=== c7p is now known as c7p-and [20:01] Good evening everyone [20:01] Hello all [20:01] hello all [20:01] Hi everyone (I'm the newbie) [20:01] Hello! [20:02] Hi everyone [20:02] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-12-04-3rdMeeting [20:02] hey guys :) [20:02] hey godbyk [20:02] hello [20:04] Hey, guys. Sorry I'm late. [20:05] no worries === godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Meeting agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-12-04-3rdMeeting | Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Oneiric edition released! | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com [20:08] Are we expecting others or shall we get started? [20:08] Chris is not here yet [20:08] Ah, 'kay. [20:08] I couldn't remember who all signed up. [20:08] but you may start anyway [20:08] I'm glad to see so many people here! [20:08] me too :D [20:08] hannie: Okay. [20:08] #startmeeting [20:08] Meeting started Sat Apr 21 20:08:57 2012 UTC. The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [20:08] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [20:09] #chair hannie [20:09] Current chairs: godbyk hannie [20:09] #chair c7p1 [20:09] Current chairs: c7p1 godbyk hannie [20:09] The agenda for this meeting is available at . [20:10] I think that the meetingology bot will track the attendance for us (as long as everyone says something during the meeting). If everyone could just say 'hi', that'd help. [20:10] hi [20:10] hi [20:10] hello [20:10] hi [20:10] Hi [20:10] hi [20:10] hey [20:10] hi [20:10] Excellent! Thanks. [20:10] #topic "Job" openings for the 12.04 cycle === pfjappaco-precis is now known as pfjappaco [20:11] [TOPIC] "Job" openings for the 12.04 cycle [20:11] ok here you can see current job openings http://bit.ly/I0SAXe [20:11] It looks neat [20:11] during this week we got some applications from new people [20:11] excellent [20:11] i marked new authors in the spreadsheet [20:12] c7p1, I do not yet see Anthony Venable in the list [20:12] i can see some of the new contributors here too :) [20:12] i can work on listening to music section, if no one takes it up [20:12] me too, i've contacted him but i didn't get a response [20:12] i don't know why thogh [20:13] bsvelan_: good to know, if you can send a mail to the jobs mail to take you into account [20:13] okay [20:14] although anthony requested that section first, but will see, if he won't reply i guess you can take it [20:14] that's all for this topic [20:14] c7p1: no problem [20:14] #topic Meet the new authors and answer any questions they might have [20:14] let's meet new contributors :) [20:14] Who here is a new author? [20:15] Me :) [20:15] Hey, KevQuirk. Nice to meet you! Thanks for helping out. [20:15] godbyk, may I suggest that all newcomers introduce themselves? [20:15] hannie: Good idea. [20:15] No problem godbyk, nice to be here! [20:15] and then we should do the same :) [20:15] Why don't we start with KevQuirk and then bsvelan_.. [20:16] KevQuirk: Tell us a bit about yourself and what chapter/section you'll be writing. [20:16] Ok then, my name is Kev Quirk. I work in It professionally (for Hewlett Packard) and I have been working with linux and open source for around 6 years and obviously my distro of choice is Ubuntu. [20:17] I'm going to be writing on the Firefox & Getting Online sections of the manual. [20:17] good choice ;) [20:17] Can't believe I landed those sections to be honest....I think they're going to be the fun ones. [20:17] I've also volunteered to help with the troubleshooting section should my help be needed. [20:18] very nice [20:18] Thanks, Kev. [20:19] bsvelan_: How about you? [20:19] There's isn't much else to say really, I'm a moderator on the Pinguy OS forums and I also maintain a blog and an online wiki. [20:19] bsvelan_, is that Senthil? [20:19] Hi everyone...My name is Senthil Velan. I am doctor and a graduate student at UMD. I have been using Ubuntu for the last 3 years [20:20] Yes, it is [20:20] I worked on Microblogging last year. [20:20] yap [20:21] Great! [20:21] Do we have any other new authors or editors here today? [20:21] is kereltis new? [20:21] Yeah, I'm new as well [20:21] Ah, ajmontag. Go ahead. [20:21] Hey Guys, I'm Andrew Montag and I'll be authoring the UbuntuOne section. I'm currently studying Computer Engineering at Iowa State University in the US. [20:21] nope, I did the email section the last time :0 [20:22] ok, sorry kereltis [20:22] I have been using Ubuntu for two years now, and really enjoy it [20:22] Cool. Thanks, Andrew. [20:23] I have considered a minor in technical writing, but I'd rather not pay the extra semesters, so I'm just contributing here instead! [20:23] Should we have introductions for all the non-new people, too or move on in the agenda? [20:23] ajmontag: Good choice. We're much cheaper! [20:23] Is do not see che dean, he mailed he would be here [20:23] *I [20:23] i think we should do