[00:00] <len> The xfce-mixer is going to be a problem down the road (maybe sooner). We have no GUI mixer that can run when PA is not running for most cards.
[00:32] <len> qashmixer might work... There is not much out there.
[00:33] <len> Oops qasmixer is the right name.
[00:38] <len> Hmm, I don't know why xfce-mix quit on me before when pulse was stopped. Seems to be fine now... maybe it was open while I stopped pulse or something. qasmixer works fine too, but uses more screen real estate.
[04:26] <astraljava> len: The xfce4-mixer being the default mixer is due to no one uploading the changes I made to xfce4-volumed. Neither are the indicator-sound changes uploaded, so a new install still won't work with pulse's volume settings.
[07:33] <cccangel> i am going to school for computer science in programming ... what is the best languages to learn (the closest to linux I have learned is java)... but I have mostly learned microsoft technologies
[07:33] <cccangel> i am trying to see about specializing for linux technologies.
[08:01] <astraljava> cccangel: Most apps are written in C and C++, but some in Python, and a few in some others. Closest to linux doesn't mean anything, linux has compilers and/or interpreters for almost every language there is.
[08:02] <cccangel> i know, i used the wrong word.  i tried to mean more like java is more open source and taught me collboration between operatign systems rather than restricted my software to only windows.
[08:03] <cccangel> i think thats why it was great my high school taught me java first.
[08:03] <cccangel> so cool... methinks ill specialize with C++ at my university and shoot for working with a company in linux development'
[08:15] <astraljava> cccangel: Ubuntu has right from the start promoted the usage of Python heavily. It's loads of fun, too.
[08:16] <cccangel> i joined a group once... it was like gOS.. and they wanted me to learn python... i helped primarily with the CSS, DIV, and HTML at the time...
[08:21] <astraljava> Python is the most fun language I've programmed on. Obviously it's not a silver bullet, but works in many cases and places. 
[08:23] <cccangel> well python could be like my high level language... thing is, I also been wanting to learn C++.... just its different.
[08:30] <astraljava> Yeah, I'm definitely not arguing learning C++. It's essential and very widely used, definitely not going away.
[08:31] <astraljava> Just don't overlook ANSI C either.
[08:33] <cccangel> C/C++ basically?
[08:33] <cccangel> lol
[08:33] <cccangel> C & C++
[08:33] <cccangel> i tried to wrap my mind with C but I like the ability to structure my code with OOO... and C makes it harder... 
[08:34] <cccangel> i tried to learn on my own...
[08:34] <astraljava> Yep, they will get you far.
[08:34] <cccangel> okay... ill do that then
[08:36] <cccangel> i tell you what would be nice... http://unity3d.com would be awesome if they made their engine officially run on linux
[08:37] <cccangel> i had a friend who wanted me work on that with him... 
[08:41] <cccangel> i could self learn but i feel like websites sometimes are worse than an actual book...
[08:42] <cccangel> i do get financial aid for going to school... any books / brands that you recommend me working with?
[08:45] <cccangel> all my teachers sucked because they tried so hard to help me get the most paying job and leaned me towards learning stuff within .NET
[08:45] <cccangel> including my dad.
[08:46] <astraljava> Not really, I'm mostly self-studied except a few classes more than a decade ago. 
[08:46] <cccangel> everytime i asked about C/C++ the argument is "oh you do not need to learn that anymore, C# is just as powerful"
[08:47] <astraljava> meh
[08:48] <cccangel> apple bootcamp basically made it easier for companies to blow off cross compatiblity since they know people who own an apple computer can just run windows inside their mac.  as for linux... i have no problem putting windows in a box (where it belong) but i hate it as my primary
[08:50] <astraljava> Yeah. OS wars just deviate far from the topic of this channel, better have that talk elsewhere. :)
[08:50] <cccangel> yes i know... sorry
[08:50] <astraljava> No problem. ÖN
[08:51] <astraljava> grrr
[08:51] <astraljava> putty on an E7
[08:51] <astraljava> That was supposed to be a smiley.
[08:53] <cccangel> im bored... installing that massive Unity environment because i havent tried it yet in wine
[08:54] <cccangel> when you self learned C/C++ ... what did you use to learn though? back then- books?
[08:54] <cccangel> i learned java and javascript and .net because i had big books that i like read through , commented on... and then played around with source code examples.
