[05:54]  * holstein is -1 on autoplay
[05:54] <holstein> but i dont really care enough to be a hard-on about it
[14:26] <len_> holstein, I think we figured that no one has noticed that it hasn't worked for the last cycle... the only reason I noticed was from looking at the setup, not trying to get it to work. No body has missed it.
[14:28] <len_> In any case we are just defaulting it off. The function is still there if someone wants to enable it.
[14:30] <len_> Something had to be done because it was turned on, but the apps it pointed to aren't shipped ;-)
[14:37] <len_> Does anyone know that much about run levels? ubuntu (and others) seem to use RL 0,1,2,6. Slackware used to use 3 for X station and 2 for cli only. I would like US to use 3 for soft record mode and 4 for hard record mode. (next cycle stuff here)
[14:39] <len_> Soft record mode means networking on still, but most services off. This would be to support workflows that need the net... netjack, streaming, etc.
[14:41] <astraljava> len_: Debian (and derivatives) have defaulted to rc2
[14:41] <len_> Hard record mode would get rid of everything possible ;-) including networking.
[14:41] <len_> Yup, that was what I said, but the rl 345 are still supported, right now they just clone rl2
[14:42] <len_> astraljava, the idea of RLs at all is to allow what we want to do... so why not use it?
[14:43] <astraljava> Yes of course. Well, it's something to think about. I'd want especially TheMuso's and micahg's thoughts on the matter.
[14:44] <len_> RL, would only be part of the solution though, as there are lots of things that get started by the session that might be better turned off as well for recording. I think it would take lots of testing to make sure its right though.
[14:45] <astraljava> len_: Yep, that's true. But I've also sometimes wondered about utilizing those, just never had the time to really try it out.
[14:46] <len_> The main problem with changing RL is it needs to be SU root. It would be a pain to have to password it every time. But I notice the software update doesn't ask for password any more. So the policykit must have a way of dealing with that.
[14:48] <len_> astraljava, I would like to take a list from ps and have someone who knows what all those processes are tell us which we can turn off :P
[14:49] <len_> and how.
[14:50] <len_> There is a big difference between xubuntu and some of the distros for old computers even.
[14:50] <len_> There is a lot of stuff running that doesn't really need to be there.
[14:51] <astraljava> len_: True, I'd say we should dedicate a cycle for such matters, to really tweak the distro towards the lower latency and stability.
[14:52] <astraljava> Ok, 2nd period of the hockey game --> bbl
[14:52] <len_> There is a commandline utility for setting up run levels, I think ubuntu server comes with it.
[14:54] <len_> I will look. I don't expect any answers just now then... enjoy the game... I'll put some more thoughts down. anyone is free to add theirs ... just brain storming for next cycle.
[15:02] <len_> I think, when I next work on my workflow project, I will try adding a record mode button that changes RL and allows for some other things too. I realize I will also need a utility (GUI) to set up the configuration for it.
[15:06] <len_> My opinion is that no work will happen towards getting a good record mode until there is first the software to change things on the fly. 
[15:40] <ailo> Tweaking the desktop won't do much to reduce latency or make performance more reliable
[15:40] <ailo> Maybe nothing at all
[15:40] <ailo> The only thing you can do is to try save RAM for older machines
[15:42] <ailo> Well, machines that have less than 2 GB of RAM
[15:44] <ailo> The difference in audio performance, comparing the most basic type of desktop with a modern one that needs graphic acceleration, there's no difference at all
[15:44] <ailo> Except for when people have hardware issues
[15:45] <ailo> If there are things running that take a lot of hard drive resources, those should probably be disabled
[15:47] <ailo> To save RAM memory, you don't want to use a recent Firefox or Chrome
[15:47] <ailo> Already there, you get problems
[15:48] <ailo> I think automatic updates should be disabled by default
[15:48] <ailo> And anything that might pop up automatically
[15:49] <ailo> Those are things you don't want to appear when you're in the middle of a recording session
[15:53] <ailo> I guess one could think about how to make a "clean" experience for the user.
[15:54] <ailo> I much more prefer to think about the user approach, and not save any resources to make it a nice experience
[15:55] <ailo> I mean, not save resources, but just focus on making it a nice experience for the user
[15:55] <ailo> It's 2012 after all
[15:57] <ailo> len_: ScottL: I'm just wondering what this "record mode" is about. I mean, is there a problem that needs to be solved? And how does the "record mode" solve the problem?
