| === doko_ is now known as doko | ||
| knome | is the release time set, or do we again have to wait until a randomly timed announcement? :) | 09:09 |
|---|---|---|
| cjwatson | knome: we don't set release times | 09:09 |
| knome | ok | 09:10 |
| knome | :) | 09:10 |
| cjwatson | there are too many variables late in the process to make it sensible to commit to a time at higher granularity than a day | 09:10 |
| knome | mm-hmm | 09:10 |
| cjwatson | and we're not going to foster nonsense journalist-has-nothing-better-to-write-about stories like "Ubuntu 12.04 LTS is one and a half hours late" either | 09:11 |
| knome | yeah | 09:11 |
| cjwatson | pitti: should we announce -proposed being open all the time now, do you think? | 09:11 |
| pitti | cjwatson: it certainly sounds like a good time for it | 09:12 |
| pitti | while we don't have an ideal workflow yet, we at least have enough tools to not cause too much pain | 09:12 |
| seb128 | cjwatson, pitti: is it open as a staging or for stacking SRUs? | 09:12 |
| pitti | staging for now, I'd say | 09:12 |
| pitti | well, we can decide to leave any of the upload as an actual SRU, of course | 09:13 |
| pitti | uploads | 09:13 |
| pitti | but still a bit early for that IMHO | 09:13 |
| seb128 | right | 09:13 |
| pitti | cjwatson: do you want to send the announcement, or want me to? | 09:13 |
| cjwatson | mm, my main concern is that if everyone starts using it for everything than our lack of tools for analysing whether a single source can be promoted will screw us horribly | 09:14 |
| cjwatson | pitti: I'd like to, since I wrote the LP patch :) | 09:14 |
| pitti | I wouldn't encourage using it for all uploads, at least not at this point | 09:14 |
| pitti | at this point, stuff like eglibc, the unity stack, LibO, and glib | 09:15 |
| pitti | qt 4.8.1 is a good candidate, too | 09:15 |
| cjwatson | At least two of those are also great examples of why it's problematic. | 09:15 |
| pitti | in a perfect setup, we'd have an arbitrary number of -proposed like pockets, each one for stacking one atomic set of updates | 09:16 |
| pitti | we could call them "bubbles" | 09:16 |
| cjwatson | FSVO perfect ... ;-) | 09:16 |
| pitti | i. e. one bubble for unity, one bubble for a new qt, etc. | 09:16 |
| pitti | they'd automatically migrate once everything is built and installable, and would avoid that problem with unintended building against newer libraries | 09:17 |
| pitti | but that's very far off still | 09:17 |
| cjwatson | I also think that's overengineering TBH | 09:17 |
| cjwatson | and would be impractically confusing to actually use | 09:17 |
| seb128 | pitti, well, you can call those ppas | 09:17 |
| seb128 | just need to be non virtual ones | 09:18 |
| cjwatson | PPAs would be workable if it weren't for the rule about non-virtual PPAs being confined to Canonical employees only | 09:18 |
| pitti | seb128: whatever the implementation is, just concept-wise | 09:18 |
| cjwatson | so in practice, we can't use them | 09:18 |
| pitti | but they are quite clumsy to use, too | 09:18 |
| infinity | pitti: There's no valid reason to send eglibc to -proposed, unless you think people will test it. | 09:18 |
| cjwatson | or we at least can't recommend that the whole project uses them | 09:18 |
| infinity | pitti: Staging in proposed is great to make sure arch skew doesn't break the world, but eglibc has no such issues. | 09:18 |
| pitti | infinity: true that; scratch that one from the list then | 09:19 |
| infinity | And, to be fair, arch skew issues are probably just one apt patch and one sbuild patch away from being mostly a non-issue. | 09:20 |
| infinity | Given that we already have the archive holding onto old arch:all binaries. | 09:20 |
| infinity | They just need to actually sanely get used in all cases. | 09:20 |
| pitti | infinity: sbuild for proper depwaiting instead of failing, you mean? | 09:20 |
| infinity | pitti: Yeah. | 09:20 |
| infinity | pitti: I have the code for sbuild lying around, just needs cleanup after 5 years of dust. | 09:21 |
| pitti | but an apt patch isn't sufficient there | 09:21 |
| pitti | it needs to be in Launchpad | 09:21 |
| infinity | pitti: And the apt patch is for end users actually having installable systems during a skew. | 09:21 |
| pitti | apt will just help upgrades | 09:21 |
| pitti | but not installs / ISO builds | 09:21 |
| cjwatson | I'd argue those are less of an issue anyway. | 09:21 |
| infinity | pitti: apt would fix ISO builds too. Well, not alternates. | 09:21 |
| pitti | i. e. if glib FTBFS on i386 and succeeds on amd64, or vice versa, you immediately render thousands of packages uninstallable | 09:21 |
