[20:02] <hannie> Hey, the troika is here! where is the rest? Hi godbyk and c7p
[20:02] <c7p> lol
[20:02] <godbyk> Hello, hannie.
[20:02] <c7p> hello
[20:03] <hannie> We'll have to wait for the others to join, in the meantime I do some further reading
[20:04] <c7p> agenda if anyone wants to read: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-March2012Meeting
[20:06] <tomswartz07> hi all
[20:06] <hannie> hello, tomswartz07
[20:07] <hannie> we are waiting for more people to join us
[20:07] <tomswartz07> great. sorry im late!
[20:07] <c7p> hello
[20:08] <godbyk> Shall we get started then?
[20:09] <hannie> I think we should, although there were many more names on the doodle list
[20:09] <godbyk> Okay.
[20:09] <godbyk> Even though mootbot is absent/dead, we'll keep up appearances.
[20:09] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[20:09] <tomswartz07> we're going to be logged, correct? may as well just email it to those who missed
[20:09] <godbyk> The meeting agenda is available at <http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-March2012Meeting>.
[20:09] <hannie> will this be logged anyway?
[20:10] <godbyk> The meeting should still be logged, yes.
[20:10] <godbyk> If not, I'm logging it.
[20:10] <hannie> ok
[20:10] <c7p> good
[20:10] <tomswartz07> great. ok. lets get into it then :)
[20:10] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Recent Oneiric release
[20:10] <c7p> who starts this ?
[20:10] <godbyk> First off, as you've probably noticed, we just released Getting Started with Ubuntu 11.10 this week.
[20:11] <godbyk> Congratulations and many thanks to everyone who helped out with that manual!
[20:11] <hannie> Yes, we should be proud of the result.
[20:11] <c7p> congrats :) people
[20:12] <tomswartz07> its very nice! congrats
[20:12] <godbyk> Having said that, it took us quite a while to get the Oneiric manual released.  Which leads us to our next agenda item:
[20:12] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Problems we faced during Oneiric
[20:12] <godbyk> c7p: Would you like to take this topic?
[20:12] <c7p> ok i wrote this item so i start :)
[20:13] <c7p> well this topic is opened in order to share our experience and what held the release of the back
[20:14] <tomswartz07> i think that the major holdup was the screenshot collection.
[20:14] <tomswartz07> is that fair to say?
[20:14] <c7p> yeah that's right
[20:14] <hannie> I think reviewing also took too long
[20:14] <c7p> screenshots and the proofreading for me took the most time
[20:14] <c7p> +1 hannie
[20:15] <c7p> what i should mention is that in contrast with the previous releases authors didn't step off
[20:16] <tomswartz07> yes, i thought the chapter authors did a very good job of getting things done in a timely manner.
[20:16] <hannie> One of the solutions could be: 2 persons should keep track of "their chapter" (author(s) and editor(s))
[20:17] <c7p> yeah that sounds great
[20:17] <hannie> and report to the editor-in-chief
[20:17] <hannie> on a regular basis
[20:17] <c7p> yes
[20:17] <hannie> including the screenshots in that chapter
[20:18] <tomswartz07> hannie: now, correct me if Im incorrect; wasnt the screenshot issue caused by the varying methods that people were taking screenshots?
[20:18] <c7p> we have to set a new editor-in-chief since Rick "resigned"
[20:19] <hannie> tomswartz07, yes, but if people had checked "their" chapter it would not have been so much work for others
[20:19] <tomswartz07> hannie: I see.
[20:20] <hannie> c7p: how will we get a new editor-in-chief?
[20:20] <c7p> godbyk: was there any other issue with screens apart from the different resolutions ?
[20:20] <c7p> hannie: :D i don't know
[20:21] <godbyk> c7p: I think the primary problem with the screenshots was that some were taken at the wrong resolution.  Another issue is that some screenshots hadn't been taken at all.
[20:21] <tomswartz07> how many screenshots were missing completely?
[20:21] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Not too many. I think there were perhaps 2–3 screenshots that were missing completely.
[20:22] <c7p> hannie: regarding EiC we have to add the opening on the website if there isn't any member of the project that wants to take the role
[20:22] <godbyk> A missing screenshot is one where someone has written \screenshot{...} in the .tex file, but hasn't captured the screenshot and uploaded it to the repository.
[20:22] <hannie> I am in favour of giving good instructions about screenhots on our website
[20:23] <hannie> Make author/editor responsible for the screenshots, but give them good instructions
[20:23] <tomswartz07> hannie: i agree. perhaps if we are particular in spelling out the duties of each role it will make things easier.
