[00:00] morning AU/NZ folks [00:01] Morning. [00:06] Aha! *That's* why nothing was showing up :) [00:07] Mornin' all. [00:24] good "morning" === mbiebl_ is now known as mbiebl [02:53] hi, what do you do when you need to change a patch between package versions? [02:54] I just overwrote the patch in debian/patches, instead of adding a new patch so that quilt pop can be applied to revert the package to the same state as previous version [02:54] I also felt the need to change the patch names, and so I did === pikkachu is now known as pikkachuAway === pikkachuAway is now known as pikkachu [05:29] Good morning [05:48] What, it's pitti-morning already? Damn you, daylight saving! [05:54] I actually got up comparatively late :) [05:56] good morning [05:56] bonjour didrocks [05:56] guten morgen pitti, how are you? [05:57] didrocks: quite fine, thanks! we had a quiet wekend; how are you? [05:57] pitti: quiet week-end here as well. Everything's well :) [05:59] hi all [05:59] what do you do when a patch needs to be changed between package versions? [06:01] pikkachu: perhaps if you rephrase the question, you've asked this several times over the weekend and I"m not sure what you mean [06:03] micahg: can't you imagine yourself changing a patch? [06:04] micahg: imagine you maintain a local patch [06:04] micahg: for whatever reasons, you want to change the patch [06:04] pikkachu: the simple answer to your question is change it, but I"m guessing you're asking more [06:04] micahg: just like you change a branch, that simple [06:05] micahg: I'm simply changing the patch as needed, yes, just like we do with branches [06:05] and unless this is a desktop package maintained in the desktop team branches, this is OT for this channel, #ubuntu-packaging would be better [06:05] micahg: I was just confused if that's the usual way to go [06:06] micahg: for example, 01_fix_bug_xyz.patch, then you work to improve the patch and you just replace the file instead of adding 02_improvements_to_bug_xyz_fix.patch [06:07] pikkachu: let's move to #ubuntu-packaging unless you're working on a desktop branch for archive upload [06:07] despite in the latter case being possible to revert to prior states with quilt pop [06:07] ah sorry [07:08] pitti: did you try the new compiz btw? (both in ubuntu-desktop and the unity-team/ppa) [07:10] didrocks: oh, I didn't; upgrading now [07:10] G'Morning [07:10] hey Sweetshark [07:15] pitti: any objections against the analysis in bug 969707 or the conclusion that we need pre-depends? [07:15] Launchpad bug 969707 in libreoffice "package python-uno 1:3.4.4-0ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: sub-processo novo script pre-installation retornou estado de saída de erro 1" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/969707 [07:27] Sweetshark: why does the preinst need to call sync_extensions in the first place? that seems very unreliable to me [07:27] preinsts should do as little as possible, the only real reliability you can get is in postinsts [07:28] good morning everyone [07:29] hey chrisccoulson [07:29] Sweetshark: but yes, in general you need to pre-depend on anything you use in a preinst, except for essential packages [07:29] Sweetshark: but more importantly, preinst scripts which use non-essential commands are strongly, I mean STRONGLY discouraged [07:30] Sweetshark: in Debian you are required to discuss adding pre-depends: publically and get consensus [07:30] because they really really hurt the upgrade progess [07:30] process [07:30] hi pitti, how are you? [07:31] chrisccoulson: very well, thanks! had a nice weekend? [07:31] didrocks: restarting now to get new compiz [07:31] pitti - yeah, it wasn't too bad thank. we cleared a lot of junk from our house and got my daughters new room painted [07:32] pitti: waiting anxiously ;) [07:32] hey chrisccoulson! [07:33] hi didrocks [07:33] right, now to break everyones firefox menus :) [07:35] didrocks: back [07:36] didrocks: so, when I press win+up for maximizing, I don't get the sticky launcher/help any more; the launcher still appears, though [07:36] didrocks: otherwise the first few seconds seem just fine :) [07:37] pitti: the sticky shouldn't appear in that case in fact, but TBH, it can still appear in other cases ;) [07:37] you just got lucky [07:37] pitti: and I'm moving the shortcuts for ctrl + Super in a few minutes [07:37] so ctrl + super + Up/Down/Right/Left [07:39] jibel: as you are the master of findings bugs in a few milliseconds (even sometimes before the update is installed), can you give a try to the new compiz? (in the ubuntu-desktop ppa?) :) [07:50] hey [07:51] hi seb128 [07:51] bonjour seb128, ca va? [07:51] hey pitti, chrisccoulson, how are you? [07:51] pitti, ca va bien merci ! [07:51] seb128, yeah, good thanks. and you? [07:51] seb128: tres bien, merci! [07:51] good thanks ;-) [07:51] did you guys have a good w.e? [07:52] seb128: can I annoy you with udisks again? I sent a proposed patch to bug 899757, but I need you to verify it [07:52] Launchpad bug 899757 in udisks "udisks-daemon assertion error: HACK: Wanting to register object at path `%s' but there is already an object there." [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/899757 [07:52] short week this week! do you guys have friday off as well? [07:52] seb128: it was rather quiet, but nice indeed [07:52] seb128: we have Friday and Monday as national holidays, and I took Thursday off [07:52] pitti, ok, I finish dealing with w.e backlog and give that a try [07:52] we'll go to Dresden again on Wednesday afternoon, so I'll work offline in the train [07:52] nice long weekend back home [07:52] pitti, ok, France as Monday, I collect Friday because I'm half german :p [07:53] has* [07:53] seb128: you should have said "I'm 'alf German" [07:53] ;-) [07:53] * pitti hugs seb128 [07:53] * seb128 hugs pitti back [07:53] seb128: so, I tried for another two hours over the weekend, but scsi_debug is not good enough to reproduce this :/ [07:54] pitti: right, I saw that in the debian policy. however that change by rene for debian bug 658646 works and its a little late to look and test alternatives. [07:54] Debian bug 658646 in libreoffice-pdfimport "libreoffice-pdfimport: Extension does not work at all" [Grave,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/658646 [07:55] salut seb128, bon week-end? [07:56] didrocks, lut, nickel, et toi ? [07:56] seb128: ça va bien, même si j'ai une vrai semaine, MOI! :) [07:56] ;-) [07:57] pitti, oh, so we tie again at 306 [07:57] indeed! [07:57] pitti, well done to get over the 300 mark as well ;-) [07:57] seb128: we need to coordinate at the end of the cycle if we are close, perhaps we can walk over the finish line together :) [07:57] seb128: cheers :) [07:58] that would be good indeed ;-) [07:58] if you are more than 5 ahead, you are the well deserved winner, of course [08:02] Goooooood mooooornin' intarwebz! [08:07] * didrocks has the feeling he will feel alone on Friday :) [08:07] and maybe on Monday too if I swap it for later (for having the maximum time right now for next unity release) [08:13] didrocks, salut [08:13] didrocks, 1:0.9.7.4-0ubuntu1~ppa1 ? [08:13] jibel: hello ;) oui [08:20] didrocks, is it enough to kill compiz to load the new version or I must logout/in ? [08:20] jibel: it's enough to kill it. However, one on the interesting fix was the hang out on startup :) [08:20] didrocks, ok [08:24] didrocks, how do I disable the kb shortcuts help screen ? [08:25] bonjour jibel, ca va? [08:26] jibel: there is nothing to disable it AFAIK [08:26] hey pitti , I nearly died electrocuted half an hour ago, but seems to be ok, more white hairs :) [08:26] jibel: oh? what happened? [08:26] smspillaz: hi! about bug 940603 - compiz won't start with that plugin enabled :-( [08:26] Launchpad bug 940603 in unity "white box randomly shows up at top left corner blocking applications from using stuff under it" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/940603 [08:27] htorque: is it last in the plugin list ? [08:27] didrocks, I was playing with cables [08:27] smspillaz: let me check [08:27] to to ccsm, advanced settings, disable auto plugin sorting and then put it after unityshell [08:27] smspillaz: yes [08:27] maybe I should put that in the load rules [08:27] hmm [08:27] does it crash or somethign then ? [08:27] smspillaz: no, i just don't see anything but the desktop [08:28] hi seb128, good morning! [08:28] ivanka, hey! how are you? [08:28] smspillaz: let me try a session restart [08:29] seb128: Very well and back in the UK. Now that I have