[00:49] astraljava, i had intended audacity and inkscape to be in the video production submenu, because they are part of the video production [05:33] Ahh... okay then. The bug can then be marked as invalid. [08:20] ScottL: I don't see how Audacity qualifies as being categorized for video production. What is your thinking on that [08:21] Functionally, it is an audio editor. Nothing elsxe [08:25] This might be something that has come out of thinking about workflows [08:26] One should differentiate between two things: 1. the function(s) an application has, 2. What they can be used for [08:26] Searching for an application is either done by name, or function first [08:27] To make use of workflows, outside of simple documentation, one would need to add new functions for that. In other words, code an app, or several apps [08:30] I may be able to open my beer bottle using a spoon, but that doesn't make the spoon a bottle opener [12:38] ailo, my thinking is that audacity is used to trim the audio for video production [12:38] in this case the audio is a subset of the video production [12:39] i'm not saying this perspective is perfect, and if everyone absolutely hates it i will certainly change it back [12:39] however, i think it certainly supports the work flow idea (i.e. putting all the tools you need in a single place) [13:44] ScottL: The question is, should you be using the application menu for workflows? The problem you face is that the menu gets overpopulated [13:45] I still think the first place to start what workflows is concerned is documentation [13:45] ailo which is the problem we were trying to solve with sub menus... [13:45] I don't think menus is the place to do workflows... [13:46] duplicating items for workflows in the main menu is of limited value because the menu closes after each selection. [13:47] so you have to choose the same workflow over and over. [13:47] I agree. I think the menu should have programs categorized by their function alone [13:47] That is why a panel per workflow makes more sense [13:48] For audio, there's session management. I think that is a great way to work with workflows [13:48] ailo, I think Scott is working with what he has... but the menu is not the right tool. [13:49] One could easily code apps for other type of workflows as well [13:49] In lack of workflow-apps, the best place to be dealing with workflows is docs [13:50] Yes I think that is the direction we need to go. That was what my attempt at a workflow app was all about to show what kind of thing we need. [13:51] Hey scott-work, you just miss ed it all... [13:51] i'll check the logs [13:51] i expected some discussion :P [13:51] eh, log hasn't caught up yet [13:52] we were saying that the menu is probably not the place to set workflows. because the menu closes after each selection anyway. [13:52] The log will catch up in about 15min. [13:52] agreed about the menu closing [13:52] but i still think it makes sense to focus on 'video production' and having the tools in one place [13:53] So it has to be opened and the workflow selected and then the app each time. [13:53] here's my real deal though [13:53] what if you only do video? [13:53] what if you haven't explored all the other submenus [13:53] ? [13:54] if you want to do one thing (video, podcast), are we really expecting them to know that inkscape is udner graphics and audacity is under audio? [13:54] OR, would it not offend people to put those tools that are required for that workflow under it's own submenu? [13:54] If I was doing video and needed some audio, I would certainly look under audio. [13:55] but what if you are a new user? you don't know audacity is the application that we have chosen for editing audio for video or podcast [13:56] scott-work: If you see a bunch of apps under video, wouldn't you think that they are all for video? [13:56] scott-work: And if you don't know what apps to use: documentation [13:56] Documentation is the first step for workflows [13:56] brasero is one i always had a hard time finding, in normal ubuntu [13:56] That makes more sense, said that way. I think something like awn hacked to show only things needed per workflow would be better. [13:56] len_: i really, really agree with that statement [13:56] holstein: good point [13:56] I believe to make use of workflows on the desktop, you need apps that deal only with workflows. [13:57] if i want to copy a downloaded iso, which has *nothing* to do with audio, i go there [13:57] however, i have to say, audacity *is* an audio app [13:57] it doesnt do anything for video [13:57] ailo: documentation is very important, but it is not as accessbile to everyone as having the tools contextually located in the menus [13:57] holstein: it is used to edit audio for the vidoe [13:57] yup [13:57] not edti video though [13:57] edit* [13:58] again, editing audio is part of the video work flow [13:58] i mean, put it where you want, and i'll get with you on whatever [13:58] holstein, there are also video apps that lack any audio. [13:58] but, its an audio app, and i think thats where folks will look [13:59] holstein: but what if you don't really do audio, you want to do video and you need to edit some audio and make a fancy intro screen? why not have those tools also located in the 'video' menu? [13:59] i'm quite surprised by what i perceive is a simple arguement against this, which only seems to be "it doesn't belong there" [13:59] not sure... i might look in the audio tab to edit audio [13:59] just natrually [14:00] audacity is also under the audio tab [14:00] i mean, just cause i want to put a graphic on my CD case doesnt mean i need GIMP in the audio tab [14:00] thats part of the audio production workflow for some [14:00] and i could come up with a simialr argument [14:00] not audio applications do album graphics [14:00] do we need that in the audio tab? [14:00] holstein, as a video editor I look in the audio menu which is full of stuff.. which one do I choose? If