[08:55] <cccangel> i basically started with web dev first... and worked myself into other things.
[09:00] <astraljava> Mostly the 'net. Could have used good books, but never got around to getting any.
[09:01] <cccangel> when i look at some C/C++ websites they just ... i guess written different sometimes because its on a webpage rather than in a book.... that and the strucutre is totally different
[09:01] <cccangel> i started relating to syntax fine with C++ and some C... no big its the library and use of it that bothers me
[09:13] <cccangel> oh... ANSI C++ is a newer C++ then?
[09:13] <cccangel> just looked that up...
[09:14] <cccangel> astraljava, would you say companies and linux users are using ANSI C++ now?
[09:24] <astraljava> Don't really know if ANSI and C++ go together that often as C does. But this is not really a programming channel either, and more over I'm not that scholared in such linguistics. Wikipedia has good articles, and there are dedicated channels for them, plus #ubuntu-app-devel. You'll have better success there.
[09:25] <cccangel> ok... im sorry if this was a headache.
[09:25] <cccangel> ill bounce
[09:25] <astraljava> Not at all. :)
[09:25] <astraljava> Just have to maintain focus, that's all.
[09:28] <cccangel> well if i was distracting you and your in the middle of something, thats cool.  i was trying to find a resource to look at and i got confused. asked a question. but ill ask elsewhere or also dont feel obligated to respond :) i tend to leave xchat running when im busy myself
[09:30] <ailo> cccangel: Further down this page you'll see what languages are primarily used for Debian Wheezy http://blog.james.rcpt.to/2012/02/13/debian-wheezy-us19-billion-your-price-free/
[09:32] <ailo> That's how many lines of code, not how many projects use those languages
[09:33] <ailo> I'd say Python is very common, but perhaps not as many lines of code is used for a lot of those projects
[09:35] <astraljava> cccangel: There's an interesting project starting, maybe it would interest you, too?
[09:35] <cccangel> it could help me learn better
[09:35] <cccangel> so sure..
[09:38] <astraljava> cccangel: We want to port gcdmaster to GTK3 so that it's usable again in the modern distributions. You can find it in LaunchPad, but I just created it, work is just beginning.
[09:38] <astraljava> damn this train network...
[09:39] <astraljava> I'll be happy to talk about it later when I have a better connection.
[09:40] <cccangel> gtk3 is a python project ?
[09:40] <cccangel> id love to look this up while you ride the train :)
[09:40] <astraljava> No, it's the toolkit that GNOME uses.
[09:41] <cccangel> oh wow.
[09:42] <astraljava> cccangel: Search for gcdmaster-gtk3 in launchpad, then read about CDRDAO and why gcdmaster was dropped.
[09:42] <cccangel> so basically, this would be ported to work more with the libraries of the most recent distro of ubuntustudio? 
[09:42] <cccangel> i found it.
[09:43] <astraljava> Not just us, but any other distro. Those libraries gcdmaster relies on are outdated.
[09:43] <cccangel> ok
[09:43] <cccangel> oh i somehow saw gtk3 and thought gnome3 my bad.
[09:44] <cccangel> i know theyre differnet
[09:45] <astraljava> I'm hoping to start hacking in about 3 weeks after I get the move done and settle down in the new place.
[09:46] <astraljava> But feel free to get used to the environment meanwhile, so you'll get a grasp of whether it interests you or not.
[09:47] <astraljava> I'm looking to find a small team to develop it, as I know I can't get it done myself in a reasonable timeframe.
[09:47] <cccangel> well im navigating myself to the sourcecode atm...
[09:48] <astraljava> But nothing formal, it'll initially live under the ubuntustudio umbrella.
[09:48] <cccangel> using the 1.2.2 revision or 1.2.3 revision?
[09:55] <astraljava> cccangel: Also read the basics of how distributed revision control works using LP and bzr.
[09:56] <astraljava> I think it says somewhere it's based on the latest CDRDAO release, if not I gotta add it.
[09:57] <cccangel> i did read into that for two days and setup my LP account and everything
[09:57] <cccangel> i am just logging into so i can setup my installation
[09:57] <astraljava> Ok.
[09:59] <cccangel> like i think i have to recreate my keys... i did a clean install and havent backed them up
[10:00] <cccangel> meh... i can do that in a bit... i can now checkout i believe
[10:00] <cccangel> maybe
[10:04] <cccangel> oh ... so i can learn Python and C++ while doing this...