| pitti | actually, glib is fine | 09:22 |
| pitti | say, gtk | 09:22 |
| infinity | pitti: Yeah, apt dealing properly with that is fixable. | 09:22 |
| cjwatson | ISO build breakages don't cause hundreds of users to get confused and accidentally remove unity or something. | 09:22 |
| pitti | yes, but they are still annoying | 09:22 |
| pitti | same for LibO | 09:22 |
| cjwatson | Sure; but they can also often be dealt with by timing. | 09:22 |
| pitti | as the arm vs. x86 build times are so different | 09:22 |
| cjwatson | It's perfectly OK for us to fix a small number of things at a time. :-) | 09:23 |
| infinity | Anyhow. It's all fixable, now that LP published arch:all packages that are still referenced. (It's not perfect, in that it doesn't take the "i386 is the only thing that failed" case into account, but that's thankfully rare) | 09:23 |
| infinity | Maybe I'll spend some +1 cycles on at least fixing the sbuild dep-wait code. | 09:24 |
| infinity | But looking into apt doing some semblance of "the right thing" for the above would be nice too. | 09:24 |
| cjwatson | Right, as opposed to "I WANT THE NEWEST DAMNIT" | 09:24 |
| infinity | Perhaps as a switch that we can intentionally turn off on buildds, if we prefer skew causing dep-waits instead of installing old packages. | 09:24 |
| mvo | what would apt have to do? if there is a new :all with a strict arch spefific dependency that can not be satisfied, just ignore that package for now - would that be good enough? | 09:24 |
| * mvo hasn't really thought much about the problem yet | 09:25 | |
| infinity | mvo: Basically, yeah. | 09:25 |
| infinity | mvo: Or, in the more general sense, if you have more than one version of an arch:all package, try to satisfy upgrades with the highest, and if that causes removals/failures, try downgrading and resolving again. | 09:26 |
| infinity | mvo: Your path might be shorter, though. | 09:26 |
| mvo | thanks | 09:27 |
| infinity | mvo: Oh and yeah, your path implies just ignoring entirely, when what we really need is "pick the right version". | 09:27 |
| infinity | mvo: So, if your "ignore" was changed instead to "try the next one down", etc. | 09:28 |
| infinity | (Think when someone uploads the same all/any split source package 5 times over 3 days, and it's always in skew for a week, we still want people to get the "latest", whatever that is on their arch) | 09:28 |
| cjwatson | pitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/911251/ ? | 09:31 |
| cjwatson | (and others) | 09:31 |
| mvo | infinity: right | 09:31 |
| cjwatson | oh, I'm missing footnotes, those are to be pending-sru and precise-proposed_probs | 09:31 |
| infinity | I was just about to ask. | 09:32 |
| pitti | cjwatson: I suggest giving some example packages where this is encouraged, like the unity stack or LibO | 09:33 |
| infinity | I'm wary of declating the any/all thing as The Use Case for Proposed, cause if I fix dep-waits in sbuild, it could take years to untrain that behaviour. :P | 09:33 |
| cjwatson | http://paste.ubuntu.com/911253/ | 09:33 |
| infinity | declaring, too. | 09:34 |
| cjwatson | I could trim that back to just "if bad things will happen if your builds are out of sync" | 09:34 |
| cjwatson | or something | 09:34 |
| infinity | Maybe if you mention that this is working around implementation shortcomings in lp-buildd and apt, and won't always be required. I dunno. | 09:34 |
| infinity | I kinda liked the desktop team's "stage GNOME 3.4 in proposed" use case. | 09:35 |
| Laney | Probably mention how to get stuff migrated | 09:35 |
| infinity | Though that could have gotten painful in a hurry with other people also uploading. | 09:35 |
| cjwatson | That was specifically a freeze thing | 09:35 |
| infinity | With no britney to save us. | 09:35 |
| cjwatson | Laney: if developers have to ask we're doing it wrong | 09:35 |
| infinity | Laney: Migration will Just Happen when AAs scan pending. | 09:36 |
| Laney | Well, mention that. | 09:36 |
| infinity | Though, I'm still scared of this whole thing without a britney-alike to save us. | 09:36 |
| Laney | I don't think that's obvious | 09:36 |
| cjwatson | I will do | 09:36 |
| cjwatson | infinity: Ye | 09:36 |
| cjwatson | s | 09:36 |
| infinity | Of course, if there are never build failures in proposed, and we migrate 100% of the packages, we're fine. :P | 09:37 |
| cjwatson | I'm hoping to have a look at that over the next few weeks, but I have some other things to fix first | 09:37 |
| infinity | Maybe the general announcement is premature, then? | 09:37 |
| cjwatson | I think we can probably cope with the volume from here to release | 09:37 |
