[15:48]  * phillipsjk delegates reading the TOS to his cat.
[16:01] <czajkowski> aloha
[16:10] <Mokurai> Are we here yet?
[16:31] <Effenberg0x0> Hi, wasn't the CC meeting today/1600UTC?
[16:33] <dholbach> 17 UTC
[16:33] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[16:35] <Effenberg0x0> AH, sorry... I'm  another one affected by the Google Agenda DTS bug :\
[16:38] <dholbach> yeah, you're not alone
[17:00] <beuno> o/
[17:02] <czajkowski> pleia2: ping
[17:02] <pleia2> o/
[17:03] <czajkowski> shall we start?
[17:03] <pleia2> yep
[17:03] <czajkowski> #startmeeting
[17:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Apr  5 17:03:23 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[17:03] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:03] <czajkowski> aloha and welcome to the CC meeting
[17:03] <czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:03] <czajkowski> todays agenda
[17:04] <czajkowski> dpic: ping
[17:04] <dholbach> o/
[17:04] <dpic> hi
[17:04] <czajkowski> #topic Bug 1
[17:04] <czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bug1
[17:05] <czajkowski> dpic: care to talk to us regarding your agenda item?
[17:05] <dpic> So, bug #1 is a bit vague because it is specific to microsoft. that means apple could solve it for us
[17:05] <dpic> i don't think that was the intention
[17:05] <dpic> so i drafted this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bug1
[17:05] <mog> dpic, or that ubuntu could solve the problem via equally non-free software
[17:06] <dpic> it cites the ubuntu philosophy and commitment to making floss available
[17:07] <beuno> that's interesting
[17:07] <dpic> i don't think ubuntu would be completely proprietary ever, but it does make sense to shift the conversation to proprietary software and away from windows
[17:08] <dpic> because if Apple suddenly took over the world, we would have less free software but bug #1 would technically be solved
[17:08] <dpic> ok, i'll refer to it as "the bug" or "#1" from now on to avoid the bot haha
[17:09] <mog> dpic, given how ubuntu already integrates non free software into the core distro i don't think its outlandish to say it would become more proprietary
[17:09] <sabdfl> hello hello
[17:09] <dpic> sabdfl: hello there
[17:09] <dholbach> it's a shame LP is timing out right now, because I'd love to read the bug description and everything again
[17:09] <dpic> sabdfl: do you have logs or shall i pastebin?
[17:09] <sabdfl> thanks dpic, yes please
[17:09] <pleia2> I pastebined them
[17:09] <dpic> dholbach: i can pastebin it if you like
[17:10] <pleia2> http://paste.ubuntu.com/916280/
[17:10] <dpic> pleia2: great, thanks
[17:10] <dholbach> dpic, ah no, now it opened
[17:11] <dpic> this is the buf now dholbach http://paste.ubuntu.com/916281/
[17:11] <dpic> ah, okay [=
[17:11] <sabdfl> i think it would be a mistake to turn bug 1 from tease to dogma
[17:11] <sabdfl> and i think it would be moving the goal posts to edit it now
[17:12] <dpic> sabdfl: interesting point.
[17:12] <mog> sabdfl, so ubuntu doesnt stand for expanding free software but was just teasing?
[17:12] <sabdfl> if we get too focused on it, we end up in impossible conversations
[17:12] <dpic> mog: i think that wasn't the point
[17:12] <sabdfl> like what the meaning of proprietary is
[17:12] <dpic> sabdfl: true
[17:12] <sabdfl> and mog's point
[17:12] <pleia2> I've always seen bug #1 to be a bit tongue in cheek
[17:12] <sabdfl> exactly, it was a tease, and frankly one i regret for being a smallminded way to start
[17:13] <sabdfl> we don't win by being smallminded
[17:13] <dpic> yes
[17:13] <sabdfl> nor do we win by being pedantic
[17:13] <sabdfl> and arguing about the wording of a smallminded tease sounds like the third or fourth century of a successful religion, not what we need to be now ;)
[17:13] <dpic> i think the goalposts deserve shifting, but is there a way this bug could be used for that without running into those concerns?
[17:14] <sabdfl> let sleeping dogs lie, is my view
[17:14] <beuno> if we close that bug, I think we can celebrate. If someone else is now dominating, well, we can always file a new bug  ;)
[17:14] <sabdfl> if the cc feels it needs changing, fine, but i'd be happy to say 'let's focus on more meaningful discussions'
[17:14] <dpic> beuno: there will only be one (bug) #1!
