs there anything else urgent that we need to discuss during this meeting?21:24
c7precap the tasks that we have to ?21:25
hanniealthough I think it a pity so many people put their names on the list but did not come21:25
godbykSure.21:25
tomswartz07None here. I look forward to starting in on the 12.04 edition.21:25
godbyk[ACTION] To help alleviate these problems in the future, we will provide clear instructions on how to take the screenshots and insert them in the manual. The chapter author and editor are responsible for the screenshots that appear in their chapter. These instructions should appear in the style guide.21:25
godbyk[ACTION] Explicitly spell out the duties of the chapter author and editor so they know what their responsibilities are.21:25
hannienope. I want to thank you all for being here21:25
godbyk[ACTION] Hannie will email the authors to assess what problems they encountered during the previous release cycle.21:25
godbyk[ACTION] Authors will be responsible for determining what needs to be updated from 11.10 to 12.04.21:25
godbyk[ACTION] Provide clearer lists of responsibilities and guidance for each of these roles.21:25
godbyk[ACTION] godbyk will create a draft list of responsibilities for each of the roles and post it to the mailing list for feedback.21:25
godbyk[ACTION] godbyk will inform the list about Booktype.21:26
c7pok good21:26
godbykI think we should also hold regular meetings again.21:26
benonsoftwareYou should book #ubuntu-meeting for the next meeting21:26
hannieRight, there is work to be done21:26
c7pyeah i agree21:26
godbykThat seemed to help keep people involved in the project.21:26
tomswartz07godbyk: +121:26
c7peven every week21:26
hanniec7p, will you plan the next meeting?21:27
c7psure21:27
hannieoh, so nice to work with you guys!21:27
c7pme 221:27
godbykc7p: thanks!21:27
hannieSee you next time.21:27
c7pcheers21:27
godbykOkay, then. Meeting adjourned!21:27
godbyk#endmeeting21:27
tomswartz07cheers all!21:27
c7pcheers21:27
godbykFeel free to hang around and chat some more, if you li.e21:27
godbyklike, rather.21:27
c7pi'll stay21:28
tomswartz07im staying :)21:28
godbykI'll collect these minutes notes and post the minutes to the mailing list.21:28
hannieyes, time to relax. I have been working for Ubuntu all day21:28
* benonsoftware is also staying :P21:28
tomswartz07did anyone contact any news sources RE: the 11.10 edition?21:28
godbyktomswartz07: Nope, though one news source contacted me.21:28
tomswartz07its release, I should say21:28
godbykLet me find the link.21:28
godbyktomswartz07: http://news.efytimes.com/e1/80966/Here-Comes-Ubuntu-Manual21:29
tomswartz07very nice!21:30
godbykLooks like we've had one person buy the print edition of 11.10.21:30
benonsoftwareJust wondering has any work been done on the website?21:30
godbykI'll have to see how many downloads we've had.21:30
benonsoftware(After what happend last time and test.)21:30
godbykbenonsoftware: No, but I'd really like to get a new website up and running.21:30
benonsoftwareOkies21:30
godbykI'd like the website to be manageable by multiple people (project leaders, editor-in-chief).21:31
benonsoftwareHow is it manage atm?21:31
godbykAt the moment, I log into the server and edit the site by hand while it's live. Not the best solution, I can assure you!21:31
tomswartz07what if we use a wysiwyg website editor? Weebly comes to mind. It allows multiple editors21:32
tomswartz07its free and allows for custom domains21:32
benonsoftwaregodbyk: Yeah, I've done that before :P21:32
benonsoftwaretomswartz07: tbh I've used weebly a few times and its not really good for sites that ubuntu-manual.org21:33
godbykSome of the things I'd like to be able to do with the website is allow people to modify the text of the site (e.g., add/remove/edit job listings, news items, edit static text), publish manuals (upload the PDF, set the language and format).21:33
godbykAnd that's just for the public-facing site.21:33
godbykIt'd also be nice if we could move all of our writing, editing, translating, and publishing stuff to a web interface to make it easier for everyone to do their work.21:34
godbykthen they wouldn't have to download LaTeX and learn its syntax.21:34
benonsoftwareHmm, okies21:34
godbykor worry about retranslating an entire paragraph just because someone fixed a typo.21:34
tomswartz07i know we tried with having online edits, and those who knew LaTeX would copy/pasta21:34
godbykI have plenty of big ideas, but no time to implement them myself. :/21:35
benonsoftwareWell for the public frontent WordPress in my mind would be a good system (or Drupal)21:35
godbyktomswartz07: We did. I'm not sure how well that worked.  I recall going through and fixing a bunch of LaTeX markup as a result of that.21:35
godbyktomswartz07: Some editors would miss a lot of the markup that they should've inserted.21:35
tomswartz07i see.21:36
godbykbenonsoftware: WordPress would be okay for part of the site. I don't know how well it'd handle our download page, though.  http://ubuntu-manual.org/downloads21:36
godbykWe also need to make sure the site is multilingual.21:36
benonsoftwareWhat do you mean? (About download)21:36
godbykThe big download button on the front page should go to the latest version of the manual for whatever language is being shown at the moment.21:37
godbykSame with the 'buy this book' starburst.21:37