the introductions [20:23] Personally I'd like to meet the rest of the team if thats ok? [20:23] Okay. Go ahead c7p1. Introduce yourself. [20:24] (We'll go alphabetically to make sure we don't miss anyone. :-)) [20:25] ok, my name is John, i firstly contributed to the project as a translator for the Greek manual. I helped as author for the previous release and generally i try to help the project however i can [20:25] in the previous release* (a typo :D) [20:26] finished [20:26] hannie? [20:26] ok [20:27] My real name is Hannie. I have been using Ubuntu for about two years now. [20:27] I started with Ubuntu Dutch Translators, of which I am the owner now. [20:27] Apart from translating I also joined the manual because: [20:28] I firmly believe in good documentation. [20:28] First I translated most of the manual, Lucid Lynx [20:29] then I joined the manual team, and worked on the previous version as author/editor and helping wherever I can [20:29] c7p1 and hannie both help out in a lot of different ways on the project: general proofreading/editing, helping new team members, assisting translators, etc. [20:29] kereltis? [20:29] Finally I can say that working together on a project like this is very satisfying [20:29] My real name is Che, I worked on the Thunderbird section in the previous release. [20:30] I've been using Ubuntu for almost 3 years now. [20:30] And I just want to help out wherever I can. Good documentation is very important for new users. [20:31] Thanks, Che! [20:31] pfjappaco? [20:31] Ok [20:32] I have been using Ubuntu since my uncle introduced me to it about three years ago [20:32] my name is Paco [20:32] I worked on the Ubuntu Desktop section as an editor in the previous release [20:32] I like Linux, I like getting involved and helping out and this seemed the best way to do so [20:33] yep, that's it for me [20:33] Thanks, pfjappaco. [20:33] unofficialresult? [20:33] pfjappaco, are you going to work on the desktop chapter again? [20:34] Hi my name is Brian and I did the Photo section last time [20:34] I can really help out wherever needed (but preferably as an editor again) [20:34] I've been using Ubuntu since 5.10 [20:35] Thanks, unofficialresult. [20:35] Did I miss anyone else who's present? [20:36] Maybe you should introduce yourself too, godbyk [20:36] Yourself? :D [20:36] :D [20:36] hannie: Oh, I s'pose! [20:36] Before he introduces himself, for those who do not know it: [20:37] We wouldn't be anywhere without kevin [20:37] My name is Kevin. I started the project to help out with the book design and the LaTeX code that you all suffer with. I've done some editing and helped out a bit here and there. I'm usually the last person who touches the manual before it's published (for better or worse). [20:37] you can call him super-Kevin, he does everything :D [20:37] Ha! [20:38] To be honest, I decided to help out after I saw the manual and the beautiful LaTeX formatting it had! [20:38] Good job, Kevin [20:38] Thanks, bsvelan_! [20:38] I think that covers everyone who's at this meeting. [20:38] me too [20:38] I'd like to thank our new authors and editors and especially thank our returning team members! [20:38] I'm trying to get my head around LaTeX at the moment lol :) [20:39] kereltis: Well if you run into any problems, feel free to yell at me. :) [20:39] #topic Establish deadlines for the 12.04 edition [20:39] Thanks, Kevin! [20:39] So deadline time! [20:39] yap also post mails to the list so other authors can see the answers [20:39] We need to establish a timeline for the release of the 12.04 edition. [20:40] for the new contributors, you can use the material that already exists [20:40] Yes, this one is important as it's the LTS release [20:40] There are a couple of ways we can do this: (1) set a final release date and work backwards, (2) set deadlines for each phase to find the final release date. [20:40] But the step from oneiric to precise is not such a big one [20:41] hannie: At least not as big as the previous step! [20:41] i think (1) can work for us [20:41] hannie, that's the best part, we might be able to get it out faster [20:41] what do you think ? [20:41] c7p1: As long as we're not overly ambitious. :) [20:42] Tomorrow? lol [20:42] :P [20:42] lol [20:42] I think we should begin with the end in mind, so option 1 sounds good for me [20:42] yes, we should be realistic. We do not even have authors for all chapters [20:42] but yes, keeping it reasonable haha [20:42] yeah, 1 is good [20:42] Any proposals for release dates, then? [20:42] working backwards would be the best way to go about it [20:42] Ubuntu 12.04 will be released this week. [20:43] June/July? [20:43] How about a couple of weeks from now for the text [20:43] How about August 1? [20:43] Mid-June? [20:43] July sounds good [20:43] mid June sounds good [20:43] Ha! We're kind of all over the place, aren't we? [20:44] Okay, let's assess the work we have to do and estimate