[20:23] <hannie> godbyk, is it possible to update the screenshot instructions on the website?
[20:24] <godbyk> hannie: I'll look into that. I can add it to the style guide, as well.
[20:24] <hannie> godbyk, that would be great.
[20:24] <c7p> tomswartz07: +1
[20:25] <c7p> are there any authors here ?
[20:25] <tomswartz07> i am
[20:26] <c7p> what are the problems you faced ?
[20:27] <c7p> as an author always
[20:27] <tomswartz07> as an author? not too much, actually.
[20:27] <c7p> ah ok
[20:27] <tomswartz07> updating the information and sifting through what has changed since the last version was the most difficult.
[20:28] <c7p> i am asking in order to write down what are the problems in the writing process
[20:28] <tomswartz07> in my section, in particular, there wasn't that much that had changed. perhaps the other sections (where more development took place) had a different experience
[20:28] <hannie> c7p, do we have to send an email to all the authors and ask, or via the mailing list?
[20:28] <c7p> yes maybe
[20:29] <c7p> i haven't sent mails to authors
[20:29] <hannie> Do you want me do do this?
[20:29] <c7p> i think they are all subscribed to the list
[20:29] <godbyk> Hey, ajmontag. You can read the minutes of what we've discussed (and the agenda) here: <http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-March2012Meeting>
[20:29] <hannie> hi ajmontag
[20:29] <tomswartz07> hey ajmontag
[20:30] <c7p> hannie: that would be great, since i have many things on my mind lately
[20:30] <ajmontag> Hello, i'm a bit preoccupied atm, but i'll try to read along!
[20:30] <tomswartz07> i have a mild suggestion for the next version of the manual
[20:30] <hannie> c7p, I will contact them about this via the list
[20:30] <c7p> ok thx
[20:31] <hannie> The other action that should be taken is: find an editor-in-chief. Shall I put that on the list as well?
[20:32] <hannie> tomswartz07, what's the suggestion?
[20:33] <tomswartz07> going along the lines of what we have just discussed, perhaps it would be best to focus (initally) on getting screenshots and compile a list of the differences between the current edition and precise
[20:34] <godbyk> I agree with tomswartz07. I think that establishing the list of differences will make it a lot easier for authors to get started.
[20:34] <godbyk> I don't know if one person can find all the differences, though.
[20:34] <tomswartz07> naturally, the ubuntu changelogs are easy to get, but if we could use those to guide our edits it will make things so much easier
[20:34] <godbyk> We may need a group of people to do this. Or perhaps we should have the authors themselves do it.
[20:35] <hannie> tomswartz07, godbyk I do not quite get this:
[20:35] <hannie> you mean use screenshots to point out the differences between oneiric and precise?
[20:36] <tomswartz07> hannie: no. this is purely for the authors and editors sake.
[20:36] <godbyk> hannie: No, not with screenshots.  We just need to figure out what changes we need to make for the new version.
[20:36] <tomswartz07> it seems to me that when we dig in for the next edition, we are starting from scratch each time.
[20:36] <hannie> you mean make a plan/framework of the differences?
[20:37] <tomswartz07> hannie: exactly
[20:37] <godbyk> hannie: yes.
[20:37] <hannie> ah, ok
[20:37] <tomswartz07> so far, i know that OMG!Ubuntu! and Cannonical themselves provide very good update info.
[20:37] <hannie> First of all, I think we will have to find out if the current authors are willing to continue with "their" chapter
[20:38] <hannie> And then they can find out what the differences are
[20:38] <c7p> i think most of the authors are willing to maintain their chapter
[20:38] <godbyk> how about the chapter editors?
[20:39] <tomswartz07> hannie: agreed. a small addendum, however; if a master list is compiled, then (potentially) a small number of authors can work on a few chapters
[20:39] <godbyk> tomswartz07: true. as long as there aren't *too* many changes.
[20:39] <tomswartz07> just food for thought, however.
[20:39] <godbyk> The switch to Unity was a huge change for us.
[20:39] <tomswartz07> godbyk: i agree.
[20:39] <c7p> we have no chapter editors as far as i remember !
[20:39] <hannie> either a group of people gather a list of all the differences, or
[20:40] <c7p> or there are 2
[20:40] <hannie> the authors/editors do this for their chapter
[20:40] <c7p> that's why the proofreading process didn't went so well
[20:40] <hannie> c7p, yes we have
[20:40] <c7p> how many ?
