/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/04/19/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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dholbacho/16:57
cprofitt0/16:58
pleia2o/16:58
dpmo/ ;)16:58
wendaro/17:00
* dholbach pings the rest of the CC folks17:01
Gwaihiro/17:01
dholbachwendar, do you know if anyone else of the ARB said they were able to make time?17:01
wendarajmitch said he'd try, but it is 5am there17:01
stgraberI'm sort of around and not for long :)17:02
dholbachyes, impossibly early - I guess I'd send him back to bed if he'd show up :)17:02
dholbachok, let's get started then :)17:02
dholbach#startmeeting17:02
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Apr 19 17:02:31 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.17:02
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired17:02
dholbach#topic Meet-Up with the ARB17:02
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Meet-Up with the ARB
dholbachwelcome wendar and stgraber - thanks for making time17:02
dholbachhow are you doing?17:02
stgrabersurprisingly good for release - 1 week17:03
dholbach:-)17:03
wendardoing well, just got back from Taiwan yesterday17:03
dholbachhow long have you two been on the ARB already?17:03
wendarsince the beginning, so about 1.5 years17:04
wendar(3 cycles)17:04
* cprofitt nods17:04
dholbachyou've had quite a lot of challenges during this time: getting the board set up, the infrastructure changed - how do you feel things are going now?17:05
wendarI was concerned in January, it seemed we were behind and dropping further behind17:05
wendarbut, we caught up over the past few months17:05
cprofittWhat are the biggest challenges, you see, for the ARB moving forward?17:05
wendarOn the whole, the same challenges as REVU had17:06
cprofittHow significant are issues with developer not responding to requests for feedback?17:06
stgraberthese aren't too bad, when we mark that we need feedback the entry disappears from our queue17:07
stgraberthe problem is more with developers needing a lot of help to get their stuff ready for Ubuntu17:07
dholbachso compared to REVU, you think that would be improving the tools and educating the submitter?17:07
stgraberwe could keep rejecting them all until they send us something that's perfect, but my guess is that we wouldn't have anything in extras if we were doing that17:07
wendaryeah, developers not responding doesn't block us, they're just invisible17:07
cprofittI apologize for not being more familiar with the ARB que, is it public? Do you have any way of knowing how anticipated an application is?17:08
wendarThe queue is public17:08
wendarthere isn't currently any rating system for how desirable an application is17:08
wendarbut, right now we just try to get all applications through equally17:08
cprofittwendar: I was thinking in relation to how LP works with bug heat...17:08
wendarand, really, it's the responsiveness of the developer that slows an app down the most17:09
* cprofitt nods17:09
dholbachso if it was easier for the submitter to get it right, you feel the general process and tools would be good enough and things would get in in a jiffy?17:09
dholbach... and they were responsive17:09
wendaryes17:09
wendarright now we have ~6 old apps, from before we required the developer to do their own packaging17:10
wendarthose require a lot more work than the new process, so we've grandfathered them17:10
wendarbut, it does mean they're held up longer in the queue17:10
wendarI anticipate we can clear those out in this cycle17:11
cprofitthow many apps are in the que? how many were approved this last cycle?17:11
wendarthere are a total of 20 apps currently in the queue17:11
wendarwe launched 8 last cycle17:11
wendarthere is one more that we approved pending 1 change from the developer17:11
wendarbut, the developer hasn't gotten back with the fix yet17:11
cprofitthow many of those 20 that are still in the que were there are the start of this cycle... and how many new ones came in?17:12
wendar(it was one window that always appeared in Spanish)17:12
wendarall apps in the queue currently are new this cycle17:12
wendarI don't know how many came in total17:13
wendarI know we process 2-5 new apps each week17:13
wendarbut, I don't have a count of how many are brand new each week, and how many are a developer submitting a response to an existing request17:14
dholbach20 is without the ones that "need work"?17:14
cprofittdo you feel, as the communinty grows, that this process can scale?17:14
stgraberdholbach: right, because we can't see or update the "need work" one, so we consider them as not being in the queue17:14
dholbachstgraber, gotcha17:14
wendarwe'll need new volunteers to scale up17:14
stgraberdholbach: ideally we'd have some way of expiring these and rejecting them, but that's not possible in myapps17:15
* ajmitch is sort of here now :)17:15
dholbachajmitch, go back to bed! :)17:15
wendarbut, yes, the process itself is working fine (barring a few bugs in the submission system)17:15
