[00:49] <ScottL> astraljava, i had intended audacity and inkscape to be in the video production submenu, because they are part of the video production
[05:33] <astraljava> Ahh... okay then. The bug can then be marked as invalid.
[08:20] <ailo> ScottL: I don't see how Audacity qualifies as being categorized for video production. What is your thinking on that
[08:21] <ailo> Functionally, it is an audio editor. Nothing elsxe
[08:25] <ailo> This might be something that has come out of thinking about workflows
[08:26] <ailo> One should differentiate between two things: 1. the function(s) an application has, 2. What they can be used for
[08:26] <ailo> Searching for an application is either done by name, or function first
[08:27] <ailo> To make use of workflows, outside of simple documentation, one would need to add new functions for that. In other words, code an app, or several apps
[08:30] <ailo> I may be able to open my beer bottle using a spoon, but that doesn't make the spoon a bottle opener
[12:38] <ScottL> ailo, my thinking is that audacity is used to trim the audio for video production
[12:38] <ScottL> in this case the audio is a subset of the video production
[12:39] <ScottL> i'm not saying this perspective is perfect, and if everyone absolutely hates it i will certainly change it back
[12:39] <ScottL> however, i think it certainly supports the work flow idea (i.e. putting all the tools you need in a single place)
[13:44] <ailo> ScottL: The question is, should you be using the application menu for workflows? The problem you face is that the menu gets overpopulated
[13:45] <ailo> I still think the first place to start what workflows is concerned is documentation
[13:45] <len_> ailo which is the problem we were trying to solve with sub menus...
[13:45] <len_> I don't think menus is the place to do workflows...
[13:46] <len_> duplicating items for workflows in the main menu is of limited value because the menu closes after each selection.
[13:47] <len_> so you have to choose the same workflow over and over.
[13:47] <ailo> I agree. I think the menu should have programs categorized by their function alone
[13:47] <len_> That is why a panel per workflow makes more sense
[13:48] <ailo> For audio, there's session management. I think that is a great way to work with workflows
[13:48] <len_> ailo, I think Scott is working with what he has... but the menu is not the right tool.
[13:49] <ailo> One could easily code apps for other type of workflows as well
[13:49] <ailo> In lack of workflow-apps, the best place to be dealing with workflows is docs
[13:50] <len_> Yes I think that is the direction we need to go. That was what my attempt at a workflow app was all about to show what kind of thing we need.
[13:51] <len_> Hey scott-work, you just miss ed it all...
[13:51] <scott-work> i'll check the logs
[13:51] <scott-work> i expected some discussion :P
[13:51] <scott-work> eh, log hasn't caught up yet
[13:52] <len_> we were saying that the menu is probably not the place to set workflows. because the menu closes after each selection anyway.
[13:52] <len_> The log will catch up in about 15min.
[13:52] <scott-work> agreed about the menu closing
[13:52] <scott-work> but i still think it makes sense to focus on 'video production' and having the tools in one place
[13:53] <len_> So it has to be opened and the workflow selected and then the app each time.
[13:53] <scott-work> here's my real deal though
[13:53] <scott-work> what if you only do video?
[13:53] <scott-work> what if you haven't explored all the other submenus
[13:53] <scott-work> ?
[13:54] <scott-work> if you want to do one thing (video, podcast), are we really expecting them to know that inkscape is udner graphics and audacity is under audio?
[13:54] <scott-work> OR, would it not offend people to put those tools that are required for that workflow under it's own submenu?
[13:54] <len_> If I was doing video and needed some audio, I would certainly look under audio.
[13:55] <scott-work> but what if you are a new user?  you don't know audacity is the application that we have chosen for editing audio for video or podcast
[13:56] <ailo> scott-work: If you see a bunch of apps under video, wouldn't you think that they are all for video?
[13:56] <ailo> scott-work: And if you don't know what apps to use: documentation
[13:56] <ailo> Documentation is the first step for workflows
[13:56] <holstein> brasero is one i always had a hard time finding, in normal ubuntu
[13:56] <len_> That makes more sense, said that way. I think something like awn hacked to show only things needed per workflow would be better.
[13:56] <scott-work> len_: i really, really agree with that statement
[13:56] <scott-work> holstein: good point
[13:56] <ailo> I believe to make use of workflows on the desktop, you need apps that deal only with workflows. 
