[06:52] <trijntje> what's going on with translations, in the past two days 250 new untranslated messages showed up
[07:33] <kelemengabor> trijntje: 250? where? I mean there was a few dozen, which is quite bad in itself, but 250? unless you mean KDE, which is another sad story in this cycle :(
[07:33] <trijntje> kelemengabor: yeah, mostly kde packages
[07:33] <trijntje> this is a snapshot from last night: http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Vertaalteam/Status
[08:31] <yurchor> Hi! Talking about "sad stories", are there any plans to Muon translations form upstream?
[08:31] <yurchor> *to import
[08:32] <yurchor> And Amarok... WTF happenning? Please disable them if you cannot import upstream correctly.
[08:35] <dpm> hi yurchor, in order to help, I need some more context, what's up with Muon translations exactly?
[08:36] <yurchor> Upstream: 100%, 12.04: ~200 untranslated (all templates), Amarok: Upstream: 100%, 12.04: 103 untranslated, Konversation: same story.
[08:37] <yurchor> And Skanlite, and Choqok...
[08:38] <dpm> yurchor, the Kubuntu devs pinged me yesterday about a problem with templates: they noticed they hadn't been generated during the whole cycle. So during the day we worked hard to update them and ensure they're in good shape. It will still take a day or two for the translations to catch up, but I believe that should solve it
[08:40] <yurchor> Can you send a message to u-t to avoid idiotic waste of time for your distribution translators?
[08:40] <trijntje> dpm: does that mean we should hold of translations until upstream is imported properly?
[08:42] <yurchor> Is there any need in rat races with upstream at all?
[08:42] <dpm> yurchor, definitely, but as I said, we only fixed it yesterday, which is why I haven't posted any notice.
[08:43] <dpm> trijntje, it depends. If you're working both upstream and downstream, you probably know which strings are translated already, in which case you can hold off until they've been imported
[08:43] <yurchor> Thanks God, it will end up in 12.10!
[08:44] <dpm> yurchor, there will always be bugs, and there will always be people working hard to fix them. Rather than complaining, it is more useful to report them earlier in the cycle.
[08:44] <yurchor> If it was not broken, what have you fixed?
[08:45] <dpm> yurchor, as I said, the templates were not being generated, that's what got fixed
[08:45] <andrejz> yurchor in my understanding is that templates for kde 4.7 were used untill now
[08:46] <trijntje> dpm: I'm not sure what is translated upstream, so I should probably wait for your message to ubuntu-translators mailinglist?
[08:46] <yurchor> Fedora and Mageia will package upstream translations and have no problems at all...
[08:46] <dpm> trijntje, yes, let me do that in a minute
[08:46] <yurchor> trijntje: Just look at the stable branch of KDE it is shown there.
[08:47] <yurchor> http://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kde4/team/
[08:47] <dpm> yurchor, also Fedora and other distros do not enable updating translations throughout the 5 years lifecycle. And a bug-free distro, be it Ubuntu, Fedora or anything else, is rather utopic :-)
[08:48] <yurchor> You do not enable them for KDE as well (except for 2-3 teams).
[08:49] <dpm> yurchor, we enable them for anything that's in Launchpad, which includes KDE.
[08:49] <dpm> but in any case, I'd rather go on and do some work than starting over a upstream is better than downstream argument :-)
[08:49] <yurchor> What is the sense to translate, if they will not be included into Language pack?
[08:50] <trijntje> dpm: ok, cool, thanks for explaining! I'll send the dutch team a mail to hold of translation unless they dont mind a bit of double work ;)
[08:50] <dpm> yurchor, who says they will not be included in language packs? Everything that's in Launchpad is included in language packs
[08:51] <yurchor> You translate binutils as well, but they are untranslatable. Is this good?
[08:51] <yurchor> I thought the translations will be updated only after QA in wiki. I was wrong?
[08:52] <dpm> yurchor, what's binutils got to do with this discussion? And you are complaining about Launchpad for a bug that is in upstream??
[08:52] <yurchor> And most of the teams do not test KDE.
[08:53] <yurchor> I'm complaining about unreasonable duplication without even guranties for the work to be used.
[08:53] <dpm> yurchor, that's up to the teams to test: we enable them to do it, and that's how community works. Not everyone has time to test the langpacks, and it's the same for the KDE ones or the GNOME ones
[08:54] <dpm> the work is always used at release time. Afterwards is up to the translators and testers to release those updated translations to users
[08:54] <andrejz> What would be interesting to determine is why the templates haven't been uploaded and how can this be avoided for the future releases. Was this due to some sort of bug or just someone forgot it or was it something else?
[08:55] <dpm> andrejz, I believe it was a bug in the template-generation machinery in the Kubuntu packages
[08:55] <yurchor> dpm: Sure? Changes in Unity strings today without notification will be included? Guranteed?