I notice something that is also in the video menu I realize that is the one most likely to work. [14:01] maybe... but the GIMP doesnt go there [14:01] again, im with you guys... im just saying.. audactiy is an audio application [14:02] Ja, workflow app is needed. It would group things together instead of the main menu. [14:02] yeah.. seperate [14:02] The problem with putting the same apps in multiple places is that the menu gets overpopulated and confused [14:03] i think its challenging to predict who needs what where and why [14:03] And tailoring workflows, that aren't customizable is impossible [14:03] we just gotta go with one, and make it happen [14:03] They won't suit any one person [14:03] yeah [14:03] im afraid folks wont "take" to it [14:03] and it'll be another thing to maintain [14:04] The menu works best if you categorize by function. That's what people expect [14:04] In other news... just before irun away, I found out something (by accident) with pulse and jack. [14:04] but, i think having it seperate from the main menu is key [14:05] With pulse bridged to jack, pulse is running at 10%cpu, but if pulse doesn't happen to set up jacksink pulse adds 0%cpu [14:05] It may be easier to turn off the sink than turn off pulse. [14:06] Anyway, see you later, its work time. [14:07] scott-work, irc logs are up to date. [14:08] knome, astraljava told me that you do business cards, etc... can you tell me what you are using to generate a prepress PDF ?? [14:10] gnome-shell and unity adds a new dimension to the menu with the search function. You search by tags or part of the name, but the tags are still function based. I suppose it might be possible to add a tag for workflows, but that doesn't seem like an optimal solution. It would be much better to have a workflow tab, or even a workflow wizard, that let's you start any kind of project (video, audio, graphics) and help you choose the [14:10] Sorry, I meant to say "it would be much better to have a workflow panel" [14:16] ttoine, photoshop ;] [14:17] knome: Waat. Not GIMP? [14:17] knome, ok [14:17] nope, i don't use GIMP at all, really [14:17] GIMP doesn [14:17] 't support CMYK afaik [14:17] ailo, only krita and scribus work with printing colors [14:18] So I will have to learn Scribus ;-) [14:18] and inkscape supports at least "cmyk" too, but i don't know how that goes with printing [14:24] knome, inkscape can not export in cmyk colors [14:24] Too bad. I read that GIMP can support cmyk to a degree, but perhaps that's not enough [15:14] scott-work, ristretto is not powerfull enough to open large jpeg file (more than 2,5Mb) [19:05] eh, ttoine left already [19:05] sorry i left, i have been having computer problems at work and needed IT to reinstall some things [19:15] hop [19:16] ttoine: hi, i saw your comment about risettro [19:16] I finally reinstalled vanilla ubuntu : bright theme, integrated color management, and not so heavy desktop even on an old laptop [19:17] scott-work, and most of everything, I was tired to have to reset the brighness of my laptop screen every reboot [19:17] ttoine: do you have a suggestion as an image viewer? [19:17] the vanilla ubuntu image viewer is good [19:17] I mean for heavy jpeg, of course [19:18] and it can read too cmyk tiff, etc... [19:19] eyeofgnome it is [19:23] what is strange with inkscape in Ubuntu is that there is a disclaimer in the color management preferences : "it is not activated in this version" [19:30] i think we included eog (eye of gnome) previously, maybe we should go back to it then [20:02] scott-work, http://lprof.sourceforge.net/ is the best project for color management at the moment [20:02] it has a gui [20:12] it appears that lprof is in precise [20:13] yes [20:13] it should replace argyle [20:24] it's seen no upstream movement in Ubuntu since hardy or Debian since lenny, whereas argyll has [20:25] micahg, but argyle is command line... [20:30] I can't speak to that point [20:53] scott-work, is todays iso a prerelease? Should we be testing it as that? [20:54] I notice qatracker has replaced "daily" with "pre-release". [20:58] hmm, 1204 does not have zsync shipped. [20:59] len_: yes, today is the RC or release candidate [20:59] kinda the last milestone chance to catch a major error [21:00] But not likely much difference from yesterday. I'll see what I can find. [21:03] len_: there's another respin coming [21:03] today? [21:03] yes [21:04] Ok I won't print the one I just got then. [21:04] What time? [21:05] no idea, hopefully w/in a few hours [21:05] OK. good enough [21:05] the ISOs will register in #ubuntu-release when they're posted [21:06] ah, they're posted in #ubuntu-testing as well (which might be more appropriate for you) [21:06] I can monitor one as easy as the other. [21:07] there's probably a lot more discussion in -release vs -testing [21:08] I can see that. [21:09] how long will we have for testing? [21:10] well, final chance to respin would be next wed [21:11] the sooner the better obviously [21:11] micahg, so a few days anyway, I guess the thing to do is make sure it runs and edit the report as testing continues? [21:12] idk, I've not been so involved in ISO testing, but whatever tests have been run in the past I guess [21:14] micahg the iso has been runnable for a while. More testing would be nice... but anything we find is likely to be next cycle fix I am guessing. [22:00] should we post something at reddit about the new ubuntu studio release? [22:00] i'm really pretty proud and excited about this release [22:00] leaving work though, i'll catch you at home [22:25] ScottL, you should have a look at http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/ this a gui for aguile [22:25] a package for ubuntu is available [22:35] it seems that a ubuntu team is working on integrating a UI for Argyll in gnome-color-management [22:36] I can't find if it will be fixed in Precise, but the blueprint is on good way to be completed [22:37] and now, going to sleep