[00:00] <joanie> TheMuso: you still around?
[00:00] <TheMuso> joanie: Yup.
[00:00] <joanie> help me brainstorm because I need to hack(ish) around unity-greeter for flat review
[00:01] <TheMuso> Ok I'll do what I can...
[00:01] <joanie> the problem seems to be related to the lack of window manager and how Orca draws flat review 
[00:01] <joanie> When Orca draws the line it's a GtkWindow
[00:01] <TheMuso> Yup, with you so far.
[00:01] <joanie> and Orca just keeps it on top
[00:01] <TheMuso> Ah.
[00:01] <TheMuso> I was wondering how that was done.
[00:01] <joanie> well, for some reason unity-greeter doesn't like this
[00:02] <TheMuso> Right.
[00:02] <joanie> perhaps because it doesn't have a window manager
[00:02] <TheMuso> It doesn't.
[00:02] <joanie> so combine that with the bug I filed earlier
[00:02] <joanie> it gives focus back to whatever
[00:02] <TheMuso> It only does the bare minimum to make sure shutdown/restart dialogs are on top and get focus.
[00:02] <joanie> and events stop
[00:02] <TheMuso> Yup.
[00:02] <joanie> so the "solution" (not exactly, but....) is "don't draw the outline"
[00:03] <joanie> so I need to detect this condition
[00:03] <joanie> in looking at the registry
[00:03] <joanie> when unity-greeter is running there are two accessible applications:
[00:03] <joanie> unity-greeter and Orca
[00:03] <TheMuso> Right. One thing I was trying to do recently was probe the unity-greeter X display to see what properties were set, to see if such a property was set that we could check for.
[00:03] <joanie> a non-hack would be awesme
[00:03] <joanie> awesome too :)
[00:03] <TheMuso> However I was not able to do so from a terminal with xprop etc.
[00:03] <joanie> in the meantime, with 3.4.1 approaching
[00:04] <joanie> when I look at any "normal" environment -- even minimal, there are bunches more than 2 apps counting Orca
[00:04] <TheMuso> Right.
[00:04] <joanie> what other apps might show up in unity-greeter
[00:05] <joanie> I'm thinking if there are not at least three (or insert number here) apps, do flat review but don't draw the rectangle
[00:05] <TheMuso> Only onboard, but thats not likely to be running at the same time as orca.
[00:05] <joanie> because I see no way to ask "what's your window manager?"
[00:05] <joanie> I will google more
[00:06] <joanie> and to be honest, most Orca users cannot see the underline anyway
[00:06] <TheMuso> Ok.
[00:06] <TheMuso> Yup
[00:06] <joanie> so I'm not all that worried if my hack is too extreme
[00:06] <TheMuso> And flat review is not likely to be used in the greeter.
[00:06] <joanie> and fails to draw a line that no one is going to see
[00:07] <joanie> Attila tried it
[00:07] <TheMuso> You're usually only there to log in/
[00:07] <TheMuso> He would. :
[00:07] <joanie> and promptly discovered his system wouldn't respond
[00:07] <TheMuso> :)
[00:07] <joanie> Attila is my FAVORITE user.
[00:07] <joanie> seriously
[00:07] <TheMuso> I can understand that yeah.
[00:07] <joanie> he's like having an employee
[00:07] <joanie> he tests and tries all sorts of stuff
[00:07] <joanie> and gives crazy amounts of debug output
[00:07] <joanie> and hacks
[00:07] <joanie> and
[00:08] <joanie> ok but back to my brainstorm
[00:08] <joanie> you ok with this as a solution?
[00:08] <TheMuso> Ypu I know what you mean, he is raising a lot of issues on the Ubuntu a11y list. At least he files bugs as well.
[00:08] <TheMuso> Works for me.
[00:08] <TheMuso> Maybe longer term we could add an X property or some such to unity-greeter that you could check for.
[00:08]  * joanie nods
[00:09] <joanie> first I'm going to see if I can figure out how Gtk+ sends those hints
[00:09] <TheMuso> Ok.