[10:04] <cccangel> whadya know.
[10:07] <cccangel> what is ideal? port the ui to use python and leave the rest at C++?
[10:10] <astraljava> To be honest, I haven't been able to give it any thought, yet. len is the guy to talk to about it, he's passionate about the old release and keeps an old distro around just for that. :)
[10:11] <cccangel> hmm...  thing is... now that i am reading through this... how brand / burner specific is the program.  now people got dvd-r, dvd-rw, of different brands ontop with dvd-dl-rw so... it may need to allow support for use on newerr arch?
[10:13] <cccangel> if i really study io streams onto multimedia like cds, dvds, and blueray, this project can be revived and have added features along with new hardware support but we can take it step by step.
[10:13] <cccangel> always, step by step.
[10:16] <cccangel> actually that would be changing the project subject niche.  (nvm)
[10:18] <astraljava> I have no idea about such, but anyway I'm thinking we should separate gcdmaster from the rest. I will have to read a lot about it myself first, though. I am mainly interested about from the learning gtk3 POV. But it fits nicely under the scope of this distro, hence the locationing.
[10:22] <cccangel> i actually did a project once for someone when switching calls to one api to another and their project was in java
[10:23] <cccangel> all i need to do is learn the language a little more in areas i need (i understand variables and such) and then match up apis... i think that concept would work
[10:32] <cccangel> and im really familiar with eclipse because i used it for java dev when it started flourishing back when I was in high school.
[10:56] <cccangel> astraljava, i noticed that gcdmaster said they used the gtkmm-2.4 api since a certain version ... and sure enough that api is included in precise and 11.10 ubuntu as well... 
[11:02] <astraljava> cccangel: Yes well, some libraries that are needed to build gcdmaster are not, however. You can read cdrdao's debian/changelog, it mentions the problem.
[11:08] <cccangel> so basically people are feeling most apps should be gtk 3 by now... thats understandable.
[11:08] <cccangel> tech evolves...
[11:10] <astraljava> It's not so much about feeling, but missing the building blocks from the distribution.
[11:10] <cccangel> yes.
[11:11] <cccangel> plus... integration is more seemless when you stay current with the newer apis...
[11:11] <cccangel> i notice that with some other out of date projects.
[11:11] <cccangel> or i had outright usability problems... which 
[11:11] <cccangel> i think you said that way up above
[11:33]  * cccangel cries when the rain threatened his laptop forcing him to go back inside
[14:14] <len> astraljava, interesting conversation. Sounds young and innocent .. I am mostly a c kind of person myself. c++ has been difficult for me at best. Most of the time I have just just got frustrated and gone back to c.
[14:15] <len> But then most projects I have done have been CLI kinds of things. Any GUI stuff, tcl/tk has worked for me.
[14:16] <astraljava> Best to use tools you're comfortable with. :)
[14:17] <len> What scares me (or looks difficult... time consuming) about GCDMASTER is that I would need to learn three libs.. the old one, the new one and I think there is one inbetween... 
[14:18] <len> Unless the code is well separated from gui to work engine.
[14:19] <astraljava> Well we don't _have_ to rush with it.
[14:19] <len> Are there tools for building gtk GUIs
[14:20] <astraljava> I don't know if glade is up-to-date.
[14:20] <astraljava> Ok afk for a few hours now.
[14:20] <len> glade is still in 1204 but will it be for long?
[14:21] <len> CU
[14:31] <ailo> glade should be up to date
[14:32] <ailo> Gnome has set up new docs, which I haven't seen before
[14:32] <ailo> len: astraljava: http://developer.gnome.org/gnome-devel-demos/unstable/index.html.en
[14:32] <len> ailo, do we want to bring gnome libs in at all?
[14:33] <ailo> gtk
[14:33] <len> Or is that just to know what we are looking at?
[14:34] <ailo> I was more thinking about glade
[14:34] <ailo> But, I guess those examples do involve gnome libs somewhat
[14:35] <ailo> Anyway, glade should be up to date with gnome3, which is what everything except KDE will be based on
[14:35] <len> moving from G2 to G3 would probably be easier than G2 to gtk3
[14:37] <len> ailo, is there a standard way of querying the DE about theme values? Colours and such..