dholbachstgraber, do you know if there's a bug filed to make that possible somehow?17:15
ajmitchdholbach: yes, I talked to achuni about that a couple of days ago17:15
wendarand, we can easily accomodate new volunteers as we get them (even without making them full voting members)17:16
ajmitchwe sorted through a few related bugs there17:16
dholbachin the mail exchange somebody mentioned a arb-helpers team and I think that's a great idea17:16
dholbachif that'd get rolling in Q, that'd be a huge win already17:16
wendarwe're tracking the most critical bugs on our Agenda actions17:16
wendarhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda17:16
cprofitthow are applications taken in the que? First come first server or someother method?17:16
wendar1) pick off the quick responses17:17
wendar(like "you submitted a binary package, please submit a PPA...")17:17
wendar2) pick off those that need slightly more investigation17:17
wendar3) clear out old apps that need packaging17:18
wendarAnd, we each give slightly higher priority to apps that we've personally adopted.17:18
wendarTo see that app all the way through to publishing.17:19
cprofittso as a specific question... what has happened with TagPlayer?17:19
wendarThat's one of the old ones, needs to be packaged.17:19
ajmitchcurrently in the staging PPA & I had highvoltage look over it a couple of days ago17:20
dholbachit looks like you have a number of interesting problems to tackle - do you have a priority list of "meta issues" you'd like to fix (or see fixed) in Q?17:20
wendarIt's been through several rounds with the developer.17:20
wendarInitially it wouldn't work installed in /opt, which is a requirement.17:20
* cprofitt nods17:21
wendardholback: what is "Q"? Quickly?17:21
dholbachprecise+1 :)17:21
dholbachsorry :)17:21
wendaroh, that Q17:21
ajmitchsome mythical as-yet-unannounced name17:21
highvoltagehi everyone17:21
wendaryes, the issues on our agenda page are the blockers for us17:22
wendarif those bugs in MyApps could be fixed, it would help enormously17:22
wendarthere are also some bugs in Quickly that are blockers for those apps getting through17:22
wendarso, they should be the easiest to approve, but actually all require manual work17:22
czajkowskiwendar: is there a  way we the CC can help with those blockers?17:23
ajmitchczajkowski: probably not now, there was progress made on them this week17:23
wendaraye, those seem to be in hand17:23
dholbachIs there any other kind of help you would like to see?17:23
cprofittThanks for the answers on those things... it has given me a better understanding of what hurdles the ARB faces.17:24
wendarIn terms of the CC specifically, I was concerned about our relation to the Canonical Community Team, but now I think that was a simple mis-communication17:24
wendarThey thought there were 70 apps pending in the queue17:24
pleia2ah, good17:24
wendarso, were feeling a bit panic'd, and like the ARB needed a rescue17:24
dholbachmight the 70 come from this page maybe: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/ToReview?17:24
dpmah, so perhaps I should clarify the 70 apps figure17:25
cprofittthat is a different list than - https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/arb/17:25
dpmJono asked me to provide stats on ARB apps in the queue17:25
wendardholbach/dpm: where does that page come from?17:25
stgraberright but that includes the needs-information ones we can't do anything about and that aren't visible in the queue ;)17:26
ajmitchwendar: I put that together a couple of days ago17:26
dpmso 70 was the sum of "Needs information" + "Pending review" + "Review in progress"17:26
stgraberdpm: right, but the queue is "pending review" + "review in progress"17:26
dpmI thought they all were relevant17:26
ajmitchit required guessing the ID of the apps in needs info state, and they cannot be adjusted17:26
wendarokay, that makes sense17:26
stgrabersome will probably stay in needs-information forever17:26
cprofittdpm: is there any process to 'drop' apps after a certain period of time is the developer does not respond to a request?17:26
ajmitchdpm: they are, this is why the bugs were blockers17:26
stgraberor until we can get some way to expire/reject them17:26
wendaryes, as far as our process goes, "Needs information" is equivalent to "Rejected"17:27
wendarif the developer doesn't respond, they don't get help17:27
dpmas in "Needs information" there are also apps that need input from the ARB, due to the MyApps bug, as ajmitch mentions17:27
dpmbut actually, this is just a number17:27
ajmitchdpm: I knew that we couldn't see some apps, and there were some that the developer had responded to but who hadn't resubmitted for review17:27
dpmyes17:27
wendarThis might be a good question for the CC: whether it's worth putting together some more caring way to reach out to developers who haven't responded in a while17:27
dpmwhat I'm trying to say is that what we are discussing here is not the size of the queue, so we shouldn't put too much focus on it17:28
cprofittwendar: I think, personal thought, that reaching out one additional time has value... but worry about how that scales17:28