[00:18] <joanie> oh hi gdk method
[00:18] <joanie> I might not have to hack
[00:18]  * joanie tries
[01:41] <joanie> I love introspection bugs :-/
[01:41] <joanie> anyhoo, TheMuso at least in Fedora, and not counting the introspection bug I'm about to search for and file....
[01:42] <joanie> I can use Gdk to get the window manager's name
[01:42] <joanie> so that should be fine for the flat review unity-greeter bug
[01:42] <joanie> (in theory)
[01:42] <TheMuso> Ok theories are good.
[01:42] <joanie> yeah ;)
[01:43] <joanie> I guess I should make sure it doesn't blow up in ubuntu
[01:45] <joanie> got 'Metacity'. /me tries in greeter
[02:43] <tallboy_2> AlanBell:  Just wanted to let you know for future reference, 12.04 did not work.. still no 3D support for that Intel chip.  
[03:16] <joanie> TheMuso: fixed. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673397
[03:16] <ubot2> Gnome bug 673397 in general "Using flat review while in Unity Greeter makes Orca stop presenting screen contents." [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
[03:18] <joanie> TheMuso: While testing I noticed that there are some items in the unity-greeter that are apparently not being seen by Orca's flat review. At some point down the road I can look into that. BUT, I would bet cold, hard cash that it ain't an Orca bug. And unlike the thing I just fixed, I cannot hack objects which are not correctly reporting their location or existence into objects which are. ;)
[03:45] <TheMuso> joanie: Yeah there are GTK widgets at the core of unity-greeter, but some work has been done to make them look somewhat different, so I dare say there is something that changes the behavior of what originally is a standard GTK widget.
[12:19] <yaili_> hi all
[12:19] <yaili_> wondering if anyone is available to have a look at something we're working on?
[14:29] <AlanBell> hi yaili_ 
[14:29] <AlanBell> whats up?
[14:30] <yaili_> AlanBell: hi!
[14:31] <AlanBell> are you going to UDS?
[14:31] <yaili_> AlanBell: no
[14:31] <AlanBell> :(
[14:34] <yaili_> AlanBell: maybe next time :)
[14:34] <yaili_> AlanBell: do you have a couple of minutes to have a look at a test page?
[14:34] <AlanBell> sure
[14:35] <yaili_> so we're looking into the hover on links on ubuntu.com, and just putting together as many variations we can think of
[14:35] <yaili_> here it is so far http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46219249/links/index.html
[14:35] <yaili_> your thoughts would be very welcome
[14:37] <AlanBell> not sure I like the various underlines vanishing on hover
[14:38] <AlanBell> dotted underline is often used to indicate there is an on-hover tooltip so I wouldn't use that for an actual link
[14:39] <AlanBell> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hattrick/
[14:44] <AlanBell> yaili_: and baconipsum is great :)
[14:44] <yaili_> AlanBell: indeed
[14:45] <yaili_> AlanBell: I like how bold doesn't rely on colour to indicate there's a difference, but not sure it's easy to understand
[14:47] <AlanBell> yeah, they don't look like links to me, plus what if you want to actually use *bold* for something in a run of text with bold links
[14:47] <AlanBell> bold Orange is OK
[14:49] <yaili_> AlanBell: true
[14:49] <yaili_> AlanBell: what if it was underlined and changed colour on hover?
[14:49] <yaili_> AlanBell: do you think the links being simply orange is enough?
[14:54] <AlanBell> I think people would work it out either way
[14:54] <AlanBell> personally I am fine with most of the options, arguably the orange with tinted background is low contrast, but only when you are actually hovering over it
[14:55] <AlanBell> I think orange links is fine, even on a monochrome display you can see the difference between Orange and black pretty easily
[14:56] <yaili_> cool
[14:56] <yaili_> we've had complaints about not having a hover style
[14:57] <AlanBell> yeah, I see it is pretty flat on the live site with no hover style
[15:13] <yaili_> AlanBell: yeah, so we kind of need to fix that