=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk [02:10] cjwatson: yeah, so it's possible that the submitter marked it private after filing it and now I can't read it... oh well :P [02:11] dupondje: we're certainly not going to upgrade to a new upstream version of cryptsetup before precise is out, no [03:58] dobey: Please have someone test the python-qt4 in precise-proposed so we can figure out if it does the job for you. === jtechidna is now known as JontheEchidna === tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter === Whoopie_ is now known as Whoopie === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates [15:41] infinity: ping ;-) [15:44] Nafallo: pong. [15:44] infinity: hi. just updated the bug about dovecot-antispam. [15:45] infinity: the package just needs a rebuild against the current version of dovecot basically. [15:45] Nafallo: How does it fail? I just tested here and it WFM... [15:45] Nafallo: (By installing it and enabling it...) [15:45] Nafallo: Am I missing something special required to reproduce this? [15:46] nafallo@phoenix:/etc$ grep antispam /var/log/syslog | head [15:46] Apr 15 13:51:38 phoenix dovecot: imap: Error: Module is for different version 2.0.15: /usr/lib/dovecot/modules/lib90_antispam_plugin.so [15:46] we use 1:2.0.19-0ubuntu1 [15:47] Apr 15 09:39:05 cthulhu dovecot: master: Dovecot v2.0.19 starting up (core dumps disabled) [15:47] I get no whining about antispam at all. Weird... [15:47] hrm. I'm fairly certain I had debug of the plugin turned on when I got that. [15:47] Are yoy doing something other than just enabling it in mail_plugins? [15:48] ehrm. it does nothing unless you configure it under the plugin { stanza... [15:48] If it's just a debug message, but not an actual failure... [15:48] Well, sure, it does nothing, but it loads. [15:49] well, it didn't work... I got that message, rebuilt it against current dovecot, and things are working now :-) [15:49] Ahh, here we go. [15:49] it has to be built against the dovecot you want to use AFAICT [15:50] Yeah, it's broken in that regard. Just found the Debian bug. [15:50] And syncing a version that actual sets the hard dep. [15:50] hrm. I tried the debian sid version, and our dovecot is newer :-P [15:51] if that's what you're doing... [15:51] Eh? [15:51] the sid version is for 2.0.18 I think... [15:51] I'm syncing 2.0+20120225-2, which actually sets sane deps on the version it's built against. [15:52] it's sane for dovecot 2.0.18, not 2.0.19 ;-) [15:52] you're just going to make it uninstallable [15:53] Nafallo: It's set dynamically at build time... [15:53] Nafallo: We don't sync binaries, we sync source. [15:54] oh. hrm. I must have misread the source then :-) [15:54] I did grab the source and eyed the control file :-) [15:55] Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, dovecot-imapd (>= ${dovecot:Version}), [15:55] dovecot-imapd (<< ${dovecot:Version}.) [15:55] DOVECOT_VERSION = $(shell V="$$(dpkg-query -W -f='$${Version}' dovecot-dev)"; echo "$${V%-*}" [15:56] Nafallo: You on amd64? [15:56] i386 for that server [15:56] but yeah, I checked the diff now :-) [15:56] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dovecot-antispam/2.0+20120225-2/+build/3408319/+files/dovecot-antispam_2.0%2B20120225-2_i386.deb [15:56] ^-- Give that a spin, then. [15:56] totally missed that, and I totally agree with syncing :-) [15:56] If that fixes it, bug closed. [15:59] * Nafallo waits for mail [16:00] Which mail would that be? [16:00] Oh, to test your server. :P [16:00] nafallo@magial? [16:00] But spelled right. [16:01] magicalforest.net :-) [16:01] Yeah, already sent. [16:01] right. now that postfix is "fixed" again, this should work better. [16:02] for some reason postgrey isn't playing ball. [16:02] I wonder if that's a dovecot or -antispam bug/misfeature. Cause requiring exact version matches is insane. [16:02] yeah, seems to be working now :-) [16:03] Right, I'll let you do the bug closure honors, since you tested it. :P [16:03] cheers :-) [16:03] And sorry about pulling rank. I get anal when we near release week. [16:04] And review everything. Even crap I don't have to. :P [16:04] no worries. I like this fix better. [16:04] I'm avoiding karma ;-) [16:04] Hah. [16:05] A bit late for me to do that. [16:05] Depends: libc6 (>= 2.4), dovecot-imapd (>= 1:2.0.19), dovecot-imapd (<< 1:2.0.19.) [16:05] not sure what that dot is doing there... but bother! :-P [16:05] The dot is there to allow for the next minor version up. [16:06] Clever hack. Ish. [16:06] aaah, I see. [16:06] Or rather, "everything but the next one up"... So, should all for Debian revisions. [16:06] right :-) [16:06] s/all/allow/ [16:06] I haven't slept in a couple of days. [16:06] I'm a bit loopy. === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk [16:06] now we just need to remember to rebuild this damn package if we ever upgrade dovecot :-P [16:07] Yeah. On every new major, it looks like. [16:07] So silly. [16:07] Someone should just fix it (or dovecot, whichever is broken). [16:07] I'm assuming the plugin is at fault here. [16:07] I can't imagine that dovecot breaks ABI on every release and forces plugins to rebuild. [16:08] I think this plugin is moving to the dovecot vcs server, so hopefully this can be in the tarball or something. [16:08] That would kinda defeat the whole point of out-of-tree plugins. [16:08] agreed [16:09] I guess I should be glad I don't use any plugins, so I don't have to know who to blame. :P [16:10] hah [16:10] well, I guess you don't use mail on your mobile either then ;-) [16:10] I'm not sure I follow. :P [16:10] * Nafallo declares victory on anti-spam server-side. [16:11] I do my spam filtering at SMTP time, like a sane person. [16:11] that is server-side ;-) [16:11] and I've got that to now :-) [16:11] and with dovecot-antispam, thunderbird can train dspam for me ;-) [16:13] Nafallo: do you know about a way to do that with Evolution? [16:13] JanC: I haven't used evolution in years, so I'm rusty. [16:14] JanC: all it is really is thunderbird moving spams into "Junk". with the plugin infinity and I discussed, that's all I need to retrain mail. [16:14] hm [16:14] I might want to look into that then [16:15] or maybe Thunderbird/Mozilla fixed all the bugs that made me switch to Evolution years ago... [16:16] Thunderbird's fairly shiny, still a bit heavy, though. [16:16] But don't listen to me, my solution to bloated mail clients is to use mutt. [16:16] when I last looked, some of those Mozilla/Thunderbird bugs had been open for 10+ years... [16:17] at least Evolution does things more or less correctly (in between crashes) [16:17] 10+-year-old bugs are a sign of a 10+-year-old project. [16:18] From the POV of "correct", I find Thunderbird to be a pretty well-behaved IMAP client. [16:18] I just prefer mutt because it's lightweight. [16:18] they were 10 years old 2 or 3 years ago ;) [16:19] Then it's the sign of a 12- or 13-year-old project. :-) [16:22] cjwatson: sure, but if they hurt everyday use more than Evolution then that's a bad sign IMHO ;) [16:25] I'm not in a position to judge, since I'm a mutt user too. I just tend to knee-jerk at the "oh no, it has old bugs" criticism. === asac` is now known as asac [16:36] cjwatson: do you consider a a mail client that doesn't allow you to edit a plain text text mail properly before sending it "usable"...? ;) [16:42] JanC: I'm not in a position to say whether Thunderbird has that bug in general or whether it's in specific cases, so don't try to draw me into making pronouncements. :-) [16:44] it has that bug in certain cases (most obviously when replying to a HTML mail), but I consider that a serious bug in every case... [16:45] it also does things like rewrap plain text mails after you hit the "send" button and such === Nisstyre is now known as TheSussman === TheSussman is now known as Nisstyre [17:44] JanC: so we just have to make Evolution crash less, and make its interface not suck so badly, and we can go back ? that should be easy ;) [17:44] kklimonda: and make it use less memory ;) [17:45] the interface isn't worse than Thunderbird BTW [17:45] JanC: well, that's easy to fix - just add another memory stick ;) [17:45] kklimonda: that doesn't make it use less memory ;) [17:46] JanC: but it can leak more! ;) [17:46] hehe [17:46] well, at least there are workarounds for memory leaks (restarting evolution) [17:47] those workarounds don't exist for the fundamental bugs in thunderbird... [17:47] (AFAIK) [17:48] it's inconventient, but not as embarrassing as sending mail that doesn't look as intended ;) [17:51] JanC: GUI Mail clients that get plain text sending right are probably in the minority [17:51] penguin42: surprisingly, Evolution does [17:52] AFAIK ;) [17:55] possibly, not used it - but as I say, it's rare [17:55] I never had/saw any problems with it [17:55] actually, Netscape Mails 4.x did those things correctly too [17:55] Mail [17:56] they broke this in the open source Netscape/Mozilla fork === mbiebl_ is now known as mbiebl [18:27] i think open source GUI mail clients tend to get plain text sending right. [18:27] it's the proprietary ones that end up with oddities === dantti is now known as dantti_away === jalcine is now known as JackyAlcine [19:29] JanC: huh, wrt