[20:41] <ajmontag> After  the first of May I will be able to do editing if you'd like.
[20:41] <hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydFl2cTJRNzJPZU56WEI3VzdKNzJtR0E&hl=en_US#gid=3
[20:41] <tomswartz07> hannie: isnt that just what we do now? authors make changes and then those are listed via the commit logs?
[20:41] <c7p> actually how many sections are they assigned to
[20:41] <c7p> this is the list of the people that wanted to contribute as editors
[20:42] <hannie> I think every chapter should have a reviewer/editor assigned to it
[20:42] <c7p> this doesn't mean that they all worked as editors
[20:42] <c7p> sure, the problem is that almost no one wants to work as editor
[20:42] <tomswartz07> well, im very willing to commit to more sections if need be
[20:42] <c7p> *works
[20:42] <c7p> good to know
[20:43] <hannie> I am also available for more than one chapter
[20:43]  * benonsoftware is free is he is needed
[20:43] <hannie> so, we already have three ;)
[20:43] <hannie> make that four
[20:44] <c7p> the crucial part as it seemed with the 11.10 is the proofreading period :D, so if you and other contributors solve this
[20:44] <tomswartz07> fair enough.
[20:44] <c7p> 12.04 will go smooth
[20:44] <hannie> I will ask for editors via the list too
[20:44] <c7p> if we don't face any other new problems of course
[20:45] <c7p> there is no need to do it know
[20:45] <tomswartz07> how many are willing to start in now? perhaps if we use the pre-release interface freezes, we could get that much of a jump before the actual release
[20:45] <hannie> why not? the earlier the better
[20:45] <godbyk> As far as sorting out the changes between 11.10 and 12.04, are we leaving that up to the authors?
[20:45] <c7p> contributors have to know that there is work for them to do atm
[20:46] <c7p> we can call for authors now
[20:46] <hannie> godbyk, that is what I would prefer, yes
[20:46] <tomswartz07> c7p: +1
[20:46] <c7p> but the experience from 11.10 shows that the editors lose their interest if they don't have job to do
[20:47] <hannie> c7p, I can do that in the same email in which I address the current authors
[20:47] <c7p> ok i don't have problem with this
[20:47] <godbyk> hannie: Good idea. That way we can see which authors can't help us this cycle so we can find new authors to fill in those spots.
[20:47] <hannie> c7p, as an editor I experienced a very good cooperation with "my" authors
[20:48] <c7p> good to know :)
[20:48] <tomswartz07> here's a very hopeful thought: if we could get the 12.04 edition released in a timely fashion, do you think we could contact Cannonical to get it featured on their site?
[20:48] <tomswartz07> I could talk to Ben Humphrey and Joey Sneddon to see if we could get it featured on OMG!Ubuntu!
[20:49] <c7p> tomswartz07: i'm not sure about this :/
[20:49] <hannie> tomswartz07, I put an item on the agenda: Promoting the manual. Is that what you mean?
[20:49] <tomswartz07> hannie: surely
[20:49] <c7p> i mean about the canonical
[20:49] <tomswartz07> c7p: what are your reservations?
[20:50] <c7p> i think they want to see something very neat to put it on their website
[20:51] <c7p> you know with great design etc, but that's just thoughts, we don't have anything to lose if we send them a mail
[20:51] <hannie> Well, oneiric is quite neat, don't you think?
[20:52] <c7p> i mean in respect of design
[20:52] <tomswartz07> hannie: i agree. its better than saying 'oh, just go to this website for help'. a co-opted manual may help those just starting.
[20:52] <tomswartz07> at any rate, heres an idea:
[20:53] <hannie> ok, it is still too early to promote Precise. But we should do it when the time is there
[20:53] <c7p> +1
[20:53] <c7p> we have other issues to look now
[20:53] <tomswartz07> if we could get a signal boost from various open source sites, we could get volunteers to help improve the design for 12.04
[20:53] <c7p> i agree
[20:54] <godbyk> tomswartz07: I do have a lot of thoughts on the website end of things, but we'll have to save those for another meeting, I'm afraid.
[20:54] <tomswartz07> godbyk: fair enough.
[20:54] <c7p> tomswartz07: first we need to track down the things we want from them to do, and be specific
[20:55] <godbyk> Shall we move on down the agenda?
[20:55] <tomswartz07> c7p: im willing to help with this, if you wish. moving on.