network I just upgraded to 12.04, which is why I am here :-) [08:29] ivanka, oh ... ok! tell what is wrong ;-) [08:30] smspillaz: yes, that did it. though i'm getting lots of flickering on the unity elements. [08:30] seb128: it tells me "The package system is broken" [08:30] blargh [08:30] htorque: post your .xsession-errors ? [08:30] smspillaz: yeah, will try to reproduce the white window and add it to the report [08:31] ivanka, seems like your upgrade did it an issue? can you go on a command line and sudo apt-get -f install? [08:31] thanks [08:34] seb128: that seems to have made python-uno all happy again. The package system is no longer broken. Thank you :-) [08:34] ivanka, you're welcome ;-) [08:47] smspillaz: does this plugin has the potential to make the bug not happen? [08:48] no [08:48] why [08:48] ok, then i just need to try harder. thanks. [08:48] can't see it ? [08:48] haha [08:48] ha, got it [08:50] htorque__: I got a white window just now [08:50] but you know [08:50] after I disable my debugging plugin [08:50] me sad [08:51] uhhh what [08:51] hmm [08:51] I wonder why I can't select it using this thing [08:51] thats ba [08:51] *ad [08:53] smspillaz: ditto :-( [08:53] I wonder if its something else then [08:53] could be a frame window [08:53] I'll change the things [08:53] to pick frame window geoemtry [09:04] smspillaz: does that help anyhow? → compiz (stackdebugger) - Warn: 0x1c00007 requested invalid layer 0x7ffffff [09:04] that window is the panel [09:04] FFFFFF [09:04] how on earth are they still happening !?!? [09:04] seb128: yay more syncs [09:05] pitti, ;-) [09:06] smspillaz: though that might be from a different bug (bug 944701), i have no idea if that's really a dupe. [09:06] Launchpad bug 944701 in unity "Sometimes a single white pixel shows in the top-left corner (dup-of: 940603)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/944701 [09:06] Launchpad bug 940603 in unity "white box randomly shows up at top left corner blocking applications from using stuff under it" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/940603 [09:07] seb128: btw, new glib landed in unstable, I uploaded pygobject, gtk 3.4 will follow soon, then the rest of gnome 3.4; so we might be able to merge/sync more [09:07] whelp my connection died [09:07] pitti, there are quite some 3. [09:07] dumb skype [09:07] pitti, there are quite some 3.4 component landing in experimental, unstable already [09:08] seb128: who looks after skype? [09:08] thumper, microsoft [09:08] * thumper snorts [09:08] seb128: who looks after skype in ubuntu? [09:08] it's in the partner repository [09:08] thumper, microsoft? dunno it's a partner thing [09:08] it blows [09:08] last uploaders were mvo and Brian Thomasson [09:08] I can't get it to use pulse [09:09] and it tries to output to my speakers [09:09] makes it unusable [09:09] 10:00 < debfx> Qt 4.8.1 needs testing. It's available from kubuntu-ppa/experimental [09:09] thumper, did that start recently? [09:09] thumper: right, I haven't been able to use it with my BT headset [09:09] seb128: a while ago, but I was still using the oneiric one [09:09] just changed to precies [09:09] but same issue [09:09] anyone from unity or ubuntu one to test Qt 4.8.1? [09:10] Riddell, ask on #ubuntu-unity for unity2d maybe [09:10] Riddell: I can give unity-2d a quick test with it if that helps [09:10] seb128: please go ahead, it's your flavour [09:10] pitti: please [09:10] Error: 'kubuntu-ppa/experimental' invalid [09:11] Riddell, it's not my flavor, I use unity-3d :p [09:11] Error: 'kubuntu/experimental' invalid [09:11] Error: 'kubuntu/ppa' invalid [09:11] hmm [09:11] seb128: ubuntu desktop uses unity-"2d" [09:11] Riddell: ^ so what's the actual PPA? [09:11] pitti: sudo apt-add-repository ppa:kubuntu-ppa/experimental [09:11] Riddell, right, well whoever update something should be responsible to make sure the update does't break and give it some testing [09:12] well anyway pitti is testing it, so good ;-) [09:12] but it could be worth notifying the unity-2d guys [09:12] yes, it would [09:12] Riddell: argh, silly me; forgot the ppa: prefix, thanks [09:16] htorque, smspillaz: there was an interesting comment on a duplicate of the white rectangle bug which claims it's triggered by chromium 18 notifications [09:16] "it has to do with Chrom{e,ium} 18.x and notifications. The [09:16] white box appears when I have a gmail notifications specifically." [09:16] downgrading to chromium 17 and it doesn't happen [09:16] htorque: do you use chromium? [09:19] seb128: yes [09:19] the trigger seems to be flash content for me, though. === htorque__ is now known as htorque [09:22] stop using chromium? sounds like a good fix to me! [09:23] chrisccoulson, ;-) [09:23] chrisccoulson, btw how are the hud issues with the new dbusmenu and firefox uploads? [09:25] seb128, yeah, it seems much better. i fixed quite a few things on the firefox side last week too :) [09:25] (which is what i've just uploaded) [09:26] chrisccoulson, right, I read the changelog, well done! [09:26] 3 kernel panic in a morning, not happy morning :/ [09:27] didrocks, stop doing ios! ;-) [09:27] seb128: can do if I stop working :p [09:32] pitti, udisks patch is not good [09:33] seb128: what do you see? [09:34] pitti, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/911256/ [09:35] pitti, wait, maybe I screwed the packaging [09:35] debuild binary didn't do what I wanted [09:35] i.e seems it didn't do the make install again [09:36] where am I supposed to find the new privacy settings? [09:36] rickspencer3, system settings -> privacy [09:36] seb128, hmm, I guess it didn't get installed [09:36] rickspencer3, it's on the bottom line [09:37] rickspencer3, install activity-log-manager-control-center [09:37] seb, is it not part of the default? [09:37] seb128: ok, waiting for your next round then [09:37] rickspencer3, it is [09:37] I would have thought I would have gotten it in a dist-upgrade [09:38] pitti, I've something weird, I cped the binary and retried, now udisks exit without error [09:38] seb128: btw, no reason to cp; you can just sudo src/udisks-daemon -r [09:38] rickspencer3, maybe you used "upgrade" rather than "dist-upgrade" on some days? [09:38] pitti, ok, well, now I get udisks to exit without error :-( [09:39] seb128: what's the last three or so lines of output? [09:40] pitti, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/911261/ [09:40] pitti, ok, let me do a clean get a new source, reapply the patch round [09:41] rickspencer3, using "upgrade" avoid having things uninstalled but make you miss new recommends as well [09:41] seb128, right, but i never upgrade, I always dist-upgrade [09:41] anyway, it's installed now [09:42] rickspencer3, well maybe you did catch dist-upgrade at a time the new binary was not available [09:42] seb128, right, it's probably just one of those things [09:42] rickspencer3, since that's only a recommends apt is happy to ignore those when that happens [09:42] I'm not worried [09:44] pitti, oh [09:45] pitti, ok, got it [09:45] pitti, [09:45] g_warning ("Ignoring device with nonexisting native path: %s", device->priv->native_path); [09:45] (gdb) p device [09:45] $1 = (Device *) 0x0 [09:45] pitti, no cookie for you [09:45] -> SEGV [09:48] pitti, out of that new bug the patch works fine, i.e I dropped the %s from the g_warning and got the buggy case -> udisks keeps running [10:01] seb128: erk, indeed; should be device->priv->native_path -> native_path [10:01] seb128: did you test with this/ [10:01] seb128: as I said, I have no way of actually triggering this condition :/ [10:01] pitti, I tested dropping the %s as said [10:02] or that [10:02] pitti, that works, udisks2 seems solid as well [10:02] - g_warning ("Ignoring device with nonexisting native path: %s", device->priv->native_path); [10:02] + g_warning ("Ignoring device with nonexisting native path: %s", native_path); [10:02] seb128: ^ [10:02] pitti, ok, I had just dropped the argument for testing, works fine [10:02] seb128: ok, many thanks for testing! good to hear that udisks2 is unaffected [10:02] pitti, yw [10:02] seb128: udisks1 still has a lot of hacks and workarounds for earlier kernels [10:02] this is one of them [10:03] ok [10:03] * pitti sends upstream and will upload this week [10:16] seb128: thanks for the libindicator revert :) [10:17] didrocks, yw [10:17] seb128: was spamming us with crashes :) [10:17] g_variant is hard, people keep screwing up using it ;-) [10:17] C++ is so much easier... [10:17] * thumper trolls [10:23] mvo, hello. Have you time to look at the