[17:14] <sabdfl> indeed. bug 1000000 is coming up though ;)
[17:15] <sabdfl> thank you, ubottu
[17:15] <dpic> haha
[17:15] <dholbach> sabdfl, then we'd better be quick :)
[17:15] <sabdfl> can we thank those who raised it, and move on?
[17:15] <beuno> yeah, I'm happy to leave it and look forward to closing it
[17:15] <czajkowski> sounds like a great idea
[17:15] <dholbach> yes, same here
[17:15] <czajkowski> moving on
[17:15] <beuno> am happy we're even considering it needs broadening, makes it look smaller!
[17:15] <pleia2> agreed
[17:16] <czajkowski> #topic Asia/Oceania Regional Membership Board Catch up
[17:16] <czajkowski> anyone here from the A/O Board?
[17:16] <pleia2> I haven't gotten replies from any A/O folks about attending today, but it's the middle of the night for them
[17:16] <pleia2> (3AM in Sydney, and it goes from there)
[17:16] <beuno> good, so lifeless should be awake  :p
[17:17] <pleia2> hah :)
[17:17] <czajkowski> beuno: *grin* true!
[17:17] <dholbach> damn, I should've considered that when I set up the schedule :/
[17:17] <czajkowski> do we have any other items to discuss ?
[17:17] <czajkowski> dholbach: unless you can move timezones it's not your fault :)
[17:19] <dholbach> I have a quick one - when will we move over the Teams page? :)
[17:20] <czajkowski> #topic move over teams page
[17:20] <sabdfl> sooner rather than later
[17:20] <sabdfl> it's already better than what went before, isn't it?
[17:20] <czajkowski> nods it is
[17:20] <czajkowski> and we've merged two columns into one to create more room
[17:20] <pleia2> great
[17:20] <pleia2> I think we go live with it now, it'll always need tending and updates, it's fine for now
[17:20] <czajkowski> if people want to add their team information to it when it's up they can
[17:20] <czajkowski> pleia2: exactly
[17:21] <dholbach> who wants to do the honours?
[17:21] <czajkowski> I can copy over the /temp version to live version this evening
[17:21] <pleia2> thanks czajkowski :)
[17:21] <dholbach> great
[17:21] <czajkowski> #action czajkowski to update the /teams page with working draft
[17:21] <meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski to update the /teams page with working draft
[17:22] <czajkowski> anything else ? anyone ?
[17:23] <sabdfl> merged code of conduct 2.0
[17:23] <czajkowski> #topic merged code of conduct 2.0
[17:24] <sabdfl> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/v2-draft/changes
[17:24] <sabdfl> by way of background
[17:25] <sabdfl> we were looking at how to build awareness of the leadership coc
[17:25] <sabdfl> and how to make it possible for people to sign / support that
[17:25] <sabdfl> as part of our general review of governance and leadership in ubuntu
[17:25] <sabdfl> and thought it might be better to merge the leadership value statement into the normal coc
[17:25] <sabdfl> on the grounds that all of us have opportunities for leadership
[17:26] <sabdfl> and we should be clear throughout the community what we think makes for good leadership
[17:26] <sabdfl> so, (amber?) set about merging them, i crunched it down a few tens of lines, and others have made suggestions
[17:26] <sabdfl> along the way, it made sense to integrate the diversity statement
[17:26] <sabdfl> and the link is where we stand with a current draft Code of Conduct 2.0
[17:27] <sabdfl> there is some email from the CC on it which i confess to having failed to parse and integrate
[17:27] <dholbach> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/v2-draft/view/head:/MergedCodeOfConduct.txt is the actual changed document
[17:27] <sabdfl> should we take comments and feedback here?