[20:55] <c7p> yeah
[20:55] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Division of tasks: 1 or more persons responsible for: screenshots, final editing, planning/scheduling, roadmap, publishing etc.
[20:55] <godbyk> I think we've covered some of this already.
[20:56] <godbyk> It looks like we want the authors to be responsible for their own screenshots and for determining what needs to be updated within their chapter, correct?
[20:56] <hannie> yes
[20:56] <tomswartz07> I think so.
[20:56] <c7p> yes
[20:57] <godbyk> I think that the editing should be up to each chapter editor (though we may need to provide some more clear guidelines on what this entails).
[20:57] <hannie> final editing = task editor-in-chief (will be quite a job!)
[20:57] <godbyk> That leaves the editor-in-chief to worry about the bigger-picture stuff like the overall schedule and roadmap for the release cycle and to sign off on the final edition to be published.
[20:57] <c7p> maybe that's a bit deterring for a new EiC that isn't member of the project already :/
[20:57] <hannie> although it depends on the author/editor teams. If they do their best there won't be much to do for the editor-in-chief
[20:58] <godbyk> The scheduling of work within a chapter can be handled by the chapter editor and the chapter authors.
[20:58] <hannie> Yes, first we have many little islands. Later we make it one big country :)
[20:59] <godbyk> I think what's happened in the past few releases is that hannie, c7p, and I fix little bugs and make minor edits throughout the manual.
[20:59] <godbyk> Then when we're tired of doing that, we release the PDF.
[20:59] <godbyk> :)
[20:59] <tomswartz07> not to downplay the role of the EiC, but it seems that the main role is to just give the whole manual a read-through and give it a proofread?
[20:59] <hannie> right. Therefore I insist on giving authors/editors more responsibility
[21:00] <godbyk> tomswartz07: I'd say that the primary role of the EiC it to keep everyone on task and on schedule.
[21:00] <tomswartz07> godbyk: i see.
[21:00] <godbyk> The EiC doesn't do a lot of copy-editing, per se.
[21:00] <godbyk> (Or at least, the EiC shouldn't be responsible for editing the entire manual himself/herself.)
[21:01] <c7p> godbyk: you mean an author/editor coordinator in other words ?
[21:01] <hannie> godbyk, what was the reason Rick stopped? Was it too much work for him?
[21:01] <godbyk> c7p: Yes. As well as the driver of the project during that cycle.
[21:01] <godbyk> hannie: I think his day job started taking up more of his time.
[21:01] <ajmontag> So who ensures consistant voice and style among chapters? EiC?
[21:01] <tomswartz07> perhaps we could give the EiC a task to help promote the manual?
[21:01] <godbyk> ajmontag: Ostensibly, yes. In the past, I don't think that's really happened, though.
[21:02] <c7p> i agree with Kevin
[21:03] <hannie> We have to describe the job for the EiC before we try to find one
[21:03] <tomswartz07> hannie: +1
[21:03] <c7p> yap
[21:04] <tomswartz07> it seems that in our rush to get the manual done, many of the jobs have become muddled.
[21:04] <godbyk> tomswartz07: I agree.
[21:04] <c7p> +1
[21:04] <godbyk> I think that we should more clearly define the responsibilities and duties of each role (author, editor, EiC).
[21:04] <tomswartz07> godbyk: +5
[21:04] <godbyk> That way everyone knows what he/she needs to do.
[21:05] <c7p> godbyk: that's a whole new meeting
[21:05] <godbyk> c7p: Agreed.
[21:05] <c7p> but we need more people on the meeting too
[21:05] <hannie> I suggest we describe these roles via the list
[21:05] <c7p> especially those who are affected
[21:05] <godbyk> Perhaps it's something we can do on the mailing list.  I can write up a draft and post it to the list for feedback if you like.
[21:06] <c7p> hannie: that's a solution too
[21:06] <tomswartz07> godbyk: Google Doc? shared edits?
[21:06] <godbyk> tomswartz07: It might be better to have more of a discussion format to start with.
[21:06] <tomswartz07> i see. good idea.
[21:06] <hannie> godbyk, good idea: make a draft and put it on the list for feedback
[21:06] <godbyk> tomswartz07: ..Since we'll want to collect opinions of what people think their roles currently entail.
[21:06] <godbyk> hannie: Okay, I'll do that.
[21:07] <c7p> btw a collaboration platform would be very helpful
[21:07] <godbyk> c7p: Can you be more specific as to what you mean?