[13:57] <holstein> if i want to copy a downloaded iso, which has *nothing* to do with audio, i go there
[13:57] <holstein> however, i have to say, audacity *is* an audio app
[13:57] <holstein> it doesnt do anything for video
[13:57] <scott-work> ailo: documentation is very important, but it is not as accessbile to everyone as having the tools contextually located in the menus
[13:57] <scott-work> holstein: it is used to edit audio for the vidoe
[13:57] <holstein> yup
[13:57] <holstein> not edti video though
[13:57] <holstein> edit*
[13:58] <scott-work> again, editing audio is part of the video work flow
[13:58] <holstein> i mean, put it where you want, and i'll get with you on whatever
[13:58] <len_> holstein, there are also video apps that lack any audio.
[13:58] <holstein> but, its an audio app, and i think thats where folks will look
[13:59] <scott-work> holstein: but what if you don't really do audio, you want to do video and you need to edit some audio and make a fancy intro screen?  why not have those tools also located in the 'video' menu?
[13:59] <scott-work> i'm quite surprised by what i perceive is a simple arguement against this, which only seems to be "it doesn't belong there"
[13:59] <holstein> not sure... i might look in the audio tab to edit audio
[13:59] <holstein> just natrually
[14:00] <scott-work> audacity is also under the audio tab
[14:00] <holstein> i mean, just cause i want to put a graphic on my CD case doesnt mean i need GIMP in the audio tab
[14:00] <holstein> thats part of the audio production workflow for some
[14:00] <holstein> and i could come up with a simialr argument
[14:00] <holstein> not audio applications do album graphics
[14:00] <holstein> do we need that in the audio tab?
[14:00] <len_> holstein, as a video editor I look in the audio menu which is full of stuff.. which one do I choose? If I notice something that is also in the video menu I realize that is the one most likely to work.
[14:01] <holstein> maybe... but the GIMP doesnt go there
[14:01] <holstein> again, im with you guys... im just saying.. audactiy is an audio application
[14:02] <len_> Ja, workflow app is needed. It would group things together instead of the main menu.
[14:02] <holstein> yeah.. seperate
[14:02] <ailo> The problem with putting the same apps in multiple places is that the menu gets overpopulated and confused
[14:03] <holstein> i think its challenging to predict who needs what where and why
[14:03] <ailo> And tailoring workflows, that aren't customizable is impossible
[14:03] <holstein> we just gotta go with one, and make it happen
[14:03] <ailo> They won't suit any one person
[14:03] <holstein> yeah
[14:03] <holstein> im afraid folks wont "take" to it
[14:03] <holstein> and it'll be another thing to maintain
[14:04] <ailo> The menu works best if you categorize by function. That's what people expect
[14:04] <len_> In other news... just before irun away, I found out something (by accident) with pulse and jack.
[14:04] <holstein> but, i think having it seperate from the main menu is key
[14:05] <len_> With pulse bridged to jack, pulse is running at 10%cpu, but if pulse doesn't happen to set up jacksink pulse adds 0%cpu
[14:05] <len_> It may be easier to turn off the sink than turn off pulse.
[14:06] <len_> Anyway, see you later, its work time.
[14:07] <len_> scott-work, irc logs are up to date.
[14:08] <ttoine> knome, astraljava told me that you do business cards, etc... can you tell me what you are using to generate a prepress PDF ??
[14:10] <ailo> gnome-shell and unity adds a new dimension to the menu with the search function. You search by tags or part of the name, but the tags are still function based. I suppose it might be possible to add a tag for workflows, but that doesn't seem like an optimal solution. It would be much better to have a workflow tab, or even a workflow wizard, that let's you start any kind of project (video, audio, graphics) and help you choose the
[14:10] <ailo> Sorry, I meant to say "it would be much better to have a workflow panel"
[14:16] <knome> ttoine, photoshop ;]
[14:17] <ailo> knome: Waat. Not GIMP?