bug fix merge proposals for session-installer and aptdaemon? [10:28] glatzor: yes, sorry that it took so long [10:32] seb128: do you have a idea why there is no underline in the label in this example https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/955030/+attachment/2988350/+files/lala.py [10:32] Launchpad bug 955030 in software-center ""Show N technical items" doesnt look clickable" [High,Triaged] [10:39] mvo, hey [10:41] seb128: this is a bit puzzling, almost like there is some special behavior triggered for a bottom hbox that is expand=False [10:42] seb128: this makes the underline appear: [10:42] -box.pack_start(hbox, False, True, 5) [10:42] +box.pack_start(hbox, True, True, 5) [10:46] mvo, puzzling [10:48] seb128: yeah, works fine in 11.10 fwiw [10:48] seb128: I played around with various stuff, putting the bottom hbox in a alignment etc but can't make it display the underscore, funny enough bold color etc all work [10:51] mvo, did you try in C to see if that's python specific? [10:52] mvo, I tried ld preloading some gtk version back, i.e 3.3.10, still the same bug... [10:52] mvo, do you know when that issue started? [10:52] seb128: unfortunately not, I can start working on a workaround for this though [10:53] mvo, I'm about to go for lunch but I will keep looking for a bit and try the C equivalent then [10:55] seb128: ok, lets talk in a bit [11:28] seb128: so, if we want the HUD key being editable, we need to touch GTK_TYPE_CELL_RENDERER_ACCEL I guess in Gtk [11:28] seb128: not sure we want that though [11:29] didrocks, you mean editable in the ui? [11:29] seb128: right, for accepting key modifiers like "Alt" [11:29] (without any keybinding [11:29] * didrocks looks at other masks [11:29] didrocks, I don't like the sound of it ;-) [11:30] seb128: I'm not surprised :p me neither for the record [11:30] didrocks, can we bind a special ui in the appearance behaviour tab rather? [11:30] JohnLea: ^ [11:31] * didrocks looks at Gtk meanwhile [11:31] seb128: in addition to the Gtk change, there is some changes needed for g-c-c to not reject Alt afterwards anyway :) [11:32] didrocks, the HUD on Alt is madness it's about time they change it to alt-space or something ;-) [11:32] JohnLea, ^ [11:32] * didrocks *sighs* and agrees [11:33] didrocks, joke aside we are not going to patch gtk to allow a "alt" tapping in the renderer, it's a crazy usecase and not something to change in the toolkit, using alt is special enough that they should come with a custom ui like a 2 choices selection, [11:33] * use alt [11:33] * use a custom keybinding [11:34] then the custom keybindings would let you enter a normal keybinding use the gtk widget [11:34] seb128: agreed, I can imagine tons of side-effects in various apps [11:34] hum [11:34] not quite sure how that can be shown, but yeah [11:34] let me look if another value can work though [11:36] didrocks, well it can't in the keybindings section, that would need to go to the behaviour appearance tab imho [11:37] I had some hope in "accel-key" mode that the filtering wasn't here [11:37] but it's not the case [11:37] for accel-mode, the Gtk doc is quite clear: [11:37] "Determines if the edited accelerators are GTK+ accelerators. If they are, consumed modifiers are suppressed, only accelerators accepted by GTK+ are allowed, and the accelerators are rendered in the same way as they are in menus." [11:39] anyway, it doesn't seem reasonable a week from the finale freeze [11:39] rickspencer3: FYI, as you were asking me this morning ^ [11:47] didrocks, rickspencer3, JohnLea: it's crazy that months after ff we are still looking at adding options, we should move the hud to alt-space and get some unity bugs fixed indeed, we already spent way too much time on trying to fix that alt tapping [11:47] indeed->instead [11:48] well, I fully agree with this sentence and Tim did as well (tapping alt for getting the HUD costed a lot and it's still not fully fixed…) [11:49] I think as well any game using alt will be screwed as well (try reset ccsm with pressing "alt") [11:51] didrocks: is it a known bug that fullscreen apps (games) aren't really fullscreen, the unity panel/launcher is always visible? easy to repro by running phoronix-test-suite with some test, possibly a regression in the current