how long it'll take to do each phase. [20:44] Do the authors have an idea of how long it'll take to update their chapters/sections? [20:44] Email just needs minor changes [20:45] Banshee will have to be replaced with Rythmbox [20:45] yap [20:45] I have no idea but I am happy to commit to whatever is needed to hit the deadline [20:45] I haven't installed the latest Ubuntu and Shotwell, but I imagine it will be minor changes as well [20:45] I for myself want to start as soon as I have Precise installed. (I do not have the beta version) [20:45] I am guessing not much has changed with Microblogging though I am yet to try Precise. [20:45] kereltis: we'll have to recover the material for the natty series [20:45] Me too hannie, I tend to not go for beta's...too buggy [20:46] I have not began any comparison yet, so I am still in the dark as far as time goes [20:46] Precise beta is actually quite stable already [20:46] fair enough [20:46] It sounds like it'll take 2–4 weeks for the authors to finish their work depending on how much has changed. [20:47] We need to add in HUD usage [20:47] Any many of the authors won't know what's changed until they install 12.04 later this week. [20:47] yap, that goes to the first part of the Desktop chapter [20:47] I'm running it already, it's very stable [20:47] And I would like to see something about Unity 2D and 3D [20:47] c7p1: We still need authors for the first part of that chapter, right? [20:47] We also need to take into account the quick release cycle of Firefox. There are rumours that the UI will be changing soon (new theme) and I've seen the V12 beta, there are some significant changes to v11 [20:48] btw the new author of the Desktop chapter is writing his own manual for new users, he is a blogger [20:49] godbyk, I can definitely help out as an author if needed [20:49] c7p1, and LibreOffice? [20:49] pfjappaco: Thanks. [20:50] LibreOffice section doesn't contain anything atm [20:50] Regarding the Firefox release cycle, can we include a URL in that section leading the reader to a maintained web page documenting any changes [20:50] it just a paragraph for each tool of the suite [20:50] Okay, so it sounds like we should give the authors a month to write or rewrite their sections. Does that sound good to everyone? [20:50] unofficialresult: that would help [20:50] c7p1, ok, but who is taking care of that? [20:51] I think a month would be perfect. [20:51] nobody :) [20:51] sounds reasonable [20:51] and burning CD's? [20:51] anthony wanted to take it [20:51] A month will work [20:51] again nobody [20:51] Okay, so the first draft should be finished by the end of May. [20:51] I'd be happy to help out on other sections but I'd like to get a feel for the whole process first before I over commit [20:51] i'll maintain them if nobody takes them [20:52] Then we'll give the editors and authors two weeks to edit their sections, proofreading, fixing formatting, etc.? [20:52] c7p1, great [20:52] That sounds good [20:53] godbyk: sound good [20:53] agree [20:53] sounds good [20:53] Okay. [20:53] Would it be possible to assign editors to chapters early? [20:53] so they can form a team [20:53] btw, the author of the Hardware chapter told me that he would be able to contribute after 11 of May [20:53] I don't want to jump the gun but someone is going to have to take me through the admin process of actually submitting and managing sections. [20:54] I am not sure what exactly is the role of an editor? Can someone explain please? [20:54] KevQuirk, you can ask for help when needed, also via the list [20:54] Then we'll take, let's say, a week to open it up to the public for proofreading and comments. Half a week to incorporate any last-minute changes. And then we can publish it (which usually takes me a few days). How's that sound? [20:55] Coolio [20:55] bsvelan_, I think it is important that editors read the chapter and make corrections/suggestions if necessary [20:55] KevQuirk: we can discuss it at the end of the meeting. I'll send a mail to the list for this purpose, say it a FAQ for authors [20:55] godbyk, sounds good [20:56] hannie: thanks..i can help if you need someone [20:56] godbyk, excellent [20:56] Ok, I don't know what you mean by 'the list' though. [20:56] sorry, i mean mailing list [20:56] bsvelan_, we'll add you to the list of editors [20:56] Ahhhhh with you now [20:56] sorry [20:57] my pleaseure, hannie [20:57] *pleasure [20:58] Okay, how does this look for a release schedule? [20:58] May 31 – First draft completed: authors have updated and written new content; screenshots are in place. [20:58] June 15 – Editors have edited and proofread content. [20:58] June 22 – Release a draft for public comment and proofreading for one week. Incorporate changes as they are suggested. [20:58] June 27 – Final draft is complete and all last-minute changes have been made. [20:58] June 30 -– The final PDF is released on our website and printed