[14:17] <ttoine> knome, ok
[14:17] <knome> nope, i don't use GIMP at all, really
[14:17] <knome> GIMP doesn
[14:17] <knome> 't support CMYK afaik
[14:17] <ttoine> ailo, only krita and scribus work with printing colors
[14:18] <ttoine> So I will have to learn Scribus ;-)
[14:18] <knome> and inkscape supports at least "cmyk" too, but i don't know how that goes with printing
[14:24] <ttoine> knome, inkscape can not export in cmyk colors
[14:24] <ailo> Too bad. I read that GIMP can support cmyk to a degree, but perhaps that's not enough
[15:14] <ttoine> scott-work, ristretto is not powerfull enough to open large jpeg file (more than 2,5Mb)
[19:05] <scott-work> eh, ttoine left already
[19:05] <scott-work> sorry i left, i have been having computer problems at work and needed IT to reinstall some things
[19:15] <ttoine> hop
[19:16] <scott-work> ttoine: hi, i saw your comment about risettro
[19:16] <ttoine> I finally reinstalled vanilla ubuntu : bright theme, integrated color management, and not so heavy desktop even on an old laptop
[19:17] <ttoine> scott-work, and most of everything, I was tired to have to reset the brighness of my laptop screen every reboot
[19:17] <scott-work> ttoine: do you have a suggestion as an image viewer?
[19:17] <ttoine> the vanilla ubuntu image viewer is good
[19:17] <ttoine> I mean for heavy jpeg, of course
[19:18] <ttoine> and it can read too cmyk tiff, etc...
[19:19] <ttoine> eyeofgnome it is
[19:23] <ttoine> what is strange with inkscape in Ubuntu is that there is a disclaimer in the color management preferences : "it is not activated in this version"
[19:30] <scott-work> i think we included eog (eye of gnome) previously, maybe we should go back to it then
[20:02] <ttoine> scott-work, http://lprof.sourceforge.net/ is the best project for color management at the moment
[20:02] <ttoine> it has a gui
[20:12] <scott-work> it appears that lprof is in precise
[20:13] <ttoine> yes
[20:13] <ttoine> it should replace argyle
[20:24] <micahg> it's seen no upstream movement in Ubuntu  since hardy or Debian since lenny, whereas argyll has
[20:25] <ttoine> micahg, but argyle is command line...
[20:30] <micahg> I can't speak to that point
[20:53] <len_> scott-work, is todays iso a prerelease? Should we be testing it as that?
[20:54] <len_> I notice qatracker has replaced "daily" with "pre-release".
[20:58] <len_> hmm, 1204 does not have zsync shipped.
[20:59] <scott-work> len_: yes, today is the RC or release candidate
[20:59] <scott-work> kinda the last milestone chance to catch a major error
[21:00] <len_> But not likely much difference from yesterday. I'll see what I can find.
[21:03] <micahg> len_: there's another respin coming
[21:03] <len_> today?
[21:03] <micahg> yes
[21:04] <len_> Ok I won't print the one I just got then.
[21:04] <len_> What time?
[21:05] <micahg> no idea, hopefully w/in a few hours
[21:05] <len_> OK. good enough
[21:05] <micahg> the ISOs will register in #ubuntu-release when they're posted
[21:06] <micahg> ah, they're posted in #ubuntu-testing as well (which might be more appropriate for you)
[21:06] <len_> I can monitor one as easy as the other.
[21:07] <micahg> there's probably a lot more discussion in -release vs -testing
[21:08] <len_> I can see that.
[21:09] <len_> how long will we have for testing?
[21:10] <micahg> well, final chance to respin would be next wed
[21:11] <micahg> the sooner the better obviously
[21:11] <len_> micahg, so a few days anyway, I guess the thing to do is make sure it runs and edit the report as testing continues?
[21:12] <micahg> idk, I've not been so involved in ISO testing, but whatever tests have been run in the past I guess
[21:14] <len_> micahg the iso has been runnable for a while. More testing would be nice... but anything we find is likely to be next cycle fix I am guessing.
[22:00] <scott-work> should we post something at reddit about the new ubuntu studio release?
[22:00] <scott-work> i'm really pretty proud and excited about this release
[22:00] <scott-work> leaving work though, i'll catch you at home
[22:25] <ttoine> ScottL, you should have a look at http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/ this a gui for aguile
[22:25] <ttoine> a package for ubuntu is available
[22:35] <ttoine> it seems that a ubuntu team is working on integrating a UI for Argyll in gnome-color-management
[22:36] <ttoine> I can't find if it will be fixed in Precise, but the blueprint is on good way to be completed
[22:37] <ttoine> and now, going to sleep