[15:58] <ailo> I don't see anything affecting performance on a standard Ubuntu install, so I don't think there's anything noticable on Ubuntu Studio either
[16:21] <len_> ailo, having things "pop up" unexpectedly is the major thing. There are some non-user space kinds of things that do this like cron. and some user space things too like Netman and update.I think those are the major things. There are lots of systems that are only 1G ram and even something 1 year old (maybe new) has pulse audio running as much as 30% cpu in use and 15% at rest.
[16:22] <len_> PA is RL dependent and so is cron
[16:26] <len_> wireless net can be a problem as the netman scans for systems every once in a while. But there are some workflows where it is needed.
[16:27] <len_> Wired net is pretty stable and even a dhcp lease renew probably won't hurt things, but I have heard at least one person say networking should be turned off while recording.
[16:29] <len_> some of this stuff is not what I personally need, but what some user has mentioned. Once there is a capability for stopping some things for recording, it makes sense to be able to make the switch complete.
[16:34] <len_> I think there is some agreement that we do need a system config tool of some sort. This is an extension of that.
[16:36] <len_> Servers of any type don't really belong on an audio machine... but some of us need the same machine to be multi use. So record mode can fix that too.
[17:16] <ScottL> ailo, it was just an idea, nothing in particular about it really
[17:38] <ailo> len_: As far as networking goes, I don't think it has been a problem for anyone for a long time. It used to be, but not anymore. It would be best to get valid confirmation on that.
[17:40] <ailo> It's not easy slimming down RAM usage
[17:40] <ailo> It would mean no Firefox or Thunderbird
[17:40] <ailo> I say, have 2GB as a limit
[17:40] <ailo> After all, any recent machine -4 years old has at least that usually
[17:40] <ailo> Except for netbooks perhaps
[17:42] <ailo> I would like to have confirmation on any of those issues
[17:43] <ailo> Not sure there are any problems at all, except for hardware issues
[17:48] <ailo> Using XFCE over Unity-2D, or Gnome classic is probably not saving much RAM either
[17:51] <astraljava> Yeah, but then who would keep T-bird or FF open while doing something memory-hogging activities?
[17:52] <ailo> As I see it, those are the most memory consuming applications
[17:52] <ailo> Other things are trivial
[17:52] <astraljava> Anything Java, and you're screwed.
[17:55] <ailo> What is the goal? To make a distro that suits the year 2005, or the present? It feels like much concern is taken for issues that no longer are valid, cause they've either been fixed, or computers have evolved since then
[17:57] <ailo> astraljava: Did you fix the volume applet thing?
[17:57] <ailo> I thought I read something about that..
[17:58] <astraljava> Only in half. I switched it to use pavucontrol from Sound Settings..., but the unmute problem is still wide open.
[17:58] <ailo> astraljava: unmute?
[17:58] <astraljava> The fix Lionel did for that is not 100% fool-proof, didn't work for me.
[17:59] <ailo> Great work though. That, and having the theme and the menu in place, the release will feel pretty decent
[17:59] <ailo> astraljava: What is the problem with unmuting exactly? I've missed that part
[18:00] <astraljava> ailo: Check out bug #883485
[18:00] <astraljava> For that I opened bug #972781 for Studio.
[18:01] <astraljava> The patch only works so that the indicator flashes accordingly, but sound isn't audible with unmute.
[18:01] <astraljava> You can even see the little button in pavucontrol flash lightly, but still no go.
[18:02] <ailo> astraljava: If I read correctly, the volume control still only controls alsa, not PA, so that's the reason for the bugginess
[18:03] <astraljava> ailo: Yeah. But I haven't had time to tweak the patch further, yet. I'll try to over the rest of the holidays, but I have to pack also, so I'm not sure whether I'll finish it in time or not.
[18:05] <ailo> astraljava: I spoke too soon. I thought it was a new bug, post the PA hack
[18:06] <ailo> The first bug, that is
[18:06] <ailo> Does the unmute cause any problems, or is it just that the button isn't doing anything?
[18:07] <astraljava> It's not doing anything, but it is a grave usability bug IMNSHO.
[18:10] <ailo> As long as it's not messing things up :P. I'm thrilled that pavu control is used. Looking forward to seeing peoples reactions on the release
[18:10] <ailo> Of course, it's not nice to have disfunctional controls
[18:13] <astraljava> It's really not.
[18:49] <len-1204> some hardware has a mute and some doesn't. Volume to 0 (if you play guitar) or infinity (if you do sound) should be pretty universal.