[08:55] <trijntje> dpm: short question, what is the deadline for submitting localised screenshots for ubuntu-docs?
[08:56] <andrejz> can someone point me to the page with localised screenshots?
[08:56] <andrejz> i cannot find it
[08:56] <dpm> yurchor, what do you mean? Any string that is translatable and it is translated by the 19th April will be included in language packs, I'm not sure I understand your question
[08:57] <andrejz> server address used to be http://176.34.113.223/ubuntudocs-devel/ but now it doesn't work
[08:57] <dpm> trijntje, it was yesterday, but I need to talk to the docs team on whether they allow uploading a few localized screenshots, even after that.
[08:58] <yurchor> dpm: What if someone will notice this only 2012-04-19? What is the sense in such "string and interface freeze" at all? Use rolling release. ;)
[08:58] <dpm> andrejz, yeah, sorry, the server is down. Please use http://91.189.93.101/ instead, even if it does not provide the same functionality
[08:58] <trijntje> dpm: ok, I'll try to make the screenshots tomorrow and put them on ubuntu-one, and I'll see if they show up for precise ;)
[08:58] <trijntje> thanks again, I'm off
[08:58] <dpm> yurchor, ah, that's where language packs come to the rescue! ;-) then those translations can be done post-release and updated in a language pack
[08:59] <dpm> thanks trijntje!
[08:59] <andrejz> yurchor i agree with you it's very unfortuante that so many language pack related bugs and untranslated strigns appear so late in the release cycle
[08:59] <dpm> yeah, I acknowledge that too, but that's one of the downsides of a very squeezed release cycle
[09:00] <andrejz> dpm I think it would make sense to deploy some sort of automated testing if possible because it makes a bit unpleasent impression on the translators as new untranslated strings appear even a month after the freeze
[09:00] <yurchor> We are sorry altogether (for one more cycle). Let's finish with that. Thanks for your help.
[09:01] <andrejz> but on the other hand it's better to enable translation a couple days before then not at all. At least some teams will translate it (which is better than 0) and some more will get it translated via langpack update
[09:01] <dpm> yurchor, I'm not sorry at all, I think 12.04 will be an awesome release, for which Ubuntu is already translated in more languages than any previous release!
[09:02] <yurchor> dpm: if you can, please do not forget to fix import paths and Ubuntu score for Calligra templates (GUI).
[09:03] <dpm> yurchor, I believe the import paths should be correct after yesterday's fixes, but you're right, I'll define the priority, thanks for the heads up!
[09:06] <yurchor> BTW what is the critical time to complain again about fail of KDE imports? Three, four days? ;)
[09:07] <dpm> yurchor, as soon after the kde-l10n-* packages have been uploaded, if you notice translations in LP are not yet up to date, then it'd be really useful to give me or Riddell on #kubuntu-devel a heads up
[09:08] <yurchor> Thanks.
[09:08] <dpm> no worries, thank you!
[09:14] <andrejz> dpm I noticed that a large portion of late string changes has occured in Canonical packages (unity, checkbox, ubuntu one, etc.). Would it be possible to implement some sort of automated language quality control checks similar then it's for code quality in the next cycles?
[09:17] <yurchor> andrejz: It can be implemented as a new locale (xx-test) as in KDE. But developers tend to test anything anyway. :(
[09:17] <dpm> andrejz, it's a very good point. There are two things at play here: a) UI freeze breaks - these cannot be tested for, as they are generally caused by a bug or by missing a deadline b) translation bugs - for these it would definitely make sense to implement some sort of testing. I have been thinking of that too, but I haven't come up with any ideas. I'll talk to some people at UDS, but any ideas on how to implement them would be very useful!
[09:18] <dpm> yurchor, I'd be interested in the xx-test. How does that work?
[09:20] <yurchor> dpm: Script adds *** to every message at the beginning and at the end and gives a new locale. If after switching to this local application shows the messages without ***, it's a bug. IF message fields are overfulled, it's a bug...
[09:21] <yurchor> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/l10n-kde4/x-test/
[09:21] <dpm> yurchor, cool, that's very useful, thanks!
[09:22] <yurchor> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Localization/Building_KDE's_l10n_Module
[09:23] <yurchor> Slightly outdated.
[09:23] <yurchor> np.
[09:59] <artnay> dpm: so I guess we can mark bug 945560 as fixed, right?
[10:00] <dpm> hi artnay, not yet. Perhaps as Fix committed, but not Fix Released until the kde-l10n-* packages have been uploaded and new language packs generated
[10:06] <artnay> dpm: could you tell what was the problem? had it anything to do with "neon" branch in LP?