[21:07] <c7p> yes
[21:08] <ajmontag> Well I've gotta run, will catch up with the agenda later on. Bye.
[21:08] <tomswartz07> see ya ajmontag
[21:08] <godbyk> ajmontag: Okay. Thanks for coming, ajmontag.
[21:08] <hannie> bye ajmontag
[21:08] <c7p> we in greek ubuntu community have use atrium http://openatrium.com/
[21:08] <c7p> this helps us to communicate set tasks
[21:09] <c7p> update the status of the task,
[21:09] <benonsoftware> c7p: Is that the one based on Drupal?
[21:09] <c7p> divide team members in task droups etc
[21:09] <c7p> benonsoftware: im not sure but i can ask our admin
[21:09] <hannie> I will add atrium to my favourites and study it later
[21:10] <benonsoftware> As I think we are using that also for one project I'm in
[21:10] <benonsoftware> Yeah, we are using that also
[21:10] <c7p> that's a tool that helps us to see what are the tasks that need to be done
[21:10] <benonsoftware> Yeah
[21:10] <c7p> i usually find myself forgetting what i wanted to do
[21:11] <hannie> c7p, I suggest we put this on the next meeting's agenda
[21:11] <c7p> i agree
[21:11] <godbyk> Okay.
[21:11] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Format of the new version
[21:12] <hannie> godbyk, I did not have time to study booktype, although I started with converting Prologue
[21:12] <hannie> You did the same I noticed
[21:12] <godbyk> hannie: Yeah, I converted the entire Prologue using Booktype.
[21:12] <hannie> So did I :)
[21:12] <godbyk> Booktype appears to be geared primarily toward generated ePUB-format e-books.
[21:13] <hannie> I suppose it is too late now to discuss booktype.
[21:13] <godbyk> So their editor is limited to the types of things you can do with ePUB.
[21:13] <c7p> i think we can use booktype in this series instead of the ubuntuone method
[21:13] <godbyk> I don't think Booktype will work for us as it stands now, but it may be something we can modify or use as an example for creating a new system that works for our needs.
[21:14] <hannie> So, we stick to LaTeX for the moment?
[21:14] <c7p> if we see that everything goes well with booktype and that suits 100% to the project we can publish the manual this way, if not we just convert the chapters to latex as we did for 11.10
[21:14] <godbyk> I am going to work on writing a script that can convert our manual to ePUB format when I get some time.  We'll see how it goes.
[21:15] <godbyk> I think we should stick to LaTeX for now.
[21:15] <tomswartz07> what are the pros of going to booktype?
[21:15] <hannie> This needs further discussion in the next meeting
[21:15] <tomswartz07> im assuming that this is in replacement of LaTeX?
[21:15] <godbyk> tomswartz07: The pros of using Booktype are that it has a web-based editor.
[21:15] <c7p> i tend to latex too kevin
[21:15] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Everyone edits their text via the website.
[21:16] <godbyk> tomswartz07: It's has a sort-of WYSIWYG editor, but it's limited in functionality to what the ePUB format can do.
[21:16] <godbyk> For instance, ePUB doesn't have margin notes.
[21:16] <c7p> authors can comment on chapters, and communicate with each other
[21:16] <tomswartz07> godbyk: I see. Im unfamiliar with it.
[21:16] <hannie> godbyk, what I missed is the possibility of marginnotes
[21:16] <godbyk> ePUB doesn't have footnotes, either, so you have to use end notes with links between the main text and the end note (and vice versa).
[21:16] <c7p> i think we have to share it with the list
[21:16] <hannie> yes, it does have footnotes
[21:16] <hannie> but nommarginnotes
[21:16] <tomswartz07> is there a way to take LaTeX to ePub?
[21:17] <godbyk> hannie: They're not real footnotes, though. They're end notes.
[21:17] <hannie> ah, ok.
[21:17] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Well, I'm going to write a script that should convert our manual to ePUB.  It's really hard to do for the general case of all possible LaTeX documents, but since our manual only uses a small subset of commands, I don't think it'll be too difficult.
[21:18] <tomswartz07> very nice.
[21:18] <hannie> godbyk, you are our hero
[21:18] <c7p> superkevin
[21:18] <godbyk> hannie: Only if I get a working script. :-)
[21:19] <tomswartz07> i havent tested it, but does anyone know if there are formatting issues with the PDF on a basic eReader? (OG Kindle, for example)
[21:19] <hannie> godbyk, will you inform the list about booktype?
[21:19] <tomswartz07> I know some LaTeX PDFs dont play nice.