ajmitchafter a lengthy discussion with achuni on this the other evening, I think we'll get a way to be able to manage the apps in that state17:28
wendarokay, so that's our highest priority bug17:28
dpmso if there was any misunderstanding there this should clear it up :)17:28
dholbachso there's more apps in the queue than 20, but it's hard to tell them apart17:29
cprofittI do think having a target for applications getting from submitted to Review in Progress should have a target timeline17:29
wendarthat means we can expect a quick bump of old submissions that need triaging, sometime in the next few weeks17:29
dpmdholbach, correct17:29
dholbachso trying to sum up the discussion up until now there seem to be difficulties or possible improvements in 1) the review infrastructure, 2) the packaging/distro bits, 3) the workflow and 4) the team17:30
wendardholbach: that's mostly due to an old bug. Apps are supposed to reappear in the queue once the developer responds.17:30
wendardholbach: but, there's a chance we will need a feature to tell them apart in the future17:30
cprofittit is outside of our control if the applications have issues (though tools provided to developers could help)... but ensuring a time from submission to an application getting reviewed is important.17:31
wendarcprofitt: I agree17:31
wendarcprofitt: right now our response time is good, generally less than a week for new submissions17:31
pleia2great17:31
cprofittI do think it would be nice to know that an application has been 'in and out' for a developer to fix an issue17:32
wendarcprofitt: in terms of priorities for next cycle, I'd like to first focus on clearing out the remaining backlog, and then on increasing our response time17:32
ajmitchit's working through & approving some of the older ones that takes a bit more time17:32
wendarer, decreasing :)17:32
cprofittit looks like they may come back and simply say Pending Review again...17:32
cprofitt+1 wendar17:32
czajkowskiwendar: do you think increasing the board would help ?17:33
cprofittwhen did we start requiring apps to be packaged?17:33
highvoltagewendar: maybe a bit off topic for this meeting, but do you think we could bring up the arb-helpers idea at UDS? it sounds like a possible way to get some of the usual ubuntu developers (like motus) involved17:33
czajkowskias I know asking someone to commit to 5 hrs a week for some people is not possible17:33
wendarcprofitt: in January we switched to requiring a PPA17:33
dpmSo I'd like to reask the question about the relationship with the Community team in the light that the particular "70 apps" number was not a worry for the community team. You felt that in trying to help we were putting too much pressure on the ARB. If the Community team can help in the future, how do you think we can work together to ensure the Free Software app developer process succeds?17:33
wendarhighvoltage: yes, I think that's a great topic for UDS, maybe even a BOF17:33
wendardpm: I see two greatest areas of help, one is where you've been very helpful in the past, which is maintaining the contacts inside Canonical to get our bug and feature requests through for the submission site and developer.ubuntu.com17:35
* ajmitch agrees, getting us in contact with the right people at the right time is very helpful17:35
wendarThe other we could use help with is inspiring the developers.17:35
dholbachwendar, by developers you mean app developers or Ubuntu (platform) developers?17:36
wendarNow that we've got the queue running smoothly, my greatest concern is the app developers who don't respond.17:36
* ajmitch is sure the arb developers need inspiration at times as well :)17:36
wendarWhy don't they respond? Is there some way we can serve their needs better?17:36
wendarI think the Community team could have some good perspectives there.17:37
wendarWhether we need to survey the app developers, or put together some training sessions.17:38
wendarOr other ideas.17:38
wendarI'm not exactly sure what's needed, but you all are aces at this.17:38
czajkowskiwendar: would more board members help with your queuses/reviews?17:39
wendarczajkowski: yes, we'll need to restaff soon17:39
ajmitchonly if those that join are going to be active17:39
dholbachso you feel the issue with the Community team is resolved now and we ... sort of ... know how to move forward?17:39
wendarwe're also seeking volunteers who aren't voters17:39
cprofittwendar: similar to bug-squad and bug-control?17:39
czajkowskiwendar: but do you think you need more than the current number, many more?17:40
* highvoltage would probably be better in a arb-helpers kind of team than on the arb team itself (since I can't contribute to the levels that the others can every week)17:40
wendardholbach: I think so, the clash in perspective was really just a difference between "panic mode" and "the queue is running pretty well now, let's work on other things"17:40
wendarhighvoltage: honestly, you're doing great, and I'd rather keep you on the board17:41