copies can be purchased via lulu.com. [20:58] fine [20:58] good [20:58] Sounds great [20:58] should we make an exception for the hardware chapte? [20:59] all good with me [20:59] *chapter [20:59] hannie: What's going on with the hardware chapter? [20:59] One thing though, I will be unavailable the last one or two weeks of June, just so everybody knows [20:59] i'll contach the author to see if he needs a co-author or if he'll make it by his own [20:59] he can only start on may 11 [21:00] hannie: Ah, I see. We'll have to see how that goes, I guess. Hopefully we won't have to change much in that chapter. Or perhaps we can get a second author to assist? [21:00] yap, i'll talk with him and i'll inform you if we need a second author [21:00] I'll send this schedule to the mailing list for comments and objections before we finalize it. [21:00] c7p1 will contact him about this [21:00] c7p1: Thanks. [21:01] Anything else we need to talk about re: the release schedule? [21:01] godbyk, are you going to publish this timeline on LP? [21:01] looks like a good set of goals [21:01] Sorry guys, I have to go. I'll be sure to read the logs to see the topics I have missed [21:01] hannie: I will once it's finalized (i.e., assuming there are no objections on the mailing list). [21:02] unofficialresult: Thanks for coming! [21:02] unofficialresult, thank you for coming. Have a nice weekend [21:02] cya unofficialresult [21:02] see you Brian, thanks for coming [21:02] Okay, we'll move on to screenshots then. [21:02] #topic Screenshots [21:02] It was good to meet the new contributors and happy to see the returning guys [21:03] One of the problems that we encounter with screenshots is that we need them to be taken consistently using the proper resolution, color depth, file format, etc. [21:03] enjoy your weekend unofficialresult [21:03] We also need to handle screenshots for all of the translated editions. [21:03] Originally, we have a couple people write a program called Quickshot that helped immensely with this. [21:04] http://ubuntu-manual.org/quickshot [21:04] would it be better to have a dedicated team for screenshots? [21:04] could quickshot be updated? [21:04] Quickshot would walk you through the screenshot-taking process and ensure that everything was consistent and proper. [21:04] Unfortunately, our two Quickshot developers found themselves busy with college and other things and haven't been around for a while. [21:05] godbyk, do you think we can ask them for help [21:05] So I guess the first question is: Do we think it's worthwhile trying to resurrect Quickshot? (That is, find new developers for it.) [21:05] hannie: I can email them and ask. [21:05] I mean help those who want to take over [21:06] hannie: I don't know of anyone who's expressed interest in taking over Quickshot yet. [21:06] Personally, I liked Quickshot and thought that it did a pretty good job. It could use a rewrite to make it run a bit more smoothly, but it made it easy for one or two people to take all the screenshots in a short period of time. [21:07] ok, but before we find someone we need to know if the developers can help [21:07] If we need Quickshot in a few weeks, it may not be good to ask them to revive it on such short notice [21:07] hannie: Right. But first we have to figure out if we want to bother with Quickshot at all or just take the screenshots manually as we have been for the past few releases. [21:07] ajmontag, very true [21:08] godbyk, yes, maybe that is better [21:08] ajmontag: Right. I don't think we'll have Quickshot working for us during this cycle. But we could get it running for the next cycle (12.10). [21:08] To be clear: Reviving Quickshot would be a 12.10 goal, but we'd need to get developers to start working on it soon. [21:09] But authors still need good instructions on how to make the screenshots manually [21:09] hannie: For 12.04, yes. [21:09] Here, let's break it down into a few questions: [21:09] well I have to leave, nice to meet you all! [21:09] 1. Do we want to try to revive Quickshot for 12.10? [21:09] godbyk, is it possible to write instructions on the website? [21:10] ajmontag: Thanks for coming, ajmontag. [21:10] see you ajmontag thanks for coming [21:10] thanks ajmontag have a good weekend [21:10] cya ajmontag [21:11] godbyk, you can put that on the TODO list (quickshot for 12.10) [21:12] hannie: Okay, but if we do want to use Quickshot for 12.10, we need to start finding developers now instead of waiting until then. [21:12] godbyk, any idea if it will be a lot of work to updat it? [21:12] As for screenshots for 12.04, it sounds like we need to write instructions on how to take them (resolution, color depth, file format, etc.) and how to crop them. [21:12] i agree [21:12] hannie: I'm not sure. [21:13] hannie: I expect so. [21:13] +1 godbyk [21:13] Alright people, I need to go. I will read the logs later. [21:13] hannie: I saw on the ubuntu-docs mailing