[21:19] <godbyk> hannie: Sure.
[21:19] <hannie> ty
[21:20] <hannie> tomswartz07, I think our manual.pdf looks fine
[21:20] <hannie> If authors do not know the latex code others will help them
[21:21] <godbyk> tomswartz07: It could probably be formatted a little better as it's currently on a full sheet of paper. If we generated a PDF on smaller page sizes, it might look better on the ebook readers.  (I haven't tested this, though.)
[21:21] <godbyk> It's certainly something we can explore if anyone has an ebook reader and wants to test out some different PDFs for us.
[21:21] <tomswartz07> I have a Nook, but it's rooted... Not much help here.
[21:21] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Will it read PDFs?
[21:22] <tomswartz07> the standard PDF looks as perfect as it does on a computer.
[21:22] <hannie> godbyk, we're 20 minutes overtime :)
[21:22] <godbyk> hannie: Duly noted!
[21:22] <godbyk> We can discuss formats some more in the future. Feel free to started a thread on the mailing list about ebooks if you like.
[21:22] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Strict deadline
[21:23]  * godbyk doesn't want to keep hannie and c7p up past their bedtime. It's already super-late for them.
[21:23] <tomswartz07> sorry folks! :X
[21:23] <c7p> i don't have problem with time guys
[21:23] <c7p> really
[21:23] <hannie> Maybe this will be the task of the EiC, so leave it for the moment
[21:23] <godbyk> hannie: I think we have to sort out what changes need to be made before we can establish a deadline, too.
[21:24] <hannie> ok
[21:24] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Any other business?
[21:24] <hannie> I am quite happy with the results of our first Precise meeting,
[21:24] <godbyk> Is there anything else urgent that we need to discuss during this meeting?
[21:25] <c7p> recap the tasks that we have to ?
[21:25] <hannie> although I think it a pity so many people put their names on the list but did not come
[21:25] <godbyk> Sure.
[21:25] <tomswartz07> None here. I look forward to starting in on the 12.04 edition.
[21:25] <godbyk> [ACTION] To help alleviate these problems in the future, we will provide clear instructions on how to take the screenshots and insert them in the manual. The chapter author and editor are responsible for the screenshots that appear in their chapter. These instructions should appear in the style guide.
[21:25] <godbyk> [ACTION] Explicitly spell out the duties of the chapter author and editor so they know what their responsibilities are.
[21:25] <hannie> nope. I want to thank you all for being here
[21:25] <godbyk> [ACTION] Hannie will email the authors to assess what problems they encountered during the previous release cycle.
[21:25] <godbyk> [ACTION] Authors will be responsible for determining what needs to be updated from 11.10 to 12.04.
[21:25] <godbyk> [ACTION] Provide clearer lists of responsibilities and guidance for each of these roles.
[21:25] <godbyk> [ACTION] godbyk will create a draft list of responsibilities for each of the roles and post it to the mailing list for feedback.
[21:26] <godbyk> [ACTION] godbyk will inform the list about Booktype.
[21:26] <c7p> ok good
[21:26] <godbyk> I think we should also hold regular meetings again.
[21:26] <benonsoftware> You should book #ubuntu-meeting for the next meeting
[21:26] <hannie> Right, there is work to be done
[21:26] <c7p> yeah i agree
[21:26] <godbyk> That seemed to help keep people involved in the project.
[21:26] <tomswartz07> godbyk: +1
[21:26] <c7p> even every week
[21:27] <hannie> c7p, will you plan the next meeting?
[21:27] <c7p> sure
[21:27] <hannie> oh, so nice to work with you guys!
[21:27] <c7p> me 2
[21:27] <godbyk> c7p: thanks!
[21:27] <hannie> See you next time.
[21:27] <c7p> cheers
[21:27] <godbyk> Okay, then. Meeting adjourned!
[21:27] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[21:27] <tomswartz07> cheers all!
[21:27] <c7p> cheers
[21:27] <godbyk> Feel free to hang around and chat some more, if you li.e
[21:27] <godbyk> like, rather.
[21:28] <c7p> i'll stay
[21:28] <tomswartz07> im staying :)
[21:28] <godbyk> I'll collect these minutes notes and post the minutes to the mailing list.
[21:28] <hannie> yes, time to relax. I have been working for Ubuntu all day
[21:28]  * benonsoftware is also staying :P
[21:28] <tomswartz07> did anyone contact any news sources RE: the 11.10 edition?
[21:28] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Nope, though one news source contacted me.