wendarhighvoltage: the idea is that the board should mostly be doing the final review/vote17:41
dholbachI feel we're not going to resolve all open issues (points 1) to 4) I mentioned above) now and specific UDS sessions for all of them might help - right now in the CC meeting I'm personally mostly interested in the ARB team aspects (if that's alright :))17:41
wendarhighvoltage: and the volunteers would be doing the leg work (some of us do both)17:41
dholbachHow is the communication working for you in the team?17:41
* stgraber disappears, time for some food ;)17:42
ajmitchin the team, it's mostly IRC, and votes on the mailing list17:42
dholbachstgraber, bon appétit17:42
wendarWe have monthly meetings, which are good for catching up on any questions about more unusual apps or changes in process17:42
highvoltagewendar: thanks for the kind words :)17:42
ajmitchmost of us lurk in #ubuntu-arb & comment when there are questions17:42
wendarwe're pretty informal, and that seems to work well for us17:43
dholbachso you feel you mostly pass on the baton quickly enough or document what needs to be documented?17:43
wendaryes, that seems to be working17:43
ajmitchwendar has done a great job with documenting stuff on the wiki17:43
dpmhighvoltage, here's some info on the team, which exists already, but is inactive: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/app-review-board/2012-February/000388.html17:43
dpmhttps://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-app-review-contributors17:43
wendarand, no conflicts whatsoever in the team, which is nice17:43
dholbachdpm, sounds like that would fit well on the ARB agenda page :-)17:44
highvoltagedpm: great17:44
* ajmitch needs to update the agenda page for the next meeting17:44
dpmsounds good17:44
dholbachIs there anything else you can think of which would make apps in Ubuntu a success?17:45
wendardholbach: for clarity, you mean your focus is on recruiting new members or non-member volunteers (sounds great!)17:45
wendarbetter tools for developers17:45
wendarQuickly is okay, but needs work.17:46
wendarOther tools have a pretty steep on-ramp for new developers.17:46
ajmitchpart of that problem is too many options, I think :)17:46
wendarAnd, pkgme has great promise for automated packaging, but doesn't produce ARB-compatible apps yet.17:46
ajmitchdpm: I hear we're to talk to you about developer.ubuntu.com at UDS17:46
ScottKIf Quickly could be replaced by something Qt/PyQt based then it could be used to target multiple platforms.  I think that would be exciting to app developers.17:47
dpmajmitch, you can talk to me about d.u.c at any time :)17:47
dholbachwendar, I just thought since the arb-helpers mail was from Feb, it might fit well on the agenda page, so you can track it better17:47
ScottKDevelop on Ubuntu, run everywhere.17:47
dholbachwendar, not sure if we're talking about the same thing :)17:47
wendarScottK: I'd be thrilled17:47
* ScottK <-- Not volunteering.17:48
dpmScottK, there is work on a pyqt template for quickly, by xdatap117:48
ajmitchScottK: darn17:48
dpmcome on, I thought you'd be volunteering, ScottK ;)17:48
wendardholbach: I was back-referring to17:48
wendarI feel we're not going to resolve all open issues (points 1) to 4) I mentioned above) now and specific UDS sessions for all of them might help - right now in the CC meeting I'm personally mostly interested in the ARB team aspects (if that's alright :))17:48
dholbachah ok17:48
wendardholbach: and, yes, adding arb-helpers to agenda page is good17:49
dholbachyeah, I felt that we wouldn't be able to cover all aspects (like packaging problems, infrastructure improvements, etc.) in this meeting, so maybe the community/team aspects were probably of most interest in the CC meeting17:49
wendardholbach: on going action item17:49
dholbachso arb-helpers, team communication, restaffing, relationship with other teams and the like17:49
wendaryes, makes sense17:49
dholbachpersonally without my CC hat on, I'm interested in a lot more than those, so I'll make time at UDS to be in the sessions :)17:50
wendarIn that context, I'd say our greatest concern is how to recruit new volunteers, and how to keep up motivation in existing ones.17:50
wendarIt seems that it's easiest to keep motivated when we have a sense that things are rolling along well.17:50
ajmitchsometimes my review time is a bit more sporadic, though highvoltage & I are trying out getting together on irc once a week to look at things17:51
dholbachI could imagine that motivation in review teams is often very closely tied to getting thing through, so having moments of success - where you know you're happy, the submitter is happy and lots of users are happy as well17:51
wendarIt was pretty discouraging  back in January when we were behind, dropping further behind, and getting almost daily messages asking for status updates.17:51
dholbachworking together on something might be motivational as well17:51
wendarI pretty much hated working on ARB at that point, and heard the same from others.17:52
ajmitchdholbach: yes, I think that helps in the rare cases we have overlapping timezones :)17:52
