/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/04/19/#ubuntustudio-devel.txt

ScottLastraljava, i had intended audacity and inkscape to be in the video production submenu, because they are part of the video production00:49
astraljavaAhh... okay then. The bug can then be marked as invalid.05:33
ailoScottL: I don't see how Audacity qualifies as being categorized for video production. What is your thinking on that08:20
ailoFunctionally, it is an audio editor. Nothing elsxe08:21
ailoThis might be something that has come out of thinking about workflows08:25
ailoOne should differentiate between two things: 1. the function(s) an application has, 2. What they can be used for08:26
ailoSearching for an application is either done by name, or function first08:26
ailoTo make use of workflows, outside of simple documentation, one would need to add new functions for that. In other words, code an app, or several apps08:27
ailoI may be able to open my beer bottle using a spoon, but that doesn't make the spoon a bottle opener08:30
ScottLailo, my thinking is that audacity is used to trim the audio for video production12:38
ScottLin this case the audio is a subset of the video production12:38
ScottLi'm not saying this perspective is perfect, and if everyone absolutely hates it i will certainly change it back12:39
ScottLhowever, i think it certainly supports the work flow idea (i.e. putting all the tools you need in a single place)12:39
ailoScottL: The question is, should you be using the application menu for workflows? The problem you face is that the menu gets overpopulated13:44
ailoI still think the first place to start what workflows is concerned is documentation13:45
len_ailo which is the problem we were trying to solve with sub menus...13:45
len_I don't think menus is the place to do workflows...13:45
len_duplicating items for workflows in the main menu is of limited value because the menu closes after each selection.13:46
len_so you have to choose the same workflow over and over.13:47
ailoI agree. I think the menu should have programs categorized by their function alone13:47
len_That is why a panel per workflow makes more sense13:47
ailoFor audio, there's session management. I think that is a great way to work with workflows13:48
len_ailo, I think Scott is working with what he has... but the menu is not the right tool.13:48
ailoOne could easily code apps for other type of workflows as well13:49
ailoIn lack of workflow-apps, the best place to be dealing with workflows is docs13:49
len_Yes I think that is the direction we need to go. That was what my attempt at a workflow app was all about to show what kind of thing we need.13:50
len_Hey scott-work, you just miss ed it all...13:51
scott-worki'll check the logs13:51
scott-worki expected some discussion :P13:51
scott-workeh, log hasn't caught up yet13:51
len_we were saying that the menu is probably not the place to set workflows. because the menu closes after each selection anyway.13:52
len_The log will catch up in about 15min.13:52
scott-workagreed about the menu closing13:52
scott-workbut i still think it makes sense to focus on 'video production' and having the tools in one place13:52
len_So it has to be opened and the workflow selected and then the app each time.13:53
scott-workhere's my real deal though13:53
scott-workwhat if you only do video?13:53
scott-workwhat if you haven't explored all the other submenus13:53
scott-work?13:53
scott-workif you want to do one thing (video, podcast), are we really expecting them to know that inkscape is udner graphics and audacity is under audio?13:54
scott-workOR, would it not offend people to put those tools that are required for that workflow under it's own submenu?13:54
len_If I was doing video and needed some audio, I would certainly look under audio.13:54
scott-workbut what if you are a new user?  you don't know audacity is the application that we have chosen for editing audio for video or podcast13:55
ailoscott-work: If you see a bunch of apps under video, wouldn't you think that they are all for video?13:56
ailoscott-work: And if you don't know what apps to use: documentation13:56
ailoDocumentation is the first step for workflows13:56
holsteinbrasero is one i always had a hard time finding, in normal ubuntu13:56
len_That makes more sense, said that way. I think something like awn hacked to show only things needed per workflow would be better.13:56
scott-worklen_: i really, really agree with that statement13:56
scott-workholstein: good point13:56
ailoI believe to make use of workflows on the desktop, you need apps that deal only with workflows. 13:56
holsteinif i want to copy a downloaded iso, which has *nothing* to do with audio, i go there13:57
holsteinhowever, i have to say, audacity *is* an audio app13:57
holsteinit doesnt do anything for video13:57
scott-workailo: documentation is very important, but it is not as accessbile to everyone as having the tools contextually located in the menus13:57
scott-workholstein: it is used to edit audio for the vidoe13:57
holsteinyup13:57
holsteinnot edti video though13:57
holsteinedit*13:57
scott-workagain, editing audio is part of the video work flow13:58
holsteini mean, put it where you want, and i'll get with you on whatever13:58
len_holstein, there are also video apps that lack any audio.13:58
holsteinbut, its an audio app, and i think thats where folks will look13:58
scott-workholstein: but what if you don't really do audio, you want to do video and you need to edit some audio and make a fancy intro screen?  why not have those tools also located in the 'video' menu?13:59
scott-worki'm quite surprised by what i perceive is a simple arguement against this, which only seems to be "it doesn't belong there"13:59
holsteinnot sure... i might look in the audio tab to edit audio13:59
holsteinjust natrually13:59
scott-workaudacity is also under the audio tab14:00
holsteini mean, just cause i want to put a graphic on my CD case doesnt mean i need GIMP in the audio tab14:00
holsteinthats part of the audio production workflow for some14:00
holsteinand i could come up with a simialr argument14:00
holsteinnot audio applications do album graphics14:00
holsteindo we need that in the audio tab?14:00