[14:42] <ailo> len: I guess gconf or something like that. I don't know much about it
[14:42] <ailo> dconf, or whatever it is nowadays
[14:44] <len> That has been something I have not worried about so far... I hit it in the workflow app I have been working on. It is easy to hard code in the colours we are using, but It would be better to pick up theme values on the fly.
[14:45] <len> OTH, things like ardour or phasex have their own theme take it or leave it.
[14:46] <ailo> Why do you ask?
[14:46] <ailo> You want to code an app that has its' own custom theme?
[14:47] <len> I would like my workflow app to use whatever colour scheme the DE panel uses.
[14:48] <ailo> You know, I've been thinking of a panel like that for years
[14:48] <len> ailo, gnome dev centre sugests "Vala".
[14:48] <ailo> One that changes with the application that is in use, but also always has global controls available
[14:49] <ailo> I even pictured a panel on the side, just like Ubity has, but something much more intricate
[14:49] <ailo> Unity*
[14:49] <len> Ya, that is my thought. really, I want a rewrite of the panel.... That is it should fit in well with the DE
[14:50] <len> That is unity's biggest problem IMO, that it is too static.
[14:50] <ailo> OSX has the global menu, but that's just a traditional menu
[14:50] <ailo> Another thing that would make things easier is coloring
[14:52] <len> unity is great for how many people use their computer... maybe ten apps from the day they buy it till they throw it out.
[14:52] <ailo> If the top most button is global, either clicking that, or moving your mouse over it would make the panel global, but the rest of the time it could be specific for the application in use
[14:53] <len> A good audio workflow with both audio and midi might use 10 to 15 apps.
[14:53] <ailo> The unity side-panel is still just a quick start panel more or less
[14:53] <ailo> 10-15 apps at one time sounds a bit much
[14:54] <len> Yes, but what One has to go through to find anything else is painful unless you know what the app is called
[14:55] <ailo> Before knowing what an app is called, the easiest way to find it is by category
[14:55] <len> qjackctl, mixer, a2j and I haven't started any main apps yet. add ardour, qtractor, two or three synths.
[14:56] <ailo> After knowing what it is called, easiest is just to type the first few letter in a search, or have a quick start
[14:56] <len> The number goes up quick.
[14:57] <ailo> I don't like having to administer too much, as a personal preference. I find it's bad when you need to customize too much
[14:57] <ailo> That's why I like gnome3, actually. Especially when you add a standard menu to it
[14:58] <len> unities categories are not easy to use. They only show you a few in any cat... The categories are too wide to easily find stuff... this is why we added submenus.
[14:58] <ailo> search by category is really great
[14:58] <ailo> Both gnome-shell and unity uses this well
[14:59] <ailo> Or by keyword
[14:59] <len> And Unity category use is slow... on any older hardware.
[14:59] <ailo> Once you find something you like, you want to save it somewhere, quickly - and that's when a quick start panel becomes handy. But, as you said, 15-20 apps is a bit much
[15:00] <ailo> gnome3 is a bit faster
[15:00] <ailo> I mean, gnome-shell
[15:00] <len> I need to try gnome shell too. but we are using xfce so I have been focusing there.
[15:01] <len> My Yf thinks I spend too much time on the computer as it is ;-)
[15:02] <len> ailo, G3 and G-shell... one is part of the other, is there something other than G-shell that can be used with G#
[15:02] <len> s/G#/G3/
[15:02] <ailo> It might be an option to have a simplified categorization on a quick start panel field, where when the starters come up to a certain number, they are grouped into submenus
[15:02] <ailo> len: Unity is on top of Gnome3
[15:03] <ailo> And xfce will be, if it isn't already to a large extent
[15:03] <len> Better to have the starter change depending on what you are doing.
[15:03] <ailo> I don't think starters should be visible by default
[15:03] <ailo> I mean, from my own idea of a panel
[15:04] <len> How do you envision the desktop looking to the user then?
[15:04] <ailo> A top panel with a clock, indicator or system tray, and a side panel that changes according to what application is in use
[15:05] <len> The side panel vanishes when not in use then?
[15:06] <ailo> The side panel should have a global control as a single button/activator at the top, and when it is activated, the whole panel shows only global controls
[15:06] <len> And when you select a golbal control?
[15:07] <len> s/golbal/global/
[15:07] <ailo> The global stuff is things like file managing, system settings, application search (possible popup menu)=
[15:08] <len> How do you run anything else?
[15:08] <ailo> What do you mean?
