[00:00] TheMuso: you still around? [00:00] joanie: Yup. [00:00] help me brainstorm because I need to hack(ish) around unity-greeter for flat review [00:01] Ok I'll do what I can... [00:01] the problem seems to be related to the lack of window manager and how Orca draws flat review [00:01] When Orca draws the line it's a GtkWindow [00:01] Yup, with you so far. [00:01] and Orca just keeps it on top [00:01] Ah. [00:01] I was wondering how that was done. [00:01] well, for some reason unity-greeter doesn't like this [00:02] Right. [00:02] perhaps because it doesn't have a window manager [00:02] It doesn't. [00:02] so combine that with the bug I filed earlier [00:02] it gives focus back to whatever [00:02] It only does the bare minimum to make sure shutdown/restart dialogs are on top and get focus. [00:02] and events stop [00:02] Yup. [00:02] so the "solution" (not exactly, but....) is "don't draw the outline" [00:03] so I need to detect this condition [00:03] in looking at the registry [00:03] when unity-greeter is running there are two accessible applications: [00:03] unity-greeter and Orca [00:03] Right. One thing I was trying to do recently was probe the unity-greeter X display to see what properties were set, to see if such a property was set that we could check for. [00:03] a non-hack would be awesme [00:03] awesome too :) [00:03] However I was not able to do so from a terminal with xprop etc. [00:03] in the meantime, with 3.4.1 approaching [00:04] when I look at any "normal" environment -- even minimal, there are bunches more than 2 apps counting Orca [00:04] Right. [00:04] what other apps might show up in unity-greeter [00:05] I'm thinking if there are not at least three (or insert number here) apps, do flat review but don't draw the rectangle [00:05] Only onboard, but thats not likely to be running at the same time as orca. [00:05] because I see no way to ask "what's your window manager?" [00:05] I will google more [00:06] and to be honest, most Orca users cannot see the underline anyway [00:06] Ok. [00:06] Yup [00:06] so I'm not all that worried if my hack is too extreme [00:06] And flat review is not likely to be used in the greeter. [00:06] and fails to draw a line that no one is going to see [00:07] Attila tried it [00:07] You're usually only there to log in/ [00:07] He would. : [00:07] and promptly discovered his system wouldn't respond [00:07] :) [00:07] Attila is my FAVORITE user. [00:07] seriously [00:07] I can understand that yeah. [00:07] he's like having an employee [00:07] he tests and tries all sorts of stuff [00:07] and gives crazy amounts of debug output [00:07] and hacks [00:07] and [00:08] ok but back to my brainstorm [00:08] you ok with this as a solution? [00:08] Ypu I know what you mean, he is raising a lot of issues on the Ubuntu a11y list. At least he files bugs as well. [00:08] Works for me. [00:08] Maybe longer term we could add an X property or some such to unity-greeter that you could check for. [00:08] * joanie nods [00:09] first I'm going to see if I can figure out how Gtk+ sends those hints [00:09] Ok. [00:18] oh hi gdk method [00:18] I might not have to hack [00:18] * joanie tries [01:41] I love introspection bugs :-/ [01:41] anyhoo, TheMuso at least in Fedora, and not counting the introspection bug I'm about to search for and file.... [01:42] I can use Gdk to get the window manager's name [01:42] so that should be fine for the flat review unity-greeter bug [01:42] (in theory) [01:42] Ok theories are good. [01:42] yeah ;) [01:43] I guess I should make sure it doesn't blow up in ubuntu [01:45] got 'Metacity'. /me tries in greeter [02:43] AlanBell: Just wanted to let you know for future reference, 12.04 did not work.. still no 3D support for that Intel chip. [03:16] TheMuso: fixed. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673397 [03:16] Gnome bug 673397 in general "Using flat review while in Unity Greeter makes Orca stop presenting screen contents." [Normal,Resolved: fixed] [03:18] TheMuso: While testing I noticed that there are some items in the unity-greeter that are apparently not being seen by Orca's flat review. At some point down the road I can look into that. BUT, I would bet cold, hard cash that it ain't an Orca bug. And unlike the thing I just fixed, I cannot hack objects which are not correctly reporting their location or existence into objects which are. ;) [03:45] joanie: Yeah there are GTK widgets at the core of unity-greeter, but some work has been done to make them look somewhat different, so I dare say there is something that changes the behavior of what originally is a standard GTK widget. [12:19] hi all [12:19] wondering if anyone is available to have a look at something we're working on? [14:29] hi yaili_ [14:29] whats up? [14:30] AlanBell: hi! [14:31] are you going to UDS? [14:31] AlanBell: no [14:31] :( [14:34] AlanBell: maybe next time :) [14:34] AlanBell: do you have a couple of minutes to have a look at a test page? [14:34] sure [14:35] so we're looking into the hover on links on ubuntu.com, and just putting together as many variations we can think of [14:35] here it is so far http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46219249/links/index.html [14:35] your thoughts would be very welcome [14:37] not sure I like the various underlines vanishing on hover [14:38] dotted underline is often used to indicate there is an on-hover tooltip so I wouldn't use that for an actual link [14:39] http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hattrick/ [14:44] yaili_: and baconipsum is great :) [14:44] AlanBell: indeed [14:45] AlanBell: I like how bold doesn't rely on colour to indicate there's a difference, but not sure it's easy to understand [14:47] yeah, they don't look like links to me, plus what if you want to actually use *bold* for something in a run of text with bold links [14:47] bold Orange is OK [14:49] AlanBell: true [14:49] AlanBell: what if it was underlined and changed colour on hover? [14:49] AlanBell: do you think the links being simply orange is enough? [14:54] I think people would work it out either way [14:54] personally I am fine with most of the options, arguably the orange with tinted background is low contrast, but only when you are actually hovering over it [14:55] I think orange links is fine, even on a monochrome display you can see the difference between Orange and black pretty easily [14:56] cool [14:56] we've had complaints about not having a hover style [14:57] yeah, I see it is pretty flat on the live site with no hover style [15:13] AlanBell: yeah, so we kind of need to fix that