| infinity | Let people "in the know" test the waters, wait for general announcement until we're sure we can sanely migrate massive messes? | 09:37 |
| cjwatson | GNOME 3.4 - that was a freeze special case though | 09:37 |
| infinity | Sure, GNOME was freeze special, my concern is people starting to do large dep chains like that, though. | 09:38 |
| infinity | And all it takes is one 3rd-party dep in proposed to make that a nightmare. | 09:38 |
| cjwatson | infinity: we could, but I'm a bit worried that not saying anything will result in people making things up | 09:38 |
| pitti | infinity: it worked quite well for unity, too | 09:38 |
| pitti | especially during the freeze | 09:38 |
| cjwatson | which is worse than "this is an experimental process, please come and talk to us if you want to do anything weird" | 09:39 |
| pitti | uploading a new unity stack during the freeze directly to precise would have been a big No-go | 09:39 |
| infinity | cjwatson: True. Okay, maybe it just needs more blink tags. :) | 09:39 |
| * cjwatson rearranges, and rewords to avoid mention of "pocket" jargon as well | 09:45 | |
| cjwatson | How about http://paste.ubuntu.com/911266/ ? | 09:46 |
| infinity | cjwatson: +1 | 09:49 |
| infinity | A++, would read again. | 09:49 |
| infinity | Now, I should get some sleep so I don't miss my flight. | 09:51 |
| infinity | pitti: If I don't manage to find time in the morning, I'll catch up with you tonight (ie: your tomorrow morning) instead. | 09:51 |
| pitti | cjwatson: sounds great to me, thanks! | 10:01 |
| cjwatson | excellent, sent | 10:01 |
| Laney | nice | 10:06 |
| Laney | perhaps we should teach ben about this | 10:06 |
| scott-work | i just subscribed ubuntu-release for bug #971159 | 12:19 |
| ubot2 | Launchpad bug 971159 in ubiquity "[UIFe] new wallpaper for ubiquity on ubuntu studio" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/971159 | 12:19 |
| scott-work | would it be possible to get an exception on it, por favor? | 12:19 |
| scott-work | since this is the background image for the isntallation i do not think translations or documentation needs to be addressed | 12:20 |
| didrocks | cjwatson: thanks for the email. FYI. I had commitment from the compiz guys to not have any more ABI break on compiz (so a huge part of the dep chain list off). However, Nux still have an ABI break, so I'll probably want to use -proposed for 5.10 (next week) for nux/unity/unity-2d | 12:36 |
| cjwatson | right, just an example :) | 12:36 |
| didrocks | cjwatson: well, I guess it's the one making most of the pain, especially when compiz is involved as well (last time, the time that everything build in time took 7 hours of instability, so clearly worth -proposed ;)) | 12:38 |
| didrocks | even if I always pushed when having everything ready to not block on me | 12:38 |
| doko | cjwatson, currently writing an email to u-d-a, but maybe you want to point it out to the +1 team: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20120328-precise.html | 13:26 |
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| cjwatson | doko: you can point it out directly, don't need to go through me :) | 13:33 |
| cjwatson | shudder, that's a lot of failures in main | 13:33 |
| doko | right ... | 13:33 |
| cjwatson | I wonder how much of this is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=659482 | 13:42 |
| ubot2 | Debian bug 659482 in automake "aclocal fails if /usr/share/aclocal does not exist" [Serious,Open] | 13:42 |
| cjwatson | possibly I was just unlucky that that was the first one I hit, but I'll go and fix that anyway | 13:44 |
| doko | cjwatson, let me know, then I'll give back the builds to clear the list | 13:46 |
| * cjwatson does a quick screenscrape to find out | 13:50 | |
| cjwatson | PASS: aclocal9.test | 13:54 |
| cjwatson | PASS: acloca10.test | 13:54 |
| * cjwatson spots an alignment obsessive | 13:54 | |
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| cjwatson | doko: ok, the only victim of that automake change I could find was make-dfsg | 14:18 |
| cjwatson | I'll upload automake1.11 once the local test-build has finished | 14:18 |
| seb128 | cjwatson, doko: the gnome-keyring build failure might go away on a retry, there is an issue with the testsuite, it does hang every n builds, the test rebuild seems to have ran into that bug, it did timeout on a test | 14:22 |
| skaet | scott-work, UIFe is approved, but please send note to the docs & translators to let the know its coming down. They shouldn't be affected, but letting them know is appropriate. | 14:45 |
| skaet | http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20120328-precise.html | 14:49 |