[15:08] <ailo> I forgot, quick launchers
[15:09] <len> These quick launches would be part of the panel then?
[15:10] <ailo> They would only show once activating the top button
[15:10] <len> That is better (IMO) than having a menu show up every time I hit the side/bottom of the screen.
[15:11] <ailo> I haven't thought it through into detail, but how I think is that nothing should show, unless you need it. And everything else should not be more than one or two clicks away (or key commands)
[15:12] <len> It is funny how the screens keep having more rez, but we stiil want to have nothing but app on it ;-) I agree.
[15:14] <len> My second thought is that I want it to use very few resources.
[15:14] <len> (I want everything)
[15:14] <ailo> I'm actually using a 42 inch TV right now. Yeah, but it's more than just about space. It's just finding a way to make the interface more intuitive, without the need to customize it too much for personal preference
[15:15] <len> I find Unity slow.... TV? crt of flat?
[15:15] <ailo> lcd, flat
[15:16] <len> I figured.
[15:16] <ailo> I don't like Unity much. gnome-shell, however. I haven't looked at the code much, but it seems to be customizable with Java script, and the theming is in css
[15:17] <ailo> It feels like what they are after is dissolving the boundaries between the cloud and the client
[15:17] <len> Intuitive is often what someone is used to.
[15:18] <ailo> I'm not the kind that doesn't like change. I just like for things to work efficiently
[15:18] <ailo> There's always a learning curve for anything. The smaller, the better
[15:18] <len> I have a problem with my data being on someone elses machine... basically they then own it.
[15:19] <len> I agree, some thing that requires learning and is then easier is good, I am talking about the average person.
[15:21] <len> My Yf has done accounting on a temp basis. She was generally able to be faster than the people she was working for because she would learn the short cuts the first day... even on custom accounting SW.
[15:21] <ailo> I think it is only because of low bandwidth that there aren't mature services to allow for people to keep stuff in the cloud for a small fee. At this time, it's perfectly possible to do using your own server. Gnome3 has added the online accounts thing, which in the long run is supposed to be fully integrated with the apps - email-client, calendar, test-editor, and so on
[15:22] <ailo> At the moment, google and msn are supported, but it would seem likely that someone would be smart enough to start offering similar services, for a small feel, with no ads and full privacy
[15:22] <len> We all do that to an extent now. I use email on a server.
[15:23] <len> ... My  server :-)
[15:23] <len> Audio is still local drive stuff though.
[15:24] <ailo> I use fastmail right now. I actually pay for it
[15:24] <ailo> Haven't had the patience to set up an email server yet. 
[15:24] <len> Mine is squirelmail
[15:24] <ailo> Going to close my google accounts later on
[15:25] <ailo> I've looked into that a bit. Looks ok
[15:25] <len> I have a gmail account, but never use it. I was using the phone thing... but not for a bit.
[15:26] <len> I am told it gets rid of a lot of the headers when answering email making it hard to thread on our mail list for example.
[15:27] <ailo> gmail has worked pretty well for me. Filtering for basic usage
[15:27] <ailo> Good amount of space too
[15:28] <ailo> With fastmail, you don't get as much, even when you pay for it. But, it's fast and private
[15:28] <len> Ya, I would use it more if I didn't have my own. DO they allow auto forwarding?
[15:28] <ailo> Yea
[15:29] <ailo> With fastmail, you can even use a custom dns. I have no idea what gmail offers, if you pay for it. 
[15:30] <ailo> I guess that's the whole issue. If you don't pay, you have to wade in shit
[15:31] <len> I basically have all that with my own server anyway.. but then I don't move often either. When you buy a home it costs too much to move, but the mortgage is a lot less than rent.
[15:31] <ailo> Someday I'll try replacing everything, even the search engine with free stuff
[15:32] <len> ailo, is your machine amd64?
[15:32] <ailo> Not this one
[15:33] <ailo> I have one at our rehersal place
[15:34] <len> It would be nice if someone tried aeolus and phasex on the ISO on one. They crash on my 32 bit machines.
[15:34] <len> Seems to be something to do with the PA libs.
[15:36] <len> Anyway, I need to go...
[16:33] <ailo> I won't probably be able to test anything on amd64 for a while
[16:34] <len> ScottL can you test these ^^^?
[21:55] <ScottL> len, i am zsync'ing now and will test aeolus and phasex