wendarIt's better now, it's managable.17:52
cprofittI will try to make a session at UDS too17:52
highvoltagewendar: yes, that was a hard time to be on the ARB!17:52
dholbachajmitch, even if you don't - getting a mail from your team mate saying "hey, I figured X out, I submitted it to the branch" is very nice and motivational :)17:52
cprofittI feel we need to ensure that the ARB and the process is well supported and functional as the community grows17:52
wendarSo, it's a matter of keeping that flow going, to keep motivation at a steady level.17:52
ajmitchreviewing just often isn't fun work17:53
ajmitchI think one of the harder parts is writing up a nice rejection email17:53
dholbachwendar, I can see that pressure doesn't help if you face a lot of problems - and it is a hard problem to solve, but also a very important problem to solve - I hope with multiple hats on that was understanding and diplomatic enough :))17:54
cprofittajmitch: would having 'stock' responses like bug-control help with that?17:54
ajmitchcprofitt: we do17:54
* cprofitt nods17:54
wendardholbach: Yes, thanks.17:54
ajmitchcprofitt: it was cases like zero-ballistics which I rejected the other day, where the app was GPL but it depended on an 'open-source' but non-commercial library that took some time17:54
wendardholbach: It sounds backwards, but the two months of no external pressure was enormously helpful.17:55
cprofittI for one appreciate the hard work you have all put in on the ARB. Thank you.17:55
dholbachit has been very helpful to hear of all this from you and get a better overview over what you are working on17:55
wendardholbach: Sometimes self-motivation is the best motivation.17:55
dholbachfor now I have no more questions, but sure will have more at UDS or before :)17:55
wendarThank you all, we really appreciate the support.17:55
* highvoltage usually finds motivation in wendar's self-motivation17:55
ajmitchhighvoltage: agreed17:55
cprofittI am good as well... this has been very informative and I too will ensure I make a session at UDS17:56
wendarhighvoltage: aw, thanks :)17:56
dholbachI'd like to thank you all for the hard work you put into this. Making apps a success in Ubuntu is more important than many realise, so I hope you will keep up the good work and ask for help if you need any.17:56
wendarThanks!17:57
ajmitchare there blueprints registered on LP yet to subscribe to?17:57
ajmitchdholbach: thanks, we'll keep on trying to get through the queue :)17:57
wendarajmitch: We should probably create them.17:57
dholbachyes, and work with dpm to get them in17:57
dpmI can only but join the thank yous for your hard work17:57
dholbachthanks dpm too :)17:57
dholbachGwaihir, pleia2, czajkowski: more questions from you?17:57
cprofittys, thank you dpm17:58
pleia2all set, thanks for coming17:58
highvoltagethanks to the cc for setting this up!17:58
dholbach#topic Any other business17:58
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
Gwaihirdholbach, nope, been following the discussion and it was pretty exhaustive17:58
dholbachCoC comments review is up for the next meeting, does anybody have anything else?17:59
pleia2we'll be doing a call for nominations for our new membership boards soon17:59
cprofittno18:00
pleia2we've agreed to do away with regional boards and the new boards will have meetings at 12:00 UTC and 22:00 UTC respectively, just waiting to hear back from a few board members about which timeslot they prefer so we know how many spots we have to fill18:00
* dpm goes for dinner18:00
dpmsee you all!18:00
ajmitchthanks dpm18:00
Gwaihirthanks dpm!18:01
dholbachpleia2, thanks a lot for looking into this18:01
pleia2I think that's it :)18:01
dholbachok perfect18:01
dholbachI think that's a wrap - thanks everyone for coming18:01
cprofittthanks dholbach for running the meeting18:01
dholbachI'll attempt a summary to keep the discussion going and prepare for UDS18:02
dholbachwho wants to update the wiki pages?18:02
ajmitchdholbach: thanks, sorry I was a little late :)18:02
dholbachGwaihir seems to volunteer for chairing18:02
dholbachajmitch, man - that's totally understandable if it's 5 over there :)18:02
Gwaihirdholbach, yep, count me in18:02
pleia2I can update the wiki, but if someone else could write the summary for this meeting that'd be great (I've written a lot o them lately)18:02
dholbachI'll do that18:02
pleia2thanks :)18:03
dholbach#action Gwaihir to chair next meeting18:03
meetingologyACTION: Gwaihir to chair next meeting18:03
dholbach#action dholbach to summarise meeting18:03
meetingologyACTION: dholbach to summarise meeting18:03
dholbach#action pleia2 to update wiki18:03
meetingologyACTION: pleia2 to update wiki18:03
dholbach#endmeeting18:03
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Apr 19 18:03:17 2012 UTC.18:03
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-19-17.02.moin.txt18:03
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-04-19-17.02.html18:03
dholbachTHANKS EVERYONE18:03

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