evolution in precise, it seems pretty broken to me - I can't select text in html messages properly ;) [19:31] kklimonda: I use the html-to-plain-text plugin, so I never see any HTML messages ;) [19:32] I guess it's a solution of some sort ;) [19:33] so, maybe Thunderbird works with HTML mail, Evolution works with plain text, pick whatever you want ;) [19:34] but it looks like something broke - even with plain text emails I don't see them on a white background.. [19:34] damn, I can't figure out how to reset settings [19:34] evolution is like a weed, it stores settings just about everywhere ;) [19:34] kklimonda: it worked for me yesterday (or Friday?) [19:35] anyway [19:35] Evolution probably needs refactoring etc. [19:35] and more than 0.75 developers working on it [19:36] right [19:36] that's the main problem [19:36] if only Canonical.. *whistles* [19:37] but considering all that, it's a shame Thunderbird can't match Evolution on so many points with probably 20 full-time developers... [19:37] lol [19:37] Thunderbird is actually being actively developed by Mozilla devs? [19:37] I've always thought it was more of a community project [19:38] there are several Mozilla devs paid to work on it, yes [19:38] imo evolution can't match thunderbird on a lot of points, though.. [19:39] and vice versa ;) [19:39] using evolution makes me think that i'm the only one in the world accessing a gmail account over a crappy network. [19:39] it just depends on what features you need [19:39] like proper imap access? [19:39] evolution has proper imap4 access [19:39] so it claims [19:40] and so every other mail client i've tried so far claim. [19:40] although gmail doesn't have proper imap4 servers ;) [19:40] but only thunderbird gets it right [19:40] damn, broken on a guest account too [19:40] claws gets completely paralyzed [19:40] how!! it's been only few months since 11.10 and it worked fine.. [19:40] argh [19:40] evolution.. not as copmletely paralyzed, but almost just as bad. [19:41] gmail is about the worst e-mail client I ever used :P [19:41] JanC: maybe. and i'm guessing outlook.com's imap isn't perfect either.. [19:41] hyperair: the problem is gmail isn't a proper imap server ;) [19:41] i like gmail's labels. too bad they don't work that well over imap. [19:41] kklimonda: and neither is outlook.com, i suppose? [19:41] kklimonda: from my experience nothing handles imap like thunderbird does. [19:42] even with my university's mail account [19:42] hyperair: come on, Microsoft added IMAP support only so people can't complain [19:42] hyperair: I don't know about outlook.com, but the Exchange IMAP4 server is quite good AFAIK... [19:42] heh [19:42] JanC: except that it didn't work out quite so well via evolution either [19:42] hyperair: have you seen how bad is imap support in outlook? it's obvious they are pushing exchange by making alternatives suck more ;) [19:42] really, i leave evolution downloading mail headers through the night [19:42] next morning, i click on another folder [19:43] and click back [19:43] and then... [19:43] hyperair: wow, how many mails do you have? :) [19:43] IMAP is a twisty turny maze of RFCs and all look alike, so it's tough to get both a client and a server well implemented. [19:43] ...it downloads *EVERY* single mail header *AGAIN* [19:43] weird [19:43] evolution and claws both make me feel like pulling my hair out, just because of their crappy imap access [19:45] kklimonda: outlook being bad doesn't mean exchange is bad ;) [19:46] traditional IMAP isn't very useful for mobiles [19:46] kklimonda: 40,301 emails, apparently. [19:46] so thre are extentions for that [19:46] hyperair: and they all sit in your inbox? :) [19:46] kklimonda: no hang on, that's the count of gmail conversations. i have no idea how many emails there actually are.. [19:46] kklimonda: nah, that's in total [19:46] the all mail folder [19:47] i guess i could unsubscribe, but after that there's no real way of sending mail there from evolution [19:47] 40k mails is peanuts ;) [19:47] you get that after 1-2 months on LKML... :P [19:47] JanC: tell that to evolution, which barfs when fetching them. [19:48] JanC: I use gmane for mailing lists ;) [19:48] okay, thunderbird reports 115238 [19:48] I've never seen Evolution barf on # of mails [19:49] it's slow, yes [19:49] good for you [19:49] now time out a couple of connections and see how evolution handles them [19:49] hyperair: you restart it ;) [19:49] see, apparently i'm the only evolution user who lives on a university campus with idiots manning the network. [19:50] JanC: ah yes, evolution --force-shutdown. that was my favourite command