[17:27] <dholbach> sure
[17:28] <czajkowski> I think it's good we've addressed peoples issues that they couldnt sign a LCoC but with it being addressed now in the CoC this  helps
[17:29] <dholbach> when I googled an expression used in the CoC I was pleasantly surprised to see many other communities who adopted it :)
[17:30] <bkerensa> There is talk of Mozilla adopting portions of the Ubuntu CoC
[17:30] <sabdfl> they might want to get a heads-up on this 2.0, and we could take suggestions from them
[17:30] <sabdfl> i tried to generalise it but.... it was difficult
[17:31] <dholbach> I'm very happy with the new CoC - the only bit I think we could improve is the BDFL bit - it might need some clarification, particularly for new contributors
[17:31] <sabdfl> dholbach, i've tried to demystify the BDFL reference
[17:31] <dholbach> sabdfl, they're aware - czajkowski and I are in conversations
[17:31] <sabdfl> ok
[17:33] <czajkowski> any further comments on the CoC V 2.0 ?
[17:34] <czajkowski> should we blog this
[17:34] <czajkowski> post to mailing lists?
[17:34] <czajkowski> to let people know of this change and when should we do it ?
[17:35] <sabdfl> i'm going to work through the CC comments now and make tweaks
[17:35] <sabdfl> dholbach said the latter portion felt a bit too heavy on the delegation mechanics
[17:36] <czajkowski> I think that was in reference to the Leadership part no? 'Their teams' ?
[17:36] <dholbach> ah yes - sabdfl, you're right - I missed that when reviewing the thread again
[17:38] <dholbach> while it is important to explain leaders what good leadership is and how delegation works, a casual Ubuntu contributor might feel a bit less free to jump in and pioneer in a given area
[17:38] <dholbach> ... after reading a few paragraphs about delegated powers and delegated responsibilities
[17:38] <dholbach> I'm not sure if this is also a concern of yours
[17:41]  * beuno re-reads
[17:41] <sabdfl> there are a couple of things i really wanted to convey
[17:42] <sabdfl> this is as much about being a leader as it is about being lead
[17:42] <sabdfl> i think it's important we avoid some of the post-decision carping that is toxic in other communities
[17:42] <sabdfl> you know the story:
[17:42] <sabdfl>  * there is a hard decision to be taken ("Upstart vs Systemd")
[17:43] <sabdfl>  * someone steps up to do the analysis and the work
[17:43] <sabdfl>  * they take a decision and do a ton of work tomake it real
[17:43] <sabdfl>  * then others who weren't around jump in and say it's all wrong
[17:43] <sabdfl>  * so it all goes on hold for three years
[17:43] <sabdfl>  * people resign in frustration
[17:44] <sabdfl>  * then someone just does it that way anyway
[17:44] <sabdfl> let's not go there
[17:44] <dholbach> totally agreed
[17:44] <sabdfl> so i was being forceful about the importance of getting the delegation right (top down delegation, bottom up confirmation)
[17:44] <czajkowski> +1
[17:44] <sabdfl> and the importance of letting the folk do the work they have taken on
[17:45] <sabdfl> recognising the occasional need to escalate
[17:45] <sabdfl> all of that becomes a little longwinded
[17:45] <sabdfl> i'll give it another spin
[17:45] <sabdfl> i think that covers all the feedback
[17:46] <sabdfl> will push a few more commits up, then am happy for blogging and feedback
[17:46] <sabdfl> could we identify someone to act as a central taker of feedback?
[17:46] <sabdfl> so we can consider, say, one wiki page of feedback rather than a long thread?
[17:46] <czajkowski> nods makes sense to keep the feedback in one place
[17:46] <dholbach> maybe we can blog about it on the fridge and collect replies there?
[17:46] <czajkowski> rather than here on a ml then another chunk elsewhere
[17:47] <sabdfl> +1
[17:47] <dholbach> ...as we don't really have a general purpose mailing list
[17:47] <czajkowski> sabdfl: I could collect any feedback mailed to my @ubuntu.com address
[17:47] <czajkowski> and put it on a wiki page for us to review
[17:47] <beuno> +1
[17:47] <sabdfl> perfect
[17:47] <czajkowski> grand job
[17:47] <dholbach> yes, I'm quite happy with it as well :)
[17:49] <czajkowski> ok are we done folks ?
[17:49]  * dholbach is
[17:49]  * beuno too
[17:50] <czajkowski> right
[17:50] <czajkowski> #endmeeting
[17:50] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Apr  5 17:50:39 2012 UTC.
[17:50] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-05-17.03.moin.txt
[17:50] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-05-17.03.html
[17:50] <czajkowski> thanks for coming folks
[17:50] <czajkowski> got a lot done today
[17:50] <beuno> o/
[17:50] <dholbach> thanks everyone :)