tomswartz07I think that if we move to an online frontend for editing, it would be much easier for authors, but we would lose so much in the featureset in terms of formatting and editing21:37
godbykRight now those are broken a little bit because the site just wasn't designed with that in mind at the very beginning.21:37
godbykbenonsoftware: The dropdown lists and options that allow you to select which PDF you want to download.21:37
benonsoftwareOkies21:38
godbyktomswartz07: Well, we'd need to modify the online editor to allow for the insertion of margin notes, screenshots, and the other elements that exist in our manual.21:38
godbykIf the online editor stored the text in an XML format, for instance, then we could more easily convert it to HTML, ePUB, LaTeX, and other formats.21:39
godbyk(There would still need to be some tweaking after the automatic conversion, I suspect, but it'd handle the bulk of the work.)21:39
godbykThere was a second version of the Ubuntu Manual website that was created.  It lives at <http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/>.21:41
godbykI think it was designed to solve a couple of these issues (and got a face-lift).21:41
godbykBut I'm not sure how to modify anything on the site (e.g., add new downloads).21:42
godbykI don't know if it's best to start from scratch or to build from one of the existing sites.21:42
godbyk(I suspect it's best if we establish clear goals and use cases for our website and design new site from the ground up with these things in mind.)21:43
benonsoftware+121:43
tomswartz07what if we have an open call for new ideas?21:43
godbyktomswartz07: I think it's better that we establish an initial set of ideas first and then we can put it out there to get more opinions and have people look it over.21:44
tomswartz07At my work, we have a method of code review (using gerrit) that allows many of us to make code changes to get approved before go-live21:44
godbykOtherwise I think it'd generate too many ideas and we'd never get anywhere.21:44
tomswartz07perhaps I should rephrase; have an open call for those who can do website design, then take those people and have a brainstorming meeting21:46
c7psounds good21:46
tomswartz07Id be willing to head that group. I've done about half a dozen websites from (mostly) scratch.21:47
c7pthat's very encouraging :)21:48
tomswartz07but, godbyk; youre right. I think we need to get our heads together and get a plan before moving on anything21:48
tomswartz07looking back at how muddled things got, i think planning is something that should be imperative21:49
godbyktomswartz07: I agree.21:54
godbykI think that we need to have a clear picture of what we want before we bring in the web developers.21:54
c7pyess21:54
godbykI think we should be flexible enough to change things a bit of the web devs thing it's a good idea,21:54
godbykbut if we bring in a bunch of web devs and just say, 'Hey, we want a new website,' it's unlikely that we'll get what we really want.21:55
c7pyap21:55
tomswartz07i agree21:55
c7pand we need to gain the respect of the community21:55
c7por at least seem as an active project21:56
godbykc7p: That would definitely help.21:56
godbykAnd for that to happen, I think we need to get a lot better organized.21:56
tomswartz07if we advertise more, it may help21:56
godbykWe've been fairly slap-dash so far.21:56
tomswartz07haha i agree21:56
tomswartz07Ill tell you what. Ill talk to the guys at OMG: Ben originally started the project, so he's sure to be willing to advertise it21:57
godbyktomswartz07: They've done a great job in the past of advertising for us: posting about new releases of the manual and about our call for 'job' applicants.21:57
godbykI think that once we figure out exactly what we want/need, then we can go to them and have them help us get the word out.21:58
godbykBut we can't skip that first step. :)21:58
tomswartz07i concur.21:58
c7p+10021:58
tomswartz07they didnt talk about the oneiric release, though. did they?21:59
c7pwe didn't contact them so i don't think they did21:59
godbyktomswartz07: Nope, but then I haven't emailed them about it directly, either.21:59
tomswartz07at any rate, it might help to advertise it. we did work pretty hard on it.21:59
godbyktomswartz07: If you'd like to tip them off about it, you're welcome to.21:59
tomswartz07sounds like a plan. Ill do that right now!22:00
tomswartz07<('-'<)22:00
godbykDoes anyone know who runs the meetingology bot?22:01
godbykSince mootbot appears to be defunct/dead, it'd be handy to have meetingology hand out in our channel to help with meetings.22:02
benonsoftwaregodbyk: Alan Bell does22:03
benonsoftwareSee #meetingology22:03
godbykbenonsoftware: Thanks. I'll contact them.22:03
benonsoftwareNo worries22:03
godbykbenonsoftware: I've messaged Alan about it.22:04
benonsoftwareOkies22:04
tomswartz07Should I ask OMG to put in about volunteers?22:06
godbyktomswartz07: Let's wait to hear back from hannie to see what authors are still available, etc.22:06
tomswartz07if so, who to contact?22:06
godbykthen we'll know what volunteers we'll need.22:06
tomswartz07sounds good. :)22:08
tomswartz07ok- im off! this laundry isnt going to do itself :P22:10
tomswartz07great meeting everyone! talk to you all soon22:11
godbykSee you later, tomswartz07. Thanks for coming!22:11
c7pcya tomswartz0722:11
c7pthanks for coming22:12
godbykHey.. meetingology has joined us.  That'll come in handy for our next meeting.22:14
c7pxD22:14
benonsoftware:P22:18

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