| stgraber | skaet, scott-work: I just pushed that change in ubiquity (revision 5349) so it'll be there in the next release. | 14:55 |
| skaet | thanks stgraber | 14:55 |
| scott-work | thank you both skaet and stgraber :) | 14:58 |
| tsdgeos | hi, i have just created a UIFe for Unity-2d at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-2d/+bug/971603 | 15:03 |
| ubot2 | Launchpad bug 971603 in unity-2d "[unity-2d] UI Freeze exception for HUD redesign to Unity2d" [Undecided,New] | 15:03 |
| tsdgeos | hope did it right, it's my very first time :-) | 15:03 |
| doko | seb128, given back | 15:04 |
| seb128 | doko, thanks | 15:10 |
| jbicha | looks like we'll get a "new" 12.04 default wallpaper after all :) bug 968399 | 15:20 |
| ubot2 | Launchpad bug 968399 in ubuntu-wallpapers "Incremental tweaks to default wallpaper for Ubuntu 12.04 LTS" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/968399 | 15:20 |
| skaet | tsdgeos, can this land by April 5th? | 15:32 |
| skaet | (in Ubuntu archive as part of next drop) | 15:33 |
| tsdgeos | skaet: this can land now if you want | 15:33 |
| tsdgeos | ok | 15:33 |
| tsdgeos | let me rephrase | 15:33 |
| tsdgeos | the code is ready, design approves, and there is a new release plannned for friday i think, so yes it'll be there on the 5th | 15:33 |
| tsdgeos | just need to change the settings in the MR and it'll be all done | 15:34 |
| skaet | tsdgeos, friday is the 6th.... hmm... | 15:34 |
| tsdgeos | maybe i'm wrong about the friday thing | 15:35 |
| skaet | didrocks, when is the next version of unity-2d planned to be included? | 15:35 |
| tsdgeos | skaet: he's not here, is he? | 15:36 |
| skaet | tsdgeos, you're right, hadn't noticed that quit. :/ | 15:36 |
| skaet | tsdgeos, anyhow, its approved as long as we can get it with next drop. which sounds likely. | 15:37 |
| tsdgeos | skaet: so what's the procedure, i confirm with didrocks, come back and you comment in the bug? | 15:37 |
| skaet | tsdgeos, I'll work the timings, etc. with didrocks. | 15:37 |
| tsdgeos | skaet: great :-) | 15:38 |
| skaet | just get it uploaded now. | 15:38 |
| skaet | :) | 15:38 |
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| micahg | pitti: could you please copy 18.0.1025.142~r129054 from ubuntu-security-proposed to lucid and maverick proposed? | 16:24 |
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| phillw | skaet: ping | 18:46 |
| skaet | hiya phillw, ? | 18:46 |
| phillw | hi skaet, kanilot from lubuntu will eb covering for me at the QA meetings for lubuntu, is it in order for him to join this channel? | 18:47 |
| phillw | s/eb/be | 18:47 |
| skaet | phillw, definitely, he's most welcome. | 18:48 |
| skaet | he should also joing the #ubuntu-testing too. :) | 18:48 |
| phillw | thanks, it's always more polite. Getting him on there is easy. But I'm still a n00b on this channel, so prefer to check :) | 18:49 |
| skaet | thanks for letting me know. I'll look for kamilot now too, if I can't spot you and have a question. | 18:49 |
| skaet | :) | 18:49 |
| phillw | hi kanliot, welcome to -release. Do not worry if you do not understand some of the things they chat about - I don't :) They are a nice collection of people who push all the Daily and milestone releases out, including that mammoth session on Ubiquity bug solving prior to beta 2 | 18:57 |
| kanliot | hi! | 18:59 |
| skaet | hi kanliot and welcome. :) | 19:19 |
| kanliot | ty skaet | 19:20 |
| * skaet goes to finish off the moving of the beta2 milestoned bugs and finds them dealt with. | 19:26 | |
| stgraber | skaet: yeah pitti ran a script :) | 19:29 |
| skaet | thanks stgraber, pitti. :) | 19:29 |
| stgraber | skaet: move-milestoned-bugs.py in ~ubuntu-archive/ubuntu-archive-tools/trunk/ | 19:29 |
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| phillw | hi, is their a brain box around who could clear up a bit of confusion? Lubuntu and xubuntu have gone back to non-pae kernels, does this mean 12.04 will run on the likes of Pentium 3's or are they still only able to use 10.04 kernel release? Thanks | 21:15 |
| cjwatson | 12.04 will run on older CPUs provided that it's installed with Lubuntu or Xubuntu, or that the -generic kernel is otherwise installed / kept installed by hand somehow (e.g. on upgrades) | 21:16 |
| cjwatson | I don't happen to remember the full CPU list off the top of my head, but Pentium 3 sounds comfortably within range for -generic | 21:16 |
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| ScottK | (that was me - it's not April 1 anymore) | 22:18 |
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