[21:28] <tomswartz07> its release, I should say
[21:28] <godbyk> Let me find the link.
[21:29] <godbyk> tomswartz07: http://news.efytimes.com/e1/80966/Here-Comes-Ubuntu-Manual
[21:30] <tomswartz07> very nice!
[21:30] <godbyk> Looks like we've had one person buy the print edition of 11.10.
[21:30] <benonsoftware> Just wondering has any work been done on the website?
[21:30] <godbyk> I'll have to see how many downloads we've had.
[21:30] <benonsoftware> (After what happend last time and test.)
[21:30] <godbyk> benonsoftware: No, but I'd really like to get a new website up and running.
[21:30] <benonsoftware> Okies
[21:31] <godbyk> I'd like the website to be manageable by multiple people (project leaders, editor-in-chief).
[21:31] <benonsoftware> How is it manage atm?
[21:31] <godbyk> At the moment, I log into the server and edit the site by hand while it's live. Not the best solution, I can assure you!
[21:32] <tomswartz07> what if we use a wysiwyg website editor? Weebly comes to mind. It allows multiple editors
[21:32] <tomswartz07> its free and allows for custom domains
[21:32] <benonsoftware> godbyk: Yeah, I've done that before :P
[21:33] <benonsoftware> tomswartz07: tbh I've used weebly a few times and its not really good for sites that ubuntu-manual.org
[21:33] <godbyk> Some of the things I'd like to be able to do with the website is allow people to modify the text of the site (e.g., add/remove/edit job listings, news items, edit static text), publish manuals (upload the PDF, set the language and format).
[21:33] <godbyk> And that's just for the public-facing site.
[21:34] <godbyk> It'd also be nice if we could move all of our writing, editing, translating, and publishing stuff to a web interface to make it easier for everyone to do their work.
[21:34] <godbyk> then they wouldn't have to download LaTeX and learn its syntax.
[21:34] <benonsoftware> Hmm, okies
[21:34] <godbyk> or worry about retranslating an entire paragraph just because someone fixed a typo.
[21:34] <tomswartz07> i know we tried with having online edits, and those who knew LaTeX would copy/pasta
[21:35] <godbyk> I have plenty of big ideas, but no time to implement them myself. :/
[21:35] <benonsoftware> Well for the public frontent WordPress in my mind would be a good system (or Drupal)
[21:35] <godbyk> tomswartz07: We did. I'm not sure how well that worked.  I recall going through and fixing a bunch of LaTeX markup as a result of that.
[21:35] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Some editors would miss a lot of the markup that they should've inserted.
[21:36] <tomswartz07> i see.
[21:36] <godbyk> benonsoftware: WordPress would be okay for part of the site. I don't know how well it'd handle our download page, though.  http://ubuntu-manual.org/downloads
[21:36] <godbyk> We also need to make sure the site is multilingual.
[21:36] <benonsoftware> What do you mean? (About download)
[21:37] <godbyk> The big download button on the front page should go to the latest version of the manual for whatever language is being shown at the moment.
[21:37] <godbyk> Same with the 'buy this book' starburst.
[21:37] <tomswartz07> I think that if we move to an online frontend for editing, it would be much easier for authors, but we would lose so much in the featureset in terms of formatting and editing
[21:37] <godbyk> Right now those are broken a little bit because the site just wasn't designed with that in mind at the very beginning.
[21:37] <godbyk> benonsoftware: The dropdown lists and options that allow you to select which PDF you want to download.
[21:38] <benonsoftware> Okies
[21:38] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Well, we'd need to modify the online editor to allow for the insertion of margin notes, screenshots, and the other elements that exist in our manual.
[21:39] <godbyk> If the online editor stored the text in an XML format, for instance, then we could more easily convert it to HTML, ePUB, LaTeX, and other formats.
[21:39] <godbyk> (There would still need to be some tweaking after the automatic conversion, I suspect, but it'd handle the bulk of the work.)
[21:41] <godbyk> There was a second version of the Ubuntu Manual website that was created.  It lives at <http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/>.
[21:41] <godbyk> I think it was designed to solve a couple of these issues (and got a face-lift).
[21:42] <godbyk> But I'm not sure how to modify anything on the site (e.g., add new downloads).
[21:42] <godbyk> I don't know if it's best to start from scratch or to build from one of the existing sites.
[21:43] <godbyk> (I suspect it's best if we establish clear goals and use cases for our website and design new site from the ground up with these things in mind.)