unity release [11:52] tjaalton: hum, I didn't notice a bug about it yet, maybe there is one, please poke upstream on their channel directly ;) [11:52] tjaalton: jay and duflu in particular [11:52] didrocks: which one was that? [11:52] the channel [11:53] tjaalton: #ubuntu-unity [11:54] didrocks: ah, of course.. thanks [11:54] yw ;) [12:02] UPDATE: i am on latest unity proper, i didnt see any .crash file for a day, by bluetooth headset needs less pairing (e.g. auto re-connects after loosing connectionm and also after suspend/resume) => i believe you guys are on right track. rock on! [12:03] seb128: hud on alt-space? that currently pops up the window menu for me :) [12:03] asac, hey, good to read such comments, thanks ;-) [12:03] whats the hud? [12:03] asac, control menus from the keyboard, what you get in unity if you tap alt [12:04] ah [12:04] that one stick around now if you do something more common, right? [12:04] i remember this getting in my way a bit [12:04] dont know which use case that was though [12:04] seb128: translated to "tête haute" in French if you didn't notice :) === MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch [12:04] asac, it used to popup on alt based keybinding, like alt-f2 or ws changes [12:04] didrocks, ;-) [12:04] btw, i still have the problem that i bought a new cherry keyboard and it has NO WINDOWS KEY [12:05] didrocks, I didn't, weird translation :p [12:05] what feature am i missing now? [12:05] seb128: oh yeah ... i cannot maximize windows with alt-f10 anymore [12:05] that was one [12:05] asac, most of the nice stuff, like opening the dash or keyboard shortcuts to use the launcher [12:05] seb128: I just noted it because of the shortcut keybinding: "Raccourci pour faire apparaitre l'affichage tête haute" :) [12:05] i.e super 1 launching,focussing your first launcher icon [12:05] the first who can understand wins a price [12:05] hmm [12:06] noticed* [12:06] oh if you tab alt i also start seeing the menu [12:06] asac: maximizing is Super + Up arrow [12:06] asac: tomorrow, it will normally be Control + Super + Up arrow [12:06] didrocks: heh. ok. so i dont have that feature anymore [12:07] why do we need to take this alt- stuff away again? [12:07] asac: tapping alt for triggering an action isn't really supported anywhere [12:08] asac: so you end with the HUD showing in front of a lot of application when you wanted to do alt + [12:08] there are a lot of tricks and workarounds in compiz for that, but it's not fully working and there are still some edge cases [12:08] aha [12:09] if i press on the ubutu button in the launcher, is that the HUD? [12:09] no, that's the dash [12:10] if you tap alt it's the hud [12:10] "Type your Command" ? [12:10] yes [12:10] ah the "smart command console" [12:10] that's basically doing matching on the menus of the focussed app [12:10] the app and the indicators [12:11] wow [12:11] indeed :) [12:11] well at the moment, it will be improved over cycles to be smarter than using only menus, but for this cycle the "commands" source are the menus [12:11] yeah [12:12] is there any less type intensive HUD future? like something innovative that would allow you to reach all avaialable/focussed action through mouse navigation? [12:12] or is this a general keyboard centric UI? [12:12] asac, keyboard for now, voice over time [12:12] asac, not sure about other input methods [12:13] right [12:13] so a freeform interaction thing [12:13] asac, but I assume you rather want gestures for mouse and you don't need the hud ui to use gestures [12:13] lets see if an how i can work that into my daily use [12:13] not sure about that [12:13] i rarely hit menus anyway [12:13] i guess the case with most mouse usage is really selecting text [12:13] asac, well it's handy that it controls indicators [12:13] asac: people reports good thing in application with complex menus, like drawing software, gimp, inkscape… [12:14] seb128: how often do you hit indicators? [12:14] mine are usually sitting happily in the bar :) [12:14] but yeah [12:14] i often try to find the sound thing [12:14] to poke around [12:14] but that is mostly bug induced imo [12:15] asac, the messaging one, if you talk to me I can alt- asac - enter and type my reply to your without using the mouse for example... [12:15]