[18:50] <len-1204> It does mean remembering the set level for unmute...
[19:05] <ailo> len-1204: The mute shouldn't touch the hardware. Only PA
[19:06] <ailo> That said, I'm not perfectly sure how PA handles it, but it should always mute no matter what
[19:31] <len-1204> ailo, thats different PA should be able to just cut the feed... just bitbucket the stream.
[19:32] <ailo> Yeah
[19:34] <len-1204> I'm not sure it does though...nope, PA mutes t
[19:34] <len-1204> the device.
[19:35] <len-1204> Works on my HDA machine... won't work with a D66 for example.
[19:36] <ailo> Works for me
[19:36] <ailo> But not using the controls that come with Ubuntu Studio / Xubuntu
[19:36] <ailo> The mixer that comes with Ubuntu doesn't have a "mute" button. Only "On"
[19:37] <ailo> Toggling "On" will mute audio for d-66
[19:38] <ailo> So, PA should mute any device. Question is, what is the mute button really doing?
[19:38] <len-1204> Have to look at what it does to the hardware. The d66 doesn't have a mute setting, except for the monitor section, but only if you are using it. PA doesn't use the monitor section by default.
[19:39] <ailo> len-1204: PA main volume doesn't touch the hardware at all
[19:39] <len-1204> Most people would be upset if PA played with the monitor section anyway.
[19:39] <ailo> It's purely software volume
[19:40] <len-1204> Which screen is that? All the PA volume controls seem to effect the hardware here.
[19:40] <len-1204> Well maybe not the application level.
[19:41] <ailo> How does it affect the hardware?
[19:41] <len-1204> PA-jack is software only though
[19:41] <len-1204> The output device control controls the hardware till 100% then the sofware kicks in.
[19:42] <len-1204> If I have alsamixer open I can watch the controls move when I move the PA controls.
[19:43] <len-1204> (HDA audio BTW)
[19:43] <ailo> len-1204: Not for d-66
[19:43] <len-1204> envey24 stuff has it's own config in PA
[19:46] <ailo> len-1204: "For example, many modern soundcards or built-in sound chips don't have a "master volume" control; for these devices, the user space library instead provides a software volume control using the "softvol" plugin" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softvol
[19:47] <ailo> The quote was from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture
[19:47] <ailo> But that's alsa..
[19:48] <len-1204> So alsa has a mute work around for everything.
[19:51] <len-1204> But alsa doesn't have a master vol for the d66 last I looked.
[19:51] <len-1204> I don't think I would want one either, actually.
[19:55] <ailo> Some cards have a main out in their internal mixer
[19:56] <ailo> I mean, some multi-channel cards like -d66
[19:56] <ailo> But then you are able to route outputs to either be direct outs, or through the main out
[19:57] <ailo> I mean, to either be direct outs, or be multi-outs
[19:59] <ailo> There's even some that have aux out, that can be assigned to any output
[19:59] <ailo> Just like a regular mixer
[19:59] <ailo> Makes sense for multichannel cards, especially when over 8 channels ins/outs
[20:01] <len-1204> ailo, thats what I meant I guess. routing makes a mess of things for system sound.
[20:07] <ailo> It'll be great once alsa supports firewire
[20:07] <ailo> Would be nice if more usb2 devices were supported as well
[20:07] <ailo> And how will it be with usb3?
[20:10] <astraljava> Yeah I'm not sure it's wise to spend much time on USB2 devices. USB3 is already there, and makes much more sense for such.
[20:11] <astraljava> But I don't really know.
[20:11] <astraljava> ...aaaand I'm off to watching more hockey. :)
[20:33] <len-1204> astraljava, not sure which way to go on the usb2 vs usb3 thing. Lots of computers don't have usb3... but then this netbook may be better off sticking to usb1 devices anyway...
[20:38] <len-1204> s/usb1/usb1 audio/
[20:40] <len-1204> took a look at init.... now upstart, I guess I get to relearn this stuff again.
[20:42] <len-1204> run levels still work, but are set up differently... sort of. It looks like at least some things have to be done both sysinit and upstartish.
[20:49] <len-1204> off to the beach...
[21:11] <ailo> The beach, ey..
[21:39] <astraljava> len-1204: Yeah, but USB3 really is the future, not all USB2 chips are that reliable.
[22:38] <astraljava> I could go to the beach. But I couldn't tell when I'd arrived.