[21:43] <benonsoftware> +1
[21:43] <tomswartz07> what if we have an open call for new ideas?
[21:44] <godbyk> tomswartz07: I think it's better that we establish an initial set of ideas first and then we can put it out there to get more opinions and have people look it over.
[21:44] <tomswartz07> At my work, we have a method of code review (using gerrit) that allows many of us to make code changes to get approved before go-live
[21:44] <godbyk> Otherwise I think it'd generate too many ideas and we'd never get anywhere.
[21:46] <tomswartz07> perhaps I should rephrase; have an open call for those who can do website design, then take those people and have a brainstorming meeting
[21:46] <c7p> sounds good
[21:47] <tomswartz07> Id be willing to head that group. I've done about half a dozen websites from (mostly) scratch.
[21:48] <c7p> that's very encouraging :)
[21:48] <tomswartz07> but, godbyk; youre right. I think we need to get our heads together and get a plan before moving on anything
[21:49] <tomswartz07> looking back at how muddled things got, i think planning is something that should be imperative
[21:54] <godbyk> tomswartz07: I agree.
[21:54] <godbyk> I think that we need to have a clear picture of what we want before we bring in the web developers.
[21:54] <c7p> yess
[21:54] <godbyk> I think we should be flexible enough to change things a bit of the web devs thing it's a good idea,
[21:55] <godbyk> but if we bring in a bunch of web devs and just say, 'Hey, we want a new website,' it's unlikely that we'll get what we really want.
[21:55] <c7p> yap
[21:55] <tomswartz07> i agree
[21:55] <c7p> and we need to gain the respect of the community
[21:56] <c7p> or at least seem as an active project
[21:56] <godbyk> c7p: That would definitely help.
[21:56] <godbyk> And for that to happen, I think we need to get a lot better organized.
[21:56] <tomswartz07> if we advertise more, it may help
[21:56] <godbyk> We've been fairly slap-dash so far.
[21:56] <tomswartz07> haha i agree
[21:57] <tomswartz07> Ill tell you what. Ill talk to the guys at OMG: Ben originally started the project, so he's sure to be willing to advertise it
[21:57] <godbyk> tomswartz07: They've done a great job in the past of advertising for us: posting about new releases of the manual and about our call for 'job' applicants.
[21:58] <godbyk> I think that once we figure out exactly what we want/need, then we can go to them and have them help us get the word out.
[21:58] <godbyk> But we can't skip that first step. :)
[21:58] <tomswartz07> i concur.
[21:58] <c7p> +100
[21:59] <tomswartz07> they didnt talk about the oneiric release, though. did they?
[21:59] <c7p> we didn't contact them so i don't think they did
[21:59] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Nope, but then I haven't emailed them about it directly, either.
[21:59] <tomswartz07> at any rate, it might help to advertise it. we did work pretty hard on it.
[21:59] <godbyk> tomswartz07: If you'd like to tip them off about it, you're welcome to.
[22:00] <tomswartz07> sounds like a plan. Ill do that right now!
[22:00] <tomswartz07> <('-'<)
[22:01] <godbyk> Does anyone know who runs the meetingology bot?
[22:02] <godbyk> Since mootbot appears to be defunct/dead, it'd be handy to have meetingology hand out in our channel to help with meetings.
[22:03] <benonsoftware> godbyk: Alan Bell does
[22:03] <benonsoftware> See #meetingology
[22:03] <godbyk> benonsoftware: Thanks. I'll contact them.
[22:03] <benonsoftware> No worries
[22:04] <godbyk> benonsoftware: I've messaged Alan about it.
[22:04] <benonsoftware> Okies
[22:06] <tomswartz07> Should I ask OMG to put in about volunteers?
[22:06] <godbyk> tomswartz07: Let's wait to hear back from hannie to see what authors are still available, etc.
[22:06] <tomswartz07> if so, who to contact?
[22:06] <godbyk> then we'll know what volunteers we'll need.
[22:08] <tomswartz07> sounds good. :)
[22:10] <tomswartz07> ok- im off! this laundry isnt going to do itself :P
[22:11] <tomswartz07> great meeting everyone! talk to you all soon
[22:11] <godbyk> See you later, tomswartz07. Thanks for coming!
[22:11] <c7p> cya tomswartz07
[22:12] <c7p> thanks for coming
[22:14] <godbyk> Hey.. meetingology has joined us.  That'll come in handy for our next meeting.
[22:14] <c7p> xD
[22:18] <benonsoftware> :P