[10:07] <artnay> dpm: and could you update (once again) http://91.189.93.101/ with the latest translations? thanks in advance
[10:09] <artnay> only 37/2732 untranslated at the moment, I guess we'll manage by the 19th. next thing would be to generate localized screenshots. is there a wiki page available for that (instructions)? I remember reading of a shutter script that would automate such task
[10:16] <dpm> hi artnay, sorry for the delay. Let me update the docs server in a minute. Re: the kde templates problem, I'm not too sure what caused it, and I don't know what the 'neon' branch is
[10:27] <dpm> hi kelemengabor, as discussed yesterday, I talked to developers re: the nonlangpackdeadline packages. seb128 will take care of the exports+upload of the desktop packages in the wiki page, and I've talked to SweetShark about the LP Quicklist problems, let me paste the log:
[10:28] <kelemengabor> hi dpm, great to hear that :)
[10:30] <dpm> kelemengabor, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/927718/
[10:55] <dpm> kelemengabor, regarding the kdeqt package, I've confirmed what you told me yesterday. However, the KDE guy has told me that KDE still uses it, so that the KDE translators can provide translations (the KDE project does not work with .qm files). So in short, we should keep it with the current priority in LP, as it's definitely a template that is used
[10:57] <kelemengabor> dpm: then it is not used by the software, but by people, right?
[11:01] <sagaci> err wow, did a lot of packages just get re-added to the template list today?
[11:13] <dpm> sagaci, which ones?
[11:14] <sagaci> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+lang/en_AU/+index?batch=300&memo=1200&start=1200 -- second half of that page
[11:14] <dpm> kelemengabor, I'm not sure I can understand the question, could you ellaborate?
[11:14] <sagaci> 16,000 new strings
[11:15] <dpm> sagaci, yes, these are the Kubuntu templates we were talking about a while ago, I'll send an e-mail to the translators list with the details. Don't worry too much about them: if you translate KDE upstream, the strings should be imported soon
[11:20] <kelemengabor> dpm: I mean, there is no software that actually takes translations from the .mo file, but it is used by translators to make the translation process simpler
[11:24] <dpm> my understanding was that the .mo files were indeed used, but I'm asking again to be certain
[11:27] <dpm> tsdgeos tells me that the .mo files are used, so we should be safe to use them in language packs
[11:29] <kelemengabor> okay
[16:05] <trijntje> Evolution is suddenly untranslated to dutch for me on precise, can somebody confirm that?
[16:11] <artnay> trijntje: andrejz said the same is happening with his language (sl)
[16:15] <trijntje> artnay: so I don't need to file a bug about it, since it is already known?
[16:19] <artnay> trijntje: I didn't see andrejz filing a bug about it
[16:21] <artnay> trijntje: feel free to file a bug since there's nothing here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations?field.searchtext=evolution&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.omit_dupes=on&field
[16:21] <artnay> ouch, terrible url
[16:24] <artnay> dpm: do you still have time before the weekend? ;-) would like to have http://91.189.93.101/ updated before you leave
[16:26] <dpm> artnay, ok, update running, expect it to be ready in 5 minutes. Sorry it took me so long, I got sidetracked by something else when I started this morning
[16:28] <trijntje> bug 980958
[16:29] <artnay> trijntje: thanks. ubuntu-bug evolution would have been a better way to file a bug. are you using the main server for packages?
[16:31] <trijntje> artnay: I get updates from nl.archive.ubuntu.com, if that is what you mean with main server?
[16:31] <trijntje> I didn't use ubuntu-bug evolution since I was paranoid about how much info it would send :P
[16:32] <artnay> trijntje: that's your local server (for your country). I'd suggest to use the main server, you can enable that via ubuntu software center - that way you'll have the latest updates, not the ones that have been synced to your "local server"
[16:36] <trijntje> artnay: done, checking for new updates now
[16:37] <trijntje> ha, new langpacks, that sounds good
[16:44] <trijntje> artnay: now evolution is fully translated, I guess I'll close the bug again
[17:23] <dpm> artnay, ok, the docs server should be up to date with the latest translations
[17:27] <artnay> dpm: seems to work well enough, some images missing but nothing serious. thanks. what about localized screenshots, is there some sort of guide a) what to do b) how to do it etc.?
[17:27] <artnay> dpm: I remember hearing of shutter script, is it available somewhere?
[17:27] <dpm> artnay, Jeremy Bicha posted some info on the translators list, with a link to his script. You can try that one
[17:28] <dpm> artnay, which images are missing?
[17:28] <artnay> dpm: for example http://91.189.93.101/color-assignprofiles.html
[17:30] <dpm> ah, it seems to be missing from the source tree, weird
[17:31] <dpm> seems like an ubuntu-docs bug to me
[18:56] <dpm> and now time to call it a day, have a nice weekend everyone!