len_holstein, as a video editor I look in the audio menu which is full of stuff.. which one do I choose? If I notice something that is also in the video menu I realize that is the one most likely to work.14:00
holsteinmaybe... but the GIMP doesnt go there14:01
holsteinagain, im with you guys... im just saying.. audactiy is an audio application14:01
len_Ja, workflow app is needed. It would group things together instead of the main menu.14:02
holsteinyeah.. seperate14:02
ailoThe problem with putting the same apps in multiple places is that the menu gets overpopulated and confused14:02
holsteini think its challenging to predict who needs what where and why14:03
ailoAnd tailoring workflows, that aren't customizable is impossible14:03
holsteinwe just gotta go with one, and make it happen14:03
ailoThey won't suit any one person14:03
holsteinyeah14:03
holsteinim afraid folks wont "take" to it14:03
holsteinand it'll be another thing to maintain14:03
ailoThe menu works best if you categorize by function. That's what people expect14:04
len_In other news... just before irun away, I found out something (by accident) with pulse and jack.14:04
holsteinbut, i think having it seperate from the main menu is key14:04
len_With pulse bridged to jack, pulse is running at 10%cpu, but if pulse doesn't happen to set up jacksink pulse adds 0%cpu14:05
len_It may be easier to turn off the sink than turn off pulse.14:05
len_Anyway, see you later, its work time.14:06
len_scott-work, irc logs are up to date.14:07
ttoineknome, astraljava told me that you do business cards, etc... can you tell me what you are using to generate a prepress PDF ??14:08
ailognome-shell and unity adds a new dimension to the menu with the search function. You search by tags or part of the name, but the tags are still function based. I suppose it might be possible to add a tag for workflows, but that doesn't seem like an optimal solution. It would be much better to have a workflow tab, or even a workflow wizard, that let's you start any kind of project (video, audio, graphics) and help you choose the14:10
ailoSorry, I meant to say "it would be much better to have a workflow panel"14:10
knomettoine, photoshop ;]14:16
ailoknome: Waat. Not GIMP?14:17
ttoineknome, ok14:17
knomenope, i don't use GIMP at all, really14:17
knomeGIMP doesn14:17
knome't support CMYK afaik14:17
ttoineailo, only krita and scribus work with printing colors14:17
ttoineSo I will have to learn Scribus ;-)14:18
knomeand inkscape supports at least "cmyk" too, but i don't know how that goes with printing14:18
ttoineknome, inkscape can not export in cmyk colors14:24
ailoToo bad. I read that GIMP can support cmyk to a degree, but perhaps that's not enough14:24
ttoinescott-work, ristretto is not powerfull enough to open large jpeg file (more than 2,5Mb)15:14
scott-workeh, ttoine left already19:05
scott-worksorry i left, i have been having computer problems at work and needed IT to reinstall some things19:05
ttoinehop19:15
scott-workttoine: hi, i saw your comment about risettro19:16
ttoineI finally reinstalled vanilla ubuntu : bright theme, integrated color management, and not so heavy desktop even on an old laptop19:16
ttoinescott-work, and most of everything, I was tired to have to reset the brighness of my laptop screen every reboot19:17
scott-workttoine: do you have a suggestion as an image viewer?19:17
ttoinethe vanilla ubuntu image viewer is good19:17
ttoineI mean for heavy jpeg, of course19:17
ttoineand it can read too cmyk tiff, etc...19:18
ttoineeyeofgnome it is19:19
ttoinewhat is strange with inkscape in Ubuntu is that there is a disclaimer in the color management preferences : "it is not activated in this version"19:23
scott-worki think we included eog (eye of gnome) previously, maybe we should go back to it then19:30
ttoinescott-work, http://lprof.sourceforge.net/ is the best project for color management at the moment20:02
ttoineit has a gui20:02
scott-workit appears that lprof is in precise20:12
ttoineyes20:13
ttoineit should replace argyle20:13
micahgit's seen no upstream movement in Ubuntu  since hardy or Debian since lenny, whereas argyll has20:24
ttoinemicahg, but argyle is command line...20:25
micahgI can't speak to that point20:30
len_scott-work, is todays iso a prerelease? Should we be testing it as that?20:53
len_I notice qatracker has replaced "daily" with "pre-release".20:54
len_hmm, 1204 does not have zsync shipped.20:58
scott-worklen_: yes, today is the RC or release candidate20:59
scott-workkinda the last milestone chance to catch a major error20:59
len_But not likely much difference from yesterday. I'll see what I can find.21:00
micahglen_: there's another respin coming21:03
len_today?21:03
micahgyes21:03
len_Ok I won't print the one I just got then.21:04
len_What time?21:04
micahgno idea, hopefully w/in a few hours21:05
len_OK. good enough21:05
micahgthe ISOs will register in #ubuntu-release when they're posted21:05
micahgah, they're posted in #ubuntu-testing as well (which might be more appropriate for you)21:06
len_I can monitor one as easy as the other.21:06
micahgthere's probably a lot more discussion in -release vs -testing21:07
len_I can see that.21:08
len_how long will we have for testing?21:09
micahgwell, final chance to respin would be next wed21:10
micahgthe sooner the better obviously21:11
len_micahg, so a few days anyway, I guess the thing to do is make sure it runs and edit the report as testing continues?21:11
micahgidk, I've not been so involved in ISO testing, but whatever tests have been run in the past I guess21:12
len_micahg the iso has been runnable for a while. More testing would be nice... but anything we find is likely to be next cycle fix I am guessing.21:14
scott-workshould we post something at reddit about the new ubuntu studio release?22:00
scott-worki'm really pretty proud and excited about this release22:00
scott-workleaving work though, i'll catch you at home22:00
ttoineScottL, you should have a look at http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/ this a gui for aguile22:25
ttoinea package for ubuntu is available22:25
ttoineit seems that a ubuntu team is working on integrating a UI for Argyll in gnome-color-management22:35
ttoineI can't find if it will be fixed in Precise, but the blueprint is on good way to be completed22:36
ttoineand now, going to sleep22:37

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