during that time [19:50] that reminds me, it used to hang my gnome-panel clock applet thing due to network calendars [19:50] my main point is that you can't work around the bugs in Thunderbird, while Evolution has --force-shutdown to :P [19:50] to solve things [19:51] ¬_¬" [19:51] that's not a solution [19:51] you force-shutdown, start downloading mail all over again [19:51] and then it times out again [19:51] and you force-shutdown again [19:51] hyperair: it's better than nothing, right? [19:51] rinse and repeat. [19:51] I never saw it time-out [19:51] JanC: but it *is* nothing. you repeat that process over and over and it never completes. [19:51] hyperair: and how well does thunderbird support calendars? ;) [19:51] kklimonda: really well, with lightning [19:52] too bad it's not in main ;) [19:52] yeah, too bad. [19:52] (I'm actually surprised that they've decided not to demote evolution to universe, and not promote lightning to main) [19:53] hyperair: the main point is that Thunderbird doesn't allow me to do what I want, and Evolution does, with an occasional restart [19:53] I guess calendar is not shiney enough to ship it by default.. [19:53] I'd prefer a better mail client of course :P [19:53] that thing ought to be killed with fire. i swear the devs thought that everybody used a rock-solid internet connection that moved blazingly fast. [19:54] JanC: what do you want, anyway? [19:55] hyperair: I'm not a huge fan of Evolution but people seem to use it over thunderbird in companies (at least the few I've heard of ;)) [19:56] kklimonda: that's because thunderbird doesn't have MAPI/Exchange support, right? [19:56] (people also tend to use Windows in companies). [19:56] hyperair: it's not like evolution supports it that well ;) [19:57] well i suppose evolution in the office is rather bearable, when you think about it.. [19:57] mail server on the local network.. [19:57] blazing fast local network.. [19:57] :) [19:57] actually reliable local network.. [19:57] see, it's all about the network [19:57] evolution behaves like the network is infallible [19:58] a few cycles back, it used to turn grey every time a few packets got dropped [19:58] recently it's been better, but i just get a crapton of those progress things at the bottom that take forever to time out, and don't progress either. [19:59] My IMAP server is in Germany, while I'm in Belgium, so I'm not in a LAN ;) [19:59] sure, but have you tried using Evolution over flaky edge connection? ;) [20:00] probably not [20:01] maybe Mozilla got that implemented better? [20:01] definitely [20:01] evolution has problems with terminating stalled connections [20:01] but that doesn't excuse their lack of support for other features... :-/ [20:01] like? [20:02] i think I listed several of them before? [20:02] i only read something about html.. [20:02] er html-to-text? [20:02] which is also present in thunderbird [20:02] hyperair: actually, their editor doesn't support plain text mails properly [20:02] "edit plain text before sending" [20:03] JanC: how so? [20:03] i've been sending plain text mails for a couple of years now using thunderbird [20:03] hyperair: unless they fixed that recently :P [20:03] i wouldn't call a couple of years recent... [20:03] hyperair: you have to jump through the hoops to send git patches without TB breaking them [20:04] kklimonda: ah, is this about line-wrapping? [20:04] among other things [20:04] hyperair: last time I've tried setting it up I've had to change two or three options in about:config and then TB was still displaying content wrongly (it was sending it properly though afair) [20:04] it does other things it shouldn't do [20:04] hyperair: well, that's one complain for TB I can think of right now :) [20:05] it should leave plain text mails alone, period [20:05] hmm i like the line-wrapping though.. [20:06] hyperair: Evolution has line-wrapping when you want it [20:06] besides that, i think it mostly leaves my plain-text mail alone. [20:06] JanC: right, but i haven't seen any differences between evolution's and thunderbird's patch handling [20:06] hyperair: you must be lucky ;) [20:07] hyperair: now try to reply to a HTML mail with a plain text mail... ;) [20:08] JanC: works for me. [20:08] am i supposed to see something wrong? [20:08] but does it work for you recipients? [20:08] yeah it does [20:08] they just get it in plain text. [20:09] that would be a serious improvement over previous behaviour of Thunderbird then [20:09] i guess [20:09] open source projects tend to move fairly quickly [20:09] evolution aside [20:10] hyperair: if you think pre-2000 bugs being fixed in the last 1-2 years