list a while back that they were discussing translated screenshots, too. I think Quickshot could be quite useful to their team as well. [21:13] bsvelan_: Okay, thanks for coming! [21:13] bsvelan_, see you, and thanks for coming [21:13] No problem, godbyk [21:14] thanks for coming bsvelan_ see you [21:14] godbyk, yes that is interesting [21:14] cya bsvelan_ [21:14] see you later, c7p1, hannie and kereltis [21:14] Sorry everybody, I have to go as well, keep me posted on how I can help out! Thanks again to all of you for all the great work you do [21:15] See you later, pfjappaco. [21:15] see you Paco :) thanks for coming [21:15] cya pfjappaco [21:15] bye pfjappaco see you [21:15] hannie, c7p1: I can write instructions for taking the screenshots and post them to the website if you like. [21:15] I'll need to go soon guys. I've been on the launchpad site a subscribed to receive emails when bugs are logged. Does this mean I'm on the mailing list now? [21:15] godbyk, that would be so good if you want to do that. Many, many thanks in advance [21:16] Initially, I think it'd be a good idea to have the authors to take the screenshots since they know what they want the screenshot to show. But if we need to have one or two people retake all the screenshots afterward to ensure they're consistent, then that's okay. [21:16] KevQuirk: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual [21:16] KevQuirk: There's a mailing list that's separate from the bug list. [21:16] KevQuirk, hope you enjoyed it. See you [21:16] KevQuirk: Look at the bottom left (I think). [21:17] there is a section Mailing list at the end of the page, with a subscribe button [21:17] cya KevQuirk [21:17] did i sent you wrong mail ? [21:18] godbyk, agree with what you said about autors taking screenshots [21:18] I've done it now. Thanks [21:18] godbyk, do you want me to write something about this on the list? [21:19] hannie: The meeting minutes? [21:19] no, about authors taking their own screenshots and how to do it [21:19] hannie: Ah, that'd be a good idea. [21:19] I will write about the first part and refer to the site for instructions, ok? [21:20] Right guys I'm off sorry. I'll email any more questions I have to the mailing list. Nice to meet you all gents. [21:20] The author's screenshots don't have to be the perfect size/format/etc. as long as we have one or two people who can take good screenshots later. [21:20] See you later, KevQuirk. [21:20] KevQuirk, cya [21:20] cya KevQuirk [21:21] ok, I am satisfied about the screenshot subject [21:22] Okay, it looks like that was the last item on the agenda. [21:22] Is there any other business? [21:22] #topic Any other business [21:22] don't think so [21:22] I only want to ask something about the code after the meeting [21:23] after the meeting will have to talk about the tasks, i mean the mails to be sent to the list [21:23] Okay, if there's nothing else, then we'll adjourn. [21:23] #endmeeting [21:23] Meeting ended Sat Apr 21 21:23:37 2012 UTC. [21:23] Minutes (wiki): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-04-21-20.08.moin.txt [21:23] Minutes (html): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-04-21-20.08.html [21:23] Thanks for coming everyone. [21:23] I'll post the minutes to the mailing list shortly. [21:23] Thanks guys [21:23] thank you [21:24] thanks all of you [21:25] hannie, godbyk: we'll have to write a mail that will help the new authors understand what they are going to face, what we expect for them, how they will work etc [21:25] c7p1: Agreed. [21:25] do you have time to do it now ? [21:25] ok, I have to go, have a great weekend everyone :) [21:25] c7p1 yes [21:25] have a great weekend Che, thanks for coming ! [21:25] c7p1: Perhaps we should create a short 'getting started / welcome new author' PDF that explains everything and points them to various resources? (similarly for editors and other job types) [21:26] c7p1: I have time now. [21:26] bye kereltis [21:26] that would be ideal [21:26] Before I forget: hannie, thanks for all the edits to the website. I'll incorporate those changes today. [21:26] Should we start a pad and work on it there? [21:26] more work for you, helas :( [21:26] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/WelcomeAuthors [21:27] c7p1: Always one step ahead of me! :) [21:27] hehe [21:27] i was playing with it before, as Kev asked some info [21:27] c7p1, godbyk how about a shared document where we can write a mail together [21:28] We could also add all of this stuff to the style guide. [21:28] aw, pad is fine too [21:28] When I originally wrote the style guide, I tried to have a chapter for authors, one for editors, one for translators, etc. [21:28] i've some material for the Editors of translated editions too [21:28] Most of the style guide so far is just LaTeX-related stuff, though. (It was based on a handout I created for one of those learning seminars we did eons ago.) [21:29]