is "quickly", maybe :P [20:10] even Evoltiuon bugs get fixed fatser [20:10] heh :P [20:11] i think it's an issue of *which* bugs [20:11] JanC: come on, it's not like evolution has no old bugs opened ;) [20:12] kklimonda: it might well have, but most of them don't impact me as much as the long-time Thunderbird/Mozilla-bugs do/did [20:13] actually, many Thunderbird bugs are older than Evolution [20:13] that may just mean that the new bugs are fixed faster [20:14] which is not useful ;) [20:14] well think about it. i'm sure you've seen horribly complicated X bugs that never get fixed lying around in Ubuntu. [20:14] anyway, I think the point is that no mail client is really good [20:14] yeah [20:15] i think claws would be great if it didn't get screwed over by a bad network [20:15] one good point of claws seemed to be that it didn't need insane amounts of RAM [20:22] hmm yeah [20:22] actually it did for me [20:22] it actually hit 200-300M [20:22] which was better than thunderbird, which is happily sitting around 500M here [20:22] oh it's 362M now hmm [20:25] Evolution needs are expressed in GiB on my (64-bit) system [20:28] To join the conversation, I really miss descent LDAP support in TB [20:33] dupondje: how well is LDAP support in Evolution currently? (AFAIK it wasn't bad in the past, but...) [20:33] no idea on the current status [20:33] but there was read-write support a year ago [20:33] which still isnt in TB [20:34] And evolution got a nice LDAP schema, Mozilla made one, but still Alpha [20:34] if unless somebody broke it, it probably still works ;) [20:34] damn, how was the gnu tool for browsing through C projects called? it started with C afair [20:34] so* [20:35] cscope! [20:35] ☺ [20:36] hi [20:36] any knows why dlm-pcmk has been removed from precise? [20:36] Hi mr verwilst :) [20:38] verwilst: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/redhat-cluster source is still there .. but the bin is not build [20:38] hi dupondje [20:38] http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=dlm-pcmk&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all [20:38] it's been there up until precise [20:38] clustering under linux is sucky enough without missing modules :D [20:39] * Drop dlm-pcmk and gfs-pcmk. [20:39] - debian/control: Drop control rules for such packages. [20:39] - debian/{gfs,dlm}-pcmk.install: Dropped [20:39] yes, but why :P [20:39] verwilst: ask roaksoax, he's the one who's uploaded the package which dropped it [20:39] roaksoax, ^^ :P [20:40] heh, all these belgians here suddenly... :P [20:42] invasion [20:43] would be useful if you guys worked for ubuntu-be locoteam too, from time to time ;) [20:46] verwilst: if I look good the dlm-pcmk is now in another git, and not more included in the cluster source [20:47] JanC: where you need help in the locoteam ? :) [20:47] myeah ok, but that doesnt bring back my ability to use clvm with corosync ;) [20:47] you asked for the reason ;) [20:49] could try to create a package from the new source [20:49] and get it into Precise [20:51] but there must be a reason why [20:52] because the source split up? :) [20:54] dupondje: you should join #ubuntu-be and/or our mailing list for that, but maybe you can help with an Ubuntu Global Jam event or such? [20:56] * JanC goes to sleep now but will check back on that tomorrow... [20:57] verwilst: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration#NBS [20:57] hm [20:58] dupondje, heb je de link van de nieuwe repo? [20:59] source split up, new package was uploaded without pcmk, but no new package created for pcmk ... [20:59] new repo ? [21:00] location of the pcmk code :) [21:00] " if I look good the dlm-pcmk is now in another git," [21:01] https://fedorahosted.org/cluster/wiki/HomePage [21:03] http://www.redhat.com/archives/cluster-devel/2009-January/msg00013.html [21:07] bleh [21:08] so cluster is at 3.1.7 ( 3.1.8 is latest ), and i guess the dlm.git is version.. 3.99.2? [21:14] http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=cluster.git;a=tree;f=group/dlm_controld;h=23322874fb5a3686f56b68f28eab1206dff9370c;hb=e2fe317d5e1c313f5bece465e0e703b0548d50cf [21:14] seems there is still dlm, but without pacemaker support... [21:16] i've mailed the redhat guy [21:16] http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=dlm.git [21:16] this ranks as a solid 8 on my suckiness scale! [21:33] I'm using Ubuntu 12.04 with Gnome-shell. Installed gnome-tweak-tool and changed mouse theme to adwaita but cursor only changes when selecting, loading, resizing, etc [21:34] but the normal mouse is still the same [21:34] Does anyone knows how to chenge that?